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AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

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Who wins Al MVP?

Cabrera
11
52%
Trout
10
48%
 
Total votes : 21

AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:01 am

Cabrera: .329/44/137 - 109 runs
Trout: .325/30/83 - 129 runs +48 SB and far, far better D. (and 60 less AB's)

-Note this is as of conclusion to Oct. 1st games-

Triple Crown wins it IMHO...but there is a very solid Trout argument. If I had to vote, I'd give it to Cabrera 'cause his team is in the postseason. But it really is a tie. No player has EVER posted those Trout numbers. Rook or otherwise.

Also lost in this is that this is the 1st reasonable chance I or pretty much any of us have ever seen at a Triple Crown. And the irony is that Trout is really the only guy that can break it (tho Hamilton could knock a few, but I would think he's resting this series).

Edit: Spelling
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:59 am

Why does the Tigers playing in the central division have anything to do with who is the MVP?
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Voting for Cabrera is basically saying that defense and baserunning are irrelevant. And honestly, the triple crown is a neat historic achivement, but hardly a measure of who's the best player in baseball. Trout in a landslide.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby swerb » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:04 am

My vote would go to Trout, without even thinking about it. He has clearly been the superior player overall. The offensive stats alone warrant Trout to me, and that's not even thinking about the fact that he is elite in center field and on the basepaths, two areas where Miggy is below average.

The whole "Detroit made the playoffs, and the Angels didn't" argument to me is nonsense. The Angels have the better record, and did so without playing 19 games against the Royals, Twins, Indians, and White Sox. If the Angels were in the AL Central, they'd have at least 94-95 wins and would have cruised to a division title.

Bottom line, Trout is the Most Valuable Player in the AL. The things he does at the top of the lineup, on the bases, in center field are a huge part of the game. Cabrera has had an amazing season offensively, clearly, and has obviously been very valuable to Detroit given the woes this year of everyone in their lineup not named Austin Jackson or Prince Fielder. But Trout to me has easily been the most vaulable.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:38 am

You are both (Al and Swerb) nuts.

If winning the Triple Crown is no more than a neat historical note, then what is 30/30 as a rookie?

This should not even be close. Especially in an era where everyone wants to tell me SB are bad baseball.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:56 am

Trout. Better all around numbers, but its his defense that tips it in his favor IMO.

I have never bought into the team has to make the playoffs argument so you can get the MVP. Just because your team didnt make the playoffs, doesn't make you any less valuable. You can still have a huge impact on your teams win total. I mean Jesus Christ, take Alex Rodriguez's numbers off the 2002 Texas Rangers, that has to drop their win total significantly. Possibly from middle of the pack to the bottom. Yet he loses to Miguel Tejada, who's team made the playoffs but whose numbers were not even close to A-roid's.


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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Toxicadam » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:58 am

I think this is one of the most interesting MVP races in recent memory. Here you literally have the 'old-school stats' (RBI/HR/AVG) versus the 'new school stats' (WAR/UZR/OPS+). One a perennial MVP candidate playing on a division winning team, the other a fresh rookie playing on a .500 team.

If this were 1997, Miggy would be the slam dunk pick and no one would think twice. But with teh advent of advanced metrics and the "re-appreciation" of well-rounded players coming back into vogue, Mike Trout is getting the lion share of support.

I have no problem with whomever wins. Both are worthy picks. It's a shame the MLB can't rig the votes to make it a tie.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:58 am

I like "advanced stats." I understand them. They have value.

But there comes times when the advcned stat guys invite criticism.

The Triple Crown is "Neat"? I heard Keith Law refer to it as "cute."

Triple. Fucking. Crown.

Look, vote for whomever the hell you want, but good holy Christ, this is the first Triple Crown winner most of us on this board have ever seen. And many of us are old. Stats guys are acting like it's as easy as knockin 3 doubles in a game.

And Pup is correct, I know RBI's apparently don't count now, but all of the sudden steals do?

