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2012 Bucks Season Thread

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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:07 pm

jb wrote:Meatchicken is not overrated. Yes they had some fortune last year, but I would expect them to be better with an influx of trench talent and another year of Denard wrecking havoc and 2nd year under Flintstone.

I always believe Sparty when I see it.


I disagree, I dont see any reason to believe they are better in 2012 than in 2011. They simply will not replace Martin on the Defensive side this season. They have some talent that came in, but its not going to replace what Martin brought to the trenches, not this season. They are weaker at WR as well.

They they might not be much worse this season, but they were the benificiaries of some good breaks to have the season they did in 2011. IMO that was an 8-4 type team last year, and are probably looking at 8-4, 9-3 this season.

I dont know that I would have Nebraska ahead of them but I certainly have MSU as the better team again this year.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:11 pm

danwismar wrote:I've been meaning to throw this out to the board for comment, and this seems like a good time to do it...with the discussion of the relative weaknesses and strengths of this 2012 OSU team....

Interested in hearing what you regulars (and of course others too) think about the Buckeyes vs the rest of the Big Ten this year...since that's the only thing they'll be able to prove on the field...they can't play in Indy, but they have a head-to-head matchup with the three best Legends teams in the reg season

Specifically...take the OSU wide receiver group...arguably the weakest unit on the team. Is there another B1G team with whom you would trade WR units straight up?

How about O-Lines? How about running backs? (where Wisky might have an edge, for example) How about DB's?...linebackers? Comments about other position units welcome.

Feedback also welcome about my B1G Preview rankings of the teams in each Div. ....is Penn State better than the 4th best team in the Leaders? How weak is the leaders Div? How much will PSU drop? Can a Purdue or an Illinois pass PSU in the division?

Is Michigan overrated, or am I nuts to have them behind MSU and Neb in Legends?

Both last years Indy participants will have new starting QB's...who can take advantage and surprise?

(link to Legends preview is at the top of this Leaders article)

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/ohio-sta ... s-division

Have at it.


I'll post on this a little later, I have to get some work done at some point today, lol.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:04 am

Wow Dan that is a great question. It is still pretty early in camp, and I think we have a feel for how the 2 deep is likely to play out (more or less), but I really don't have a feel for what is going to be different and what is going to be better.

Yahoo! just said that tOSU has the #2 DL in the country. I think that is BS until proven otherwise. I think it is a solid DL, but I have no reason to believe it is #2. I really don't like Simon at WDE, he really is not quick enough. With Simon at WDE I don't know where the pass rush comes from. I like Michael Bennett but he is more of a Cam Heyward type. I love Big Hank and he is an active DT, but you really don't want to rely on your pass rush coming right up the middle. Goebel is an adequate NT, but he is not the kind that changes the game. When I look at tOSU's line today with a couple of guys playing in suboptimal positions and no real pass rushers, I think they are just a top tier B1G line, not a top tier national line.

I have to believe the OL is better because they have received some coaching now. I predict false start penalties drop by 80% this year (not just because Shugarts is gone). Hard to say if better = good. I have to think it is good enough in a weak B1G.

Miller is going to be good this year, hell he was good last year.

I don't like tOSU's RB line up. I don't like Hyde, I think he runs soft. I think his numbers will be good, but I think that is a by product of a bad B1G and a good system. I was hoping Dunn would blow the staff away, because we know what we have in Hyde and his ceiling is good (not great).

I think the WRs and secondary will be much improved.

I think LB becomes a point of strength (once Sabino ends up on the bench). Sabino plays soft, but I am optimistic about Shazier, Grant and the youngins.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:25 am

furls wrote:I think LB becomes a point of strength (once Sabino ends up on the bench). Sabino plays soft, but I am optimistic about Shazier, Grant and the youngins.


You have a wierd choice of optimism on the defense IMO.

I am far more confident in the starters and youngins on the DLine turning into a national top 5 unit that I am the LBers will become a point of strength on this team.

We have one player that showed promise in Shazier, a Middle LBer that we essentially have no idea how he will play and has no experience, and the equivilent of a AAAA prospect at Sam in Sabino. Behind them is a couple freshmen who have alot of talent but have no experience in the scheme, which I think young guys are more likely to be OK being clueless on the DL than being clueless at LBer.

We have a ton of athleticism at LBer, I'll give them that. What we have beyond that I don't know.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby jb » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:18 pm

JCoz wrote:
danwismar wrote:I've been meaning to throw this out to the board for comment, and this seems like a good time to do it...with the discussion of the relative weaknesses and strengths of this 2012 OSU team....

Interested in hearing what you regulars (and of course others too) think about the Buckeyes vs the rest of the Big Ten this year...since that's the only thing they'll be able to prove on the field...they can't play in Indy, but they have a head-to-head matchup with the three best Legends teams in the reg season

Specifically...take the OSU wide receiver group...arguably the weakest unit on the team. Is there another B1G team with whom you would trade WR units straight up?

How about O-Lines? How about running backs? (where Wisky might have an edge, for example) How about DB's?...linebackers? Comments about other position units welcome.

