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Cleveland Browns & The NFL

11 wins

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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:13 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:2013? Maybe. We'll have to see how Tyler Wilson looks this year. Not a Barkley fan.



This is what I'm sayin'.

I'm not blown away by this year's group coming out. To me, barring any metioric rise, Wilson is the only guy, and he needs to come up a notch to seperate. We'll see.


Every year there are guys who emerge like that. Nice junior years and big senior years... And every year many of them who do emerge are over drafted.

Pennington, Carr, Harrington, Ramsey, Boller, Losman, Smith, Campbell, VY, Leinert, Russell, etc.

Typically not finding the Eli's and the Rivers, etc on those fast risers. Not saying you can't or won't. Just saying caveat emptor.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby jb » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:15 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I can't recall the last time (or ever) hearing someone who has a boner for a front office and rookie QB use the argument (before the season) that they like him maybe better than the college QBs coming out the next year.

It's just mind-blowingly agenda ladden. Like, seriously? And to use it as a defense after he played a rookie-esque shit first game?



Yeah seriously. You really dont think these guys look strategically at all whatsoever? They draft yearly in a 100% vaccum? They didn't look at Weeds sitting in that slot and think "damn, we need to find some sort of prospect with a shot to be a permanant answer here".

They may not say it, but there's no way these guys play that kind of checkers oblivious to chess.

Edit - Why the FUCK am I even dumb enough to chase this red herring of player hating and just fuckin' around to fuck around? I'm a GD idiot and it's all a GD conspiracy, that's what it is. I hsould know. I inveneted it.

I'm out.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby jb » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:16 pm

peeker643 wrote:
jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:2013? Maybe. We'll have to see how Tyler Wilson looks this year. Not a Barkley fan.



This is what I'm sayin'.

I'm not blown away by this year's group coming out. To me, barring any metioric rise, Wilson is the only guy, and he needs to come up a notch to seperate. We'll see.


Every year there are guys who emerge like that. Nice junior years and big senior years... And every year many of them who do emerge are over drafted.

Pennington, Carr, Harrington, Ramsey, Boller, Losman, Smith, Campbell, VY, Leinert, Russell, etc.

Typically not finding the Eli's and the Rivers, etc on those fast risers. Not saying you can't or won't. Just saying caveat emptor.



I fully buy that buyer beware. All I was saying is right here right now as a pure prospect I don't see anyone in 2013 that would be head & shoulders over Weeds as a prospect.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:17 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Arguably the best QB prospect in the draft?

Holy fuck, I may die of laughter.



Right, so who is head/shoulders better coming out fuck face? I mean that as a buddy.

Unless you really think Jones and Bray are the shit it is a valid take.


Who was RG3 going into last year beyond a raw guy with high upside?

I mean chhhhhhhhhhhrist, proclamations about prospects that haven't played a down are just astoundingly stupid and far more agenda ladden than me mocking Gingers.



Far more leery about taking a fast-rising QB 20-30 than 1 or 2. 1 or 2 means special, advanced or with the legit ability physically to be be so.

20-30 means 19-29 QB-starved teams (most of whom need a QB) passed on your guy.


IMO.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:20 pm

IMO, two things were at play:

1) Yeah, they liked The Ginger, but it had nothing to do with 2013 prospect... not a damn thing

2) Their seats got hot and they decided they had to go all or nothing this year (as proven by the Supplemental draft) so they were getting a QB No Matter What.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:22 pm

peeker643 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Arguably the best QB prospect in the draft?

Holy fuck, I may die of laughter.



Right, so who is head/shoulders better coming out fuck face? I mean that as a buddy.

Unless you really think Jones and Bray are the shit it is a valid take.


Who was RG3 going into last year beyond a raw guy with high upside?

I mean chhhhhhhhhhhrist, proclamations about prospects that haven't played a down are just astoundingly stupid and far more agenda ladden than me mocking Gingers.



Far more leery about taking a fast-rising QB 20-30 than 1 or 2. 1 or 2 means special, advanced or with the legit ability physically to be be so.

20-30 means 19-29 QB-starved teams (most of whom need a QB) passed on your guy.


IMO.


And the QB needy teams between #8 (Miami) and #22 that passed on Weeden were...?
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:23 pm

jb wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:2013? Maybe. We'll have to see how Tyler Wilson looks this year. Not a Barkley fan.



This is what I'm sayin'.

I'm not blown away by this year's group coming out. To me, barring any metioric rise, Wilson is the only guy, and he needs to come up a notch to seperate. We'll see.


Every year there are guys who emerge like that. Nice junior years and big senior years... And every year many of them who do emerge are over drafted.

