Browns @ Ravens

[bookelly]

Well...at least we almost made it to the 4th quarter.

[municipalmutt]

Good night. Drive safely.

[Noodle]

That's game folks...
Goodnight, all.

[googleeph2]

Seems like when they get down, they sometimes answer- hang in there.

[googleeph2]

If the Browns were the Indians they'd have dealt Dawson for a half a practice squad.

Which actually might mean some instant starters at DB, LB or OL.

[municipalmutt]

Every other NFL team's fans anxiously await the "taking a knee" to seal the victory.

In Cleveland it goes something like this: Hmmm, less than two minutes left, all we need is a quick score then an onside kick, hail Mary, and two point conversion. Then only another onside kick and hail Mary. We got 'em right where we want 'em.

[peeker643]

Nice PR from Benjamin sets it up nicely to pin Ravens deep on the next Weeden INT. things are looking up.

[bookelly]

Wow...Little just fucking fucking fucking sucks.

/sorry Swerb

[peeker643]

Greg Little can go fuck himself. Great blitz pickup and throw and that douchebag has another ball go through the toasters he calls hands.

[peeker643]

Give it to Weeden. He's hung more than tough and made more good throws than bad. And he's gotten zero help from his receivers. No help at all.

[FUDU]

Agreed, you cannot hang Weeden out for this finish, regardless of win or loss.

[FUDU]

To be honest, you have to call that PF.

[FUDU]

Well, can't argue with the color man, can't throw that one out of the EZ.

[Squints]

Looks like shit in two games, over 300 yards in the other two. Encouraged, but I'll wait and see.

[peeker643]

How do you throw that ball 6 rows deep. That's not a question. It has to stay in play.

Meh... He gave me more hope tonight than I've had at any point but he has make decisions and progress through reads faster. But be didn't shrink from a thing tonight. Good on him.

I do hope they leave the whole lot of receivers somewhere on the Inner Harbor.

[jerryroche]

I do hope they leave the whole lot of receivers somewhere on the Inner Harbor.

How about at the bottom of Chesapeake Bay? With all the other dead fish.

[Spin]

Meh... He gave me more hope tonight than I've had at any point but he has make decisions and progress through reads faster. But be didn't shrink from a thing tonight. Good on him.

Typical rookie QB.

My god this team needs some receivers. You mean to tell me there were NO free agents better than this cast? At least Mitchell Schwartz is consistent. Can't stop anybody.

And who is responsible for teaching these guys how to TACKLE? I could have gotten a hand on some of these guys. They made Flacco look like Walter Payton.

Baby steps, I suppose.

[Hikohadon]

Rookie still needs to get the ball out faster, make quicker decisions, and not make the big mistakes like the pick 6. Seeing some progress, though, which I guess is something.

It's hard to think about it objectively, but if I were a fan of a different team I might've watched that game and said "He's/they're not as bad as I heard he/they was/were." There's definitely some talent on the team, which the New Coach will hopefully be competent enough to use properly.

I wonder how many drops there were. I think Little and Norwood had at least 3 each. Perhaps we can petition the NFL to allow our WR's to carry large butterfly nets.

Starting Benjamin over Gordon (or anyone) makes no sense. Benjamin is a weapon, but not as a starting WR.

[Hikohadon]

PS - That might be the 2nd game Haden's absence potentially lost.

[leadpipe]

Rookie still needs to get the ball out faster, make quicker decisions, and not make the big mistakes like the pick 6. Seeing some progress, though, which I guess is something.

It's hard to think about it objectively, but if I were a fan of a different team I might've watched that game and said "He's/they're not as bad as I heard he/they was/were." There's definitely some talent on the team, which the New Coach will hopefully be competent enough to use properly.

I wonder how many drops there were. I think Little and Norwood had at least 3 each. Perhaps we can petition the NFL to allow our WR's to carry large butterfly nets.

Starting Benjamin over Gordon (or anyone) makes no sense. Benjamin is a weapon, but not as a starting WR.

In defense of the Weeden throw....you aren't doing the guy any favors at this juncture by calling a 3rd down out at the chains. It's one thing for that to be an option for a guy like Brady who pounds the middle of the field, quite another for a guy that up to this point has thrown a ton of stuff late - in the limited patterns he's thrown.

