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Does Acta survive this?

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Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:01 am

I don't think very much of this is his fault given the turd sandwich of talent he has to work with. However, you have to figure the front office will be looking for a scapegoat in a historically bad stretch plus he only has a year left on his contract. He doesn't deserve to be fired but I think he's a coinflip at best to be back next year.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:12 am

I am guessing it is 50-50. I think it really depends on how the team does the rest of the year. If we go on to lose 95 games (certainly not beyond the realm of possibility), I think he will be gone. If the team can look relatively good the rest of the year, I think he stays.

Rarely, it seems to me, does it make any difference who the manager is. But that has not stopped GM's from time immemorial from firing them. Shoot...Brad Mills was recently fired from Houston, and his replacement (I think) has yet to win a game.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Spin » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:16 am

The team quit, and that's on him.

I don't think it's fair that he takes the blame for that, because the FO is more at fault for the team quitting as anybody. Does anyone else think it was no coincidence the team tanked when someone leaked the Tribe had several players (Choo, Perez, someone else) on the trading block right before the trade deadline?

IMO the team quit. They were still in the running for the playoffs, they just took 2 of 3 against the Tigers. Right after the best players were put on the block, the 11 gamer was on. I think Manny quit too, and wants the hell out of here. I don't blame him. He'd been using smoke and mirrors keeping this AAA/retirement team in the running, and suddenly found out it was rebuilding time. And judging by Shapiro's previous rebuilding success, wants out.

I'm with him on that.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:23 am

Why would we want him to? Only four managers in history have managed more games than him with a worse record. He'll pass one of them if he survives two more weeks.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby swerb » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:36 am

Has any manager in history survived a season with two 10+ game losing streaks?

End of the day, they gotta weigh Manny as a manager vs Sandy, cause this is likely your last shot to give Sandy the gig. As we've discussed ad nauseum, Connie Mack couldn't win 85 games with this talent.

I am now in the minority. I like Acta. He calls a game the way I like to see it called.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:40 am

The Alomar thing is the key.

This organization can't and won't spend money on talent so they'll utilize an Alomar hiring to appeal to the people still living in the 90's.

Give Sandy a chance, maybe hit on him but definitely generate interest in the shittiest team in the league from a fan base that's been beaten down enough to believe this is good news.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby swerb » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:42 am

I think from a straight PR standpoint, they will can Acta and give Sandy the job, as Peeker said. Forgetting all about what the best possible baseball move is.

I have NEVER seen Indians fan disenchantment at anywhere close to these levels. Since like '88. Sandy will benefit and likely become the next manager.

God help him. And us.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:51 am

swerb wrote:I think from a straight PR standpoint, they will can Acta and give Sandy the job, as Peeker said. Forgetting all about what the best possible baseball move is.

I have NEVER seen Indians fan disenchantment at anywhere close to these levels. Since like '88. Sandy will benefit and likely become the next manager.

God help him. And us.


I agree, look at how bad early attendance was the last two years with a team that was actually decent. Now you have a team that's likely to suck with Choo, etc. going out the door and a fanbase that's been conditioned not to trust a good start anyway. They'd be looking at REALLY ugly numbers without some other draw (and I don't even think Sandy is enough to keep it respectable).
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Spin » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:14 am

swerb wrote:I have NEVER seen Indians fan disenchantment at anywhere close to these levels. Since like '88. Sandy will benefit and likely become the next manager.


I came on board in 76, and even back then when O'Neil owned the team and Gabe Paul was GM and covering the payroll out of his own pocket there wasn't this much hatred and apathy. I think part of it was, we all knew the team was broke.

That's not the case anymore.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:50 am

Acta won't want to be part of another rebuild. He may be "fired", but I think it'll be mutual.

I don't know if Sandy wants to deal with the pain of a rebuild. He won't turn the job down, but I don't think he'll be too happy about it.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby jerryroche » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:28 pm

Let's bring Lou Brown back from selling tires in Toledo. He won a pennant with Willie Mays Hayes, Pedro Cerrano, Roger Dorn, Jake Taylor and Ricky Vaughn.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:35 pm

Yeah, you wonder if 'we' will survive this, with Acta.

Does anyone ask the FO what they are going to do about what he pointed out (& is obvious).
SP/1B/LF etc?

He and Perez will do just fine, somewhere.