And, by the way, people will use what fits the argument, cause if the Angels made the playoffs and the Tigers didn't.....

The essay on "Why Home Runs hurt your team" has got to be right around the corner.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby 1Perry » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:01 am

I'm glad I do not have to vote. How do you vote against someone winning the Triple Crown? On the other hand Trout has clearly been the better all around player.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:17 am

Defense...christ.

Better all around player? Miggy is the better hitter, better power, better at driving in runs. Almost as good at scoring runs. Trout is faster. Yippee.

Miggy
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=cabremi01&year=2012&t=b#clutc

Trout
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=troutmi01&year=2012&t=b#clutc

2 outs, RISP - Miggy -.420/1.211, Trout .286/.782
Late and close - Miggy - .337/1.040, Trout .277/.784
Team trailing - Miggy - .328/.986, Trout .308/.918
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:10 am

This just boils down to how you feel about the game. Do you just focus on hitting or the entire aspects of the game? As long as we're talking about reverential accomplishments such as the Triple Crown, it's worth pointing out that Trout is only the 3rd player to ever go 30/48 and he has a chance at 30/50. More than 4x as many guys have had a Triple Crown as have had a 30/50 so which is more impressive? The Triple Crown just because some sports writer ripped off the catchy name from horse racing 100 years ago? Gimme a break.

30/48. 2nd in OPS. 1st in steals. Best defensive player in the game at the hardest position. A WAR that is nearly 4.0 wins better than Cabrera (10.7 to 6.8 is just silly) Being a rookie doesn't even matter.

Trout is the better player. Who wins? You're guess is as good as mine.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:29 am

pup wrote:Defense...christ.

Better all around player? Miggy is the better hitter, better power, better at driving in runs. Almost as good at scoring runs. Trout is faster. Yippee.

Miggy
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=cabremi01&year=2012&t=b#clutc

Trout
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=troutmi01&year=2012&t=b#clutc

2 outs, RISP - Miggy -.420/1.211, Trout .286/.782
Late and close - Miggy - .337/1.040, Trout .277/.784
Team trailing - Miggy - .328/.986, Trout .308/.918


Look whos a stats guy all of a sudden.

Trout is a plus defender at a premium defensive position. Cabrera is a below-average defender at 3B. In addition to his SB, Trout takes more extra bases (1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home etc) than Cabrera is able to. If Trout was hitting 3rd or 4th in the Angels lineup, he'd be "better" at driving in runs.

Again, the triple crown is a really cool historical achivement. But it doesn't measure defense, doubles, triples, runs, walks or stolen bases. That's an awfully significant part of the game right there. It's a big deal and an impressive feat, but that alone does not an MVP make.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:54 am

Let's just see if he wins the 3Crwn. Then we can debate the numbers. And btw - he MUST play every game to earn it. Same with Trout.


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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:03 am

pup wrote:Defense...christ.

Better all around player? Miggy is the better hitter, better power, better at driving in runs.



Facing KC's Rotation, Cle's rotation, and Minnesota's Rotation 57 times will do that to a player
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:17 am

Pup is probably the youngest crotchety old geezer I've ever run across (and that's why I love the guy). And of course he pulled out stats to support his point. Because as much as he professes to dislike stats, it's impossible to make ANY baseball argument without them. He just likes different stats than some other people. You know, the inferior, less enlightening ones.

but he knows that. Pup absolutely knows that RBIs, moreso than many other stats, are less meaningful and WHY they are. But he stand by that kind of thing for some reasons I can't really understand myself.

And, no matter how many times he says something awesome like "clogging the basepaths" he will never convince me that he doesn't actually get this stuff and secretly agree. Because he will never convince me that he's a moron, no matter how hard he tries. ;-) ;) :wink:

gotribe31 wrote:
pup wrote:Defense...christ.

Better all around player? Miggy is the better hitter, better power, better at driving in runs. Almost as good at scoring runs. Trout is faster. Yippee.

