Text Size

Cleveland Indians & MLB

Jason Knapp Released

Talk Tribe, talk baseball in this forum.

Moderators: peeker643, swerb, pup, paulcousineau

Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:59 pm

Wow, our front office never ceases to amaze me. Well done Shapiro, you made a damaged goods 18 year old that nobody wanted the key component to a trade for a Cy Young winner. How can anyone defend this guy anymore? What a joke our FO is. I love this team but there is no way we can ever compete with a cheap owner and incompetent assholes running our team.
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:24 pm

Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.
User avatar
dazindiansfanuk
Tyner Is God
 
Posts: 8982
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Cardiff, UK
Favorite Player: Jhonny Peralta
Least Favorite Player: Curt Schilling

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:55 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.


Is that true? You can't get an MRI on a minor leaguer before a trade?
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7731
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:57 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.


Is that true? You can't get an MRI on a minor leaguer before a trade?


Yep.... you only have access to already held medical records.
User avatar
dazindiansfanuk
Tyner Is God
 
Posts: 8982
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Cardiff, UK
Favorite Player: Jhonny Peralta
Least Favorite Player: Curt Schilling

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:59 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.


Is that true? You can't get an MRI on a minor leaguer before a trade?


Yep


Wow. I had no idea. That's pretty fucking dumb.

I agree with your post. And I never really held it too much against the Tribe for trading for Knapp. But geez, I always thought they had the guy checked out from top to bottom before pulling that trigger.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7731
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:00 pm

Apparently he wanted a third shoulder operation, but the Indians didn't want to go that route with him. I guess if your first two shoulder operations don't fix you, the third one won't, either. Can't blame the team for this move.

They took a big gamble and lost with him. Without these arm troubles, he could have really been something, and we'd maybe even be getting close to seeing him in Cleveland. Really sad to have that much talent and never even have the chance to make it big.

Still think the Phillies knew his arm problems were career-threatening and acted in bad faith, but they had Shapiro over a barrel because everyone knew he was ordered to cut payroll and he had to take the best offer he could find. He wasn't able to haggle or hold out for more and they knew it.

Now that he's released, who wants to bet New York picks him up and pays for that third surgery, and his magically-restored arm goes on to win 200 games?
User avatar
Adverb Harry
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:30 pm
Location: Souvenir City
Favorite Player: Jason Kipnis
Least Favorite Player: Ubaldo, Bud Selig

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:32 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.


Is that true? You can't get an MRI on a minor leaguer before a trade?


Yep


Wow. I had no idea. That's pretty fucking dumb.

I agree with your post. And I never really held it too much against the Tribe for trading for Knapp. But geez, I always thought they had the guy checked out from top to bottom before pulling that trigger.


If they allowed it, guys would have holes all over them. It'd be like torture the amount of needles they'd stick you with. :spar: And glowing in the dark from all the radiation. ::doh:: :tfh:
Nobody, I mean nobody, voluntarily becomes a Cleveland sports fan.

"This team could fuck up a ham sandwich." -CDT
User avatar
bookelly
Happy Easter!!
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:58 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Favorite Player: My bunny hunny
Least Favorite Player: Elmer Fudd

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:37 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.


Is that true? You can't get an MRI on a minor leaguer before a trade?


Yep


Wow. I had no idea. That's pretty fucking dumb.

I agree with your post. And I never really held it too much against the Tribe for trading for Knapp. But geez, I always thought they had the guy checked out from top to bottom before pulling that trigger.


You're a dentist and the HIPPA regs surprise you?

I hate you.

(I don't)
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22632
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:58 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.

The potential was definitely there and nobody would ever argue that. However the red flags were there too. When you're trading Casey Blake you can take a risk and miss. When you're trading a Cy Young winner you need to be make every man count. You can't take risks on maybes with such a big trading chip.
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Not really, I guess. I just find it surprising that a team cannot do any due diligence on an injured (or not) asset they may be trading for.

NFL team can poke and prod and do any damn thing they want to a dude before drafting him. MLB teams cannot request an MRI prior to trading for him? People can sign HIPPA releases.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7731
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:04 pm

andrew6586 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.

