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08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

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08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:40 pm

Who care's who's hitting...... Z-Mac on the mound, let's see how many innings we can sit through!
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby 1Perry » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:38 pm

No way the Indians can score 4 runs the rest of the game but Z with 8 strike outs in 4 innings?
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:39 pm

Not watching, don't want to ruin or Waste my night
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby 1Perry » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:02 pm

2nd and 3rd, no outs and they can't score.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:03 pm

With a quality left-handed going for the A's this game was over as soon as it got to 2-0.

What a joke. Duncan drops a very catchable fly ball; Lillibridge throws away a routine double play. McAlister can't get his slider over so he's forced to groove fastballs and gets taken deep twice. Just a sad excuse for a major league team right now. They really look like they're just going through the motions.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby jerryroche » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:08 pm

Tuned in, saw the score (5-0) and watched McAllister pitch for a while, then turned back to national politics.

It's a shame. McAllister is one of this season's few bright spots. You could see the disappointment on his face as he was taken out of the game. Manning, with good reason, was getting real pissy about the lack of offensive support.

This continued losing has to be taking its mental toll on all the younger guys. It's a shame, because there's enough young talent on this team to build around. (Never mind the fact that the build will take three or four years.) The last thing the Indians need is the big black cloud of LOSING hanging over the heads of the youngsters.

I agree with Peeker's post in another thread: this season is easily the most disappointing in recent Cleveland sports history.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:12 pm

I turned it just in time to see Shelly Duncan bumbling under a fly ball in left....

Really, it's enough already. You mean to tell me they don't have anyone on the farm that can't hit .200 and is a hack in the field?

Runnin' clowns like Duncan and Hanahan out there is just wasting people's time - most importantly mine.

I'll watch when there's someone....anyone new up here.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:45 pm

I wonder if we will see any late season call ups? My reasoning is that the team is going nowhere, and each guy who plays on the major league team for a month will get 80 thousand. Can't see Dolan laying out cash like that. Like it or not, I think we see Shelly, Matt, and Hannahan the rest of the season.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:32 am

Bigfist wrote: Like it or not, I think we see Shelly, Matt, and Hannahan the rest of the season.


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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby justmebd » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:18 am

Bigfist wrote:I wonder if we will see any late season call ups? My reasoning is that the team is going nowhere, and each guy who plays on the major league team for a month will get 80 thousand. Can't see Dolan laying out cash like that. Like it or not, I think we see Shelly, Matt, and Hannahan the rest of the season.

This.

This also is why you probably won't see Manny Acta fired. You think these cheap jagoffs are going to pay someone to stay home? Not going to happen. I would be VERY shocked if Acta was given the boot. If they stubbornly hung on to the Atomic Wedgie and even let him coach out the string in 2010, they sure as hell aren't going to fire a manager with more years on his contract.

I'm starting to wonder if they'll even buy out Hafner's contract, because he just might be healthy next year (and my hair might grow back).

:fu: to the Dolans
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby jb » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:45 am

justmebd wrote:This also is why you probably won't see Manny Acta fired.



Give me one valid reason Manny Acta should lose his job.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:55 am

jb wrote:
justmebd wrote:This also is why you probably won't see Manny Acta fired.



Give me one valid reason Manny Acta should lose his job.


The appearance of doing something? Wait...you said valid.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:08 am

Bigfist wrote:I wonder if we will see any late season call ups? My reasoning is that the team is going nowhere, and each guy who plays on the major league team for a month will get 80 thousand. Can't see Dolan laying out cash like that. Like it or not, I think we see Shelly, Matt, and Hannahan the rest of the season.


Nothing to do with money or any of that. We'll see a lot of Columbus Clippers come up when the rosters expand. They're about to be completely out of the wild card hunt.

Akron's steamrolling the Eastern League. Won't get any help there. They'll get some help from Columbus too.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby Bigfist » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:26 am

We'll see. I think if the FO had any intention in having Fedroff, Canzler, or Goedert audition, they would have done so by now.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:30 am

Bigfist wrote:We'll see. I think if the FO had any intention in having Fedroff, Canzler, or Goedert audition, they would have done so by now.


I expect all three of those guys to be here and get some PT. Can rotate Canzler/Goedert in at DH, Fedroff will see some LF time. They already know what they have in Carrera.

