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AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

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Who wins Al MVP?

Cabrera
11
52%
Trout
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Total votes : 21

Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:05 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Confusing "lazy" argument with easy.


No.

Lazy.

Answer my question and we can talk.

Hypothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?

Same numbers as above but Miggy is a DH only- Does Triple Crown still mean MVP there?

Miggy is first Triple Crown Winner since 1967 and Verlander wins 27 games on that same team. Still Miggy?


Yes. He is still the MVP.

You can add all the made up scenarios and whatnot. This year it's still Miggy. No question.

"If the moon exploded and made gravity less on west coast and Trout hits 95 HRs, but Miggy hits 50 in normal gravity, who IS MVP NOW?".
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:12 pm

The Angels were 6-14 before Trout was called up. Since then, 83-57; that's a .592 winning percentage compared to .544 for the Tigers with Cabrera for the entire season. With a .592 winning percentage over 162 games, the Angels would be a 95-win team, good for 3rd best in the majors and the AL's best team.


There is zero question who helped their team more this year.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:14 pm

One team is making the playoffs, the other isn't.

Trout can enjoy his RotY.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:13 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:The Angels were 6-14 before Trout was called up. Since then, 83-57; that's a .592 winning percentage compared to .544 for the Tigers with Cabrera for the entire season. With a .592 winning percentage over 162 games, the Angels would be a 95-win team, good for 3rd best in the majors and the AL's best team.


There is zero question who helped their team more this year.


So, Mike Trout made Albert Pujols gets comfortable with his surroundings and started hitting like the Albert of the last 10 years? Man, dude is good.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:18 pm

Defense is about 5% of the game.
Base running is about 5% of the game.

Which is one of many reasons those stats are flawed.

Take an OF. Most of the really good defensive OF are probably fast. Well, since speed and defense make up about 2/3 of WAR, it will always rate those players higher. Too bad that is not the way the game is played anymore.

Vote for Trout. Fine by me. Incorrect but fine.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:46 pm

As an aside, I would recommend those who think Jason Kipnis has PLAYA potential, as soon as he gets over some early career struggles.

Jason Kipnis is 25.

Miggy Cabrera started this season at 28.

Trout is 20.

PLAYAS aren't learning the game at 25. They are already on their way.

Back to the point, way too many stats in baseball, whether you like them or not. This thread is evidence of this. Cherry picking a few of the several zillion stats on each guy to form your argument can be done easily.

Bottom line for me, as Pup alludes to offense trumps speed and defense for me. And, please, I'm not saying it doesn't matter, especially at key positions. But make Jack Hanahan really fast. Who ya want playin third for you, fast Jack or Miggy. Who you gonna win more games with? By a ton. Have Fast Jack go errorless all season, and give him 60 bags. Who ya gonna win with more? By a ton. And Hanahan isn't Trout, but the point is, give a stiff speed and defense (which literally hundreds of minore leaguers that will never make the show posess) and he's still a stiff. Give him the ability to RAKE and you've got yourself a difference maker. The difference in value is pretty large.

Anyways, I got no problem with either guy, it's not like the other guy will suffer a worse jobbing then we've ever seen before. It's just "Neat" "Cute" and "Cool" isn't the way anyone should be describing the Triple Crown.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:34 pm

Jeezus Pup, defense and speed make up 2/3 of WAR the same way that carrots and broccoli make up 2/3 of John Kruk's diet. Just because it's measured doesn't make it equal.

And LP, thanks for pointing out that Miggy is better than Jack Hannahan, because that's exactly what we're talking about.

Back to the point, way too many stats in baseball, whether you like them or not. This thread is evidence of this. Cherry picking a few of the several zillion stats on each guy to form your argument can be done easily.


Agree, we should all just cherry pick Avg, HR, and RBI...the only important ones.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:50 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Jeezus Pup, defense and speed make up 2/3 of WAR the same way that carrots and broccoli make up 2/3 of John Kruk's diet. Just because it's measured doesn't make it equal.

And LP, thanks for pointing out that Miggy is better than Jack Hannahan, because that's exactly what we're talking about.

Back to the point, way too many stats in baseball, whether you like them or not. This thread is evidence of this. Cherry picking a few of the several zillion stats on each guy to form your argument can be done easily.


Agree, we should all just cherry pick Avg, HR, and RBI...the only important ones.


Pick whichever stats you'd like, I don't care.

Give it to Trout, I don't care.