The potential was definitely there and nobody would ever argue that. However the red flags were there too. When you're trading Casey Blake you can take a risk and miss. When you're trading a Cy Young winner you need to be make every man count. You can't take risks on maybes with such a big trading chip.


I won't take issue with that arguement.... you want a more sure thing for a Cy Young winner, that's understandable. But, calling Knapp what you called him is wrong in my opinion.

If the pressure from ownership to deal Lee was real, it's hard to hold the front office accountable..... we'll probably never know if it was.

Hey, let's just hope the stars align and Carrasco gets back next year to a level that makes us forget Knapp altogether..... :bag:
User avatar
dazindiansfanuk
Tyner Is God
 
Posts: 8982
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Cardiff, UK
Favorite Player: Jhonny Peralta
Least Favorite Player: Curt Schilling

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:07 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Not really, I guess. I just find it surprising that a team cannot do any due diligence on an injured (or not) asset they may be trading for.

NFL team can poke and prod and do any damn thing they want to a dude before drafting him. MLB teams cannot request an MRI prior to trading for him? People can sign HIPPA releases.


You can request the guys current medical records, but you can't go beyond that.

It is messed up, but no MRI was done by the Phillies, so that's where it left the Tribe - in the land of guess work.
User avatar
dazindiansfanuk
Tyner Is God
 
Posts: 8982
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Cardiff, UK
Favorite Player: Jhonny Peralta
Least Favorite Player: Curt Schilling

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:15 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Not really, I guess. I just find it surprising that a team cannot do any due diligence on an injured (or not) asset they may be trading for.

NFL team can poke and prod and do any damn thing they want to a dude before drafting him. MLB teams cannot request an MRI prior to trading for him? People can sign HIPPA releases.


You can request the guys current medical records, but you can't go beyond that.

It is messed up, but no MRI was done by the Phillies, so that's where it left the Tribe - in the land of guess work.


My understanding is it was negotiated into the current CBA.
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22632
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:42 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
andrew6586 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Well, in the interest of fact over hysteria, Knapp was actually a highly thought of arm that the Indians knew was hurt but, as the Phillies hadn't done an MRI and the fact that teams can't do an MRI on minor leaguer before a trade, they took a bit of a gamble that the injury wasn't serious.

At no point was Jason Knapp an "18 year old that nobody wanted".

You can argue that it was a bad gamble to trade a Cy Young winner for a pitcher with an injury (rightfully so with hindsight), but you can't question Knapps talent.

The potential was definitely there and nobody would ever argue that. However the red flags were there too. When you're trading Casey Blake you can take a risk and miss. When you're trading a Cy Young winner you need to be make every man count. You can't take risks on maybes with such a big trading chip.


I won't take issue with that arguement.... you want a more sure thing for a Cy Young winner, that's understandable. But, calling Knapp what you called him is wrong in my opinion.

If the pressure from ownership to deal Lee was real, it's hard to hold the front office accountable..... we'll probably never know if it was.

Hey, let's just hope the stars align and Carrasco gets back next year to a level that makes us forget Knapp altogether..... :bag:

Fair enough. However it just boggles my mind how our FO could trade for a guy on the the disabled list. That trip to the DL eventually turned into Tommy John surgery.
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:49 pm

Is mo permitted to know if somebody has any cavities before he takes them as a patient?
Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
"I heard your dog is sick, so bought you this shovel"

2011 TCF Stratomatic Champ
User avatar
FUDU
 
Posts: 13356
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:02 am
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby justmebd » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:57 pm

Knapp's injury history aside, I still believe trading a Cy Young award winner for anything less than proven major league talent is bullshit.

I know the "realities" are what they are, but if you have the gold, use it.

FUCK this FO. I was going to go into a longer rant, but this quote from Christmas Vacation will suffice, edited for topicality.

Hey! If any of you are looking for any last-minute gift ideas for me, I have one. I'd like Mark Shapiro, the idiot in charge of The Indians, right here tonight. I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?
User avatar
justmebd
 
Posts: 1451
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Youngstown, OH
Favorite Player: Gary Gygax
Least Favorite Player: Heinz Field Occupant

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:01 pm

Even though the Indians front office needs cleaned out from top to bottom, it would be wise to point out that pretty much everyone the Phillies traded that year turned out to be a giant turd.

