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Vala in olympics

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Vala in olympics

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:38 am

Just looked into Jonas Valanciunas stats:
25 points in 6 games for a 4.17 ppg average.
I know he's 20 years old, so I'm sure he has room to grow into his game.
I just figured he be more of an integral part of Lithuania's offense.
I know I have been chastising the Cavs for not drafting him at 4 last year.
I haven't had an opportunity to watch Lithuania, so I can't comment on how he looked.

Edit: Just looked up his Euroleague stats
In '10-11 he averaged 7.7 ppg on 71% shooting, 6 rpg, 88% Ft
In '11-12 he averaged 10.8 ppg on 63% shooting, 7.6 rpg, 80% FT
Career highs: 15 points, 11 boards
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:50 am

Here's Simmons' take (my favorite part is in bold):

Even if the Timofey Mozgov/Jonas Valanciunas center battle didn't bring back memories of Russell and Chamberlain, or even Dave Cowens and Tom Boerwinkle, I loved watching the guy who nearly derailed the Carmelo deal before realizing his meaninglessbackupbigmanian destiny in Denver (Mozgov) outplaying the top-five lottery pick that Toronto stashed away last summer (Valanciunas). On the bright side for Raptors fans …

1. Even if Valanciunas doesn't seem like he knows where to go or what to do, and even if his pick-and-roll defense could only be described as calamitous, he's only 20 AND he hustles. So there's hope.



Hmmm.... that analysis seems familiar....

Even if Tristan Thompson doesn't seem like he knows where to go or what to do, and even if his pick-and-roll defense could only be described as calamitous,



Fixed it.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:08 am

1) you are reading Bill Simmons

2) discussing a quality offensive player (Vala) struggling on defense and comparing that to a shitty offensive player struggling on defense is night and day.

We'll see on Vala, but having a few offensive skills makes him a different level prospect than TT when you consider that TT has zero.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:16 pm

They both blow.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:26 pm

Orenthal wrote:They both blow.



There's what I was going for.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:06 pm

I wouldn't say that, Vala did shit on everyone his own age and has the higher ceiling.

I don't think one will necessarily be better than the other, but I'll always take the ceiling in that situation.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:22 pm

Who will be better? Vala or Zeller?
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:58 am

Ceiling vs. current serviceability.

I don't know about Vala, but I do shudder at the prospects of Zeller going against athletic size in the NBA.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:21 am

e0y2e3 wrote:I wouldn't say that, Vala did shit on everyone his own age and has the higher ceiling.

I don't think one will necessarily be better than the other, but I'll always take the ceiling in that situation.



Don't get me wrong, I'd take the upside of Vala 100 times out of 100, even before seeing TT. But let's just say, I'm not as mad about passing on him anymore.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:07 pm

^Exactly.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby rk » Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:30 pm

googleeph2 wrote:Ceiling vs. current serviceability.

I don't know about Vala, but I do shudder at the prospects of Zeller going against athletic size in the NBA.


Really? I don't have any real fear about that. Zeller has just as much bulk now as Z had when he finished. He has room to tack on bulk too and will probably be playing at around 260 if he settles into the NBA. He has plenty of athletism and can jump and move his feet - two things that Z never could do even before his surgeries.

Also he can dunk. Which Z could not do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... bL4#t=149s

Not to mention that there just aren't very many big guys out there for him to defend against anymore. Not like there are a lot of Shaq's standing around 300lbs. Even Dewey is only 265 which there's a pretty good chance under an NBA training program that Zeller is nearly the same weight after a couple years.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby googleeph2 » Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:47 pm

Straight-up question- no agenda, rk: then why didn't Zeller go higher?
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby rk » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:15 am

googleeph2 wrote:Straight-up question- no agenda, rk: then why didn't Zeller go higher?


I don't know but I can think of three possible reasons. First, unless a big man is capable of being as physically dominant offensively and defensively as DH then teams are going to consider them role players and it's hard to pull the trigger on a guy that early who's potential isn't all that much more than you are already getting. Most of the lotto teams are drafting upside in the hopes they land the next centerpiece of their team. And I don't think Zeller fits that category at all.

Secondly there is just not much room in a good offense for a traditional center. I don't get scared about his ability to defend against bigger guys even though I don't think he'll be able to go toe-to-toe with the few really great ones left in the NBA for a full game. But neither can anyone else and there are only a handful out there. I think he isn't much of a shotblocker (1.5 a game) for his size which is a problem if he's late helping on a penetration by a smaller guy in the NBA. To me that means he's going to play more like a tamer, less annoying version of Andy defensively than someone able to control the middle like Dwight.

Third I am also more concerned about his ability to get inside and score on smaller guys - using his size to work inside. In college I thought he did more scoring further away from the basket then he should which to me means he's going to play like a 6'10 C on offense rather than a true 7'. Like a Nowitski lite - which is a problem because there are very, very few Nowitski's in the world who can elevate their game in the NBA. There's a lot of wannabe's in college (and European leagues) who can manage well enough that they think it'll translate.