I don't see what an extra week or two in Columbus matters. They wanted to try and get Columbus into the playoffs. It didn't happen. Now, there was no point in not just waiting until rosters expanded.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby pup » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:30 pm

jb wrote:
justmebd wrote:This also is why you probably won't see Manny Acta fired.



Give me one valid reason Manny Acta should lose his job.


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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:49 pm

pup wrote:
jb wrote:
justmebd wrote:This also is why you probably won't see Manny Acta fired.



Give me one valid reason Manny Acta should lose his job.


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2 2008 39 Washington Nationals NL 161 59 102 .366 5
3 2009 40 Washington Nationals NL 87 26 61 .299 5
4 2010 41 Cleveland Indians AL 162 69 93 .426 4
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6 2012 43 Cleveland Indians AL 129 55 74 .426 4
Washington Nationals 3 years 410 158 252 .385 4.7
Cleveland Indians 3 years 453 204 249 .450 3.3
6 years 863 362 501 .419 4.0


Anyone with half a brain knows that he had no fucking talent in Washington and has no fucking pitching here.

He might get fired, but, it ain't his fault.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:12 am

skatingtripods wrote:Anyone with half a brain knows that he had no fucking talent in Washington and has no fucking pitching here.

He might get fired, but, it ain't his fault.

^This^

I've said elsewhere neither Al Lopez nor Grover could have dragged this team up to a .500 season. Can't make lobster salad when you're given chum fish.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby pup » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:22 am

Am I Here Again? wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Anyone with half a brain knows that he had no fucking talent in Washington and has no fucking pitching here.

He might get fired, but, it ain't his fault.

^This^

I've said elsewhere neither Al Lopez nor Grover could have dragged this team up to a .500 season. Can't make lobster salad when you're given chum fish.


Is this roster 4-25 bad? There is no excuse or defense for this month of August. He might not be a bad manager, but he sure as hell isn't a good one.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:30 am

pup wrote:Is this roster 4-25 bad? There is no excuse or defense for this month of August. He might not be a bad manager, but he sure as hell isn't a good one.


The pitching is. They're on pace to be the only team since 1899 without a starting pitcher that is above being a replacement-level player (nobody with a positive WAR).

Can't blame Acta that the starters put them in a hole damn near every game.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby pup » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:10 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
pup wrote:Is this roster 4-25 bad? There is no excuse or defense for this month of August. He might not be a bad manager, but he sure as hell isn't a good one.


The pitching is. They're on pace to be the only team since 1899 without a starting pitcher that is above being a replacement-level player (nobody with a positive WAR).

Can't blame Acta that the starters put them in a hole damn near every game.


So, what you are saying is the "building around strong pitching" has failed?
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:32 pm

pup wrote:So, what you are saying is the "building around strong pitching" has failed?


Failed miserably.

And Masterson got his brains beaten in by a shitty lineup again today.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby rigs » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:08 pm

People that want Manny Acta to stick around need to give a reason why. Why should he stay? The team has totally quit on him. They are playing at a 120 loss pace since the all-star break. What manager would ever survive this? Not even Brad Mills, on a team that was EXPECTED to lose 100+ games, survived it.

No crap the team stinks. What manager lost 100 games with a good team?
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:29 pm

rigs wrote:People that want Manny Acta to stick around need to give a reason why. Why should he stay? The team has totally quit on him. They are playing at a 120 loss pace since the all-star break. What manager would ever survive this? Not even Brad Mills, on a team that was EXPECTED to lose 100+ games, survived it.

No crap the team stinks. What manager lost 100 games with a good team?


I don't think Acta keeps his job, but for the sake of devil's advocate, I'll play your game.

A team of replacement level players is projected by Baseball-Reference to finish 51-111. In Acta's five full years as manager, he has had teams that were 17, 10.4, 21.5, 22.6, and this season's team is 11.3 wins above replacement players.

That means Acta should have records of 68-94, 61-101, 73-89, 74-88, and this season should end 62-100. That's a combined 338-472. So far, Acta is 336-441 with 32 games to go. So, he has overachieved as a manager with a total lack of talent on his ballclubs.

He's a very progressive manager with statistics. If he had the necessary tools for the job, I believe he would be able to use them effectively. He studies sabermetric stats and matchups. That should mesh well with most front offices in the league.

I don't think this year's team has quit on him, per se, they've quit on themselves. It shouldn't be the manager's job to play cheerleader and get everybody all riled up. It's a team devoid of on-field leaders and with only a couple of energy guys (Kipnis may be the only one).