Pennington, Carr, Harrington, Ramsey, Boller, Losman, Smith, Campbell, VY, Leinert, Russell, etc.

Typically not finding the Eli's and the Rivers, etc on those fast risers. Not saying you can't or won't. Just saying caveat emptor.



I fully buy that buyer beware. All I was saying is right here right now as a pure prospect I don't see anyone in 2013 that would be head & shoulders over Weeds as a prospect.


Fair enough. And I know you MUST have one.

My point being that just because Weeden may project out better than 2013 class of QBs doesn't mean he's going to be a successful NFL QB. No more so than me being the tallest guy in the room means I can dunk.

That's all I'm saying here. And that I would not have taken him. I think the Walrus's desperation (partly caused by him taking Colt) delivered us another questionable QB and this one came a steep price.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:25 pm

You could make an argument for the Chiefs hiko, but that is questionable and the only one. Your point stands.

So does Peeker's though, as the eleventy first round QBs taken in the last three years are going to start cycling out and being replaced next year.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:30 pm

Ha! I stand corrected. If all you're looking for out of Weeden is him being Matt Cassell, Kevin Kolb, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Charlie Whitehurst/Matt Flynn/Tavaris Jackson then I can see why you're excited about taking Weeden at 22.

All those teams would be crazy to take the best QB prospect in the 2013 draft a year early when they had those guys.

Hikohadon wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Arguably the best QB prospect in the draft?

Holy fuck, I may die of laughter.



Right, so who is head/shoulders better coming out fuck face? I mean that as a buddy.

Unless you really think Jones and Bray are the shit it is a valid take.


Who was RG3 going into last year beyond a raw guy with high upside?

I mean chhhhhhhhhhhrist, proclamations about prospects that haven't played a down are just astoundingly stupid and far more agenda ladden than me mocking Gingers.



Far more leery about taking a fast-rising QB 20-30 than 1 or 2. 1 or 2 means special, advanced or with the legit ability physically to be be so.

20-30 means 19-29 QB-starved teams (most of whom need a QB) passed on your guy.


IMO.


And the QB needy teams between #8 (Miami) and #22 that passed on Weeden were...?
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:35 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:You could make an argument for the Chiefs hiko, but that is questionable and the only one. Your point stands.

So does Peeker's though, as the eleventy first round QBs taken in the last three years are going to start cycling out and being replaced next year.


I thought about them, but they not only have a ton invested in Cassell, they didn't draft a QB anywhere in the draft. Which certainly isn't the action of a team that feels they need to address the position.

Of course Peek's point is valid. Weeden might suck. But if you don't address the QB spot in this draft and the 2013 class is as mediocre as many think it is and you're just good enough to not be in position to get the top guys anyway... you just float on without even the CHANCE of having procured a franchise QB.

That's why I like the Weeden pick, b/c I think he has a legit CHANCE of being that. That might be a 15% chance, but that's still 15% more chance than Colt had. And probably just as much chance as Barkley would have here even IF the Browns were in position to draft him next year.

So I'm not sure what action Peeks the GM would've made that improves the QB situation over what it is right now, but I'm sure it's fascinating.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:40 pm

peeker643 wrote:Ha! I stand corrected. If all you're looking for out of Weeden is him being Matt Cassell, Kevin Kolb, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Charlie Whitehurst/Matt Flynn/Tavaris Jackson then I can see why you're excited about taking Weeden at 22.


I'm sure you've made a dumber point, but I can't recall it right off the top of my head.

Naturally these teams should've drafted QB's in the middle of the 1st round to compete with guys they've annointed starters and paid a shitload of money to/picks for. Makes total sense.

If you want to take that simplistic view of it, I'll go back to not even bothering.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:45 pm

You just told me that Seattle and AZ didn't need Weeden. Ostensibly because Seattle has two guys in Flynn and Russel Wilson that you could have had for nothing but money or a mid round pick.

And Kolb and Skelton in AZ must make Weeden unnecessary there. So they must be better than Colt too. You could have (allegedly) had either of them too.

Without using a fucking 22nd pick on a guy they didn't want.

The fascinating thing is you're arguing this based on some arbitrary and nebulous "15% chance".

That's fascinating. It's also funny that you're okay with Weeden there, despite his warts, but didn't want Tannehill (nor did I but I ddn't Weeden either) when Tannehill also fits the bill as a better prospect than the 2013 crop.



Hikohadon wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:You could make an argument for the Chiefs hiko, but that is questionable and the only one. Your point stands.

So does Peeker's though, as the eleventy first round QBs taken in the last three years are going to start cycling out and being replaced next year.


I thought about them, but they not only have a ton invested in Cassell, they didn't draft a QB anywhere in the draft. Which certainly isn't the action of a team that feels they need to address the position.