And if Alomar really wants to be a manager, fine. But if he is happy as a coach, keep him there. If I am him, there would be some appeal in staying where peoply may like you most vs. moving up only to get fired soon, either here or elsewhere.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:23 pm

I don't think it helps his cause that there are shit teams in MLB still playing hard right now like San Diego (took 5 of 6 from Pittsburgh the last couple weeks), Colorado (has won 8 of 11), and even the team that just swept us with Wedge of all people at the helm. If you look at the rosters of any of these teams, it's mainly crap, just younger crap than ours, but the fact is they have all been out of the race for months now but they are continuing to play hard and show some fight. IMO Tampa Bay's batting lineup is shit, and they are likely to get yet another wild card. Joe Maddon is one of those select few who does make a difference and gets you another 10 wins, even with 3/4 of the year without Longoria, the guy is amazing. Acta was given a pile of garbage, but it's part on him that they have quit and thus I think he's gone.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby rigs » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:28 pm

A manager makes very little difference in baseball. The short list of the few that do make a difference does not include Manny "0 for 7" Acta. Bad teams, for sure. Maybe no one would have had a winning year. But no reason to keep him around. He has shown absolutely nothing special.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby 1Perry » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:45 pm

It's almost like ownership tries their best to alienate the fans. The Acta pick was a poor one to start with. Few believed a guy who had never managed a team to a winning record was going to be successful.

That said, I don't think he's done a bad job but most teams would have already made the change by now.

I sort of feel bad for Sandy as he can't fix this. I wouldn't be surprised to see the team skip over Sandy even as that would be the popular move.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:04 pm

The next four series are against teams fighting for the playoffs...Yankees, Oakland, Texas, Detroit. Total of 13 games. As I said above, I think Manny survives with a strong finish. And I think he survives the homestand. But going 2-11 or some such record in the next thirteen probably seals his fate. I dont't think he would be let go, though, until the end of the season.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:11 pm

Managers don't survive this type of thing. I don't think Manny will either. I liked him too.

Nobody will ever cinvince me that it really matters, though.

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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:19 pm

TouchEmAllTime wrote:I don't think it helps his cause that there are shit teams in MLB still playing hard right now like San Diego (took 5 of 6 from Pittsburgh the last couple weeks), Colorado (has won 8 of 11), and even the team that just swept us with Wedge of all people at the helm. If you look at the rosters of any of these teams, it's mainly crap, just younger crap than ours, but the fact is they have all been out of the race for months now but they are continuing to play hard and show some fight. IMO Tampa Bay's batting lineup is shit, and they are likely to get yet another wild card. Joe Maddon is one of those select few who does make a difference and gets you another 10 wins, even with 3/4 of the year without Longoria, the guy is amazing. Acta was given a pile of garbage, but it's part on him that they have quit and thus I think he's gone.


I would add Bob Melvin to that list. The work he has done in Oakland this year is nothing short of amazing. No proven closer (they are on their third this year), horrible hitting, and mainly rookies in the starting rotation, and a bad start. Yet they are in the mix for a playoff spot.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:29 pm

Bigfist wrote:
TouchEmAllTime wrote:I don't think it helps his cause that there are shit teams in MLB still playing hard right now like San Diego (took 5 of 6 from Pittsburgh the last couple weeks), Colorado (has won 8 of 11), and even the team that just swept us with Wedge of all people at the helm. If you look at the rosters of any of these teams, it's mainly crap, just younger crap than ours, but the fact is they have all been out of the race for months now but they are continuing to play hard and show some fight. IMO Tampa Bay's batting lineup is shit, and they are likely to get yet another wild card. Joe Maddon is one of those select few who does make a difference and gets you another 10 wins, even with 3/4 of the year without Longoria, the guy is amazing. Acta was given a pile of garbage, but it's part on him that they have quit and thus I think he's gone.


I would add Bob Melvin to that list. The work he has done in Oakland this year is nothing short of amazing. No proven closer (they are on their third this year), horrible hitting, and mainly rookies in the starting rotation, and a bad start. Yet they are in the mix for a playoff spot.


Yeah, good call, forgot about them for a moment. Even Clint Hurdle to an extent.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:24 pm

Oakland has pitching talent. We do not. Milone and Parker were centerpieces of the Gonzalez and Cahill deals. Cespedes was a good signing, but they got lucky that he's been as good as he has. Billy Beane deserves the credit there. Melvin just fills out the lineup card with who Beane wants to play.

On Pittsburgh, does Clint Hurdle have anything to do with Jason Grilli's prominence as a setup man? I don't think he's the reason McCutchen was leading the MVP race until this latest rough patch. We don't have a McCutchen. Huntington went out and got James McDonald when his value was pretty low. He's been excellent. We passed on Burnett, they didn't.

Both teams' GMs had better offseasons than ours did.

And this is coming from a guy who in the Clint Hurdle camp when we hired Acta.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:42 pm

I don't think Acta should be canned, but the front office has to either can him or themselves.

The earlier point on Alomar is very good and I agree it's the last chance for him before he leaves for greener pastures. But would Alomar even accept this job with the front office failing to assemble/acquire players and then using the manager as a scapegoat? I don't think Alomar takes the job if there isn't a change in the front office and philosophy.

