11 wins

[Gradysmanldy]

Also, no one was sad to see Hillis walk; he was an enormous cancer last year in the locker room, and there's no chance he stays healthy as the feature back for more than a year or so.

EDIT: Why the feck am I even discussing this again....

[jb]

The story I heard was that the Browns were ready to match the Redskins' offer for RGIII but wanted to see Weeden's pro day first. And after seeing Weeden make every throw with accuracy and velocity, they told the Rams to pound sand, figuring Weeden would be there for them at #22 and feeling he was every bit the prospect of RGIII.

One thing you can't do anymore is criticize the Browns' drafting. Just look at the what I call "WTF" picks - picks that made draft parties everywhere groan. 2010 - TJ Ward. Solid if not good thumping safety. Everyone thought Taylor Mays was the obvious pick there and now we all know Taylor Mays is horrible. 2010 - Montario Hardesty. I think his explosive potential was well on display, finally, last night. 2011 - Phil Taylor. Seriously disruptive in the inside. 2011 - Greg Little. Quietly has become our #1 receiver. 2011 - Jordan Cameron. "Who???" was the cry, but he's shown flashes of being truly disruptive in the seam as he's a tremendous athlete. 2012 - Mitchell Schwartz. Absolutely mauled the Pack last night. 2012 - John Hughes. Another head scratching groaner, but this kid is a rock and will make our run D a lot tougher.

Point being, we finally have a crew that can identify talent and develop it, and it's starting to show. All the old adages and preconceptions about the Browns are fun to throw around, but may, in fact, be invalid.

The true downside here is that it's going to suck coming up with jokes and things to bitch about when the team performs well on the field and wins 11 games.

Who believes?

Have at it Eye.

[peeker643]

All comes down to me whether Weeden has an elite NFL QB mind. I would hope that he'll get to the point where he comes to the line, ID's the defense, recognizes single coverage somewhere (or a mismatch/zone to exploit) and makes a good throw if given time.

That's where 'elite' will happen for Weeden and I recognize it will take more than 3 quarters for him to do it, likely more than this season unless he's some sort of prodigy. He doesn't have the physical tools in terms of legs and mobility to make it to elite by keeping plays alive and he doesn't currently have the receivers to bail him out either.

There will be plenty of time to judge him as he gets time. And I'm still not sure with his supporting cast and Pat Surmur around that we'll be able to do it. Colt McCoy walks like and quacks like a back-up QB IMO. But like Weeden I'm not sure he's ever been in a system/organization that's able to get the most from him either.

It will be interesting if that changes too.

[jb]

You'd really take Weeden and Richardson over RG3 and Hillis?

[e0y2e3]

Duh, Holmes and Heckert draft QBs based on affirmative action quotas. Since there are a few succesfull young black QBs in the league now they opted to give the short rednecks a shot with Colt and now The Gingers get their shot.

[Hikohadon]

All comes down to me whether Weeden has an elite NFL QB mind. I would hope that he'll get to the point where he comes to the line, ID's the defense, recognizes single coverage somewhere (or a mismatch/zone to exploit) and makes a good throw if given time.

That's where 'elite' will happen for Weeden and I recognize it will take more than 3 quarters for him to do it, likely more than this season unless he's some sort of prodigy. He doesn't have the physical tools in terms of legs and mobility to make it to elite by keeping plays alive and he doesn't currently have the receivers to bail him out either.

There will be plenty of time to judge him as he gets time. And I'm still not sure with his supporting cast and Pat Surmur around that we'll be able to do it. Colt McCoy walks like and quacks like a back-up QB IMO. But like Weeden I'm not sure he's ever been in a system/organization that's able to get the most from him either.

It will be interesting if that changes too.

Look at that, agree with all there.

[Gradysmanldy]

Off rant: Made my heart sing when Weeden saw the rush up the middle, stepped up, took the shot, and completed a tough throw 15 yards downfield in traffic, in the 2nd quarter.

Definitely got better as the game wore on.

</koolaid>

[jb]

All comes down to me whether Weeden has an elite NFL QB mind.

What constitutes "elite" ?

[mattvan1]

The story I heard was that the Browns were ready to match the Redskins' offer for RGIII but wanted to see Weeden's pro day first. And after seeing Weeden make every throw with accuracy and velocity, they told the Rams to pound sand, figuring Weeden would be there for them at #22 and feeling he was every bit the prospect of RGIII.