Of course Peek's point is valid. Weeden might suck. But if you don't address the QB spot in this draft and the 2013 class is as mediocre as many think it is and you're just good enough to not be in position to get the top guys anyway... you just float on without even the CHANCE of having procured a franchise QB.

That's why I like the Weeden pick, b/c I think he has a legit CHANCE of being that. That might be a 15% chance, but that's still 15% more chance than Colt had. And probably just as much chance as Barkley would have here even IF the Browns were in position to draft him next year.

So I'm not sure what action Peeks the GM would've made that improves the QB situation over what it is right now, but I'm sure it's fascinating.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:48 pm

<-- really looking forward to trolling the fuck out the Tanney v. Ginger debate this year!
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:49 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Ha! I stand corrected. If all you're looking for out of Weeden is him being Matt Cassell, Kevin Kolb, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Charlie Whitehurst/Matt Flynn/Tavaris Jackson then I can see why you're excited about taking Weeden at 22.


I'm sure you've made a dumber point, but I can't recall it right off the top of my head.

Naturally these teams should've drafted QB's in the middle of the 1st round to compete with guys they've annointed starters and paid a shitload of money to/picks for. Makes total sense.

If you want to take that simplistic view of it, I'll go back to not even bothering.


Weeden makes more than Flynn. Weeden makes more than Flynn + Wilson.

AZ could have cut Kolb and not paid him shit and still surely gotten Weeden in the middle of round 1 and they pay Skelton nothing.


Keep spinning and keep talking. This is terrific stuff.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:51 pm

:pop:

I just want to see who's in the room when peeker is the tallest.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:53 pm

Oh... and the Cassell contract included $21m in bonuses that were paid out ending in 2011. He makes $5m this year with next to nothing guaranteed.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:57 pm

FUDU wrote::pop:

I just want to see who's in the room when peeker is the tallest.


motherscratcher for sure.

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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby HoodooMan » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:58 pm

peeker643 wrote:Typically not finding the Eli's and the Rivers, etc on those fast risers. Not saying you can't or won't. Just saying caveat emptor.


Draftgeeky FTR: going into his Sr year at NC State, PFW had Rivers rated as a "top quality free agent who could end up being drafted."

And Weeden was the worst pick I've ever seen the Borwns make. Worse than throwing things after missing out on a TE, passing on Sapp, trading down for Powell, and giving the Ravens Ray Lewis. Everyone in this lame duck regime can go fuck themselves. And so can the new "I think the reality today is, you live in a marketing world"-douche who just bought one of the most (at least top 25 percentile) tradition-centric franchises in the league. Thanks a lot, Randy. Yeah, ideally you'd love to sell the team to the city, but since that's not allowed, you'll just take the first guy who comes around once daddy's 10 year freeze expires. Thumb up!

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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Would have cost the Bills $3.2million this season (and $2m each of next 3 seasons) to rid themselves of the most excellent, entrenched and expensive as hell Fitzpatrick for a chance at a talent like Weeden.

Small price to pay really if you think he's the guy.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:06 pm

Yeah... I dig it. But it's caveat emptor on draft publications too, right JB ;-) ;) :wink:

I don't know why PFT had that report because many of the reports on Rivers that I saw pre and post his senior year were pretty much this (and look at this and how accurate it is on both + and -):

#17 QB Philip Rivers, North Carolina State, 6-5/229/5.08
Class/Draft Year: Sr/2004
Projected Round: 1
Rated number 3 out of 57 QB's

Overview
The second-leading passer in NCAA history with 13,484 career passing yards, breaking school and Atlantic Coast Conference records, he also set an NCAA record with 51 career starts at quarterback...Philip finished second in NCAA history with 13,582 career yards of total offense...He tied for fifth in NCAA history with 95 career touchdown passes and also broke school and ACC career-records for passing attempts (1710), pass completions (1147), touchdowns responsible for (112), 300-yard passing games (18) and 400-yard passing games (7)...Philip started all 51 games (including 2000-01 bowls) of his four years and threw for at least 100 yards in every contest while posting a 34-17 career record as the starter. He is the first quarterback in ACC history, and the seventh in the history of the NCAA, to throw for 3000 yards in three different seasons...He completed 110 of 161 passes in four bowl games for 1,202 yards, 10 touchdowns, three interceptions and rushed for 65 yards...His jersey number 17 was retired before his last home game, (11/22/03) vs. Maryland...The most decorated passer in school annals, he also excelled in the class room, graduating with a degree in Business (12/18/03), four days before suiting up for the final time for the Wolf- pack.