Calling the Triple Crown "cute" is assinine. But truthfully, I guess I really don't care about that either.

And there are posts on this very site insinuating the Tribe would be OK with Hanahan and Detroit would be in trouble cause Fat Miggy will be a hack at third. Just sayin'.

Carry on.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:07 pm

Winning the Triple Crown does not automatically make one the MVP. It's a hell of an accomplishment, to be sure. I think some of the Mike Trout backers are diminishing the Triple Crown while trying to support Trout. (Not referring to anyone on this thread, as I haven't read it.) Hell, the Triple Crown winners list is a Who's Who of the Hall of Fame. No slouches win it.

But Ted Williams won the Triple Crown without taking home the MVP twice.

Trout is better than Cabrera at just about everything except power, and he ain't far off in that.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:10 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:One team is making the playoffs, the other isn't.


It sure ain't the team with a better record in a better division.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:59 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Winning the Triple Crown does not automatically make one the MVP. It's a hell of an accomplishment, to be sure. I think some of the Mike Trout backers are diminishing the Triple Crown while trying to support Trout. (Not referring to anyone on this thread, as I haven't read it.) Hell, the Triple Crown winners list is a Who's Who of the Hall of Fame. No slouches win it.

But Ted Williams won the Triple Crown without taking home the MVP twice.

Trout is better than Cabrera at just about everything except power, and he ain't far off in that.


I did not realize that Williams had won the triple crown twice, but I know on one occasion, a Boston voter left him entirely off the ballot (not even in the top ten), costing him the MVP. Hence, as pointed out earlier, in the end, it is mainly a popularity contest.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:38 pm

Miggy wins. Let's see anyone put up those numbers while fighting a hangover on a daily basis.

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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:27 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Miggy wins. Let's see anyone put up those numbers while fighting a hangover on a daily basis.

Why run when you can trot?


That is a strong point
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:38 pm

Cabrera goes 2 for 3 tonight with an RBI before getting pulled in the 5th. BA is .331 now...virtually unreachable by Trout who entered the night at .325

Only Hamilton has a chance to break the crown as Cabrera has all but locked up AVE and RBI titles.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:00 pm

Bigfist wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Winning the Triple Crown does not automatically make one the MVP. It's a hell of an accomplishment, to be sure. I think some of the Mike Trout backers are diminishing the Triple Crown while trying to support Trout. (Not referring to anyone on this thread, as I haven't read it.) Hell, the Triple Crown winners list is a Who's Who of the Hall of Fame. No slouches win it.

But Ted Williams won the Triple Crown without taking home the MVP twice.

Trout is better than Cabrera at just about everything except power, and he ain't far off in that.


I did not realize that Williams had won the triple crown twice, but I know on one occasion, a Boston voter left him entirely off the ballot (not even in the top ten), costing him the MVP. Hence, as pointed out earlier, in the end, it is mainly a popularity contest.


Williams, Bonds and Belle all lost MVP's based on their extremely high BDTAE rating.

Bigger dicks than anyone else.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:51 pm

How about they make up a new award called the "Best rookie of the year ever" and give it to Trout.

Then he won't feel as bad in the offseason where he'll get a fat new contract and endorsements out the ass.

MVP - Miggy
Best rookie of the year ever - Trout

Everyone wins. :clap:

And not that it matters anymore but we could've drafted Trout.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:14 pm

leadpipe wrote:As an aside, I would recommend those who think Jason Kipnis has PLAYA potential, as soon as he gets over some early career struggles.

Jason Kipnis is 25.

Miggy Cabrera started this season at 28.

Trout is 20.

PLAYAS aren't learning the game at 25. They are already on their way.


This isn't a fair point. Unless you bypass college or go the JUCO route, you cannot get drafted until after your junior season. Kipnis wasn't drafted out of HS, so he had to go the college route. Transferred from Kentucky to Arizona State. Didn't sign in '08 when drafted. Signed in '09. In the show by '11, including a position change.

Fat Miggy was signed at 17 as an international free agent. Made MLB debut at 20.

Trout opted not to go the college route. Drafted in '09, like Kipnis, came up around same time Kipnis did in 2011.

If you want to make the argument that Kipnis isn't as good as those two, that's fine, but you're leaving out some pretty important details by just pointing out age. He simply had a different path to the Majors, one that took more time because he chose to go to college.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:47 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
leadpipe wrote:As an aside, I would recommend those who think Jason Kipnis has PLAYA potential, as soon as he gets over some early career struggles.