Feedback also welcome about my B1G Preview rankings of the teams in each Div. ....is Penn State better than the 4th best team in the Leaders? How weak is the leaders Div? How much will PSU drop? Can a Purdue or an Illinois pass PSU in the division?

Is Michigan overrated, or am I nuts to have them behind MSU and Neb in Legends?

Both last years Indy participants will have new starting QB's...who can take advantage and surprise?

(link to Legends preview is at the top of this Leaders article)

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/ohio-sta ... s-division

Have at it.


I'll post on this a little later, I have to get some work done at some point today, lol.



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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby jb » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:19 pm

furls wrote: I don't like Hyde, I think he runs soft.



Maybe, but Dunn runs high.

Oh wait, that's his Momma.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:22 pm

jb wrote:
furls wrote: I don't like Hyde, I think he runs soft.



Maybe, but Dunn runs high.

Oh wait, that's his Momma.


OH SNAP, ZING!
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:34 pm

I don't love the OSU DL as it is currently constituted. There are some great parts, but I feel like too many of them are out of position. Simon is a good player but not a WDE. Hankins is a great 3. Bennett has potential to be a great SSDE. Goebel is average. There is very little potential there for a top 5 line. We have some very good SSDE's, no WDE's and a great 3 tech. I don' think they are not going to be good, they are going to be good, but I don't think they are going to be amazing. I think this year's unit is overrated. Which guy is going to pressure the QB? tOSU couldn't get there with 4 at all last year, and I am sorry, but I don't see it this year either unless Spence is able to seize a starting position and come on like a world beater as a freshman (something that not even Jadaveon Clowney could do).

As for the LBs, it was a critical liability last year. It was a position of great weakness last year. This year I think it becomes a position of strength. Does that mean it is going to be great, NO. Does that mean that it is going to be better than the DL, nope. I just think it will be a position of strength. There is a lot to be excited there, and LB is a position where you can have a hell of a lot more impact early. It is tough for the elite FR DL to come out and physical compete with the Wisco OL maulters, the fr. LBs have the athleticism to compete today (similar to Shazier) and I think the fr. LBs will add value immediately. Sabino will play better or he will be replaced, the writing is on the wall, either Marcus or Perkins will take his job.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:45 pm

You are right in that what is needed is a weakside pass rushing threat. I think we find it this year, we will see.
What you could end up with on the Dline in that case is this:

WDE - Miller,Spence,Pittman
NT - Goebel,Hale
3T - Hankins,Washington
SSDE - Simon,Bennett

Realistically being the best Dline in the conference is going to get you into national top 8-10 range minimum. If Miller and/or Spence provides that weakside pass rush and you have two potential All Americans on the other side, I dont see any reason it wouldn't compete with the top 5 in the country, and if the young pups are as good as is being talked about, then its deep as well.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:47 pm

furls wrote:tOSU couldn't get there with 4 at all last year, and I am sorry, but I don't see it this year either unless Spence is able to seize a starting position and come on like a world beater as a freshman (something that not even Jadaveon Clowney could do).


If Clowney had Simon and Hankins lining up next to him, he would have had a much, much bigger Freshman season IMO.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:43 pm

JCoz wrote:
furls wrote:tOSU couldn't get there with 4 at all last year, and I am sorry, but I don't see it this year either unless Spence is able to seize a starting position and come on like a world beater as a freshman (something that not even Jadaveon Clowney could do).


If Clowney had Simon and Hankins lining up next to him, he would have had a much, much bigger Freshman season IMO.


Simon is a good, not amazing player. Hankins has the chance to be a real difference maker, Big Hank can be a game changer.

You are vastly underrating South Carolina's DL. Devin Taylor, Travian Robertson and Melvin Ingram are NFL players.

Now, I just got done watching ESPN's all access OSU and I tell you what, Spence may be ready this year. Will have a year like Clowney (8 sacks 30 tackles), doubtful, but he looks like a player. That said, If you are going to be an ELITE DL you need to do better than 5-7 sacks from the weakside. The line will be good, but like I said, it is not a nationally elite.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:46 pm

JCoz wrote:You are right in that what is needed is a weakside pass rushing threat. I think we find it this year, we will see.
What you could end up with on the Dline in that case is this:

WDE - Miller,Spence,Pittman
NT - Goebel,Hale
3T - Hankins,Washington
SSDE - Simon,Bennett

Realistically being the best Dline in the conference is going to get you into national top 8-10 range minimum. If Miller and/or Spence provides that weakside pass rush and you have two potential All Americans on the other side, I dont see any reason it wouldn't compete with the top 5 in the country, and if the young pups are as good as is being talked about, then its deep as well.