Miggy
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=cabremi01&year=2012&t=b#clutc

Trout
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=troutmi01&year=2012&t=b#clutc

2 outs, RISP - Miggy -.420/1.211, Trout .286/.782
Late and close - Miggy - .337/1.040, Trout .277/.784
Team trailing - Miggy - .328/.986, Trout .308/.918


Look whos a stats guy all of a sudden.

Trout is a plus defender at a premium defensive position. Cabrera is a below-average defender at 3B. In addition to his SB, Trout takes more extra bases (1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home etc) than Cabrera is able to. If Trout was hitting 3rd or 4th in the Angels lineup, he'd be "better" at driving in runs.

Again, the triple crown is a really cool historical achivement. But it doesn't measure defense, doubles, triples, runs, walks or stolen bases. That's an awfully significant part of the game right there. It's a big deal and an impressive feat, but that alone does not an MVP make.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:21 am

I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:22 am

I think it is clearly Trout. His season is simply the best one this year. Everyone has already hashed out the "why".

I think what's unusual is that the Triple Crown is such a rare and unusual feet. And I think we all understand that it would be impossible for a player having a bad year to win the triple crown.

So, while it is unusual for a player to win the TC, I think it's even more unusual for that player to legitimately not be the MVP. But that's what happened.

It doesn't mean that Miggy isn't an in credible player. He's a HOF player having one of his best years. But if Hamilton hits 2 more HRs and Miggy misses the TC is his season now worse?
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:25 am

peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.


C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:29 am

motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.


C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.



Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively ;-) ;) :wink: . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:48 am

peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.


C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.



Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively ;-) ;) :wink: . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.


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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:52 am

No. He's a dim bulb who's heavily dependent on emoticons and smilies.

My fault for assuming too much. ;-) ;) :wink: :nanner: :hide: ::doh::


gotribe31 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.


C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.



Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively ;-) ;) :wink: . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.


Do you think Mother gets that you were being facetious yet?
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:53 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Facing KC's Rotation, Cle's rotation, and Minnesota's Rotation 57 times will do that to a player



Not necessarily...

Opp OBP OPS
Bal .607 1.516
Bos .413 1.169
CHW .418 1.057
Cle .388 1.110
KC .333 .733
LAA .294 .727

Min .430 1.162
NYY .372 1.167
Oak .515 1.377
Sea .160 .535
TB .533 1.173
Tex .455 .981
Tor .318 .730


Luckily he doesn't play in the AL East, who knows what kind of numbers he'd put up? ;-) ;) :wink:
Granted it's 48-50 less AB's vs the rest of the AL but the guys been locked in against nearly everyone this season.

Don't know who should be MVP, it's too close to call but don't discount Cabrera's numbers based on the division he plays in.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:57 am

gotribe31 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.


C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.



Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively ;-) ;) :wink: . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.


Do you think Mother gets that you were being facetious yet?


It is my belief that he was being only half facetious. Stradling the fence, as it were, while deciding on which side to jump down.

You know how Peek is, no strong opinions, afraid to commit to anything.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:00 pm

I'd like to jump down from a curb and land on your head. I'd be fully committed to that.

motherscratcher wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I remember the year Mo Vaughn used defense and 6 more SBs to edge out Albert Belle for MVP despite having 8 less hits, 11 less HRs, 24 fewer 2Bs, scoring 23 fewer Runs and accumulating .128 less OPS.

It's a popularity contest and an arbitrary award based on the whims of the voters. I hope Trout wins just based on the fact he hasn't PROVEN himself to be a douchebag just yet.


C'mon, Trout isn't just "slightly" better defensively and on the bases than Miggy.



Apparently Vaughn wasn't just "slightly" better than AB defensively ;-) ;) :wink: . At least in the minds of whomever voted. Or there's simply an arbitrariness to the voting and personal feelings about a player creeps in. But that couldn't possibly be it.


Do you think Mother gets that you were being facetious yet?


It is my belief that he was being only half facetious. Stradling the fence, as it were, while deciding on which side to jump down.