I think he was drafted a few picks later than he could have been but I don't think, in the modern NBA, that he was worth more than the pick the Cavs used on him. He has enough holes in his game and is older so it's less likely he can overcome them in the NBA although it has been done before. I do think he is capable of being your 4th scoring option on a playoff team and will give you enough size, particularly if paired with a good athletic shot blocker at the 4, that you can handle bigger teams. Not so sure he should be logging 36 minutes against smaller, faster teams.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:09 am

This season's stats on three draft picks we've discussed in detail...
And I threw Zeller in there to illustrate his production vs Vala and TT. Vala and Zeller's stats are eerily similar!

G......GS.....MPG.....FG%......3p%.....FT%.....OFF.....DEF...RPG....APG...SPG...BPG......TO.......PF.....PPG
Vala
28.....28.....22.4.....52.4%....0.0%....70.3%.....1.9.......3.3.....5.3......1.1.......0.3....1.1......1.3......2.9......7.8
TT
29.....29.....30.0.....46.8%....0.0%....56.6%.....3.4.......4.8.....8.2......1.0.......0.8....0.7......1.5......3.0......8.7
Dion W
21.....21.....31.7.....37.1%....31.4%...74.1%....0.2.......2.2.....2.4......3.5.......1.1......0.2....2.0......2.0.....14.7
Zeller
25......3......23.7.....44.7%.....0.0%.....68.0%....2.0.......3.1.....5.2......0.8......0.6.......0.6....1.2......3.2......7.8
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:47 pm

I never realized this before. Toronto received the #5 pick that they used on Vala from Miami in the Bosh S&T. Toronto also got the draft rights to Norris Cole in the deal. (After a few more trades he ended up back in Miami.) How do the Raptors get that for Bosh and we got a pile of shit for LBJ? They were both gun to the head S&Ts, why would Toronto get the best asset in the deal?
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:52 pm

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:I never realized this before. Toronto received the #5 pick that they used on Vala from Miami in the Bosh S&T. Toronto also got the draft rights to Norris Cole in the deal. (After a few more trades he ended up back in Miami.) How do the Raptors get that for Bosh and we got a pile of shit for LBJ? They were both gun to the head S&Ts, why would Toronto get the best asset in the deal?


Don't recall the timing or if it's actuality, but did they pull trigger first? If so (because of Stepien Rule and because of the timing of The Decision) maybe Cavs had to take the next available first from Miami?

Not sure on any of that. Someone will know though. But he's kind of an ill-tempered, condescending hipster ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby StewieG » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:56 pm

Yeah, I believe Bosh signed first.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:01 pm

StewieG wrote:Yeah, I believe Bosh signed first.

Just one more way LBJ screwed us.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:32 pm

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:I never realized this before. Toronto received the #5 pick that they used on Vala from Miami in the Bosh S&T. Toronto also got the draft rights to Norris Cole in the deal. (After a few more trades he ended up back in Miami.) How do the Raptors get that for Bosh and we got a pile of shit for LBJ? They were both gun to the head S&Ts, why would Toronto get the best asset in the deal?


Don't think so. The Heat made the playoffs even without LeBron and Bosh, and obviously did after their arrival. The pick was the Raps.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:27 am

Orenthal wrote:Don't think so. The Heat made the playoffs even without LeBron and Bosh, and obviously did after their arrival. The pick was the Raps.

I got it from the transactions section on his B-Ref page:
July 10, 2010: Traded by the Miami Heat (as a 2011 1st round draft pick) with a 2011 1st round draft pick (Norris Cole) to the Toronto Raptors for Chris Bosh. Toronto also received a trade exception from Miami.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nced::none
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:38 pm

On February 22, 2011, the Chicago Bulls acquired Miami's 2011 first-round draft pick from the Toronto Raptors in exchange for James Johnson. Previously, on July 9, 2010, the Raptors re-acquired their 2011 first-round draft pick while also acquired Miami's 2011 first-round draft pick and a trade exception from the Miami Heat in exchange for Chris Bosh. Previously, on February 14, 2009, the Heat acquired Jermaine O'Neal, Jamario Moon, a 2011 first-round draft pick and a 2010 second-round draft pick from the Raptors in exchange for Shawn Marion, Marcus Banks and cash considerations.

^From Wiki. Toronto traded the pick to Miami and then reaquired it... Hmmm, I'm guess the Toronto pick was lottery protected when they originally dealt it to Miami. Either way I do not think Miami knowingly traded the number 5 pick in a S&T. It just wouldn't happen.
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Re: Vala in olympics

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:48 pm

I know its only summer league, but...

http://nba.si.com/2013/07/19/jonas-vala ... &eref=sihp

Most of us knew we would likely regret passing on this young man for TT.
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