Analysis
Positives...Has a tall, linear build with adequate body thickness and good size for his position...Shows good arm strength and velocity...Very smart athlete who makes proper judgements (rarely throws into traffic)...Has great poise and pocket presence, as he will stand tall and deliver under pressure...Takes control in the huddle and is very respected by his teammates...Displays above average ball placement in the short area passing game and throws a very catchable ball, knowing exactly when to zip the pigskin and when to show touch...Has a natural feel for when he needs to slide out of the pocket and avoid the pass rush...seems to always be in sync with his receivers, doing an excellent job in timing his tosses and anticipating when to hit his targets in stride...Has a keen understanding of the offense, keeiping his head on a swivel as he checks down the line...Vocal leader who words hard in the weight room and practices...Highly competitive type who is not afraid to "mix it up" when defenders get over-aggressive...Has the body strength to fight off pressure and get free from the blitz...More comfortable in the short-to-intermediate passing game, displaying incredible accuracy..Not fast, but can buy time with his feet and maintains his accuracy throwing on the move (his precision allows him to squeeze the ball into tight areas)...Will need mechanical refinement, but much like Brett Favre, this kid is a flat-out winner.
Negatives...Won't ever hurt you by running the ball, but has enough foot quickness and hip swerve to elude the rush and throw on the move...Needs to work on his foot quickness in his drops, but has made steady improvement in recent years...Throws the ball with a sidearm motion, but he can improvise and make plays with his creativity...Will struggle with his long tosses, as the ball will sail and hang on him (his best way to get the ball deep is through an awkward wind-up delivery)...His unorthodox style sees him keep the ball at his waist, displaying a low release, but he has good timing.

Combine Results
Wonderlic: 30

Campus Agility Tests
40-yard dash: 5.08
Bench press: 375 lbs.
Power clean: 290 lbs.
Vertical jump: 33"
Broad jump: 9'8"
Arm length: 31 1/4"
Wonderlic: 29/35
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HoodooMan wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Typically not finding the Eli's and the Rivers, etc on those fast risers. Not saying you can't or won't. Just saying caveat emptor.


Draftgeeky FTR: going into his Sr year at NC State, PFW had Rivers rated as a "top quality free agent who could end up being drafted."

And Weeden was the worst pick I've ever seen the Borwns make. Worse than throwing things after missing out on a TE, passing on Sapp, trading down for Powell, and giving the Ravens Ray Lewis. Everyone in this lame duck regime can go fuck themselves. And so can the new "I think the reality today is, you live in a marketing world"-douche who just bought one of the most (at least top 25 percentile) tradition-centric franchises in the league. Thanks a lot, Randy. Yeah, ideally you'd love to sell the team to the city, but since that's not allowed, you'll just take the first guy who comes around once daddy's 10 year freeze expires. Thumb up!

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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:15 pm

Image


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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:23 pm

All I see is a rifle-armed, red-headed savior.

I'm upward of 15% sure of it.

:hide:

Sorry Hiko. I will make a full and formal apology if I'm wrong. Hopefully you'll get that in two-three years. :group:



e0y2e3 wrote:Image


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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:27 pm

Spinning is trying to tell me that Seattle would legitimately be interested in a 1st round QB when they just signed Flynn in Free Agency. ::doh::

If any of those teams you listed had the #1 or #2 pick, they likely would've jumped at Luck or RG3. Outside of that, they weren't gonna take a guy in the 1st round that isn't assured of being better than a guy they have on the roster that they invested a lot in (picks or money or both) at one time or another.

The only teams that take non sure-fire QB's like Tannehill, Weeden, Gabbert, Locker, Ponder (I'd personally rather have Weeden over any of these guys, but that's neither here nor there), etc. in the 1st round are teams that have given up on their current starter. Clearly, those teams have not, whether or not YOU think they should. They'll address a position that they deem a greater need.

Morris Claiborne is probably going to be a good NFL CB. Morris Claiborne will probably be a better NFL CB than Sheldon Brown. Tom Heckert probably felt that Morris Claiborne would be a better NFL CB than Sheldon Brown. Mike Holmgren probably felt that Morris Claiborne would be a better NFL CB than Sheldon Brown. But they did not pick Morris Claiborne.

Why is this? Is it because they think Morris Claiborne is poopy? No! It's because they felt that while he might be an upgrade he probably wasn't a once-every-5-years type prospect and they had a position of greater need and they could make do with Sheldon Brown for one more year, that upgrading that position was something they could put off for one more year and hopefully get by.

A feeling which would certainly be amplified if Sheldon Brown were a couple years younger and they had invested a huge contract in him in the recent past.