You know how Peek is, no strong opinions, afraid to commit to anything.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:03 pm

Larvell Blanks wrote:
Don't know who should be MVP, it's too close to call but don't discount Cabrera's numbers based on the division he plays in.



Im not discounting his numbers, Im just saying it helped. Also those stats are scewed.

AB

Bal . 22
Bos . 41
CHW 72
Cle . 72
KC . 65
LAA 30
Min . 71
NYY . 39
Oak . 29
Sea . 24
TB . 25
Tex . 38
Tor 17

Of course those numbers you posted are huge, when you have smaller sample sizes that can happen, But IMO and my point is if he had 72 ab's against (which would create larger sample sizes and create less opportunities for statistical anomalies)rotataions like Oakland, Texas, and LAA his numbers would go down. Not by much, but it has definitely helps Miggy to play in our division.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:05 pm

peeker643 wrote:I'd like to jump down from a curb and land on your head. I'd be fully committed to that.


Make sure you use your good ankle

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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:05 pm

Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:06 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.


You have farts in your head
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:09 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.



Hypothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby swerb » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:12 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.



Hyothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?

Exactly.

And for the stat-heads (Pup) - let me know what it does to Trout's slugging % and OPS if you make all those singles with steals into doubles.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:12 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.



Hyothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?


Semantics.

The Triple Crown wins. Plus Trout can watch the MVP from home during the playoffs.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:17 pm

swerb wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.



Hyothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?

Exactly.

And for the stat-heads (Pup) - let me know what it does to Trout's slugging % and OPS if you make all those singles with steals into doubles.



And also how many more RBI he has if the Angels 8+9 reach base at the same rate as teh Tigers 1+2.

But, too be fair, we should also take into consideration how many runs Miggy saved with great defense at 3B, and how many more SB he'd have and how many singles he would have stretched into doubles if he batted leadoff. :lmfao:
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:18 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.



Hyothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?


Semantics.

The Triple Crown wins. Plus Trout can watch the MVP from home during the playoffs.

Again, farts
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:18 pm

Miggy got his team to the playoffs.......

M-V-P.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:21 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Triple Crown wins. I can't believe there is a debate over this.



Hyothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?


Semantics.

The Triple Crown wins. Plus Trout can watch the MVP from home during the playoffs.

Again, farts



Sorry, I'm not going to vote for a guy who didn't win the Triple Crown and didn't make the playoffs.

You know, important things.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:24 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Sorry, I'm not going to vote for a guy who didn't win the Triple Crown and didn't make the playoffs.

You know, important things.


Well, Austin Jackson's WAR is 5.2, so you could argue that if they had to replace him they wouldn't have made the playoffs either.

AUSTIN JACKSON MVP!!!! WHO'S WITH ME!?
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:29 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Sorry, I'm not going to vote for a guy who didn't win the Triple Crown and didn't make the playoffs.

You know, important things.


Well, Austin Jackson's WAR is 5.2, so you could argue the
at if they had to replace him they wouldn't have made the playoffs either.

AUSTIN JACKSON MVP!!!! WHO'S WITH ME!?


I don't care about WAR or other nerdboy stats with their pocket protectors and Dennis Nosco love.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:37 pm

Stupid stats.

I'll make up my own stat and be praised like a god by legions of nerds.

Batting AVG While Checking Out The Tits In Row 6

BAVGTITSROW6.

I win.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:53 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Miggy got his team to the playoffs.......

M-V-P.


Clearly the deciding factor in how A-Rod won his in '03, Ripken won his in '91, Andre Dawson won his and Ernie Banks won both his. Etc., etc., etc.

Like in '95 when Vaughn beat Belle because the Indians didn't make it to the playoffs.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:55 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Stupid stats.

I'll make up my own stat and be praised like a god by legions of nerds.

Batting AVG While Checking Out The Tits In Row 6

BAVGTITSROW6.

I win.



Your argument is crap but I do love this proposed new stat. And I propose Omar Vizquel would lead the world in it.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:03 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Miggy got his team to the playoffs.......