One thing you can't do anymore is criticize the Browns' drafting. Just look at the what I call "WTF" picks - picks that made draft parties everywhere groan. 2010 - TJ Ward. Solid if not good thumping safety. Everyone thought Taylor Mays was the obvious pick there and now we all know Taylor Mays is horrible. 2010 - Montario Hardesty. I think his explosive potential was well on display, finally, last night. 2011 - Phil Taylor. Seriously disruptive in the inside. 2011 - Greg Little. Quietly has become our #1 receiver. 2011 - Jordan Cameron. "Who???" was the cry, but he's shown flashes of being truly disruptive in the seam as he's a tremendous athlete. 2012 - Mitchell Schwartz. Absolutely mauled the Pack last night. 2012 - John Hughes. Another head scratching groaner, but this kid is a rock and will make our run D a lot tougher.

Point being, we finally have a crew that can identify talent and develop it, and it's starting to show. All the old adages and preconceptions about the Browns are fun to throw around, but may, in fact, be invalid.

The true downside here is that it's going to suck coming up with jokes and things to bitch about when the team performs well on the field and wins 11 games.

Who believes?

Let me guess

You're Chris Spielman and you approved this message?

[peeker643]

All comes down to me whether Weeden has an elite NFL QB mind.

What constitutes "elite" ?

Like porn, I guess. Know it when you see it.

When he has the ability to get to the line and change out of a play and into another because his read is right and he gets a matchup he wants, then I'll know. When he checks out of a run from one formation or one side into a run that favors a certain blitz.

I think there will be an easy differentiation between that and the alternative, which is to look dazed and confused and throw balls into coverage.

And yes, I understand that will also be determined in part by Shurmur's/Chilly's offense, but you'll know it and see it either way.

And t'll take time. He ain't playing Missouri any more. First he needs to see a ton of it, then he needs to recognize and then he needs to get into the right formation and call. All in about 10 seconds.

Doesn't have to be Manning, but he's got to look more like Rodgers than Frye ;-)

[plincoln]

Allow me to try to reprise Robert Wuhl on the infield...

Isn't the crux the same ole same ole that the perception of Weeds as a prospect (yes, I said prospect, Peeker, easy ) varries in the eyes of Hiko and I, and Peeker? I mean Seattle? Seattle? Be great if we could move past the ancillary "fan boi" vs "FO/playa hatin'" dichotemy that seems linked to this difference of informed opinion but I know as always I ask too much. We all know time will tell.

Other than that, our beloved & favorite interwebs fuckstick is Manny being Manny (and Sonny Jurgenson says "fuck off") and some feelings were again hurt; par for the course.

About all I can add of any remote value is that Lane Atkins is on record that the Browns really, really, really liked Weeds as a prospect in March independant of any other factors. They had him in their sites as a prospect. This would seem to negate the whole panic/desperation line of reasoning. But I know this will not be convincing on this forum.

Carry on.

[....]

Point being, we finally have a crew that can identify talent and develop it, and it's starting to show. All the old adages and preconceptions about the Browns are fun to throw around, but may, in fact, be invalid.

The true downside here is that it's going to suck coming up with jokes and things to bitch about when the team performs well on the field and wins 11 games.

Who believes?

Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter....

[pup]

The story I heard was that the Browns were ready to match the Redskins' offer for RGIII but wanted to see Weeden's pro day first. And after seeing Weeden make every throw with accuracy and velocity, they told the Rams to pound sand, figuring Weeden would be there for them at #22 and feeling he was every bit the prospect of RGIII.

One thing you can't do anymore is criticize the Browns' drafting. Just look at the what I call "WTF" picks - picks that made draft parties everywhere groan. 2010 - TJ Ward. Solid if not good thumping safety. Everyone thought Taylor Mays was the obvious pick there and now we all know Taylor Mays is horrible. 2010 - Montario Hardesty. I think his explosive potential was well on display, finally, last night. 2011 - Phil Taylor. Seriously disruptive in the inside. 2011 - Greg Little. Quietly has become our #1 receiver. 2011 - Jordan Cameron. "Who???" was the cry, but he's shown flashes of being truly disruptive in the seam as he's a tremendous athlete. 2012 - Mitchell Schwartz. Absolutely mauled the Pack last night. 2012 - John Hughes. Another head scratching groaner, but this kid is a rock and will make our run D a lot tougher.

Point being, we finally have a crew that can identify talent and develop it, and it's starting to show. All the old adages and preconceptions about the Browns are fun to throw around, but may, in fact, be invalid.

The true downside here is that it's going to suck coming up with jokes and things to bitch about when the team performs well on the field and wins 11 games.

Who believes?

Let me guess

You're Chris Spielman and you approved this message?

Not sure if you are doubting the top of this, or it matters one way or the other.

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

[mattvan1]

Let me guess

You're Chris Spielman and you approved this message?

Not sure if you are doubting the top of this, or it matters one way or the other.