No one in the universe thought ANY of those teams were going to take a 1st round QB. If they took a QB at all, it would be the developmental type they could get in later rounds, like the Seahawks did. The Chiefs didn't take one at all, so they must feel they're set. The Cards took one in the 6th to go with all their other developmental QB's and the QB they desperately hope can justify what they paid for him JUST LAST YEAR. The Bills didn't take a QB at all either, obviously they seem ready to go to war with the QB that they just gave a big extension to IN THE MIDDLE OF LAST SEASON.

Only 4 teams came into the draft looking to replace their starting QB ASAP, and they all took 1st round QB's. End.

Now if you want to argue that since no one else was looking to draft a QB that high so the Browns very well could've waited until the 1st pick of the 2nd round to get Weeden, that is a fair argument.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:29 pm

I fear I left out a possible explanation as to why a team with Matt Cassell or Charlie Whitehurst or Kevin Kolb under center last season would go with Matt Flynn or draft Russell Wilson or stick with Kolb/Cassell:

It's simple, really- It could very well be that Holmgren and the Browns are just smarter than everyone else.

There's probably some evidence somewhere that we could dig up to test the validity of that theory.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:30 pm

peeker643 wrote:Sorry Hiko. I will make a full and formal apology if I'm wrong. Hopefully you'll get that in two-three years. :group:


I don't need an apology. You should apologize to yourself for letting yourself sound like such a bitch. :cheers:
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:39 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Spinning is trying to tell me that Seattle would legitimately be interested in a 1st round QB when they just signed Flynn in Free Agency. ::doh::


Nope.

Spinning is telling me they didn't consider where they were drafting, who was available in free agency, whether Weeden would have been there with their pick and determine after careful consideration that Flynn + Wilson > Weeden.

Why would they make that determination?

And if you say money, you lose.

Why would AZ stick with such dreck as Kolb/Skelton when money isn't a factor, you MUST have a better QB than those two guys AND Weeden woulda been available?

And if you say they had committed money to Kolb before the draft, you lose. They didn't have to. Weeden woulda been there.

Woulda been cheaper and a clear upgrade, no?

Browns were desperate. Holmgren was desperate. He fucked up the Mangini thing, fucked up the Colt situation, watched that relationship deteriorate when his staff threw a concussed dude out there, overestimated McCoy's ability and was called onto the carpet by an absentee owner and was managing for his job.

DESPERATION.

And people defending it are just as desperate for the situation to change, IMHO, and justify it any way they can.

Do I pray they're right? Yep.

Do I think they're right? Nope.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:47 pm

Hikohadon wrote:I don't need an apology. You should apologize to yourself for letting yourself sound like such a bitch. :cheers:


I understand that's your 'go-to' derogatory play when you're brooding over being called an unrealistic homer, but there's no emotion whatsoever in my posts.

When you allow some objectivity to seep in you'll see it clearer too. But you're still wearing your I <3 the Browns shirt.

I love some of what they've done. Despite PS Game 1 I loved the Schwartz pick. I'm fine with the Richardson move even though I don't think they had to go up to get him. But that's a guy worth going up and getting if you love him.

I don't think Cribbs and Evan Moore make the team and I really don't give a shit if they do.

Think they may have found players in Billy Winn and Brad Smelley and that takes a lot of work.

But the Weeden thing was stupid and it was huge reach for a guy ith a strong arm and maturity beyond most 22 yr old (kinda cuz he's like 30).


Just bad. Bad-bad-bad.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:50 pm

Alls I know is that the Battle of Ohio this year is also going to be the battle for Ginger Supremecy, with the leader in the prime position to lead the Ginger in a monumental uprising...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... conference

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... ger-horror
Last edited by e0y2e3 on Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:57 pm

Hikohadon wrote:I don't need an apology. You should apologize to yourself for letting yourself sound like such a bitch. :cheers:


I understand that's your 'go-to' derogatory play when you're brooding over being called an unrealistic homer (or it's inferred), but there's no emotion whatsoever in my posts.

But don't take criticism of the pick personally like you're binky got pulled because you were dipping it in toilet water.

When you allow some objectivity to seep in you'll see it clearer too. But you're still wearing your I <3 the Browns shirt. Right now you're the kid on the debate team who responds to the other side with "Oh yeah? We'll you're a dick". ;-) ;) :wink:

I love some of what they've done. Despite PS Game 1 I loved the Schwartz pick. I'm fine with the Richardson move even though I don't think they had to go up to get him. But that's a guy worth going up and getting if you love him.

I don't think Cribbs and Evan Moore make the team and I really don't give a shit if they do.

Think they may have found players in Billy Winn and Brad Smelley and that takes a lot of work.

But the Weeden thing was stupid and it was huge reach for a guy ith a strong arm and maturity beyond most 22 yr old (kinda cuz he's like 30).