Jason Kipnis is 25.

Miggy Cabrera started this season at 28.

Trout is 20.

PLAYAS aren't learning the game at 25. They are already on their way.


This isn't a fair point. Unless you bypass college or go the JUCO route, you cannot get drafted until after your junior season. Kipnis wasn't drafted out of HS, so he had to go the college route. Transferred from Kentucky to Arizona State. Didn't sign in '08 when drafted. Signed in '09. In the show by '11, including a position change.

Fat Miggy was signed at 17 as an international free agent. Made MLB debut at 20.

Trout opted not to go the college route. Drafted in '09, like Kipnis, came up around same time Kipnis did in 2011.

If you want to make the argument that Kipnis isn't as good as those two, that's fine, but you're leaving out some pretty important details by just pointing out age. He simply had a different path to the Majors, one that took more time because he chose to go to college.


Actually it's a very fair point, because a pretty common characteristic of star players in this league is that they are not going through growing pains at 25, they are already on their way.

Look at the Brauns, Pedroias, Jeters, Miggys, Pujols, Holidays, Fielders and the like from this era - then look at their seasons at the age of 25.

You can do this for basically any decade, and you'll find, as a rule, that the superstars came up in their very early 20's, and they were already stars by 25. Some exceptions to be sure, but for sure exceptions.

There's a difference betwen solid major leaguer and PLAYA. So, if it's not fair to compare Kipnis to those guys, it's doesn't make sense to argue he's gonna become a playa, which many here have alluded.

I like Kipnis. Hell, here he's real important. But those waiting on him to become a perrenial all-star are probably going to be disappointed.

And I understand your point about college, but the fact of the matter is, if you;re a playa, they come and get you, wherever on GGE you might be.

By the way, this is the crux of my arguments on this board with "prospect guys" who are excited about 27 year olds in the system. At 27 you aren't a prospect, you are simply not good.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:29 am

leadpipe wrote:Actually it's a very fair point, because a pretty common characteristic of star players in this league is that they are not going through growing pains at 25, they are already on their way.

Look at the Brauns, Pedroias, Jeters, Miggys, Pujols, Holidays, Fielders and the like from this era - then look at their seasons at the age of 25.

You can do this for basically any decade, and you'll find, as a rule, that the superstars came up in their very early 20's, and they were already stars by 25. Some exceptions to be sure, but for sure exceptions.

There's a difference betwen solid major leaguer and PLAYA. So, if it's not fair to compare Kipnis to those guys, it's doesn't make sense to argue he's gonna become a playa, which many here have alluded.

I like Kipnis. Hell, here he's real important. But those waiting on him to become a perrenial all-star are probably going to be disappointed.

And I understand your point about college, but the fact of the matter is, if you;re a playa, they come and get you, wherever on GGE you might be.

By the way, this is the crux of my arguments on this board with "prospect guys" who are excited about 27 year olds in the system. At 27 you aren't a prospect, you are simply not good.


I don't see where anybody has been naive enough to think that Kipnis is ever going to be comparable to the top 25 position players in baseball. Admittedly, I haven't read a lot of the bullshit that's been posted around here the last couple of months, but nobody's saying Kipnis will be the next Robbie Cano or Miguel Cabrera. If you're saying it as a vehicle to compare him to "perennial all-stars", I see that point.

One of the things that your definition of "PLAYA" has in common is that they hit for power. With the exception of Jeter in your list above, those are perennial 30+ HR guys. Kipnis will never hit 30 HR. His size is probably why he wasn't drafted out of high school.

I'll grant you that the Indians have zero PLAYAS, at least by the definition you're going with. As a result, Kipnis probably looks better than he actually is. And that's fine. I like the kid and I'd build around him because of his talent and his work ethic. He's infectious on a team that cares.

He may make an All-Star team or two, but no, he won't be a perennial all-star.

The whole point I was trying to make is that Kipnis spent as much time in the minors as Trout and Cabrera did. The age issue isn't his fault. Trout played 286 games, Kipnis 254, Miggy 368. The amazing thing is that in 368 games, Fat Miggy hit 28 minor league home runs. He's surpassed that every year but one as a full-time Major Leaguer.

Kipnis just doesn't have an elite ceiling.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:38 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Actually it's a very fair point, because a pretty common characteristic of star players in this league is that they are not going through growing pains at 25, they are already on their way.