M-V-P.


Clearly the deciding factor in how A-Rod won his in '03, Ripken won his in '91, Andre Dawson won his and Ernie Banks won both his. Etc., etc., etc.

Like in '95 when Vaughn beat Belle because the Indians didn't make it to the playoffs.


::doh:: Christ...........

Ok, I guess winning the fucking Triple Crown and making the post season isn't enough for MVP.

Silly me.

You need to be ahead in shitty stats that only baseball nerds care about like WAR, PMPIMP, STAR, UZI, and BAPIPBIP.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:06 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Miggy got his team to the playoffs.......

M-V-P.


Clearly the deciding factor in how A-Rod won his in '03, Ripken won his in '91, Andre Dawson won his and Ernie Banks won both his. Etc., etc., etc.

Like in '95 when Vaughn beat Belle because the Indians didn't make it to the playoffs.


::doh:: Christ...........

Ok, I guess winning the fucking Triple Crown and making the post season isn't enough for MVP.

Silly me.

You need to be ahead in shitty stats that only baseball nerds care about like WAR, PMPIMP, STAR, UZI, and BAPIPBIP.


Finally. I was beginning to think you'd never get it.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:13 pm

This is why I hate baseball.

People would rather quantify the MVP with a calculator and pie charts, than their own goddamn eyes.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:22 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is why I hate baseball.

People would rather quantify the MVP with a calculator and pie charts, than their own goddamn eyes.


That's a fucking bullshit argument. The people that are championing Trout for MVP watched Trout play a whole heaping shitload with their eyes and liked what they saw.

And yeah, a lot of stats confirm it.

And anyway, how would your agrument be any different than theirs? You're essentially just yelling about the numbers too. Just different numbers.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:30 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is why I hate baseball.

People would rather quantify the MVP with a calculator and pie charts, than their own goddamn eyes.


That's a fucking bullshit argument. The people that are championing Trout for MVP watched Trout play a whole heaping shitload with their eyes and liked what they saw.

And yeah, a lot of stats confirm it.


It's lazy and now he's defensive about it.

I'm the King of Lazy Arguments & Defensive Responses so I recognize it when I see it.

And when you ask about guys (a lot of them) who won the award w/o making the playoffs or ask if all the 3pl Crown numbers are almost even but another guy is a GG winner and basestealer then suddenly you get the playoff argument.

Like I said, and I honestly mean it, I have no care whatsoever over who gets it. I see arguments on both sides. This could go on all day. Miggy's team is worse than Trout's but made the playoffs. Yay Miggy. And Trout's put together one of the best years in the history of the game from an all-around standpoint.

Personally, if I have one at bat that needs to produce a run to save my life, Cabrera is my guy in the box. He may well be the MVP. Very well may be. But it's not because he's the 3pl Crown Winner.

YMMV- if it does, GFY.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:31 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is why I hate baseball.

People would rather quantify the MVP with a calculator and pie charts, than their own goddamn eyes.


That's a fucking bullshit argument. The people that are championing Trout for MVP watched Trout play a whole heaping shitload with their eyes and liked what they saw.

And yeah, a lot of stats confirm it.


Not Avg, HRs, or RBIs. The big 3. The Triple goddamn Crown no one has seen since '67.

The award isn't best all around player, it's most valuable. That would be Cabrera.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:42 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is why I hate baseball.

People would rather quantify the MVP with a calculator and pie charts, than their own goddamn eyes.


That's a fucking bullshit argument. The people that are championing Trout for MVP watched Trout play a whole heaping shitload with their eyes and liked what they saw.

And yeah, a lot of stats confirm it.


The Triple goddamn Crown no one has seen since '67.

That makes no fucking difference whatsoever. None. Less than none.

The award isn't best all around player, it's most valuable. That would be Cabrera.

That makes all the difference in the world and should be what matters, regardless of which way it goes.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:17 pm

Confusing "lazy" argument with easy.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby pup » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:32 pm

I use stats because without them this entire board wouldn't know a baseball player from a god damn dentist. You cannot have a conversation in this place without it falling into some sort of acronym love fest.