They shipped off outfielders Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor and pitcher Kyle Drabek for Roy Halladay. They wouldn't give JA Happ to the Indians and later shipped him, Anthony Gose, and Jonathan Villar to the Astros for Roy Oswalt. Then last year the Phils traded a wheelbarrow of shit for Hunter Pence.

The Indians probably made the best trade out of all of those, and it still blows.
GodHatesClevelandSport
 
Posts: 1171
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:48 am
Favorite Player: Joe Smith
Least Favorite Player: Joe Smith

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:28 pm

And didn't Lee return a bag of balls when the Phillies traded him to the Mariners?
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
User avatar
e0y2e3
Et Tu, Brute?
 
Posts: 13982
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:41 pm
Favorite Player: Prosecutor
Least Favorite Player: motherscratcher

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:44 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Even though the Indians front office needs cleaned out from top to bottom, it would be wise to point out that pretty much everyone the Phillies traded that year turned out to be a giant turd.

They shipped off outfielders Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor and pitcher Kyle Drabek for Roy Halladay. They wouldn't give JA Happ to the Indians and later shipped him, Anthony Gose, and Jonathan Villar to the Astros for Roy Oswalt. Then last year the Phils traded a wheelbarrow of shit for Hunter Pence.

The Indians probably made the best trade out of all of those, and it still blows.



Yeah, I noticed that too. Lou Marson has been the most productive member of those Phillies top prospects from that year. Although Gose just got called up and has a chance to be special
Alex White: Just like School on Sunday......No Class.
User avatar
Dnthateonthepronk
 
Posts: 1823
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:57 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
Favorite Player: Dan Marino
Least Favorite Player: Alex Rodriguez

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:06 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Even though the Indians front office needs cleaned out from top to bottom, it would be wise to point out that pretty much everyone the Phillies traded that year turned out to be a giant turd.

They shipped off outfielders Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor and pitcher Kyle Drabek for Roy Halladay. They wouldn't give JA Happ to the Indians and later shipped him, Anthony Gose, and Jonathan Villar to the Astros for Roy Oswalt. Then last year the Phils traded a wheelbarrow of shit for Hunter Pence.

The Indians probably made the best trade out of all of those, and it still blows.


Yessir. And that's the point of having a hype machine gloss your top prospects. They have value before they're found out to be ground meat instead of Ribeyes. Carlos Carrasco and Marson were rated top 45 prospects at the time of the deal. So was Matt LaPorta.

I guess we can still hold out some hope that Carrasco comes back as a solid MLB #2 or #3 down the road. Of course, it will be just in time for him to hit his free agency year, but...
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22632
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:21 am

peeker643 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Even though the Indians front office needs cleaned out from top to bottom, it would be wise to point out that pretty much everyone the Phillies traded that year turned out to be a giant turd.

They shipped off outfielders Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor and pitcher Kyle Drabek for Roy Halladay. They wouldn't give JA Happ to the Indians and later shipped him, Anthony Gose, and Jonathan Villar to the Astros for Roy Oswalt. Then last year the Phils traded a wheelbarrow of shit for Hunter Pence.

The Indians probably made the best trade out of all of those, and it still blows.


Yessir. And that's the point of having a hype machine gloss your top prospects. They have value before they're found out to be ground meat instead of Ribeyes. Carlos Carrasco and Marson were rated top 45 prospects at the time of the deal. So was Matt LaPorta.

I guess we can still hold out some hope that Carrasco comes back as a solid MLB #2 or #3 down the road. Of course, it will be just in time for him to hit his free agency year, but...