Look at the Brauns, Pedroias, Jeters, Miggys, Pujols, Holidays, Fielders and the like from this era - then look at their seasons at the age of 25.

You can do this for basically any decade, and you'll find, as a rule, that the superstars came up in their very early 20's, and they were already stars by 25. Some exceptions to be sure, but for sure exceptions.

There's a difference betwen solid major leaguer and PLAYA. So, if it's not fair to compare Kipnis to those guys, it's doesn't make sense to argue he's gonna become a playa, which many here have alluded.

I like Kipnis. Hell, here he's real important. But those waiting on him to become a perrenial all-star are probably going to be disappointed.

And I understand your point about college, but the fact of the matter is, if you;re a playa, they come and get you, wherever on GGE you might be.

By the way, this is the crux of my arguments on this board with "prospect guys" who are excited about 27 year olds in the system. At 27 you aren't a prospect, you are simply not good.


I don't see where anybody has been naive enough to think that Kipnis is ever going to be comparable to the top 25 position players in baseball. Admittedly, I haven't read a lot of the bullshit that's been posted around here the last couple of months, but nobody's saying Kipnis will be the next Robbie Cano or Miguel Cabrera. If you're saying it as a vehicle to compare him to "perennial all-stars", I see that point.

One of the things that your definition of "PLAYA" has in common is that they hit for power. With the exception of Jeter in your list above, those are perennial 30+ HR guys. Kipnis will never hit 30 HR. His size is probably why he wasn't drafted out of high school.

I'll grant you that the Indians have zero PLAYAS, at least by the definition you're going with. As a result, Kipnis probably looks better than he actually is. And that's fine. I like the kid and I'd build around him because of his talent and his work ethic. He's infectious on a team that cares.

He may make an All-Star team or two, but no, he won't be a perennial all-star.

The whole point I was trying to make is that Kipnis spent as much time in the minors as Trout and Cabrera did. The age issue isn't his fault. Trout played 286 games, Kipnis 254, Miggy 368. The amazing thing is that in 368 games, Fat Miggy hit 28 minor league home runs. He's surpassed that every year but one as a full-time Major Leaguer.

Kipnis just doesn't have an elite ceiling.


No real definition of a PLAYA, besides the fact you know it when you see it.

Power has little to do with it, though many PLAYAS have it. Kenny Lofton was a PLAYA here the first time around.

A guy that you can bat third or fourth without covering your eyes. A game changer. A guy in the line-up the other team needs to account for. A guy that can carry a team through a rough stretch. A guy you can give the ball to every fifth day and feel confident you're going to win.

Again, I didn't draw Kipnis into these comparisons. Others did.

And you're better off building around PLAYAS with the guys that are "infectious" and have "work ethic," Cause you can win with a bunch of talent, you ain't winning with a bunch of work ethic.

Lastly, I don't think there is "fault" with Kipnis age, but you gotta understand there was a reason the Marlins went and got a 20 year old to help turn their season around - cause, again, when you see a PLAYA, you know it. And there was a reason Kipnis was doing what he was doing at age 20. And this was my whole point to those who argued Kipnis was going to be a star they could build around - If he was that player, we wouldn't be explaining "inexperience" or any other bullshit excuses. We would KNOW it by age 25.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:38 pm

Posnanski weighs in (as we all knew he would), and it's another example of why I think he's the best around. I love his writing and his arguments. He has a way of taking a few different stats that are newer and therefore less familiar and comfortable, and effectively conveying their simplicity and meaning, without coming off like a condescending egghead.

Anyway...

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-triple-trout.html#more
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:00 pm

I'm with pup & Lead.

Nothing hard about this choice at all. Cabrera.

Plus his season would translate to a way better strat card.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:06 pm

Suddenly, I've never been more sure it should be Trout (mooning)
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:09 pm

I'm hunkered down for the winter, with 10 teams for $130.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:19 pm

Debate gets settled here shortly. Personally, I think they're both worthy and won't have a problem with either guy being the winner.

I think it's an interesting vote solely based on the perception of new vs. old stats among the voters and the baseball media community.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby pup » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:22 pm

I vote for Miggy (in case anyone didn't read through the thread ;-) ;) :wink: ).

I would be more OK with Trout winning MVP than I was with King Felix being awarded the Cy Young previously.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby statmasta » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:14 pm

If you don't care about defense and base running, then Cabrera's your guy. If you care about those things, then there's only one contender for the MVP: Mike Trout.