Also, I see zero sign that Josh Gordon is going to be worth the 35th pick in the upcoming draft. I understand your point about Benjamin - but what if Benjamin is superior in practice? I think a second round receiver should find some targets among that group. Still too early to tell, but I'm a little concerned.

[googleeph2]

Solid game thread; compelling takes. Way better than any other Browns game thread.

In the middle of a sea of Bengal fans here, whose NFL interest seems to scratch the surface of Browns fans. But I am biased. Anyway, there are a lot of upbeat comments from them about how the Browns looked.

I am conflicted between:

* "Get the fluck away from me with that crap. You're being magnanimous because you think you are better. Don't patronize me, you arseholes. And anyway, the sum of what you know about football would fit in the sleeve of those stupid pajama-looking Carson Palmer jerseys that each damn one of you - and each of your wives and wimpy sons- still own. The Browns are 0-4, and looking at another complete front office turnover, so when the scheme changes, some fortunate teams will find some of these promising players to be available as free agents. So stuff it. I don't want you to 'pull' for the Browns because you feel sorry for them. I want you to hate me because you know they'll kick your arse twice a year."

and

* "Thanks."

[Hikohadon]

Also, I see zero sign that Josh Gordon is going to be worth the 35th pick in the upcoming draft. I understand your point about Benjamin - but what if Benjamin is superior in practice? I think a second round receiver should find some targets among that group. Still too early to tell, but I'm a little concerned.

I agree on Gordon, my point simply being that Benjamin shouldn't be used that way unless you have no one else. He shouldn't be in the starting role ever. He shouldn't be matched up against starting corners, they should be trying to move him all over the place, get him mismatches.

It wasn't a support on Gordon so much as saying putting Benjy in a starting role is a waste of both Benjy and the starting spot.

But I retract my earlier statement a little since they did have Cribbs starting there before he got hurt, so it wasn't their initial inclination to start Benjy.

[Hikohadon]

So stuff it. I don't want you to 'pull' for the Browns because you feel sorry for them. I want you to hate me because you know they'll kick your arse twice a year."

Yes. Only we are allowed to pity us.

[peeker643]

Rookie still needs to get the ball out faster, make quicker decisions, and not make the big mistakes like the pick 6. Seeing some progress, though, which I guess is something.

Yes to all of that. We agree!!! But I will say that even under pressure during the game that as the game went on Weeden handled it better, got up in the pocket, seemed to process information just weeeeee bit quicker. That's what really made me happy. And if he can do that weekly he's going to be fine. If he could be Flacco (although far less mobile), I'd be whistling zippity doo daa all day long.
It's hard to think about it objectively, but if I were a fan of a different team I might've watched that game and said "He's/they're not as bad as I heard he/they was/were." There's definitely some talent on the team, which the New Coach will hopefully be competent enough to use properly.

I wonder how many drops there were. I think Little and Norwood had at least 3 each. Perhaps we can petition the NFL to allow our WR's to carry large butterfly nets.

Starting Benjamin over Gordon (or anyone) makes no sense. Benjamin is a weapon, but not as a starting WR.

I said on twiiter last night that it'd be unfair to call Benjamin a coward but that he sure seems 'contact-averse'. I'll stick with that. He found the sidelines and the turf as quickly as he could last night but he truly is a slot guy only. Not ready to give up on Gordon or Little (and I know you're not saying you are) because these gus take a year or two to figure shit out. I think Gordon will be fine. Even a guy like Torrey Smith (who's far sharper than Gordon) had 5 or 6 catches after four games last year. I think Gordon will be a proficient player when he actually spends a year in the same program.

[Hikohadon]

I don't necessarily think Flacco is "far" more mobile... Flacco ran a 4.84 40, Weeden a 4.89, and Weeden looks mobile enough on his rollouts to be at least as mildly effective as Flacco is.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think either one is a running threat in any way shape or form. But I've also seen DA - who I think is less mobile than either - score rushing TD's.