Eureka! There's the answer peek: we don't need better scouting or draft picks, we need a better PR machine! Brilliant! :thumb up:
I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.~~~Annie Savoy-"Bull Durham"
User avatar
Am I Here Again?
Tribe-a-Holic
 
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 1:28 am
Location: In exile in MA :-(
Favorite Player: Sam McDowell
Least Favorite Player: Any Red Sox or Yank

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby gotribe31 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:36 am

Wow, what a thread. We've got Knapp identifed as being on the DL at the time of the trade (he wasn't), Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor being traded for Halladay (Brown is still a Phillie minor leaguer), Knapp being identified as an "18-year old no one wanted", Knapp having TJ surgery (if only it were that simple; pitchers come back from TJ, not so easy with shoulder injuries) people demanding MRI's that couldn't be conducted and of course all the experts who "know" that the Indians must have passed up Mike Trout in an offer from the Angels to get Knapp from the Phillies. Awesome.

The trade hasn't worked out. It happens. Believe it or not, they got more than the other two teams that also traded Lee, regardless of Knapp's issues. The Phillies had a really well-regarded farm system by all of the "experts" at the time, and really none of those guys have panned out. The entire industry missed on those guys for whatever reason. Carrasco is looking like the best major leaguer out of the group, and so far that includes Brown who wasn't dealt. Justin Smoak looks like a poor man's Matt LaPorta. If you include the Halladay deal, Drabek has stepped on his crank in every major league chance, Taylor is 26 and has played 17 games in the majors, and D'Arnaud is one of if not the top catching prospects in the minors. And we all know those always work out.

I'm not saying the front office is perfect. I'm not saying they haven't made mistakes. I'm not saying that they pulled a fast one on the Phillies when they dealt them Lee. But at least compare the deals in the proper context, and understand the realities of the situation at the time. To suggest that the front office ignored the advice of doctors and took a flier on Knapp anyway just isn't true. They trusted the Phillies and their medical team, a mistake that they likely won't be making again.

In retrospect, yes, the deal sucked. But Lee wasn't resigning, and if ownership directed the FO to trade him at the deadline that year no matter what (which I still maintain was likely the case), then they had to pull the trigger on what they thought was the best deal on the table. Maybe the Braves were offering Heyward, Teheran and Delgado, but until I see actual evidence of another, better deal that they turned down in favor of this one, I'm going to chalk this up to "it is what it is" and move on.
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves
-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts.
-----Lars
User avatar
gotribe31
 
Posts: 2490
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:38 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA
Favorite Player: Francisco Lindor
Least Favorite Player: Michigan

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:08 am

gotribe31 wrote:Wow, what a thread. We've got Knapp identifed as being on the DL at the time of the trade (he wasn't), Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor being traded for Halladay (Brown is still a Phillie minor leaguer), Knapp being identified as an "18-year old no one wanted", Knapp having TJ surgery (if only it were that simple; pitchers come back from TJ, not so easy with shoulder injuries) people demanding MRI's that couldn't be conducted and of course all the experts who "know" that the Indians must have passed up Mike Trout in an offer from the Angels to get Knapp from the Phillies. Awesome.

The trade hasn't worked out. It happens. Believe it or not, they got more than the other two teams that also traded Lee, regardless of Knapp's issues. The Phillies had a really well-regarded farm system by all of the "experts" at the time, and really none of those guys have panned out. The entire industry missed on those guys for whatever reason. Carrasco is looking like the best major leaguer out of the group, and so far that includes Brown who wasn't dealt. Justin Smoak looks like a poor man's Matt LaPorta. If you include the Halladay deal, Drabek has stepped on his crank in every major league chance, Taylor is 26 and has played 17 games in the majors, and D'Arnaud is one of if not the top catching prospects in the minors. And we all know those always work out.

I'm not saying the front office is perfect. I'm not saying they haven't made mistakes. I'm not saying that they pulled a fast one on the Phillies when they dealt them Lee. But at least compare the deals in the proper context, and understand the realities of the situation at the time. To suggest that the front office ignored the advice of doctors and took a flier on Knapp anyway just isn't true. They trusted the Phillies and their medical team, a mistake that they likely won't be making again.

In retrospect, yes, the deal sucked. But Lee wasn't resigning, and if ownership directed the FO to trade him at the deadline that year no matter what (which I still maintain was likely the case), then they had to pull the trigger on what they thought was the best deal on the table. Maybe the Braves were offering Heyward, Teheran and Delgado, but until I see actual evidence of another, better deal that they turned down in favor of this one, I'm going to chalk this up to "it is what it is" and move on.