At this point with nothing to get excited about in Sept. I think the best a die-hard fan can do is root for losses, get a better draft pick and hope nobody gets hurt. Another 11 game losing streak will get front office heads rolling. When they assemble a cast of lack-luster at best options to fill gaping holes and also fail to notice they assembled a roster that mostly hit from the left side of the plate they shouldn't just blame the manager for trotting out a cast of players that have no business being at this level.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:52 pm

I have a problem with the school of thought that a manager makes no difference. If that were the case, why not just get some guy off the street, pay him 60 thousand a year, and do what the GM tells him to do? I think there is a lot more to it than that. Could Miller Huggins win with Cleveland talent? Of course not. What could be asked, though, is would they be this awful with Huggins in charge?

And I am one who really wants Manny to stay. I think Dolan wants him to stay too. But reality says if the present trend continues, then Manny will be let go.

Of course, the bigger question is what do we do with Antonetti? As correctly pointed out, Milone and Parker were obtained in trades. But we had much more valuable trading chips than those two (Cahill and Gonzalez), yet failed to produce anyone legit except Masterson. That does fall on Antonetti (and Shapiro, of course).
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:18 pm

Hate to hire Alomar, cause that would take him away from him "tutoring our young catchers" which is alledgedly very valuable...
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby andrew6586 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:48 pm

You're all fools. Cheap ass Dolan has already paid two managers at once one time. Do you really think he will do it again?

Seriously, I think he gets the boot because they are about to have a fire sale next trade deadline anyway. They need to bring in a manager while we still have a couple (and only a couple) decent players.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:54 pm

One of the media types at the charity event tonight tweeted that Paul Dolan said the Indians have had success, they just haven't had enough.

If true, that's certain to become on the most ignominious quotes in Cleveland sports history.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:12 pm

Indians CEO Paul Dolan, on job security of Acta/Antonetti/Shapiro: "We all have a lot of work to do, but their jobs aren't at stake."

From Twitter.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:43 pm

Regardless of who they keep in the FO or as skipper, the bottom line is that they have to blow the team up or we're gonna be looking at 2-4 years before the "Lindor Wave" arrives along with the other Bud Grant draft classes.

Keep Kipnis, Santana, and Chiz, but trade Droob's, Choo, Perez, and maybe even Justin and Ubaldo. Get yourself restocked with guys (AA/AAA) that can mesh with the current MLB youth, and still be around when the Grant crop matures.

Only way we address the need for each: 2 corner Of'ers, 2 starters, and 2 1b/DH

Hold your nose and sign some filler guys on $2 MIL 1 year deals to replace the parts you lost. Lose 100 games in 2013, play .500 ball in 2014, and contend in 2015 "the year of the Lindor."

Best case senario IMHO. ::doh::
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:13 pm

You are all jumping to conclusions. The problem was Radinsky. He is gone. One off season and a spring training
under whatever the new pitching coach's name is, free parking, fireworks, dollar dog night..we'll be good.
Manny stays.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:23 pm

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/08/i ... -safe.html


Indians CEO: Front Office, Acta's Jobs Are Safe
By Mark Polishuk [August 23, 2012 at 8:06pm CST]
Speaking at a charity event on Thursday, Indians CEO Paul Dolan told reporters (including Dennis Manoloff of the Cleveland Plain Dealer) that he had no plans to relieve manager Manny Acta, general manager Chris Antonetti or team president Mark Shapiro of their duties.

"We all have a lot of work to do, but their jobs aren't at stake in this,'' Dolan said. "As I sit here today, I have no intent to make any changes. I have to understand what's happened. I'm not going to have that understanding today. Hopefully, sometime in this offseason, we'll be able to assess and move from there.''

"We had a team threatening to make the playoffs that has collapsed. We have to understand what happened, and I'm not going to make judgments on that right now. It's going to take more time to assess what we have, what we need, and what we're capable of doing.''

The comments echo statements made by Dolan on August 9, though the Indians' slide has gotten worse since, with 10 losses in their last 12 games.  The Indians are 7-26 since July 18, a stretch that included an 11-game losing streak and an ongoing eight-game losing streak.  The Tribe were close to contending in the AL Central and wild card races and didn't make any major acquisitions before the trade deadline, though Dolan didn't think that was the season for the collapse.

"I doubt it was demoralizing to the team,'' Dolan said. "Most teams I know are glad when they're kept together like that. We were very aggressive in looking for something that could help the team. I'm not convinced, given what's happened, that anything we might have done would have made a material difference.''