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

No. I believe the Weeden love and accept what Lars writes about how it went down

Just poking fun at the irrational exuberance over UPS driveers that managed to get 25 snaps in X-games. Hope he's right, but before I start fantasizing about The Bone Lady I just might want to see a few real games before I am ready to call the Hughes, Hardesty, Little, Gordon, Swartz, Weeden, etc etc etc experiments a success.

[Hikohadon]

Let me guess

You're Chris Spielman and you approved this message?

Not sure if you are doubting the top of this, or it matters one way or the other.

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

No. I believe the Weeden love and accept what Lars writes about how it went down

Just poking fun at the irrational exuberance over UPS driveers that managed to get 25 snaps in X-games. Hope he's right, but before I start fantasizing about The Bone Lady I just might want to see a few real games before I am ready to call the Hughes, Hardesty, Little, Gordon, Swartz, Weeden, etc etc etc experiments a success.

When one thinks on it, it does seem incredibly unlikely that every single one of these recent draftees/undrafted free agents that are taking on important roles on this team will not suck.

This has to be the youngest team in the NFL. If it ain't the youngest, it has to be the most inexperienced.

It's also the first Browns team in a long time that is more talented (physically) than your average Big 10 team.

If even 75% of these guys hit, this team will be a freakin' dynamo in a couple years. The Heckert Way will become the NFL norm, with teams eschewing any kind of veterans for raw but high-potential rookies. That is obviously a pipe dream, and I will eradicate it from the edge of my consciousness.

Let's list the players on the team that have 5 or more years experience, shall we?

Oniel Cousins (for whom I will invent a time machine so the Browns can go back and cut him yesterday), John Greco, Ahtyba Rubin (a key one), Reggie Hodges, Brandon Jackson, Dimitri Patterson, Joe Thomas (another key one), Usama Young (probably doesn't make the roster), Chris Gocong, D'Qwell Jackson (also important), Frostee Rucker, Ray Ventrone, Josh Cribbs, Alex Smith (likely gone), Ben Watson, Seneca Wallace, Sheldon Brown, Scott Fujita, Juqua Parker, and Phil Dawson.

That's 20 players with 5 or more years experience - most non-essential - versus a whopping 70 players with less than 5 years (27 freakin' rookies).

[mattvan1]

Let me guess

You're Chris Spielman and you approved this message?

Not sure if you are doubting the top of this, or it matters one way or the other.

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

No. I believe the Weeden love and accept what Lars writes about how it went down

Just poking fun at the irrational exuberance over UPS driveers that managed to get 25 snaps in X-games. Hope he's right, but before I start fantasizing about The Bone Lady I just might want to see a few real games before I am ready to call the Hughes, Hardesty, Little, Gordon, Swartz, Weeden, etc etc etc experiments a success.

When one thinks on it, it does seem incredibly unlikely that every single one of these recent draftees/undrafted free agents that are taking on important roles on this team will not suck.

This has to be the youngest team in the NFL. If it ain't the youngest, it has to be the most inexperienced.

It's also the first Browns team in a long time that is more talented (physically) than your average Big 10 team.

If even 75% of these guys hit, this team will be a freakin' dynamo in a couple years. The Heckert Way will become the NFL norm, with teams eschewing any kind of veterans for raw but high-potential rookies. That is obviously a pipe dream, and I will eradicate it from the edge of my consciousness.

Let's list the players on the team that have 5 or more years experience, shall we?

Oniel Cousins (for whom I will invent a time machine so the Browns can go back and cut him yesterday), John Greco, Ahtyba Rubin (a key one), Reggie Hodges, Brandon Jackson, Dimitri Patterson, Joe Thomas (another key one), Usama Young (probably doesn't make the roster), Chris Gocong, D'Qwell Jackson (also important), Frostee Rucker, Ray Ventrone, Josh Cribbs, Alex Smith (likely gone), Ben Watson, Seneca Wallace, Sheldon Brown, Scott Fujita, Juqua Parker, and Phil Dawson.

That's 20 players with 5 or more years experience - most non-essential - versus a whopping 70 players with less than 5 years (27 freakin' rookies).

Well played, sir.

That is why, to me, 11 wins is simply not plausible. But, depending on how this year finishes up and how well the youg-ins develop, 2013 and beyond could be a lot of fun to watch.

[pod2dawg]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That.

Young.

Growing pains but more pieces than we've had in 9 years.

[Fire Marshall Bill 2.0]

[LakeErieWarriors]

Haven't seen this level of optimism for the Browns on the boards since I've been here over the past year.

Didn't think this level of optimism for the Browns was possible outta you guys!

I definitely think it's warranted--I'm always overly optimistic for this team. In the short-run, I think their inexperience really comes out the first few weeks of the regular season. I hope their talent trumps everything else and they look good down the stretch. Right now, with the new ownership and the young talent that's in place, the next few years actually look really bright.