[peeker643]

I don't necessarily think Flacco is "far" more mobile... Flacco ran a 4.84 40, Weeden a 4.89, and Weeden looks mobile enough on his rollouts to be at least as mildly effective as Flacco is.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think either one is a running threat in any way shape or form. But I've also seen DA - who I think is less mobile than either - score rushing TD's.

He looks far more mobile to these eyes. Specifically in the pocket. It may be more a reflection of comfort and experience than being physically more gifted. But that's what I see.

[Hikohadon]

I don't necessarily think Flacco is "far" more mobile... Flacco ran a 4.84 40, Weeden a 4.89, and Weeden looks mobile enough on his rollouts to be at least as mildly effective as Flacco is.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think either one is a running threat in any way shape or form. But I've also seen DA - who I think is less mobile than either - score rushing TD's.

He looks far more mobile to these eyes. Specifically in the pocket. It may be more a reflection of comfort and experience than being physically more gifted. But that's what I see.

I think you have it. If Weeden ever gets as comfortable in the pocket as Flacco (which after 5 years he damn well better), I think he'll look less awkward.

[FUDU]

Rushing TDs Hiko, that's how you see or equate QB mobility?

I don't see QB mobility as being about that at all...Bernie scored rushing TDs. Don't get me wrong, I'd take that from my QB, but QB mobility is more strongly valued in being able to use the pocket and create one when the previous pocket disappears. IMHO.

Maybe using the word mobile isn't the best word to use. You could say Tom Brady isn't mobile, but you certainly cannot say Tom Brady can't move around back there and make use of the pocket or create enough room to succeed.

[Spin]

Rookie still needs to get the ball out faster, make quicker decisions, and not make the big mistakes like the pick 6. Seeing some progress, though, which I guess is something.

Not that I'm defending him completely, but he is a spread QB under center for the first time. He's use to standing up straight, seeing the whole field, and having that extra split second to make a move. A more modern open minded HC/GM/prez would look at his experience and skillset, and the non-existent line, and convert the O to the spread. You know, join the modern era.

[FUDU]

Rookie still needs to get the ball out faster, make quicker decisions, and not make the big mistakes like the pick 6. Seeing some progress, though, which I guess is something.

Not that I'm defending him completely, but he is a spread QB under center for the first time. He's use to standing up straight, seeing the whole field, and having that extra split second to make a move. A more modern open minded HC/GM/prez would look at his experience and skillset, and the non-existent line, and convert the O to the spread. You know, join the modern era.

I'll agree Weeden needs more suitable situations for him to succeed (if that means more shotgun so be it) but the Browns problem(s) isn't from not using the spread offense. The spread doesn't work just b/c it is the "spread" and it is "modern", the spread requires certain tools and factors as well. We don't necessarily have them.

The Browns need to get good at some basic stuff, and fine tune other things they may fall into the NFL trend category as well, in general they need overall improvement through time, reps and better players in specific spots. None of which happens inside of a season yet alone a week.

Just b/c something becomes effective in college ball doesn't mean it will (ever) translate to the NFL.

[Gradysmanldy]

Rookie still needs to get the ball out faster, make quicker decisions, and not make the big mistakes like the pick 6. Seeing some progress, though, which I guess is something.

Yes to all of that. We agree!!! But I will say that even under pressure during the game that as the game went on Weeden handled it better, got up in the pocket, seemed to process information just weeeeee bit quicker. That's what really made me happy. And if he can do that weekly he's going to be fine. If he could be Flacco (although far less mobile), I'd be whistling zippity doo daa all day long.
It's hard to think about it objectively, but if I were a fan of a different team I might've watched that game and said "He's/they're not as bad as I heard he/they was/were." There's definitely some talent on the team, which the New Coach will hopefully be competent enough to use properly.

I wonder how many drops there were. I think Little and Norwood had at least 3 each. Perhaps we can petition the NFL to allow our WR's to carry large butterfly nets.

Starting Benjamin over Gordon (or anyone) makes no sense. Benjamin is a weapon, but not as a starting WR.