Knapp certainly was on the DL. I remember feeling uneasy about him at the time. I probably misspoke about nobody wanting him but it at least seemed like the Phillies were ready to give up on him.
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:22 am

Knapp wasn't on the DL when the trade was made.... he was battling some shoulder soreness, but made 4 appearances for the Tribe before being shutdown.
User avatar
dazindiansfanuk
Tyner Is God
 
Posts: 8982
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:21 am
Location: Cardiff, UK
Favorite Player: Jhonny Peralta
Least Favorite Player: Curt Schilling

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:59 am

What gotribe said is absolutely right. We could have gotten Drabek, Brown and Taylor we'd still could have ended up with very little to show for that deal when it's all said and done. Just imagine the gnashing of teeth around here had three big time prospects all had flamed out.

Same can be said for Colorado with White and Pommeranz.

Crap shoot. Sweet Lou may turn out to be the best big leaguer of all of the Phillies former "can't miss" prospects. Go figure.
Don't go away mad, just go away.
User avatar
WiscTribeFan
Mook
 
Posts: 2681
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:10 pm
Location: Kenosha, WI
Favorite Player: Me
Least Favorite Player: You

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:25 am

Points of order:


Shoulder surgery is not Tommy John surgery (it's worse).


It's HIPAA not HIPPA.


Dominic Brown is currently starting for the Phillies.


The Indians were screwed either way. The guy they should have demanded (Drabek) is able to pitch and has been terrible. The guy they really should have taken (hindsight and all) was Travis D'Arnaud (catcher), who was traded to the Blue Jays in the Halladay deal and is now a top 5 prospect in baseball.


EDIT: Should have read the entire post after noticing the numerous mistakes as gotribe hit on all of them (except HIPAA).
Last edited by rebelwithoutaclue on Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fuck the Browns...
User avatar
rebelwithoutaclue
 
Posts: 3639
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 11:43 am
Location: Under them Skies of Blue
Favorite Player: Kyrie Irving
Least Favorite Player: Mike Lombardi

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:25 am

gotribe31 wrote:Wow, what a thread. We've got Knapp identifed as being on the DL at the time of the trade (he wasn't), Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor being traded for Halladay (Brown is still a Phillie minor leaguer), Knapp being identified as an "18-year old no one wanted", Knapp having TJ surgery (if only it were that simple; pitchers come back from TJ, not so easy with shoulder injuries) people demanding MRI's that couldn't be conducted and of course all the experts who "know" that the Indians must have passed up Mike Trout in an offer from the Angels to get Knapp from the Phillies. Awesome.

The trade hasn't worked out. It happens. Believe it or not, they got more than the other two teams that also traded Lee, regardless of Knapp's issues. The Phillies had a really well-regarded farm system by all of the "experts" at the time, and really none of those guys have panned out. The entire industry missed on those guys for whatever reason. Carrasco is looking like the best major leaguer out of the group, and so far that includes Brown who wasn't dealt. Justin Smoak looks like a poor man's Matt LaPorta. If you include the Halladay deal, Drabek has stepped on his crank in every major league chance, Taylor is 26 and has played 17 games in the majors, and D'Arnaud is one of if not the top catching prospects in the minors. And we all know those always work out.

I'm not saying the front office is perfect. I'm not saying they haven't made mistakes. I'm not saying that they pulled a fast one on the Phillies when they dealt them Lee. But at least compare the deals in the proper context, and understand the realities of the situation at the time. To suggest that the front office ignored the advice of doctors and took a flier on Knapp anyway just isn't true. They trusted the Phillies and their medical team, a mistake that they likely won't be making again.

In retrospect, yes, the deal sucked. But Lee wasn't resigning, and if ownership directed the FO to trade him at the deadline that year no matter what (which I still maintain was likely the case), then they had to pull the trigger on what they thought was the best deal on the table. Maybe the Braves were offering Heyward, Teheran and Delgado, but until I see actual evidence of another, better deal that they turned down in favor of this one, I'm going to chalk this up to "it is what it is" and move on.