But right now, you guys sound like this:

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

The Heckert Way will become the NFL norm, with teams eschewing any kind of veterans for raw but high-potential rookies.

I don't think we can call it the Heckert Way in as much as we can call it Heckert's Stocking Of The Cobweb-Filled Pantry.

[leadpipe]

Allow me to try to reprise Robert Wuhl on the infield...

Isn't the crux the same ole same ole that the perception of Weeds as a prospect (yes, I said prospect, Peeker, easy ) varries in the eyes of Hiko and I, and Peeker? I mean Seattle? Seattle? Be great if we could move past the ancillary "fan boi" vs "FO/playa hatin'" dichotemy that seems linked to this difference of informed opinion but I know as always I ask too much. We all know time will tell.

Other than that, our beloved & favorite interwebs fuckstick is Manny being Manny (and Sonny Jurgenson says "fuck off") and some feelings were again hurt; par for the course.

About all I can add of any remote value is that Lane Atkins is on record that the Browns really, really, really liked Weeds as a prospect in March independant of any other factors. They had him in their sites as a prospect. This would seem to negate the whole panic/desperation line of reasoning. But I know this will not be convincing on this forum.

Carry on.

The story I heard was that the Browns were ready to match the Redskins' offer for RGIII but wanted to see Weeden's pro day first. And after seeing Weeden make every throw with accuracy and velocity, they told the Rams to pound sand, figuring Weeden would be there for them at #22 and feeling he was every bit the prospect of RGIII.

One thing you can't do anymore is criticize the Browns' drafting. Just look at the what I call "WTF" picks - picks that made draft parties everywhere groan. 2010 - TJ Ward. Solid if not good thumping safety. Everyone thought Taylor Mays was the obvious pick there and now we all know Taylor Mays is horrible. 2010 - Montario Hardesty. I think his explosive potential was well on display, finally, last night. 2011 - Phil Taylor. Seriously disruptive in the inside. 2011 - Greg Little. Quietly has become our #1 receiver. 2011 - Jordan Cameron. "Who???" was the cry, but he's shown flashes of being truly disruptive in the seam as he's a tremendous athlete. 2012 - Mitchell Schwartz. Absolutely mauled the Pack last night. 2012 - John Hughes. Another head scratching groaner, but this kid is a rock and will make our run D a lot tougher.

Point being, we finally have a crew that can identify talent and develop it, and it's starting to show. All the old adages and preconceptions about the Browns are fun to throw around, but may, in fact, be invalid.

The true downside here is that it's going to suck coming up with jokes and things to bitch about when the team performs well on the field and wins 11 games.

Who believes?

Is it still OK to like what Heckerts done recently, but HATE the Browns first round this year?

Cause that's exactly where I'm at.

What do I know, but FWIW, here's why I'm there; Aside from size and arm strength, not all that easy to distinguish Weeden's on field performance from anyone in that joke conference including McCoy, Chase Daniel or any of the 95 guys the Mad Scientist had running roughshod over those teams. Very concerned about pocket presence, elusiveness and turnovers versus defenses which have more than a maximum of two good defenders. Hell, even a guy like Bradford - who I understand the jury is still out on...it's not lookin' all that great right now. Doesn't mean someone from that Big 12 can't overcome all this, it's just I'm not to confident, cause I haven't seen it. And age I'm not factoring in, cause I don't think it matters much. I will say that if Andrew Luck was 28, he'da still been number one, with the exception of possibly RG3.

I don't like Richardson cause I think the position is close to the bottom of the ladder in importance. Yes, I think he'll be a good "running back," yes, anyone good helps THIS team. Doesn't mean he goes much in the way of winning Super Bowls. As has been discussed ad nauseum, terrible rushing teams and mediocre backs are winning BIG in this league. Adrian Peterson is not. Would have rather seen that high a pick go to one of the three things that matter (and only two were in play for this years pick in that slot) The three things that matter are QB, rushing the QB and protecting the QB. Good teams can afford high picks on window dressing, poor teams cannot ILO.

Now, selfishly I'll agree with Hiko. I'm glad Weeden is here cause it least it gives a reason to watch, there's the POSSIBILITY they can start to win if he's for real. The bad news is, by that same rationale, if they'da taken Tanneyhill 4, I woulda hated it, but this very day I'd selfishly like it for the same reason I just gave concerning Weeden.

Hiko also brings up a real important point in the other thread - the Packers are the epitomy of the league now. Without their QB they stink. With him they almost run the table. They have two of the big three, and the third has been neutrazlized by the QB's mobility and release. Bad defenses and teams that can't run the ball a foot are making Super Bowls. Let an idiot like Rex Ryan "ground and pound" in the f'ing NFL 2012. You wanna follow Rex Ryan and the offensive coordinator they hired from Miami who couldn't score points for four years? Or you wanna play to WIN? Give Alexander to the Jets and he improves their "ground and Pound" and they'll still lose time and time again to the Patriots and Shane Vereen, or whatever hump they throw back there.