I said on twiiter last night that it'd be unfair to call Benjamin a coward but that he sure seems 'contact-averse'. I'll stick with that. He found the sidelines and the turf as quickly as he could last night but he truly is a slot guy only. Not ready to give up on Gordon or Little (and I know you're not saying you are) because these gus take a year or two to figure shit out. I think Gordon will be fine. Even a guy like Torrey Smith (who's far sharper than Gordon) had 5 or 6 catches after four games last year. I think Gordon will be a proficient player when he actually spends a year in the same program.

I think if you swap these two guys from last night, they have exactly the same numbers. Weeden put up 325 yards and had at least 3-5 LEGIT drops. Give him Torrey Smith and Anquan over meaty mctoasterhands and a few midgets, and i'd easily take the over on his yards/totals. Liked what I saw from him last night, outside of the pick six, obviously.

So far, nothing we've seen suggests that with a real offense and a year of development with these WR's, he wont be around nfl average next year. (Which would be the first time weve sniffed that since the return, which is nice)

Gordon wasn't drafted this year to make an immediate impact; he'll play some down the stretch, but really they are just jump starting his development. If he starts next year and has a full route tree of capability, youve already made a huge steal.

Last night sucked.

[Hikohadon]

Rushing TDs Hiko, that's how you see or equate QB mobility?

I don't see QB mobility as being about that at all...Bernie scored rushing TDs. Don't get me wrong, I'd take that from my QB, but QB mobility is more strongly valued in being able to use the pocket and create one when the previous pocket disappears. IMHO.

Maybe using the word mobile isn't the best word to use. You could say Tom Brady isn't mobile, but you certainly cannot say Tom Brady can't move around back there and make use of the pocket or create enough room to succeed.

Uh... no. Not sure how you got that. Ignore the crack about DA if that somehow is confusing the matter.

[pup]

Can someone please explain to me why Cameron Jordan Cameron isn't getting 70 snaps and 10 targets per game?

Step 1 in the game plan should be figure out as many ways as possible to get him in the slot against a safety and go to work. Good routes. Best hands. Athletic freak.

[peeker643]

I disagree regarding swapping them and getting same results.

Weeden has not shown anywhere near the deft tdeep touch Flacco displayed last night. Even considering drops.

It's a lot like two hard throwing pitchers. Weeden goes to the fastball when he's in 'trouble' and tries to pump that in there.

Flacco has developed the secondary pitch and displays far better deep touch. He can throw the fastball but he can also drop balls onto receivers 40 yards down the field with far more touch than Weeden has displayed thus far (or in college where he could simply throw fastballs through huge windows to talented receivers).

I do think Weeden's style and attributes will eventually lend themselves nicely to the back shoulder fades and back shoulder throws in general but I've seen nothing close to NFL-claiber touch thus far.

The hope is that it's only a developmental issue. If Weeden develops his 'secondary' stuff he'll be fine. If he doesn't he'll be Jaret Wright.

[Hikohadon]

Obviously, it is unfair to compare a QB in his 4th NFL game to a QB in his 5th NFL season.

I think the reason so many want to is that they have a very comparable skill set.

Thing is, in Cleveland, not sure Flacco gets 5 years to develop into what he is now.

[comish]

Can someone please explain to me why Cameron Jordan Cameron isn't getting 70 snaps and 10 targets per game?
Step 1 in the game plan should be figure out as many ways as possible to get him in the slot against a safety and go to work. Good routes. Best hands. Athletic freak.

Because they would rather play the guys in front of him that they drafted higher and are letting their egos get in the way?

Shrugs

[Spin]

I'll agree Weeden needs more suitable situations for him to succeed (if that means more shotgun so be it) but the Browns problem(s) isn't from not using the spread offense. The spread doesn't work just b/c it is the "spread" and it is "modern", the spread requires certain tools and factors as well. We don't necessarily have them.

The Browns need to get good at some basic stuff, and fine tune other things they may fall into the NFL trend category as well, in general they need overall improvement through time, reps and better players in specific spots. None of which happens inside of a season yet alone a week.

Just b/c something becomes effective in college ball doesn't mean it will (ever) translate to the NFL.

True, spread is just one type of shotgun, and we can't find two receivers capable of catching a thrown ball, let alone four. Or a QB who can run (not to reopen that can of worms).