I love when gotribe bitchslaps an entire thread. :thumb up:

FTR gotribe, I wasn't demanding an MRI. I was just expressing my surprise that it isn't something that is allowed. It just seems strange to me when there is so much at stake.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7731
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:27 am

I feel like Dad yelled at me.

I will be honest though I was jealous that Seattle got Smoak from Texas for Lee. I did like that deal much better at the time.
Alex White: Just like School on Sunday......No Class.
User avatar
Dnthateonthepronk
 
Posts: 1823
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:57 pm
Location: Virginia Beach
Favorite Player: Dan Marino
Least Favorite Player: Alex Rodriguez

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:32 am

gotribe31 wrote:
In retrospect, yes, the deal sucked. But Lee wasn't resigning, and if ownership directed the FO to trade him at the deadline that year no matter what (which I still maintain was likely the case), then they had to pull the trigger on what they thought was the best deal on the table. Maybe the Braves were offering Heyward, Teheran and Delgado, but until I see actual evidence of another, better deal that they turned down in favor of this one, I'm going to chalk this up to "it is what it is" and move on.


The Braves were offering those three??!?!? And Shapiro turned it down in favor of the crap he got??

Kidding...
User avatar
Adverb Harry
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:30 pm
Location: Souvenir City
Favorite Player: Jason Kipnis
Least Favorite Player: Ubaldo, Bud Selig

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:50 am

Knapp's injury history aside, I still believe trading a Cy Young award winner for anything less than proven major league talent is bullshit.


What do you think of the Colon for Phillips, Sizemore, and Cliff Lee deal?

The Indians have been trying to recreate that trade for years because making a deal like that every 2-3 years is their only chance to make it to the top of the mountain.

The Expos probably would not have made that deal if they didn't think their franchise was going away at the end of the season. So you're not going to see teams give up packages like that anymore. Except maybe if Ubaldo Jimenez is available. ::doh::

We'll keep trading our Victor Martinez's, CC Sabathias, and Cliff Lees for the Jason Donalds, Lou Marsons, Matt LaPortas, and 18-year-olds who can throw 100 mph but have sore arms. If we're lucky we'll get a Michael Brantley or two.
Prosecutor
Plutonian Outliers
 
Posts: 2869
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:51 am

Oops, you are right, gotribe. I listed the rumored guys to be traded for Halladay as the guys who actually were traded for Halladay. It was actually Drabek, Michael Taylor, and Travis D'Arnaud, which is still kinda meh.

Just adds another name to the pile of Craigslist crap the Phils were getting rid of around that time.
GodHatesClevelandSport
 
Posts: 1171
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:48 am
Favorite Player: Joe Smith
Least Favorite Player: Joe Smith

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:31 pm

http://mobile.cleveland.sbnation.com/20 ... p-released
According to this and a couple of other sites, he was on the DL at the time of the trade. I think he came off just after it and then got shut down. I was wrong about the arm though. It was Tommy John but it was still a bad injury. Either way. He was damaged goods from the start.
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:33 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Wow, what a thread. We've got Knapp identifed as being on the DL at the time of the trade (he wasn't), Dominic Brown and Michael Taylor being traded for Halladay (Brown is still a Phillie minor leaguer), Knapp being identified as an "18-year old no one wanted", Knapp having TJ surgery (if only it were that simple; pitchers come back from TJ, not so easy with shoulder injuries) people demanding MRI's that couldn't be conducted and of course all the experts who "know" that the Indians must have passed up Mike Trout in an offer from the Angels to get Knapp from the Phillies. Awesome.

The trade hasn't worked out. It happens. Believe it or not, they got more than the other two teams that also traded Lee, regardless of Knapp's issues. The Phillies had a really well-regarded farm system by all of the "experts" at the time, and really none of those guys have panned out. The entire industry missed on those guys for whatever reason. Carrasco is looking like the best major leaguer out of the group, and so far that includes Brown who wasn't dealt. Justin Smoak looks like a poor man's Matt LaPorta. If you include the Halladay deal, Drabek has stepped on his crank in every major league chance, Taylor is 26 and has played 17 games in the majors, and D'Arnaud is one of if not the top catching prospects in the minors. And we all know those always work out.