Acta had two really strong first halves with teams that were severely flawed. There's something to be said for that, especially last year's team that dealt with a lot of injuries throughout the year.

Acta's not the problem. The team is.

None of this will be enough to keep his job, and, frankly, I don't think he wants to keep this job and endure a 100-loss season next year.

I can't say for certain how Acta is with the players. There has been regression with several guys, and I'm not entirely sure how much of that is on Acta. I don't know what his day-to-day dealings are with players, or if he delegates that to his coaching staff.

Like Lead Pipe likes to point out, I don't know how much a manager truly matters. I can take it or leave it with Acta for next season. I don't think it matters either way.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:43 pm

Is it realistic that this team is outta here within 5-10 years?
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby rigs » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:01 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
rigs wrote:People that want Manny Acta to stick around need to give a reason why. Why should he stay? The team has totally quit on him. They are playing at a 120 loss pace since the all-star break. What manager would ever survive this? Not even Brad Mills, on a team that was EXPECTED to lose 100+ games, survived it.

No crap the team stinks. What manager lost 100 games with a good team?


I don't think Acta keeps his job, but for the sake of devil's advocate, I'll play your game.

A team of replacement level players is projected by Baseball-Reference to finish 51-111. In Acta's five full years as manager, he has had teams that were 17, 10.4, 21.5, 22.6, and this season's team is 11.3 wins above replacement players.

That means Acta should have records of 68-94, 61-101, 73-89, 74-88, and this season should end 62-100. That's a combined 338-472. So far, Acta is 336-441 with 32 games to go. So, he has overachieved as a manager with a total lack of talent on his ballclubs.

He's a very progressive manager with statistics. If he had the necessary tools for the job, I believe he would be able to use them effectively. He studies sabermetric stats and matchups. That should mesh well with most front offices in the league.

I don't think this year's team has quit on him, per se, they've quit on themselves. It shouldn't be the manager's job to play cheerleader and get everybody all riled up. It's a team devoid of on-field leaders and with only a couple of energy guys (Kipnis may be the only one).

Acta had two really strong first halves with teams that were severely flawed. There's something to be said for that, especially last year's team that dealt with a lot of injuries throughout the year.

Acta's not the problem. The team is.

None of this will be enough to keep his job, and, frankly, I don't think he wants to keep this job and endure a 100-loss season next year.

I can't say for certain how Acta is with the players. There has been regression with several guys, and I'm not entirely sure how much of that is on Acta. I don't know what his day-to-day dealings are with players, or if he delegates that to his coaching staff.

Like Lead Pipe likes to point out, I don't know how much a manager truly matters. I can take it or leave it with Acta for next season. I don't think it matters either way.


Valid, well thought out points. Fire him anyways.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby swerb » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:24 pm

What Tripods said.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby 1Perry » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:36 pm

If Acta isn't fired then the front office would have to answer why they put a 62-100 team on the field.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:33 pm

Well, I have no idea if Acta deserves to be fired or not, but for over a hundred years managers have been fired for having poor records. Was it Wedge's fault the 2008 and 2009 teams stunk? Or Grover's fault the 1999 season ended in a horrible playoff loss? He had no pitchers to work with either. Geez....we can go back to Frank Robinson, Jeff Torborg, Dave Garcia, Mel McGaha, Al Dark, and Ken Aspromente and say..it wasn't their fault. They had some awful rosters. Should they have been kept?

I guess the one thing we can look at is that Jim Riggleman, with basically the same roster as Acta, got the 2009 Nationals to 33-42 record after Acta was fired. This is nothing to write home about, but the improvement went on for a much longer period of time than the brief bump a team generally gets under a new manager.
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Re: 08/28 - Another game, another reason to drink!

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:20 pm

In reference to Wedge

2005 - Great Bullpen --- 93 wins

2006 - Black hole from hell--- 78 wins

2007- Great Bullpen - 96 wins

2008 - Black Hole from Hell 2 - 81 wins.

Pretty consistent roster and talent level throughout those 4 years.





I am also in the camp that managers are pretty much figure heads/useless/all the same, however you want to say it. There are areas in which a trained monkey COULD NOT do their job, and this is where some differ, but in reference to this team, other than a person being able to see the future , NO manager could have stopped this train wreck. Its up to the talent on the field.
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