I don't think you are going to see Simon and Bennett at the SSDE spot. I think Mike Bennett is good enough that he is forcing the staffs hand on Simon. I think Simon is likely to stay at WDE because they cannot take Bennett off the field. tOSU is a team full of 3 Techs and SSDE's, we have two guys who could be better WDE's, but I don't think Meyer is going to bench Simon.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:07 am

I think we are just going to have to wait and see because I don't think Simon stays at WDE, and I think you are going to great lengths to say this line isn't going to be one of the best in the country by comparing them to some kind of standard you have cooked up in your head, when in reality they are being compared to the actual other defensive lines in the country this season. How many other defensive lines are starting a (likely) '13 1st and 2nd rd NFL draft pick this season? You can probably start there. Simon is a great SSDE in college football and you are selling him short by saying he's a "good" player. Heyward was a "good" player, Simon is better. Go back and watch the Wisconsin game from last season if you can. I also think it's kind of arbitrary to talk about how many sacks you need out of a WDE spot to be "elite", particularly in today's CFB. 75% of the B1G is running a spread and it's just not realistic to expect huge numbers of sacks against many of these offenses.

Fact is this will be the best Defensive line in the conference, and that probably makes it at least top ten in the nation. Hell there could be 3 SEC teams with better Dlines and this team could STILL be realistically top 5 this year.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby pod2dawg » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:32 am

yes,yes, & yes.

OMG wait till 2013!!!

Elite is knocking.

When you are seriously wondering how to keep Simon on the field because of the other talent on the DL...you good.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:03 am

JCoz wrote:I think we are just going to have to wait and see because I don't think Simon stays at WDE, and I think you are going to great lengths to say this line isn't going to be one of the best in the country by comparing them to some kind of standard you have cooked up in your head, when in reality they are being compared to the actual other defensive lines in the country this season. How many other defensive lines are starting a (likely) '13 1st and 2nd rd NFL draft pick this season? You can probably start there. Simon is a great SSDE in college football and you are selling him short by saying he's a "good" player. Heyward was a "good" player, Simon is better. Go back and watch the Wisconsin game from last season if you can. I also think it's kind of arbitrary to talk about how many sacks you need out of a WDE spot to be "elite", particularly in today's CFB. 75% of the B1G is running a spread and it's just not realistic to expect huge numbers of sacks against many of these offenses.

Fact is this will be the best Defensive line in the conference, and that probably makes it at least top ten in the nation. Hell there could be 3 SEC teams with better Dlines and this team could STILL be realistically top 5 this year.


Demanding sacks out of the DL is not going to great lengths to concoct a standard. tOSU did NOT pressure the QB much last year and a big part of that was that a lot of guys were playing out of position, that is something that will not change this year. So I am not, "concocting" standards. If you don't measure a DL by its sacks and pressure how do you measure it? Rushing yards? This same defensive line gave up a very pedestrian 141YPG last year (167 YPG vs. Ranked opponents), compared to 2010's 96YPG or 2009's 90YPG. What metric should I use?

The fact that most of the B1G runs a spread makes it even that much more critical to get sacks from the DL. You are going to have a lot of trouble sending linebackers and not singling on the outside when there is 4 WR on the field (or some version of 4WR). You fed exactly into my point. Getting pressure with 4 is critical (you cannot be an elite DL if you can't), and right now the Bucks will struggle with that; I don't see that coming.

You vastly overrate Simon's potential (and underrate Heyward's). There is NO WAY he is a 2nd round pick. He has no position in the NFL. His frame is 100% maxed at 265 and he is not nearly fast enough to play WDE in college let alone the NFL and at 6'2" with normal limb length he is not long enough to play WDE in the NFL. He is not fast enough and has no history of showing any coverage skill so 3-4 OLB is out. He is a man with no position in the NFL. I think he will play in the NFL, but no one is going to use a 2nd round pick for him accept maybe the Browns because they are good at wasting high picks. Simon's third year numbers are VERY close to Heyward's (Heyward 46 tackles 6.5 sacks, Simon 53 tackles 7 sacks) the difference is that Heyward is 6'5" 300lbs with a frame to get bigger and long limbs making him an obvious NFL DL, Simon at a maxed out 6'2 265 has no position.

So let's look at what has to happen for your top 5 in the country/elite DL to emerge. You said that John Simon will move over to SSDE, and that a huge part of your argument is that Simon is an ELITE college SSDE, I think he is a very good SSDE and an above average WDE. So that means that a WDE has to emerge. Who is that guy? Is it Spence, Miller... someone else? The point is that this guy is not established, if a WDE emereges it will be a guy that has never been a starter before. That is a pretty big what if.

So, Hankins is clearly the best DL on the Buckeyes and if he builds on last year he is a top ten pick next year. Simon is likely #2, who is #3? Mike Bennett. If you put Simon at 5Tech, where does that put your 3rd best guy? On the bench? Are you going to move Hankins out of position to the NT slot to play Bennett out of position at 3 Tech, so you can play Simon in position at SSDE? The problem tOSU has is that it has two very good SSDE's, a great 3 tech and an average to above average 0-1 Tech and no established 7-9 Tech. That to me is not an elite DL unless Noah Spence or Steve Miller come off the bench as starters this year and out perform Jadaveon Clowney last year.