Triple Crown is overrated. Years Miguel Cabrera's stats this season wouldn't have won the triple crown:

2010, 2009, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, etc.

So Cabrera's being rewarded because...Jose Bautista's injury gave him the HR crown? Really? A down offensive season (in terms of big indivual numbers) is the reason Cabrera is MVP? Nonsense.

Trout's season is historically great in any context. Cabrera's is only great in the context of this particular season (and his defense and baserunning still blow).
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:51 pm

I also would vote for Trout. But let's not start acting like Cabrerra's season was somehow anything close to "not great". Cabrerra's season was effing insane. Dude is a monster and it will be far from a tragedy when he wins it, just because I liked a different guy's incrediable season a little bit better.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby statmasta » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:30 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I also would vote for Trout. But let's not start acting like Cabrerra's season was somehow anything close to "not great". Cabrerra's season was effing insane. Dude is a monster and it will be far from a tragedy when he wins it, just because I liked a different guy's incrediable season a little bit better.

It was great, but not historically so on its own.

The only thing that makes it historic is the fact that the performances of his peers allowed Cabrera to win the Triple Crown. Cabrera's numbers in a vaccuum are great, agreed, but they're not all-time special. For example, our own Travis Hafner was on pace to hit .308 with 50 HRs and 140 RBIs in 2004 before CJ Wilson broke his hand. If Hafner finishes out that final month, he wouldn't have come anywhere close to winning MVP (and rightly so). Does the fact that Cabrera plays third base poorly instead of DH'ing and played during a season without other great seasons (in terms of massive numbers in the traditional statistical categories) mean he goes from a non-MVP candidate like Pronk to MVP winner? It all seems very silly to me.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:02 pm

statmasta wrote:If you don't care about defense and base running, then Cabrera's your guy. If you care about those things, then there's only one contender for the MVP: Mike Trout.

Triple Crown is overrated. Years Miguel Cabrera's stats this season wouldn't have won the triple crown:

2010, 2009, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, etc.

So Cabrera's being rewarded because...Jose Bautista's injury gave him the HR crown? Really? A down offensive season (in terms of big indivual numbers) is the reason Cabrera is MVP? Nonsense.

Trout's season is historically great in any context. Cabrera's is only great in the context of this particular season (and his defense and baserunning still blow).


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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:14 pm

I was still trying to figure out what running Travis Hafner's eight year old numbers through the Duncanator has to do with anything.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:36 pm

statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I also would vote for Trout. But let's not start acting like Cabrerra's season was somehow anything close to "not great". Cabrerra's season was effing insane. Dude is a monster and it will be far from a tragedy when he wins it, just because I liked a different guy's incrediable season a little bit better.

It was great, but not historically so on its own.

The only thing that makes it historic is the fact that the performances of his peers allowed Cabrera to win the Triple Crown. Cabrera's numbers in a vaccuum are great, agreed, but they're not all-time special. For example, our own Travis Hafner was on pace to hit .308 with 50 HRs and 140 RBIs in 2004 before CJ Wilson broke his hand. If Hafner finishes out that final month, he wouldn't have come anywhere close to winning MVP (and rightly so). Does the fact that Cabrera plays third base poorly instead of DH'ing and played during a season without other great seasons (in terms of massive numbers in the traditional statistical categories) mean he goes from a non-MVP candidate like Pronk to MVP winner? It all seems very silly to me.


Ok, I'll try to respond instead of being a typical dick like my previous post.

I don't think the performance of Cabreras peers make s season great. I thnk he got there all on his own, triple crown or not. I'm not sure how anyone could see it any other way.

And I'm not sure what "all time special" has to do with it. You don't get those every season, obviously, so it shouldnt preclude Cabrera winning MVP. And I'm not sure how many people here are arguing that it is all time special. But it was really effing good.

And yes, if Hafner finished those 40 or so more game (I assume you meant 2006) with those numbers he absolutely should have been in the discussion for MVP that year. Even as a DH. Still not sure it would have been enou to beat Mauer (or Sizemore for tht matter). But yeah, it would have been an incredible season.

And m not sure why you are using the lack of great seasons from other players this year as somehow a reason to NOT vote for Miggy, which seems dumb...but that's what it sounds like from your post.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:53 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I also would vote for Trout. But let's not start acting like Cabrerra's season was somehow anything close to "not great". Cabrerra's season was effing insane. Dude is a monster and it will be far from a tragedy when he wins it, just because I liked a different guy's incrediable season a little bit better.