Shapiro and Acta are both under contract through the 2013 season and Antonetti already said that Acta will return as manager next year.  Antonetti's contract reportedly runs through at least the 2014 season, according to the Plain Dealer's Terry Pluto.  Since all of these deals are relatively close to completion already, it stands to reason that Dolan would give his staff another year to right the ship, especially since the Tribe weren't expected to be much more than borderline contenders this season anyway.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby andrew6586 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:40 pm

pod2dawg wrote:You are all jumping to conclusions. The problem was Radinsky. He is gone. One off season and a spring training
under whatever the new pitching coach's name is, free parking, fireworks, dollar dog night..we'll be good.
Manny stays.

I've been saying all season that the only thing holding this team back is a long reliever.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby 1Perry » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:14 am

We all have a lot of work to do, but their jobs aren't at stake in this,'' Dolan said. "As I sit here today, I have no intent to make any changes. I have to understand what's happened. I'm not going to have that understanding today. Hopefully, sometime in this offseason, we'll be able to assess and move from there.''

If this was a different owner I would say that this was wishy washy support at best. Being Dolan, I would guess he has to wait on total reciepts to make a decision.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Bigfist » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:46 am

Well, if what we hear from Dolan is true then, guess we will stay the course. If Dolan thinks attendance sucked this year, wait until he gets a look at it next year.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:14 am

Bigfist wrote:Well, if what we hear from Dolan is true then, guess we will stay the course. If Dolan thinks attendance sucked this year, wait until he gets a look at it next year.


Yeah, and if Perez remains, and has anything to say about the fans, it could get really ugly.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:40 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:"We all have a lot of work to do, but their jobs aren't at stake in this,'' Dolan said. "As I sit here today, I have no intent to make any changes. I have to understand what's happened. I'm not going to have that understanding today. Hopefully, sometime in this offseason, we'll be able to assess and move from there.''


Ooh! Ooh! Can I help? Let's see... oh right, you let Mirabelli screw the draft for too long, got hung out to dry when the rest of MLB caught on to Shapiro restocking his minors with their prospects, and to top it all off you put all your cards in running STO headlong against FoxSports while other smaller-market franchises are literally making billions out of FSN. Money you could've put into improving the franchise instead of continually crying poor.

But that would put the blame squarely on your family's business ineptness, so instead you'll shitcan Manny Acta and hope Sandy's glow will somehow convince the mass of fans still thinking Clinton is President and Pearl Jam is relevant into coming back. Then again, I really can't complain because Manny deserves better than this and those fans need one last slap of reality.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:50 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/08/indians-ceo-manager-front-office-jobs-are-safe.html


That was as painfully tedious to read as I expected.

How would the management of this franchise fly on the coast?
I think when the pros and cons of buying the Indians were written down by the Dolans before they bought the team, one of the pros must have been, "Well, it's not New York. Nobody really expects us to be good that often."

If they told the truth, the Dolans would say: "The fans are engaged. It is understandable that they were skeptical to start the season. We faded last year, and made no significant changes in the offseason. The fans were right. We were not equipped to contend. We failed them in the offseason, and we failed them at the deadline. Our division was winnable, and we made no significant moves to contend down the stretch. We regressed while our rivals bolstered their rosters. The way this season played out was unacceptable, yet predictable. We are reviewing all aspects of the franchise as we determine the steps to take to make sure it does not happen again."

I wouldn't care if it is only a written statement, in comic sans.

Acta has commented on the holes in the lineup. He knew they were there prior to the collapse, as did we. And as did the Dolans and the FO.

They need to be in front of this, to own it, before anger hardens more fully into apathy.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby jb » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:39 pm

Manny knows that you know that he knows that you know the team blows and there's not a damn thing he can do.

I could care less about Manny Acta but firing him would only be the latest joke on this FO. Tony laRussa couldn't help this bunch.

When is Chris Perez Apprciation day?
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:28 am

jb wrote:
When is Chris Perez Apprciation day?



It will be as soon as we can get the "Get your Dick out of your Mouth!" T-shirts made
Alex White: Just like School on Sunday......No Class.
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby jb » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:49 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
jb wrote:
When is Chris Perez Apprciation day?



It will be as soon as we can get the "Get your Dick out of your Mouth!" T-shirts made



Based on the attendance it may have been last night.

Your theme would seem to suggest there will be no coinciding dollar dog night?
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:20 am

They're gonna have to have Dollar Dog Night/Fireworks every home game if they want anyone to come. Maybe the Indians can rank 13th out of 14 in total attendance at the end of the year
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Re: Does Acta survive this?

Unread postby jb » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:44 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
jb wrote:
When is Chris Perez Apprciation day?



It will be as soon as we can get the "Get your Dick out of your Mouth!" T-shirts made



You know, to a heckler who is obviously yelling at him that doesn't even make any sense.
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