Again, I think the DL will be strong, but to call a line where they are playing their 2nd best player way out of position is ridiculous and to say that you don't need to be able to pressure the QB from the front 4 is dumb. The unit is deep and very talented, but there are plenty of lines out there right now that are much more established and while this unit may be the best of the B1G this is not 1972 anymore, so that statement does not carry anywhere that much weight anymore. There are probably 5 better units in the SEC alone.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:25 am

Don't confuse the nfl for college. Simon IS, flat out, a better college defensive lineman than Heyward. Simon just put up the best season for an OSU Dlineman since Will Smith as far as I'm concerned. Simon is also at this point the best defensive lineman on this college team. The value of 300lbers with Hankins feet in the NFL does not make him the default better player on OSU this season. Simon may or may not be a 2nd rounder. I can find several early mocks that have him there, so I'm not some lone homer slotting him there.

Instead of having an arbitrary standard for elite, why don't you just name me 5 defensive lines in the country that are clearly better....

We just have very different opinions of this Dline and the results will be on the field. I think the real reason your position annoys me is because it's out of context. Whatever you think about Simons nfl prospects and lack of sacks, this is in all probability the best dline in the B1G, probably better than any in the PAC 12 or big east, and possibly the big twelve as well. You have LSU, UGA, USCe, possibly bama, possibly Texas that are in the conversation. I'm missing knowledge of the top dines in the ACC. But there is the list outside the B1G. So I find it hard to believe that OSU can not be termed one of the bet in the country going into this season.

That point in contrast with your take/optimism on the LBers is just beyond strange to me.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby pup » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:51 pm

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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:07 pm

JCoz wrote:Don't confuse the nfl for college. Simon IS, flat out, a better college defensive lineman than Heyward. Simon just put up the best season for an OSU Dlineman since Will Smith as far as I'm concerned. Simon is also at this point the best defensive lineman on this college team. The value of 300lbers with Hankins feet in the NFL does not make him the default better player on OSU this season. Simon may or may not be a 2nd rounder. I can find several early mocks that have him there, so I'm not some lone homer slotting him there.

Instead of having an arbitrary standard for elite, why don't you just name me 5 defensive lines in the country that are clearly better....

We just have very different opinions of this Dline and the results will be on the field. I think the real reason your position annoys me is because it's out of context. Whatever you think about Simons nfl prospects and lack of sacks, this is in all probability the best dline in the B1G, probably better than any in the PAC 12 or big east, and possibly the big twelve as well. You have LSU, UGA, USCe, possibly bama, possibly Texas that are in the conversation. I'm missing knowledge of the top dines in the ACC. But there is the list outside the B1G. So I find it hard to believe that OSU can not be termed one of the bet in the country going into this season.
That point in contrast with your take/optimism on the LBers is just beyond strange to me.


I am very much aware of the difference between NCAA DE's and NFL DE's. What I said earlier was that Cam Heyward's Jr. year was every bit the equal of Simon's. You think that Simon had the best year by an OSU DL since Smith, Vernon Gholston's 2006 and 2007 seasons were both better statistically and in terms of impact on the field, Quinn Pitcocks 2006 season was better, Hank's season was better last year, Heyward's '09 season was a push, Kudla's '05 season (10sacks and 45 tackles) was a push. You are clearly suffering from the "recency bias."

Simon had a nice season last year, but you are making him sound like superman. Hankins was 3rd on the team last year in tackles.... AS A DT. He made more plays than Simon from a position where you do not expect guys to make plays. Hankins' year last year was among the best in the nation for a DT (or any DL). His numbers were comparable to Nick Fairley's ridiculous 2010 season in tackles. So while he may not inspire the same feelings in the cockles of your heart that Simon did, he had a better year. That is why Hank will be a top 10 pick this year, because he is the best DL on this team.

As for mocks that have Simon in the second round, so what. I'll believe it next April when I see it. The list of NFL DE's at 6'2" is pretty short. Would you want the Browns to use a second on him? If so what position would you use him at? Where does he play? John Simon is a rich man's version of Mike Kudla, great NCAA player, stupidly strong, adequate NCAA size and quickness, but not good enough size and quicks for the NFL.

Last year's defense was bad. Last year's DL played OK, but nothing on that line has changed. It is the exact same line that it was last year (aside from trading Bellamy for Bennett). Did you think that last year's line was a top 5 line? This one IS THE SAME. It is a good DL, but not an all time line.

I cannot for the life of me figure out what you are basing your assessment of the line on. They don't sack the QB and they gave up 141 YPG on the ground against one of the weakest B1G's ever to take the field.

Here are some lines that are likely to be better this year:

LSU, USCe, GA, AL, Auburn, probably FL depending on how Ronald Powell comes back from injury, FSU, VaTECH, Texas are just a few off the top of my head. Best in the B1G just isn't that big of a deal right now, it is like being one of the world's tallest dwarves.