My thinking was TR doesn't need a FB who can't open a hole, and has to bounce out into another hole. But even in Marecic isn't opening a hole, he is tying up one defender I guess. So maybe him taking up space is slightly more productive than Gordon/Smith taking up space.

I'd take any version of the gun for its visibility and that extra split second before Weeds gets buried.

[FUDU]

Obviously, it is unfair to compare a QB in his 4th NFL game to a QB in his 5th NFL season.

I think the reason so many want to is that they have a very comparable skill set.

Thing is, in Cleveland, not sure Flacco gets 5 years to develop into what he is now.

This is an interesting approach to evaluating the perpetual Flacco analysis.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8434708/the-numbers-never-lie-ravens-fueled-their-defense

Not rocket science and it pretty much follows along with the standard eye test.

[peeker643]

Obviously, it is unfair to compare a QB in his 4th NFL game to a QB in his 5th NFL season.

I think the reason so many want to is that they have a very comparable skill set.

Thing is, in Cleveland, not sure Flacco gets 5 years to develop into what he is now.

Still an issue that 5 years to develop puts Weeden at a month shy of 34 yrs old. That's not a death warrant but it's not exactly ideal either.

That's always been a sizeable part of my misgivings with the guy.

Not getting back to that, because a few things he did last night really did give me hope. But that developmental period needs to be compressed as much as humanly possible IMO.

[bookelly]

Solid game thread; compelling takes. Way better than any other Browns game thread.

In the middle of a sea of Bengal fans here, whose NFL interest seems to scratch the surface of Browns fans. But I am biased. Anyway, there are a lot of upbeat comments from them about how the Browns looked.

I am conflicted between:

* "Get the fluck away from me with that crap. You're being magnanimous because you think you are better. Don't patronize me, you arseholes. And anyway, the sum of what you know about football would fit in the sleeve of those stupid pajama-looking Carson Palmer jerseys that each damn one of you - and each of your wives and wimpy sons- still own. The Browns are 0-4, and looking at another complete front office turnover, so when the scheme changes, some fortunate teams will find some of these promising players to be available as free agents. So stuff it. I don't want you to 'pull' for the Browns because you feel sorry for them. I want you to hate me because you know they'll kick your arse twice a year."

and

* "Thanks."

Not sure if your being serious of sarcastic. Regardless...that's insulting to those of us who actually took the time to comment on theses boards.

[motherscratcher]

Thats kind of harsh, especially since I don't think Googleeph was being sarcastic. There are some good takes in the thread.

[peeker643]

Thats kind of harsh, especially since I don't think Googleeph was being sarcastic. There are some good takes in the thread.

Yeah... as a guy that knows 'misguided and harsh', I'd say that was misguided and harsh.

[pod2dawg]

Weeds is the 14th oldest QB in the league.
There is hope, better pocket presence , get the game to slow down a bit. Avoid the big mistake , pick 6's, heaving game enders to the fans..stuff like that.
A couple guards ..receivers without toasters...:)

[LakeErieWarriors]

Weeden is about a year older than Flacco. I think Flacco's got at least 5 more good years in him. This makes me feel better about Weeden. It took Flacco a handful of years to really hit his stride last year. This makes me feel terrified about Weeden.

Biggest new frustration from last night (new because dropped balls have become the norm). TRich only had 14 attempts. He had 3.4 YPC for a total of 47 yards. TRich is most definitely our most talented player on offense; Chilly needs to work him in/dedicate more offense to this guy, otherwise we're just wasting him.

[bookelly]

I put an edit in...my bad. In a sour mood this morning. Apologies to all...especially Googleeph.

I'm just tired of being a C-town fan. It'd be easier if I just paid some chick to piss on me and never watched the damn games.

[TouchEmAllTime]

Obviously, it is unfair to compare a QB in his 4th NFL game to a QB in his 5th NFL season.

I think the reason so many want to is that they have a very comparable skill set.

Thing is, in Cleveland, not sure Flacco gets 5 years to develop into what he is now.

Still an issue that 5 years to develop puts Weeden at a month shy of 34 yrs old. That's not a death warrant but it's not exactly ideal either.