So, I'm down with the Browns recent drafts, can't hit a dinger with every pick, but I think the first round was a mistake.

[Gradysmanldy]

Only reasons I didnt like this draft were position related; thought you could have gotten better value later. Ive systematically hated half of Heckert's picks though, and half of the ones I couldn't stand have turned into great pros, or at least guys with high potential.

At 4 this year, I just didn't see a better pick, and I found that unfortunate. Claiborne would have been my next choice, and that's even more of a luxury than the RB (second DB) and could be especially moot with the development of Wade and Skrine. Didn't care about the trade up because we were already integrating SO MANY rookies into the mix, those picks were just fodder.

Thought Weeden was a bit of a reach, but I get it.

Team can strike from any part of the field. Physical outside receivers, speed to stretch the field, athleticism to go get it over the middle in traffic. (Gordon, Cameron, Little, Benjamin)

More talent (on paper) than I've seen since the return, and the arm to get it there. (Decision making will be up and down, but he's thrown a damn gorgeous ball this preseason)

I'm 100% with Peeker on this one; once he adds the capability to read defenses to his skillset, he'll be capable of being elite. If not, he's Flacco. He's already shown the ability to make good throws when pressured, and he's hit underneath and down the field. (So he's already a step ahead of Anderson)

Depth at every position on the field right now except D-line (too young/early to tell) and Linebacker. (which is going to be pretty awful)

This is going to be a very entertaining year. It's going to make everyone crazy watching the highs and lows, but I think we'll be better than the pundits think. Not 11 wins better, but certainly better than 0-4 wins.

[justmebd]

Reading a lot of good points.

I like Weeden, but I feel if he isn't "great" out of the gate, new ownership and a new front office will just move on again. That's my big fear.

I am happy to see the defense is faster, even if it's not really an elite unit yet, you can teach that. You can't teach speed.

On the offense, for the first time in literally years, we finally look like we're trying to go downfield and score some friggin' points. Even if our first team wasn't very good at closing the deal, you could see the intentions were honest.

My biggest complaint with the Mangini/Daboll non-offense offense and Shurmur's one man/no-trick dog and pony show last year was those units never even looked like they had any intention of gaining yards.

The Daboll/Mangini offense was too damn timid to advance, especially with Mangini's penchant for just wanting to "take what the defense gives us," and Shurmur last year often looked too confused to even know which side of the ball the team was on at any particular point in time.

So, yeah, I'm a little more optimistic this year, except when it comes to wins. To me there is little doubt this team still will have trouble winning four games, but I am getting excited for 2013 and beyond, especially with an owner who cares now sitting in the Berea.

I'm still setting the over/under on Shurmur being fired at Week 13. Andy Reid will be sitting in Berea come 2013. Between Joe Banner coming here and the troubles simmering beneath the surface in Phili, it just makes sense that is the direction Haslem will go. You heard it here first . . . unless you didn't.

[Hikohadon]

I just don't see Banner handing personnel power over to Reid (or any coach) bc that would just be replicating the situation he was in in Philly. I think he'll insist on his GM (be it Heckert or someone else) having personnel say.

Which makes it less likely to me that Reid would want to come here.

I don't think it's ludicrous to surmise that Banner might be hoping that Shurmur works out. He's familiar with the Shurminator and all the other coaches already.

[mattvan1]

I'm still setting the over/under on Shurmur being fired at Week 13. Andy Reid will be sitting in Berea come 2013. Between Joe Banner coming here and the troubles simmering beneath the surface in Phili, it just makes sense that is the direction Haslem will go. You heard it here first . . . unless you didn't.

Not so fast, my friend

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/157808925.html

I already don't like Banner, and he's not even here yet.

[Hikohadon]

I'm still setting the over/under on Shurmur being fired at Week 13. Andy Reid will be sitting in Berea come 2013. Between Joe Banner coming here and the troubles simmering beneath the surface in Phili, it just makes sense that is the direction Haslem will go. You heard it here first . . . unless you didn't.

Not so fast, my friend

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/157808925.html

I already don't like Banner, and he's not even here yet.

That's a cheery read.

Concur with the dislike. But I think Banner's thing has always been that he doesn't care if people like him. If he gets the job done, he can be as big a dick as he wants.

Just annoying to read about how Banner didn't get along with X and Banner didn't get along with Y. I know perfectly well this stuff is conjecture, but if true... ugh.

Rather they get rid of Holmgren and turn the Presidency over to Heckert.