Just bad. Bad-bad-bad.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:34 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:I don't need an apology. You should apologize to yourself for letting yourself sound like such a bitch. :cheers:


I understand that's your 'go-to' derogatory play when you're brooding over being called an unrealistic homer, but there's no emotion whatsoever in my posts.

When you allow some objectivity to seep in you'll see it clearer too. But you're still wearing your I <3 the Browns shirt.

I love some of what they've done. Despite PS Game 1 I loved the Schwartz pick. I'm fine with the Richardson move even though I don't think they had to go up to get him. But that's a guy worth going up and getting if you love him.

I don't think Cribbs and Evan Moore make the team and I really don't give a shit if they do.

Think they may have found players in Billy Winn and Brad Smelley and that takes a lot of work.

But the Weeden thing was stupid and it was huge reach for a guy ith a strong arm and maturity beyond most 22 yr old (kinda cuz he's like 30).


Just bad. Bad-bad-bad.


Brian, you've been butthurt since the draft about the Weeden pick (and, by association, Weeden), and you're still butthurt now.

On almost any topic, you come across as non-emotional and logical, but your logic on this particular subject to me is like reading the Iliad in Greek upside-down and backwards after someone tossed turpentine onto the ink.

I'm not calling you names. That would be me saying you ARE a bitch, which I know you are not. Me telling you you SOUND like a bitch is the same as a guy at a bar telling his buddy "You need to shut up about your stamp collection, you sound like a huge dork."

I just think you sound really weirdly, overly put-out by this matter. God forbid anyone post anything positive regarding Weeden (like "at least he has a CHANCE of being good", which to you somehow comes off as a glowing review), you start with the smarmy sarcasm and then work your way into a frenzy of fractured thinking. It feels like you're just itching to fight about the guy.

It's like when I dropped my friend off at his house last night and his wife comes storming out of the house yelling at him b/c he didn't call and I was stupid enough to try to defend him when she clearly had no intention of listening to anything I said.

Disclaimer - above example is in no way me calling you a screeching housewife, you bitch. ;-) ;) :wink:

Now, please tell me how stupid I am so we can be done with this. I promise to never-ever say anything nice about Weeden in your presence again.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:48 pm

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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:51 pm

They'd be much better off had they just given Hillis his money and traded up for RG3.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:55 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:They'd be much better off had they just given Hillis his money and traded up for RG3.


On so so so many levels - ::doh::
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:00 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Brian, you've been butthurt since the draft about the Weeden pick (and, by association, Weeden), and you're still butthurt now.

I don't know what that means, honestly. I've said it was a ridiculously stupid decision that I hope works out. But it won't. :salute:

On almost any topic, you come across as non-emotional and logical, but your logic on this particular subject to me is like reading the Iliad in Greek upside-down and backwards after someone tossed turpentine onto the ink.

That's because you don't agree with it. You asked which teams between 8-22 should have lined up for Weeden, I gave you multiple teams that needed QBs prior to the draft and could have selected him over the options they choose very easily and at little additional cost. You didn't like it. Therefore the logic is fractured.

I'm not calling you names. That would be me saying you ARE a bitch, which I know you are not. Me telling you you SOUND like a bitch is the same as a guy at a bar telling his buddy "You need to shut up about your stamp collection, you sound like a huge dork."

I just think you sound really weirdly, overly put-out by this matter. God forbid anyone post anything positive regarding Weeden (like "at least he has a CHANCE of being good", which to you somehow comes off as a glowing review), you start with the smarmy sarcasm and then work your way into a frenzy of fractured thinking. It feels like you're just itching to fight about the guy.

Not at all. Hoping he's Bernie II Electric Boogaloo. Fighting about the fact it was the right/wise move. It wasn't. It was born of panic and disarray. You don't want to accept that because "there's a chance". There's a chance I'll win the next PowerBall if I dump my paycheck into tickets. Others don't want to come to grips that the knock on the kid is his lack of mobility and how he handles pressure. I think those reports were written before he put on a terrific display of them last week. Doesn't mean he'll always exhibit them or that other strengths won't compensate for them. But they're there. In abundance.

Now, please tell me how stupid I am so we can be done with this. I promise to never-ever say anything nice about Weeden in your presence again.

I don't think you're close to stupid. That's why I can't understand how stupid you are about this. ;-) ;) :wink:


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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:03 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:They'd be much better off had they just given Hillis his money and traded up for RG3.


On so so so many levels - ::doh::


Just when I thought you were the dumbest guy in this thread I was reminded of how that can never be true. ;-) ;) :wink: :nanner:
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:07 pm

You'd really take Weeden and Richardson over RG3 and Hillis?
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:09 pm

Good thing i'm here now, eh?