The key difference between my take on LBs and your take on the DL is that I did NOT SAY, that the LBs would be the best in the nation or among the best in the nation. I said that LB would be a position of strength on this team, because there are significant changes at LB this year and they are upgrades over last year's abortion. Storm Klein is gone, Andrew Sweat is gone and if Sabino does not play well, then he is gone to. I am excited about the LB play because it will be better, I am not as excited about the DL play because this same unit was not great last year. DL play this year will probably be better than the LB play, but the LB play will improve much more this year than the DL play.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:09 pm

pup wrote:
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FWIW, DiNardo is no Ohio State fan either. If you guys haven't seen the ESPN all access OSU you should watch it. It is pretty awesome, no commentary, just film. Meyer has these guys COMPETING.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:44 pm

DL is drawing rave reviews from BTN folks that were at practice today, I guess Noah Spence had 2 sacks against the first team OL in the scrimmage today. There is a special on the BTN for tOSU preview at 10pm tomorrow night. Maybe I am being overly harsh. Like I said, I saw this same unit last year and they were pretty good, not elite. The season will tell the story. I hope you (and the BTN) are right, and this unit is one of the best in the NCAA this year.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby danwismar » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:42 am

I thought it was interesting that Vrabel has been telling media that he is not wedded to the idea of a DL "rotation" at all...that the best four guys will play, and he will not rotate for rotation's sake. From all I can gather from various reports, here's what we may see in the two-deep (Leo, Nose, 3-tech, SSDE)

1's - Spence, Goebel, Hankins, Simon

2's - Miller, Hale, Washington, Bennett

As furls has said above, that first unit is problematic because it doesn't necessarily get your best four guys on the field...(most people seem to think Bennett is one of their best four DL, for example) and Spence may not be the Game 1 started at Leo, but...Lots of reports too that Chris Carter has been very impressive inside as well...and Tommy Schutt was one of the first freshmen to lose his black stripe. He is overperforming expectations.

Nathan Williams is kind of a wild card there. They keep saying how valuable he is, but how can you realistically expect to get anything out of him...and if you do, will it merit a starting role?
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby danwismar » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:47 am

FWIW, YahooSports guy has OSU's DL rated as the nation's 2nd best unit:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--fbc ... lines.html
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:31 pm

I saw that from Yahoo!. The writer immediately loses credibility for penciling Williams in as the starter. The guy has barely been involved in contact drills. Additionally, even without the knee injury there was no reason to expect great numbers from Williams. The guy's season high sack total is 4.5. That doesn't scream pass rushing terror.

Also, that list you showed with Spence as the WDE is probably the best overall DL that the Buckeyes can get on the field. It has the best balance of pass rush and "stoutness." Putting Simon back at home at the 5Tech, where he is a natural fit, makes the most sense even if it takes reps away from Mike Bennett who is a great player as well. I wonder if Hank or Bennett can "two gap" and take reps at NT. Goebel is OK, but he is not a two gapper. If the OSU D can put Spence, Simon, Bennett and Hankins on the field in Pass Rush situations.

I like the DL, I just don't love it with so many guys playing out of position. If they can get Simon back to WDE (if Spence is ready) then this line could be awesome. If Simon is the pass rush from the weakside, then the line will not be Elite (in my opinion).

Spence is supposedly TEARING IT UP at WDE. He had 3 sacks against the ones yesterday.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:50 pm

Furls, we'll just have to agree to disagree on on Hankins vs Simon in 2011. I think Simon was clearly the best college Dlinman on the team. You say you know the difference between NFL and NCAA assessments, but you seem to be heavily discounting how good Simon is in the NCAA because he doesn’t have the frame and measurables that you are looking for in the NFL. Thats also why he was rated a 3* coming out of HS. (Simon isn't Smith, Peppers, Dlinman like that, I know)

Bringing up Gholston is kind of a sad joke, I've never seen a talented player disappear for games and games like he did. Perfect example of why sacks are not something you should be hanging your hat on. In his best season he had 3/4 of his sacks in two games, and was largely MIA for the season.

I can distinctly remember the best two games Heyward had at OSU, and that isnt a compliment. If the Heyward you got most of the time was PSU 09 and Arky 10, there would be no question that he was a better player than Simon, but he wasn't, not even close (to the guy he was in those games). He was a better player game to game than Gholston but was not a better player than Simon.

I say Simon put up the best season for a Dlineman since Smith because that's what I see, statistics can only take you so far, otherwise you'd only need to look at box scores to understand what happened in every game/season. That isnt the way it works.

Last season was a bad defense, the worst since 04, and possibly worse than that, in truth, but that certainly had nothing to do with the way simon played. It had a lot more to do with the worst season of Linebacker play that I have ever seen at Ohio State, bar none(Admittedly I can only go back to the 90’s). Safety play was some of the worst that I have ever seen and that’s backed up by the number of big plays (over 25yds) given up being more than the last 5 seasons combined.

I fully understand what you are saying about the LBers, what I am pointing out is that you seem to be more than willing to be optimistic despite have very, very little to go on (2/3 of the starters are unknown or poorly projected in Grant/Sabino)….I happen to share that optimism to a point, I have high hopes for Grant, and hope that Sabino is replaced, I also think there is reason for optimism in having Fickell back coaching the position…..what I’m pointing out is that while you are optimistic that we can rely on finding not one but two starters within the youth there, you can’t seem to find any hope at all for filling one position on the Dline, despite the reports coming out of camp.