[FUDU]

Doesn't Haslam have a good friendship with Nick Saban?

[googleeph2]

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

This may be bad form, but which Cleveland Fan forum poster is he, really?

[mattvan1]

Doesn't Haslam have a good friendship with Nick Saban?

Not sure about Saban, but I know for a fact that Haslam and Bill Cowher were getting lap dances at Christie's and afterwards they shared a burrito at Chipotle.

Fact.

[pup]

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

This may be bad form, but which Cleveland Fan forum poster is he, really?

Huh?

[justmebd]

I'm still setting the over/under on Shurmur being fired at Week 13. Andy Reid will be sitting in Berea come 2013. Between Joe Banner coming here and the troubles simmering beneath the surface in Phili, it just makes sense that is the direction Haslem will go. You heard it here first . . . unless you didn't.

Not so fast, my friend

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/157808925.html

I already don't like Banner, and he's not even here yet.

That's a cheery read.

Concur with the dislike. But I think Banner's thing has always been that he doesn't care if people like him. If he gets the job done, he can be as big a dick as he wants.

Just annoying to read about how Banner didn't get along with X and Banner didn't get along with Y. I know perfectly well this stuff is conjecture, but if true... ugh.

Rather they get rid of Holmgren and turn the Presidency over to Heckert.

Hmmmm. Well, forget Reid then.

I still think Shurmur is gone. The dude just can't get the Romeo Crennel look off of his face.

[jb]

All comes down to me whether Weeden has an elite NFL QB mind.

What constitutes "elite" ?

Like porn, I guess. Know it when you see it.

When he has the ability to get to the line and change out of a play and into another because his read is right and he gets a matchup he wants, then I'll know. When he checks out of a run from one formation or one side into a run that favors a certain blitz.

I think there will be an easy differentiation between that and the alternative, which is to look dazed and confused and throw balls into coverage.

And yes, I understand that will also be determined in part by Shurmur's/Chilly's offense, but you'll know it and see it either way.

And t'll take time. He ain't playing Missouri any more. First he needs to see a ton of it, then he needs to recognize and then he needs to get into the right formation and call. All in about 10 seconds.

Doesn't have to be Manning, but he's got to look more like Rodgers than Frye ;-)

I can onlty quibble with this point here, Peeker. By it's very denotative definition, "elite" means top 3 or 5 out of 32. Putting 1/3rd of QBs into "elite" class is too liberal.

What you described to me falls in a contiuum of highly functional to very good. And I see absolutely no reason why it is the apex of wild eyed irrational enthusiam to project Weeds as a prospect to that level. In today's NFL, relative butt-moneys are tossing for 3,500 to 4,000 yards. Guys who aren't "elite" threw for 5K in my opinion (I wouldn't call Stafford "elite" yet). If Norm Sneed were playing today, he'd throw for 4K and that was once reserved for career years for HOFers until about 2 seasons ago.

You don't need to be blessed with an "elite" QB to win a championship. Eli is not "elite" although he does play fo rthe Elite Giants. You need to be a very good QB in a good passing system with a team on a defensive roll.

Take GML's throw in of disparaging Joe Flacco. If you watched Flacco over his 2011 body of work and don't think he's good enough to win a super bowl, you are either not wtahcing or your mind is closed. I believe that all things being equal, the Texans are the team to beat in the NFC. That's becasue Shaub is good enough, highly functioing, and they have a very good TEAM.

having said that, the Browns will in all likelihood not approach highly functioning on O this season. Too many things stacked against them. So I'm with you on all you dscribe Weeds and the WR's need to learn. I am not optimistic about 2012 W's. I am optimistic about the right path.

[mattvan1]

I can onlty quibble with this point here, Peeker. By it's very denotative definition, "elite" means top 3 or 5 out of 32. Putting 1/3rd of QBs into "elite" class is too liberal.

What you described to me falls in a contiuum of highly functional to very good. And I see absolutely no reason why it is the apex of wild eyed irrational enthusiam to project Weeds as a prospect to that level. In today's NFL, relative butt-moneys are tossing for 3,500 to 4,000 yards. Guys who aren't "elite" threw for 5K in my opinion (I wouldn't call Stafford "elite" yet). If Norm Sneed were playing today, he'd throw for 4K and that was once reserved for career years for HOFers until about 2 seasons ago.

You don't need to be blessed with an "elite" QB to win a championship. Eli is not "elite" although he does play fo rthe Elite Giants. You need to be a very good QB in a good passing system with a team on a defensive roll.