I'm not saying the front office is perfect. I'm not saying they haven't made mistakes. I'm not saying that they pulled a fast one on the Phillies when they dealt them Lee. But at least compare the deals in the proper context, and understand the realities of the situation at the time. To suggest that the front office ignored the advice of doctors and took a flier on Knapp anyway just isn't true. They trusted the Phillies and their medical team, a mistake that they likely won't be making again.

In retrospect, yes, the deal sucked. But Lee wasn't resigning, and if ownership directed the FO to trade him at the deadline that year no matter what (which I still maintain was likely the case), then they had to pull the trigger on what they thought was the best deal on the table. Maybe the Braves were offering Heyward, Teheran and Delgado, but until I see actual evidence of another, better deal that they turned down in favor of this one, I'm going to chalk this up to "it is what it is" and move on.

The fact that we could have gotten other garbage players shouldn't comfort anyone. The fact is you trade a major leaguer for a major leaguer. Not what ifs and could bes.
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:37 pm

I'm sure you can find an example of any kind of trade you want to. But, the vast majority of trades involve major leaguers for prospect(s). Teams buy and sell major leaguers depending on their circumstance. Prospects are the currency.

Who on the major league roster should we have expected Philly to give up for Lee?
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7731
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:40 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I'm sure you can find an example of any kind of trade you want to. But, the vast majority of trades involve major leaguers for prospect(s). Teams buy and sell major leaguers depending on their circumstance. Prospects are the currency.

Who on the major league roster should we have expected Philly to give up for Lee?

Philly wouldn't have given is anyone which is why I wouldn't have made a deal with Philly. I would have gone elsewhere.
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:42 pm

andrew6586 wrote:Philly wouldn't have given is anyone which is why I wouldn't have made a deal with Philly. I would have gone elsewhere.


Nobody would have given anything of Major League value.

Teams at the trade deadline are BUYING. Which means they're trying to improve their ML club. They're not going to trade off parts of their ML team. They're going to trade prospects. Been standard operating procedure forever with deals like this.

Remind me what Major Leaguers the Nats gave up for Gio Gonzalez. What Major Leaguers did Anaheim give up for Zack Greinke?

Yeah, it sucks that you're giving a $100 bill for $20 worth of scratch off lottery tickets. But, it's the nature of the beast. And that ain't changing anytime soon.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
User avatar
skatingtripods
Sloth Duncan
 
Posts: 14346
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 12:27 pm
Location: Cleveland
Favorite Player: Mike Aviles
Least Favorite Player: Every Detroit Tiger

Re: Jason Knapp Released

Unread postby andrew6586 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:27 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
andrew6586 wrote:Philly wouldn't have given is anyone which is why I wouldn't have made a deal with Philly. I would have gone elsewhere.


Nobody would have given anything of Major League value.

Teams at the trade deadline are BUYING. Which means they're trying to improve their ML club. They're not going to trade off parts of their ML team. They're going to trade prospects. Been standard operating procedure forever with deals like this.

Remind me what Major Leaguers the Nats gave up for Gio Gonzalez. What Major Leaguers did Anaheim give up for Zack Greinke?

Yeah, it sucks that you're giving a $100 bill for $20 worth of scratch off lottery tickets. But, it's the nature of the beast. And that ain't changing anytime soon.

Of course we always could have just not traded him until the offseason when someone might have given us some major league value for him. I think that may be the most frustrating thing about the trade. We had another year left to get a better deal. And please don't start with the "his stock would have never gotten higher argument.". He was lights out the rest of that season.
Can we trade Hafner and Sizemore for a young owner prospect who will spend money?
Once a fan, always a fan.
On Twitter @apac6586
User avatar
andrew6586
Church of Asdrubal
 
Posts: 1222
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:04 pm
Location: Canton, Ohio
Favorite Player: Kenny Lofton
Least Favorite Player: Mark Shapiro


Return to Cleveland Indians & MLB

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Prosecutor and 3 guests

Who is online

In total there are 4 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 3 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: Prosecutor and 3 guests