Most of those Dlines you mentioned beyond LSU have similar questions going into this season, on the field we will see that play out. But they already are one of the best in the country, probably between 5th and 8th IMO, and have the potential to be top 5 if they answer some of those questions we both have a WDE. I do not think under any circumstances they can be better than LSU.

Nuff said on the topic I guess, its beaten to death really.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:24 pm

danwismar wrote:I thought it was interesting that Vrabel has been telling media that he is not wedded to the idea of a DL "rotation" at all...that the best four guys will play, and he will not rotate for rotation's sake. From all I can gather from various reports, here's what we may see in the two-deep (Leo, Nose, 3-tech, SSDE)

1's - Spence, Goebel, Hankins, Simon

2's - Miller, Hale, Washington, Bennett

As furls has said above, that first unit is problematic because it doesn't necessarily get your best four guys on the field...(most people seem to think Bennett is one of their best four DL, for example) and Spence may not be the Game 1 started at Leo, but...Lots of reports too that Chris Carter has been very impressive inside as well...and Tommy Schutt was one of the first freshmen to lose his black stripe. He is overperforming expectations.

Nathan Williams is kind of a wild card there. They keep saying how valuable he is, but how can you realistically expect to get anything out of him...and if you do, will it merit a starting role?



I think Williams doesn’t see much if any of the field this year.

But I have to admit that quote really threw me in a loop when I read it, as I was thinking that our depth would play to our advantage as a Dline, I’m not really excited with his reasoning there to be honest, the reality is that this isn’t the NFL, and I think there isn’t a well to sell me personally that Simon and Hankins playing all game equals the best position for OSU to be in for the 4th quarter, or that it sets OSU up well for future seasons. That is even more pronounced this season being that we cant go to a bowl game and are trying to make a big run in 2013, hopefully for a BCS game.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:54 pm

So I am the only person that thinks a fifteen pounds lighter and more dedicated Sabino has potential?
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:10 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:So I am the only person that thinks a fifteen pounds lighter and more dedicated Sabino has potential?


I think he has always had potential, but mentally he's never been close to functional...its rare to see a guy who has been so clueless (and I'm not trying to be a dick, thats just the adjective that fits best IMO) suddenly get it as a 5th year senior.

I'm rooting for him, I mean that would be great for the team in 2012, I've just never actually seen anything worth being optimistic about on the field yet. I'm not one of the people that was very impressed with the UF game, I mean yeah he had a couple nice hits and plays against the one team who was almost as offensively inept as the buckeyes last season.

I'm all for a great final year, I just see any reason to expect it.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby pup » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:00 pm

Vrabel's comment is not saying there will be no rotation, just that you will have to earn the right to be in that rotation. Nothing to get worked up over. If the depth is there and a strength, then they will rotate. If it is not, the biguns better be ready to roll.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:05 pm

Yep. ^

To be real, I've never been as hyped about a sports season as I am this coming Buckeye season. They'll lose a game or two, but NEVER has a Cleveland/Ohio team had the best coach in the world running the ship and we FINALLY have that.

Tress was Tress and should have coached five years then bowed out, he was not even in the same world as Meyer.

Conditioning alone is enough a reason to be hyped for this year.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby StewieG » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:22 pm

Yeah, I was just thinking the other day that this was as excited as I've been going into a season for any of my teams since probably the 2006 Buckeyes.

I even watched that laughable BTN training camp thing last night. I never watch shit like that.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:38 pm

pup wrote:Vrabel's comment is not saying there will be no rotation, just that you will have to earn the right to be in that rotation. Nothing to get worked up over. If the depth is there and a strength, then they will rotate. If it is not, the biguns better be ready to roll.


I disagree, he's pretty clear in this quote IMO:

“We’re going to play the best players,” Vrabel said. “If I think I’ve got four really good guys and if they don’t get tired, they’ll play the whole game. That’s what I’m used to. In the league I came from, the best players play. And if you don’t get tired, you play the whole game. So, if we have guys that get tired, we’ll rest them and rotate guys in there. But the best guys will be out there.”
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:53 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Yep. ^

To be real, I've never been as hyped about a sports season as I am this coming Buckeye season. They'll lose a game or two, but NEVER has a Cleveland/Ohio team had the best coach in the world running the ship and we FINALLY have that.

Tress was Tress and should have coached five years then bowed out, he was not even in the same world as Meyer.

Conditioning alone is enough a reason to be hyped for this year.


Don't be ridiculous. Mike Brown and Eric Wedge BOTH have Coach/Manager of the Year awards within the last 5 years.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby pup » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:54 pm

JCoz wrote:
pup wrote:Vrabel's comment is not saying there will be no rotation, just that you will have to earn the right to be in that rotation. Nothing to get worked up over. If the depth is there and a strength, then they will rotate. If it is not, the biguns better be ready to roll.


I disagree, he's pretty clear in this quote IMO:

“We’re going to play the best players,” Vrabel said. “If I think I’ve got four really good guys and if they don’t get tired, they’ll play the whole game. That’s what I’m used to. In the league I came from, the best players play. And if you don’t get tired, you play the whole game. So, if we have guys that get tired, we’ll rest them and rotate guys in there. But the best guys will be out there.”