With my positive Browns takes.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:16 pm

peeker643 wrote:I don't think you're close to stupid. That's why I can't understand how stupid you are about this. ;-) ;) :wink:


[/quote]
Likewise. :cheers:
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:19 pm

Why don't you two just get married and be done with it.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:24 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Why don't you two just get married and be done with it.


Incompatible.

He won't listen to a well-reasoned argument.

Now why don't you go fuck yourself? Mmmkay?
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby jb » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:53 pm

Allow me to try to reprise Robert Wuhl on the infield...

Isn't the crux the same ole same ole that the perception of Weeds as a prospect (yes, I said prospect, Peeker, easy ) varries in the eyes of Hiko and I, and Peeker? I mean Seattle? Seattle? Be great if we could move past the ancillary "fan boi" vs "FO/playa hatin'" dichotemy that seems linked to this difference of informed opinion but I know as always I ask too much. We all know time will tell.

Other than that, our beloved & favorite interwebs fuckstick is Manny being Manny (and Sonny Jurgenson says "fuck off") and some feelings were again hurt; par for the course.

About all I can add of any remote value is that Lane Atkins is on record that the Browns really, really, really liked Weeds as a prospect in March independant of any other factors. They had him in their sites as a prospect. This would seem to negate the whole panic/desperation line of reasoning. But I know this will not be convincing on this forum.

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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:51 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Why don't you two just get married and be done with it.


I like my ladies a little more feminine than Peeks.

Not much, but a little. :hide:
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Believeland » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:03 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Alls I know is that the Battle of Ohio this year is also going to be the battle for Ginger Supremecy, with the leader in the prime position to lead the Ginger in a monumental uprising...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... conference

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... ger-horror


Back last season I put together an NFL all ginger team with a co worker with the the stated goal to make si hot clicks.....yes we had some time to stick it to the man. I will be updating the team with the weeds you can count on that.

http://www.raising-redheads.com/support ... r-team.pdf
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:33 pm

Believeland wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Alls I know is that the Battle of Ohio this year is also going to be the battle for Ginger Supremecy, with the leader in the prime position to lead the Ginger in a monumental uprising...

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... conference

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/1 ... ger-horror


Back last season I put together an NFL all ginger team with a co worker with the the stated goal to make si hot clicks.....yes we had some time to stick it to the man. I will be updating the team with the weeds you can count on that.

http://www.raising-redheads.com/support ... r-team.pdf


I'm sure the Running Back and Wide Receiver positions would be just overflowing with quality.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby LarsHancock » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:10 am

jb wrote:Allow me to try to reprise Robert Wuhl on the infield...

Isn't the crux the same ole same ole that the perception of Weeds as a prospect (yes, I said prospect, Peeker, easy ) varries in the eyes of Hiko and I, and Peeker? I mean Seattle? Seattle? Be great if we could move past the ancillary "fan boi" vs "FO/playa hatin'" dichotemy that seems linked to this difference of informed opinion but I know as always I ask too much. We all know time will tell.

Other than that, our beloved & favorite interwebs fuckstick is Manny being Manny (and Sonny Jurgenson says "fuck off") and some feelings were again hurt; par for the course.

About all I can add of any remote value is that Lane Atkins is on record that the Browns really, really, really liked Weeds as a prospect in March independant of any other factors. They had him in their sites as a prospect. This would seem to negate the whole panic/desperation line of reasoning. But I know this will not be convincing on this forum.

Carry on.

The story I heard was that the Browns were ready to match the Redskins' offer for RGIII but wanted to see Weeden's pro day first. And after seeing Weeden make every throw with accuracy and velocity, they told the Rams to pound sand, figuring Weeden would be there for them at #22 and feeling he was every bit the prospect of RGIII.

One thing you can't do anymore is criticize the Browns' drafting. Just look at the what I call "WTF" picks - picks that made draft parties everywhere groan. 2010 - TJ Ward. Solid if not good thumping safety. Everyone thought Taylor Mays was the obvious pick there and now we all know Taylor Mays is horrible. 2010 - Montario Hardesty. I think his explosive potential was well on display, finally, last night. 2011 - Phil Taylor. Seriously disruptive in the inside. 2011 - Greg Little. Quietly has become our #1 receiver. 2011 - Jordan Cameron. "Who???" was the cry, but he's shown flashes of being truly disruptive in the seam as he's a tremendous athlete. 2012 - Mitchell Schwartz. Absolutely mauled the Pack last night. 2012 - John Hughes. Another head scratching groaner, but this kid is a rock and will make our run D a lot tougher.

Point being, we finally have a crew that can identify talent and develop it, and it's starting to show. All the old adages and preconceptions about the Browns are fun to throw around, but may, in fact, be invalid.