Take GML's throw in of disparaging Joe Flacco. If you watched Flacco over his 2011 body of work and don't think he's good enough to win a super bowl, you are either not wtahcing or your mind is closed. I believe that all things being equal, the Texans are the team to beat in the NFC. That's becasue Shaub is good enough, highly functioing, and they have a very good TEAM.

having said that, the Browns will in all likelihood not approach highly functioning on O this season. Too many things stacked against them. So I'm with you on all you dscribe Weeds and the WR's need to learn. I am not optimistic about 2012 W's. I am optimistic about the right path.

While I agree with nearly everything, I'll say this for Manning the Younger - he may be wildly inconsistent, but he pretty much rocked it out in Q4s and the playoffs. So if he's not elite then he played waaaay over his head in Jan/Feb.

Maybe you don't need an elite QB to win, but at the very least you need someone who has the capability to catch fire at the end of the year.

[jb]

While I agree with nearly everything, I'll say this for Manning the Younger - he may be wildly inconsistent, but he pretty much rocked it out in Q4s and the playoffs. So if he's not elite then he played waaaay over his head in Jan/Feb.

Maybe you don't need an elite QB to win, but at the very least you need someone who has the capability to catch fire at the end of the year.

IDK that there's contradiction here matt instead of accord. Eli put up what would have been among GoaT passing years by yards in the RS (like Stafford). Hell of a QB. And no one can quarrel with his freakishly good PS's the Gints won the Lombardi. But as far as a top "elite" QB? man, I dunno. Maybe, but gut says prolly not "elite" which I see as exclusive status reserved for Brady, Rogers and Brees. Then I see a group of really good next tier guys, maybe even elite, like Eli, Pig Jen, Stafford, and Rivers (maybe not so much in 2011 for Phil, but body of recent work), and then guys who are either up and comers who need to do this a while (Cam, Flacco) or guys I look at the stats and say to myself "really?" (Romo, Ryan, Shaub).

But in the right circumstance on the right team, all those top 10 guys can win a SB (except Romo ;-) ). And then there's the tier of guys who put up really good numbers but you just look at and doubt, and I still think maybe in the right circumstance they may be able to win the big game, but I have doubts. Alex Smith is a great example. Can you really say the 9ers can't get it done with him?

So this "elite" thing is a tricky business to me. Not yet sure how it playes into true SB contender requirement.

What I will say is yah gotta be better than mark sanchez....

[LarsHancock]

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

This may be bad form, but which Cleveland Fan forum poster is he, really?

I was Boston Butt, only posted about 6 times or so. Lurked mostly. Been wandering the internet like Caine for some time when Rich found me and brought me here as my home.

Just poking fun at the irrational exuberance over UPS driveers that managed to get 25 snaps in X-games. Hope he's right, but before I start fantasizing about The Bone Lady I just might want to see a few real games before I am ready to call the Hughes, Hardesty, Little, Gordon, Swartz, Weeden, etc etc etc experiments a success.

There's always a danger to calling elections early. But the early returns look good, based on the extremely limited exit poll data we have.


Is that a young Woody Hayes there?

Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter....

Let me tell you about this time share property I can get you a good deal on...



Bottom line: 11 wins is probably crazy. There is real hope and talent, and there's a lot going in the right direction. The coaching? Who knows. Hasn't impressed me yet, but has good roots. This team is better than last year, and it will show up on the field.

So we have to ask... what if...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odN5DzV1Uiw&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

Oh, right, we've already asked that...

[mattvan1]

But I can tell you Lars told me that Weeden/RG3/Pro-Day thing about 2 hours before the Browns drafted Weeden.

This may be bad form, but which Cleveland Fan forum poster is he, really?

I was Boston Butt, only posted about 6 times or so. Lurked mostly. Been wandering the internet like Caine for some time when Rich found me and brought me here as my home.

Based on your previous food/cooking/BBQ takes it's obvious that you are a professional - most likely in the business or certainly an expert in those particular fields.

Football prognostication????????

[jb]

I was Boston Butt,

As opposed to Eye, who is Boston ass?

[trsteve1]

yeesh, and I thought I was optimistic with the 7 wins I thought they had a chance at last year with the weak NFC West draw.. (which, btw is why Dalton was able to lead said Bungles to said playoffs, expect a drop in wins for them with this year's NFC East matchup).

I bye that the Steelers are weaker.. or at least not stronger.. potentially same for the Ravens, especially if they keep the injury train rollin'..

but this Browns team has a rookie QB and that is worth a few losses just because you know he is going to make mistakes (in spite of potentially also winning some games).

I think 6-10 is pretty likely...

[General]

Eagles 56-Browns 9. Haslem commits suicide.

[LarsHancock]

Eagles 56-Browns 9. Haslem commits suicide.

You mean just because our top corner is Sheldon Brown who is... old... and we have nobody else at CB worth a crap now that Haden is out for a few games...