That's always been a sizeable part of my misgivings with the guy.

Not getting back to that, because a few things he did last night really did give me hope. But that developmental period needs to be compressed as much as humanly possible IMO.

I think he can have til mid season 2013, and if it's not looking like it's there, then you have to look hard at a QB with the 2014 first round pick. I don't think they should panic and take one just to take one from this 2013 crop. The more I think about it and now see the reality of it, this was just a bad move in so many ways (taking Weeds).

[peeker643]

Obviously, it is unfair to compare a QB in his 4th NFL game to a QB in his 5th NFL season.

I think the reason so many want to is that they have a very comparable skill set.

Thing is, in Cleveland, not sure Flacco gets 5 years to develop into what he is now.

Still an issue that 5 years to develop puts Weeden at a month shy of 34 yrs old. That's not a death warrant but it's not exactly ideal either.

That's always been a sizeable part of my misgivings with the guy.

Not getting back to that, because a few things he did last night really did give me hope. But that developmental period needs to be compressed as much as humanly possible IMO.

I think he can have til mid season 2013, and if it's not looking like it's there, then you have to look hard at a QB with the 2014 first round pick. I don't think they should panic and take one just to take one from this 2013 crop. The more I think about it and now see the reality of it, this was just a bad move in so many ways (taking Weeds).

They handcuffed themselves in a big way. That's what eats at me. And they (H&H) did it for selfish reasons as opposed to considering the long term well-being of the team. Best case it takes Weeden two years (with likely regime change thrown in) and he gets it and has 7 more years to shine.

I'm hoping for that. I don't dislike the guy or hope he fails. I think the people that brought him here did him no favors and set him up with a really difficult success plan.

That said, I was happy as the game progressed. It was almost like he had something click in regard to realization of the situation, the speed of the game, how he needs to adjust and how quick he needs to read and deliver. That game gave him some confidence and it came against an aging but still really challenging defense.

[googleeph2]

Catching up.

Boo- was actually appreciating the thread w/o sarcasm. My reference to other Browns games threads meant vs. other sites.
You're my bud- you gave me the Len Barker ticket photo that one time!

As always, if a franchise (or even an elite) QB is somehow available in the draft (esp. if you 'earned' the pick, without a trade being required), take him, no matter who is on your roster already. Don't know who that could be in '13. I come here to learn stuff like that.

Agree about 'almost like he had something click' with Weeden. Back to eg. vs. Phil, he seemed to be throwing to the open guys; he was just rushing and overthrowing. To my untrained eye.

[motherscratcher]

I get what you're saying Peek, and I don't disagree, but if they don't take Weeden I still am not sure where the QB comes from. I'm assuming the Browns would be playing with Colt at QB now, who might be good enough to win4-6 games (probably less after seeing the first 4 games, but that's what I was expecting preseason) and then go after a QB in 2013 draft.

But which guy? Barkley is the presumed #1 and I've yet to come across someone on these boards that Ctually wants him. Landry Effing Jones almost looks like he will be lucky to get drafted at this point. I suppose there is still time for someone to emerge ala RG3, but 1/3 of the way through the college season that guy has yet to step forward.

So if that's the case we are probably looking at 2014 anyway. It was a shit sandwich any way you look at it.

So what was better? Use a 2012 1st on the best QB remaining? Set thm back with a turd in 2013? Or wait until 2014?

I guess maybe I'd rather spend 2 years figuring out if Weeden is the guy and draft another QB in 2014 if he's not. Because it looks like that was the next opportunity anyway.

And 2 years of Colt for lack of a better option...just set fire to my ballsac.

[googleeph2]

TRich only had 14 attempts. He had 3.4 YPC for a total of 47 yards. TRich is most definitely our most talented player on offense; Chilly needs to work him in/dedicate more offense to this guy, otherwise we're just wasting him.

Hoping they've been working him in due to the 2 procedures and no training camp.

Would love to see the Browns get a 2 possession lead in the 2nd half some time and get him to spin 7 minutes off the clock. How about at home vs the Bengals in 2 weeks, with the stands still full in the 4th qutr and getting louder with each carry.