You put Trout in the 4 hole and see his RBI go up. Awesome. I will put Miggy at leadoff and see his runs go up.

Take his singles and add his sb and his slugging goes up. Awesome. Take all the at bats Prince gets with two guys on instead of one because people are afraid to pitch to Miggy. Meanwhile, Trout isn't even the most feared hitter in his own freaking lineup.

Pretty soon all the geeks will get their way and we won't vote on anything. Highest WAR wins. Pretty soon they won't even play any games, just use the stats they think you would acquire and create a box score. Can't wait.

This is another one of those times I shall ask, please tell me the stats we should be going by. Then let's stick to them. But when 10 different sites use 10 different measures to come up with 300 different stats, it isn't hard to cherry pick your favorites.

batting average is stupid, right?
on base percentage is good, correct?
ops good but flawed?
All you saberdorks tell me stolen bases are pointless, then we pick an MVP because he has a shitload of them.
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:43 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Confusing "lazy" argument with easy.


No.

Lazy.

Answer my question and we can talk.

Hypothetical situation as I really don't care who wins:

Cabrera hits .340, 40 HRs and 130RBI, average or less defense, 10SBs
Trout hits .340, 38HRs and 125RBI w/GG defense and 40SBs

Does Triple Crown still win there as well?

Same numbers as above but Miggy is a DH only- Does Triple Crown still mean MVP there?

Miggy is first Triple Crown Winner since 1967 and Verlander wins 27 games on that same team. Still Miggy?
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Re: AL MVP - Triple Crown vs. Greatest Rookie Season ever

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:55 pm

pup wrote:I use stats because without them this entire board wouldn't know a baseball player from a god damn dentist. You cannot have a conversation in this place without it falling into some sort of acronym love fest.

You put Trout in the 4 hole and see his RBI go up. Awesome. I will put Miggy at leadoff and see his runs go up.

Take his singles and add his sb and his slugging goes up. Awesome. Take all the at bats Prince gets with two guys on instead of one because people are afraid to pitch to Miggy. Meanwhile, Trout isn't even the most feared hitter in his own freaking lineup.

Pretty soon all the geeks will get their way and we won't vote on anything. Highest WAR wins. Pretty soon they won't even play any games, just use the stats they think you would acquire and create a box score. Can't wait.

This is another one of those times I shall ask, please tell me the stats we should be going by. Then let's stick to them. But when 10 different sites use 10 different measures to come up with 300 different stats, it isn't hard to cherry pick your favorites.

batting average is stupid, right?
on base percentage is good, correct?
ops good but flawed?
All you saberdorks tell me stolen bases are pointless, then we pick an MVP because he has a shitload of them.


I'm not sure who you're directing this rant at, but I'm not using stats, I'm using my eyes. And you're making my argument for me that your stats are flawed.

You put Trout in the 4 hole and see his RBI go up. Awesome. I will put Miggy at leadoff and see his runs go up.


Exactly. I agree 100%. Which is why neither stat is a complete indicator of performance.

Here's what I know; the argument that Miggy is the MVP because his team is in the playoffs is mind-numbingly stupid. If team performance is important, fine. But Trout's team has won more games. It's not his fault the Tigers are in the AL Central

The argument that Miggy is the MVP because he wins the TC is stupid. The TC is historic and impressive and awesome, but it fails to measure a number of things which I listed in a post above. Not the least of which is defense, which is half the game.

If you thing Cabrera is more valuable this year than Trout, fine. I can see that argument. I disagree with it, but I don't think it's the craziest thing in the world. But no one here is talking about WAR but you, as far as I can tell.

Bottom line; if I could go back to April 1 and put one of the two of them on the Indians, I'd take Trout. If you'd prefer Miggy, that's fine, I'm not going to tell you that you're an idiot or anything, he's a very good player. I just prefer Trout because of his overall impact on the game.
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