Quit listening to coach's quotes. First, they are going to get tired. Second, I see this as nothing more than motivating players through the press (the real thing he brings from the league he comes from) to make a final push into the season.

Does the effect change for you if he actually think he has 6 really good players?
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:18 pm

pup wrote:
JCoz wrote:
pup wrote:Vrabel's comment is not saying there will be no rotation, just that you will have to earn the right to be in that rotation. Nothing to get worked up over. If the depth is there and a strength, then they will rotate. If it is not, the biguns better be ready to roll.


I disagree, he's pretty clear in this quote IMO:

“We’re going to play the best players,” Vrabel said. “If I think I’ve got four really good guys and if they don’t get tired, they’ll play the whole game. That’s what I’m used to. In the league I came from, the best players play. And if you don’t get tired, you play the whole game. So, if we have guys that get tired, we’ll rest them and rotate guys in there. But the best guys will be out there.”


Quit listening to coach's quotes. First, they are going to get tired. Second, I see this as nothing more than motivating players through the press (the real thing he brings from the league he comes from) to make a final push into the season.

Does the effect change for you if he actually think he has 6 really good players?



Yah, then they will all play the whole game if they dont get tired, and we will play with 6 down lineman. Clearly.

Gotta love how people at times like to take the quotes that they agree with literally and disregard the ones that they dont agree with as coachspeak....

I mean it would be alot easier to regard this as motivational coachspeak if they hadnt played Simon and Hankins on basically every defensive down last season.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:00 pm

pup wrote:Quit listening to coach's quotes. First, they are going to get tired. Second, I see this as nothing more than motivating players through the press (the real thing he brings from the league he comes from) to make a final push into the season.

Does the effect change for you if he actually think he has 6 really good players?


In all honesty I hope they have a good rotation going and its pure motivation. I guess that would indicate that Steve Miller wasnt a functional lineman last year. Hope the year in development has him ready to do something this year.

That was a well regarded Dline class, and not much to show for it with Hayes gone, Farris moving to Oline, and not much being said about Miller beyond bowl practices.

I'm hoping that Washington is good enough to warrant a good amount of snaps.

I'm very interested to see what losing 25+ lbs dos for Hankins game this season, he played 50+ snaps a game at 347 last year...
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:17 pm

JCoz wrote:Furls, we'll just have to agree to disagree on on Hankins vs Simon in 2011. I think Simon was clearly the best college Dlinman on the team. You say you know the difference between NFL and NCAA assessments, but you seem to be heavily discounting how good Simon is in the NCAA because he doesn’t have the frame and measurables that you are looking for in the NFL. Thats also why he was rated a 3* coming out of HS. (Simon isn't Smith, Peppers, Dlinman like that, I know)

Bringing up Gholston is kind of a sad joke, I've never seen a talented player disappear for games and games like he did. Perfect example of why sacks are not something you should be hanging your hat on. In his best season he had 3/4 of his sacks in two games, and was largely MIA for the season.

I can distinctly remember the best two games Heyward had at OSU, and that isnt a compliment. If the Heyward you got most of the time was PSU 09 and Arky 10, there would be no question that he was a better player than Simon, but he wasn't, not even close (to the guy he was in those games). He was a better player game to game than Gholston but was not a better player than Simon.

I say Simon put up the best season for a Dlineman since Smith because that's what I see, statistics can only take you so far, otherwise you'd only need to look at box scores to understand what happened in every game/season. That isnt the way it works.

Last season was a bad defense, the worst since 04, and possibly worse than that, in truth, but that certainly had nothing to do with the way simon played. It had a lot more to do with the worst season of Linebacker play that I have ever seen at Ohio State, bar none(Admittedly I can only go back to the 90’s). Safety play was some of the worst that I have ever seen and that’s backed up by the number of big plays (over 25yds) given up being more than the last 5 seasons combined.

I fully understand what you are saying about the LBers, what I am pointing out is that you seem to be more than willing to be optimistic despite have very, very little to go on (2/3 of the starters are unknown or poorly projected in Grant/Sabino)….I happen to share that optimism to a point, I have high hopes for Grant, and hope that Sabino is replaced, I also think there is reason for optimism in having Fickell back coaching the position…..what I’m pointing out is that while you are optimistic that we can rely on finding not one but two starters within the youth there, you can’t seem to find any hope at all for filling one position on the Dline, despite the reports coming out of camp.

Most of those Dlines you mentioned beyond LSU have similar questions going into this season, on the field we will see that play out. But they already are one of the best in the country, probably between 5th and 8th IMO, and have the potential to be top 5 if they answer some of those questions we both have a WDE. I do not think under any circumstance s they can be better than LSU.

Nuff said on the topic I guess, its beaten to death really.