...and at LB we have D'Qwell Jackson and .... the first five fans into the game...

...and at DL we have Rubin and John Hughes and.... nobody

Why are you so negative????

(pulls out checkbook)

[Hikohadon]

Eagles 56-Browns 9. Haslem commits suicide.

You mean just because our top corner is Sheldon Brown who is... old... and we have nobody else at CB worth a crap now that Haden is out for a few games...

...and at LB we have D'Qwell Jackson and .... the first five fans into the game...

...and at DL we have Rubin and John Hughes and.... nobody

Why are you so negative????

(pulls out checkbook)

Trevin Wade and Buster Skrine will be no worse than Sheldon Brown.

Which is a backhanded compliment at best, but still...

I'm more worried about OL, where you have 3 backups, 2 of which are hurt, and 1 of which is Oniel Cousins.

[General]

Eagles 56-Browns 9. Haslem commits suicide.

You mean just because our top corner is Sheldon Brown who is... old... and we have nobody else at CB worth a crap now that Haden is out for a few games...

...and at LB we have D'Qwell Jackson and .... the first five fans into the game...

...and at DL we have Rubin and John Hughes and.... nobody

Why are you so negative????

(pulls out checkbook)

Will the 2012 Browns break the record for two way players? As a necessity.

[swerb]

Bump.

[Brandon Weeden]

I'm with ya' Lars. I reckon we're gonna take 11 of these next 15 and make you look like a genius roun' these parts.

Couple weeks when this offense is hotter than a goats butt in a pepper patch, bunch of you'ouns gonna feel really silly.

[peeker643]

^^^^

For a guy who couldn't get out from under the flag before the game and who wouldn't stop lofting balls down the sidelines to a speedy dwarf, this guy seems to get it ok.

Gives me hope.

[Brandon Weeden]

^^^^

For a guy who couldn't get out from under the flag before the game and who wouldn't stop lofting balls down the sidelines to a speedy dwarf, this guy seems to get it ok.

Gives me hope.

I'll tell you what there, that #80, he may be smaller than a tick turd, but that lil sunamabitch is tougher than a 2 dollar steak.

I'm gonna keep gunnin it to him.

[LarsHancock]

great googly moogly

If Weeden is merely terrible and we win that game. But he was worse than terrible. My one fear as stated is that Shurmur really is an idiot, in which case we're completely screwed. One winnable game chalked up to Shurmur's mismanagement of Weeden throughout the preseason. Guy had, what, 10 preseason series? And he's supposed to be ready?

Should be 1-0, stupid Shurmur...

[leadpipe]

great googly moogly

If Weeden is merely terrible and we win that game. But he was worse than terrible. My one fear as stated is that Shurmur really is an idiot, in which case we're completely screwed. One winnable game chalked up to Shurmur's mismanagement of Weeden throughout the preseason. Guy had, what, 10 preseason series? And he's supposed to be ready?

Should be 1-0, stupid Shurmur...

You predicted 11 wins for a team with no quarterback and about the worst coach ever.

From an organization in 2012 that used first round picks on an immobile QB and a running back.

A better question would've been to take 11 wins and make it a true/false question, such as, Will Pat Shurmur ever amass 11 wins as a head coach?

[peeker643]

great googly moogly

If Weeden is merely terrible and we win that game. But he was worse than terrible. My one fear as stated is that Shurmur really is an idiot, in which case we're completely screwed. One winnable game chalked up to Shurmur's mismanagement of Weeden throughout the preseason. Guy had, what, 10 preseason series? And he's supposed to be ready?

Should be 1-0, stupid Shurmur...

You predicted 11 wins for a team with no quarterback and about the worst coach ever.

From an organization in 2012 that used first round picks on an immobile QB and a running back.

A better question would've been to take 11 wins and make it a true/false question, such as, Will Pat Shurmur ever amass 11 wins as a head coach?

I'm taking the Under on the Shurmur 11.

And I could give Lars the "Almost" win on Sunday and still win the bet by 5 games.

But I won't.

[pup]

You might be able to make that over under, will Shur coach 11 more games in the NFL.

[gotribe31]

great googly moogly

If Weeden is merely terrible and we win that game. But he was worse than terrible. My one fear as stated is that Shurmur really is an idiot, in which case we're completely screwed. One winnable game chalked up to Shurmur's mismanagement of Weeden throughout the preseason. Guy had, what, 10 preseason series? And he's supposed to be ready?

Should be 1-0, stupid Shurmur...

You predicted 11 wins for a team with no quarterback and about the worst coach ever.

From an organization in 2012 that used first round picks on an immobile QB and a running back.

A better question would've been to take 11 wins and make it a true/false question, such as, Will Pat Shurmur ever amass 11 wins as a head coach?

False.