The true downside here is that it's going to suck coming up with jokes and things to bitch about when the team performs well on the field and wins 11 games.

Who believes?
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:23 am

LarsHancock wrote:The story I heard was that the Browns were ready to match the Redskins' offer for RGIII but wanted to see Weeden's pro day first. And after seeing Weeden make every throw with accuracy and velocity, they told the Rams to pound sand, figuring Weeden would be there for them at #22 and feeling he was every bit the prospect of RGIII.


Where did you hear that story? I hadn't heard that version. The prevalent story is that the Browns offered 3 firsts and lost out in the bidding to WAS who offered 3 firsts and a second. Holmgren confirmed they made "every bit the offer" as WAS and was bitchy about it afterwards, so clearly they made a serious effort to get RG3 and just failed.

And although I'm one of the ones that likes Weeden a lot as a prospect, I have to disagree with Heckert if he indeed assessed that Weeden was "every bit the prospect" of RG3. RG3 has the arm and accuracy that Weeden does, combined with VASTLY superior mobility. Even if you somehow ranked them dead even, RG3 is a better prospect simply b/c he's 5 years younger.

LarsHancock wrote:Who believes?


I make it a point not to do that.

I'm not a blatant pessimist like some of the skeksis that will attack you later, but I also don't waste my hope on this team until they've proven themselves worth it, and a preseason game will not do that no matter how they looked.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:35 pm

jb wrote:About all I can add of any remote value is that Lane Atkins is on record that the Browns really, really, really liked Weeds as a prospect in March independant of any other factors. They had him in their sites as a prospect. This would seem to negate the whole panic/desperation line of reasoning. But I know this will not be convincing on this forum.

Carry on.


Not eliminating the other stuff for any other reason than this gets to the crux of my PoV, which means little. But you can like a guy a lot and target him as a prospect w/o moving up 15 picks to take him when he's more than likely there later.

If he can play (and I do have questions about his mobility in the pocket and his presence) that will be rendered moot.

He was always an intriguing prospect. And I think he can play. But we all seem to agree elite QBs will get you to heaven and I personally don't see the guy as that. IMO you move up and create the waves they created and generate the pressure they generated for an elite QB, even if that guy will be elite a year or two down the road. I don't have the eyes they have for talent. But what about Weeden qualifies him as elite, if elite is what you need? I understand he's a better option than McCoy. But I don't see 'elite'.

To me he looks a lot like other big armed QBs who have some sense and can throw every route. There's value in that for sure, but not enough to justify the move. Not in my opinion, which again means nothing.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:39 pm

He has an elite arm, and his accuracy in college was pretty good, certainly could be "elite" if he gets in an NFL comfort zone.

Of course, that won't help at all if he can't read defenses and makes bad decisions and checks down at first pressure because he's rattled. Been plenty of guys come into the NFL with elite arms that simply can't get it done. There was one here a couple years ago.
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:02 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:You'd really take Weeden and Richardson over RG3 and Hillis?


Since RG3 would've cost 3 firsts and a 2nd, it's "You'd really take Weeden and Richardson and Schwartz and next year's 1st round pick over RG3 and Hillis?"

Hillis is a headcase. And he gets hurt a lot. And he's mediocre.

The Browns tried to trade for RG3. They just failed.

"Hey, Brian Sipe, you should've thrown that ball to Ozzie instead of Mike Davis."

"Thanks, I tried."
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Re: 11 wins

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:30 pm

Again, it's not whether we prefer Weeden to RGIII. No one here is dumb enough to take that. Same issue with the Julio Jones pick. Do we want:

Phil Taylor + Weeden ---- Julio Jones
T-rich + our first next year ----- RGIII

I tend to agree with Peeks in that the pick was a reach, but only in that it should have been our second rounder. Had Kendall Wright been on the board, there's a good chance it would have been. The only reason I was onboard with the package that it was rumored we offered STL is because we had 2 first rounders this year; it would have only killed one year of development. Unless RGIII is a star, the price Washington paid was overkill; factoring in their cap problems, they are in a world of hurt, even if he produces.

It probably was a reach at 22, but I agree with Hiko (with objectivity involved) that Weeden has the potential, be it 15-20%, to get to that elite tier. We're already seeing more 15+ yard passes in the preseason than I think we saw this offense execute all year. Throw out the bullshit failshow screen plays and dropped passes, and Weeden played a MUCH better game yesterday....and there wasn't anything that would suggest he isnt capable of doing it on sundays.

Don't expect him to play well enough to save the current FO's job, but I expect him to reach league average, at a minimum, for at least a few years. After the last 10 years, i'm grinning ear to ear about "average"
Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.
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