It was great, but not historically so on its own.

The only thing that makes it historic is the fact that the performances of his peers allowed Cabrera to win the Triple Crown. Cabrera's numbers in a vaccuum are great, agreed, but they're not all-time special. For example, our own Travis Hafner was on pace to hit .308 with 50 HRs and 140 RBIs in 2004 before CJ Wilson broke his hand. If Hafner finishes out that final month, he wouldn't have come anywhere close to winning MVP (and rightly so). Does the fact that Cabrera plays third base poorly instead of DH'ing and played during a season without other great seasons (in terms of massive numbers in the traditional statistical categories) mean he goes from a non-MVP candidate like Pronk to MVP winner? It all seems very silly to me.


Ok, I'll try to respond instead of being a typical dick like my previous post.

I don't think the performance of Cabreras peers make s season great. I thnk he got there all on his own, triple crown or not. I'm not sure how anyone could see it any other way.

And I'm not sure what "all time special" has to do with it. You don't get those every season, obviously, so it shouldnt preclude Cabrera winning MVP. And I'm not sure how many people here are arguing that it is all time special. But it was really effing good.

And yes, if Hafner finished those 40 or so more game (I assume you meant 2006) with those numbers he absolutely should have been in the discussion for MVP that year. Even as a DH. Still not sure it would have been enou to beat Mauer (or Sizemore for tht matter). But yeah, it would have been an incredible season.

And m not sure why you are using the lack of great seasons from other players this year as somehow a reason to NOT vote for Miggy, which seems dumb...but that's what it sounds like from your post.


That's why it's not the MVFASS (Most Valuable for all-time special seasons)

It's the MVP for 2012.

And extrapolating anyones numbers over any stretch is to the point of why the Triple Crown rises above "neat" and other mundane words used to describe it. You don't win it by gettin' your numbers extrapolated - you get it by anwering the GD bell every night, which not too many people have been found capable of doing recently.

Look, again, Trouts the choice, great. They were probably both unfortunate to a degree they had to compete against each others seasons. But this downplaying of the Triple Crown as some sort of novelty act is ridiculous.

And the Triple Crown was his cause not one of his peers was able to hit 3 and a half, drop 45 bombs or drive in 160?

My favorite is that Cabrera's season was only great in the context of this particular season. Imagine waht a stiff he woulda been had he put up those numbers in 1976.

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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby pup » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Can't.

Even.

Respond.

To.

Statmasta of his own domain.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:45 am

pup wrote:Can't.

Even.

Respond.

To.

Statmasta of his own domain.



Stunning, no? Just how ignorant a given individual can appear to be?

Put your calculators away fellas.

Wasn't even close.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:54 am

I think that the point that he is trying to make is in the comparisons of the historical contexts between Trout's and Cabrera's seasons. Since Trout's season is among the all time greatest, I think he means that when you take Cabrera's numbers and put them against numbers in the past like people are doing with Trout's, those numbers are not historically great like Trout's are, So Cabrera didnt have as good a season as Trout did.

I think that is his point........I think. Its the most rational thing I could gleam from reading it.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:00 pm

Well...that was a circle jerk.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby ChoccoIndians » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:06 am

I have heard too many people say (Not necessarily on here) that the Triple Crown means Cabrera must win the MVP, I get angry when people say that. If he's the MVP he's the MVP, the triple crown doesn't necessarily mean you are the most valuable person in the league.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:33 pm

So if Josh Hamilton hits two more HRs this year, is Cabrera still the MVP?

Triple Crown argument is so stupid.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:39 pm

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:So if Josh Hamilton hits two more HRs this year, is Cabrera still the MVP?

Triple Crown argument is so stupid.


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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby statmasta » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:07 pm

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:So if Josh Hamilton hits two more HRs this year, is Cabrera still the MVP?

Triple Crown argument is so stupid.

this

Jeff Passan tears that argument apart here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees ... eason.html

There's more to the game than average, home runs, and runs batted in.

Defense matters. Base running matters. Trout was nearly as good of a hitter as Cabrera, and he was light years ahead in base running and defense. He's the best base runner in the league and the best defensive outfielder. Cabrera sure had one hell of a season, but he's still just the 2nd best player in the league. Is Cabrera the best hitter? Sure. Is he the best player? Absolutely not.
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