Its all good. I don't hate John Simon, how could you? Yet I feel like this whole thread has been me trying to explain why he is not good. Believe me, I don't think he is "not good." I think he is a really good player, particularly when he is playing in his position at the 5 Tech. I watched the Wisco game last night and the defense was unwatchable. Simon played a nice game, but the defense was unwatchable. I guess this last year did a lot to help me take the scarlet and grey glasses off. As for using sacks as a measure, it is really the only easily accessible objective stat to measure pass rush. Is it perfect, nope, but it is really all there is. FWIW, Simon was a 5* on scout, a 3* on Rivals and a 4 star on ESPN.

My final point on the D-Line is that the other teams that I mentioned with questions similar to tOSU have different solutions coming this year. My biggest issue with this year's DL is that it is the same one as last year's, substituting Bennett for Bellamy. I saw good, I didn't see elite. I saw holes for RBs, I saw QBs with enough time in the pocket for WRs to get open against almost any secondary. I know there will be year to year improvement, but I am not sure there is that much. Now if Spence plays the season like the camp reports indicate he might, then all bets are off.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:26 pm

There is going to be PLENTY of mop up time this year, and therefore, lots of snaps for others. Meyer is going to put some big numbers up against teams this year and I would not be surprised to see the 2nd string DL playing most of the 2nd half of 6 games this year.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby jb » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:29 am

e0y2e3 wrote:To be real, I've never been as hyped about a sports season as I am this coming Buckeye season. They'll lose a game or two, but NEVER above the level of high school as a Cleveland/Ohio team had the best coach in the world running the ship for about 50 years and we FINALLY have that at tOSU.



^^^^

Fixed.

Seriously, really enjoying the info/perspective on this thread cats. Thanks.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:27 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Yep. ^

To be real, I've never been as hyped about a sports season as I am this coming Buckeye season. They'll lose a game or two, but NEVER has a Cleveland/Ohio team had the best coach in the world running the ship and we FINALLY have that.

Tress was Tress and should have coached five years then bowed out, he was not even in the same world as Meyer.

Conditioning alone is enough a reason to be hyped for this year.


I'm starting to be more optimistic about the learning curve on Offense, but I'm trying to keep it in check. I read that the O had a very good scrimmage Saturday, Braxton throwing for 350+ and 27 of 39. They cant hit him and he can't run yet, but Meyers words are telling, hes starting to be happy with what he's seeing.

Said that Philly Brown was curently the #1 WR, right now I'm not certain if thats a bad thing or a good thing, lol. He'd have to have improved quite a bit for it to be a good thing, might be quite a bit to expect. If history is any indication its not likely he makes it to much further without some kind of setback injury, so its hard to get excited about the kid's potential.

Less than two weeks to go. This Offense is really going to be something, if for no other reason than because its going to be so much different than anything we've seen at OSU. Spread to run, almost 100% no huddle, and playing for 4 quarters. Lot of change.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby furls » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:14 pm

Great points JCoz. It kind of mirrors my take. I have no idea whether the offense's play late in camp is a good thing because the offense is amazing or a bad thing because the defense is underperforming.

I think the fact that Braxton cannot be hit actually hinders him, as running is really a big part of his game, but it also adds artificiality that may add to his passing, so it is impossible to understand the net effect.

Rack your take on Philly Brown. Ever since he got here everyone raved about him as an athlete; I have always been more concerned about his ability to actually catch a ball. I thought he might be a good candidate for those jet sweeps as it takes that catching aspect out of it for him, but whatever. I had really high hopes for Devin Smith and the fact that Brown is the unanimous #1 WR I think bodes well when you consider that he is above Smith on the chart. Smith has not been all world, but he has shown reason to be optimistic.

I am very excited about this offense because... first and foremost, I think the days of the wasted snaps are going away. It used to drive me nuts watching Tressel waste an entire half of extremely valuable game reps by nursing a 17 point lead with 30 minutes remaining in the game; he would basically take a knee after the second half kiok off. I don't think you have to run up the socre, but if you are winning by 24 or something, bring out the second string and let them run real plays. If they cannot stop our second string, then that is their problem. I can't wait to see the pace of play, and we have the defensive depth to match that offensive strength.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:06 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure if I am super hyped about Philly finally putting it all together or super depressed about Devin Smith failing to take the next step.

The WR position/depth chart is currently the single weirdest aspect of the team.

And I'm still super hyped.

Hyped to a point where I am going to go out and call a 14 point win over SCUM.

And then I'm going to flick Whackphisto off.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby StewieG » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:16 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And then I'm going to flick Whackphisto off.


You'd do that for fun anyways.
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:32 pm

Joe Burger, a preferred walk on LB lost his stripe today.

Cardale Jones and Warren Ball were the other two not yet mentioned that lost their stripes recently.

Derek Young ‏@Derek11W
Fickell on walk-on Joe Burger losing stripe: the stars in recruiting dont matter.All about going point A to B and 4-6 secs of nonstop effort
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Re: 2012 Bucks Season Thread

Unread postby fairvis » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:06 am

Storm Klein reinstated:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... klein-team

Still a potential suspension on the docket, but it seems like the incident was a bit overblown. DOC was the final charge that stuck... and it sounds like the girl's a bit nuts. I'd still assume Meyer will suspend him for a month at least, possibly half the season to set an example.
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