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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby pup » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:59 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:What lesson are we to learn from Willingham? He is an injury risk player who is 3/4 of the way into a 3 year deal.

We cant judge that deal until he plays out the entire thing.


Bullshit.

If "that deal" won us a division title this year and a decent playoff run, you think (reasonable) people would bitch if he struggled in year 3?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:05 am

pup wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:What lesson are we to learn from Willingham? He is an injury risk player who is 3/4 of the way into a 3 year deal.

We cant judge that deal until he plays out the entire thing.


Bullshit.

If "that deal" won us a division title this year and a decent playoff run, you think (reasonable) people would bitch if he struggled in year 3?


Completely agree. Especially with money coming off the books next year. You could sorta argue at the time, but after seeing what both Willingham and the Indians did this season, you HAVE to say that was a mistake not offering him a 3rd year.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby StewieG » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:23 am

This team is so risk-averse because one screw up seriously hampers their ability to make moves. And this roster is full of mistakes. Hafner, Ubaldo, Lowe, Sizemore, and Damon are all significant detriments to the team, either through money or performance (or both). The large markets can hide those kinds of mistakes, but we can't. That's...what, just under half the payroll tied up in failures. That this team is even near .500 this late in the season is a testament to how freaking good the back end of the bullpen has been.

There's plenty of blame to throw around. You can start with Dolan, and he can go fuck himself with a bag of jacks. Sell, you miserable fuck. Shapiro and Antinetti deserve blame too, because most of their moves the last few years have been just terrible. They can be fired, and they can take their supercomputers with them. But it must be said that the deck is stacked against them. Even if Dolan were willing to spend, there's no possible way to compete with the big markets. At best, we'd have half the payroll they have. While it's true that payroll does not equal success, it does make success easier and more sustainable. The only hope 2/3 of the teams have for contending is to have a bunch of really good young players come up within a year or two of each other, grow for a few years, then get 1, or maybe 2 years of contending before watching most of the star players from those teams move on because the team can't afford to tie up so much payroll in a single player.

It's a combination of everything i listed that makes me apathetic about this team and baseball in general. I love the sport. I hate what MLB has made it into. If the Indians were to move tomorrow, I doubt I'd care. I'd probably get nostalgic in a few years and wonder, well, What if? But I'm so apathetic about this team I haven't watched a single game from start to finish, and only tuned in to parts of a handful. I just can't make myself care.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:52 am

jb wrote:War: Neil Huntington.


War being three games behind in the MAC of MLB?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:50 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
pup wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:What lesson are we to learn from Willingham? He is an injury risk player who is 3/4 of the way into a 3 year deal.

We cant judge that deal until he plays out the entire thing.


Bullshit.

If "that deal" won us a division title this year and a decent playoff run, you think (reasonable) people would bitch if he struggled in year 3?


Completely agree. Especially with money coming off the books next year. You could sorta argue at the time, but after seeing what both Willingham and the Indians did this season, you HAVE to say that was a mistake not offering him a 3rd year.


I disagree. If anything his contract IMO would be used as an excuse not to add to the team. I think my point also comes from the fact that I in know way believe adding Willingham would have made this team a contender.

The guy is a 33 yr old dead pull hitter(which helps to explain his up and down HR and Rbi totals over the years along with injury problems) and has stayed healthy. When all you try to do is hit homeruns you are bound to run into a few more some years than others. This year he has happened to run into a few more HR's while staying healthy. He doesnt walk, he strikes out a lot and he cant hit with runners in scoring position( he has been pretty bad over his career.

He just looks so much more appealing because of the giant gaping holes at 1b and LF.

Im not saying he wouldnt have helped, he would have but not enough IMO to make us a serious contender, let alone a world series contender. Nor would the help have been worth investing 3 years in him.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:58 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
jb wrote:War: Neil Huntington.


War being three games behind in the MAC of MLB?


You mean the division with the team with the best record in the league, followed by the wild card leader, and the defending World Champions?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:59 pm

When does the drum beat for a retire-as-an-Indian trade for Omar begin?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:17 pm

googleeph2 wrote:When does the drum beat for a retire-as-an-Indian trade for Omar begin?


And isn't Manny looking for a team still? Imagine the possibilities.

The sad thing is, that would draw crazy attendance numbers--probably the best of the season--at least for a series or two. Hell, I'd probably show up, too.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:26 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:
googleeph2 wrote:When does the drum beat for a retire-as-an-Indian trade for Omar begin?


And isn't Manny looking for a team still? Imagine the possibilities.

The sad thing is, that would draw crazy attendance numbers--probably the best of the season--at least for a series or two. Hell, I'd probably show up, too.


I'm sure there'd be a bunch of women in their mid 30's and their illegitimate children showing up for games anyway!
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:01 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
pup wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:What lesson are we to learn from Willingham? He is an injury risk player who is 3/4 of the way into a 3 year deal.

We cant judge that deal until he plays out the entire thing.


Bullshit.

If "that deal" won us a division title this year and a decent playoff run, you think (reasonable) people would bitch if he struggled in year 3?


Completely agree. Especially with money coming off the books next year. You could sorta argue at the time, but after seeing what both Willingham and the Indians did this season, you HAVE to say that was a mistake not offering him a 3rd year.


I disagree. If anything his contract IMO would be used as an excuse not to add to the team. I think my point also comes from the fact that I in know way believe adding Willingham would have made this team a contender.

The guy is a 33 yr old dead pull hitter(which helps to explain his up and down HR and Rbi totals over the years along with injury problems) and has stayed healthy. When all you try to do is hit homeruns you are bound to run into a few more some years than others. This year he has happened to run into a few more HR's while staying healthy. He doesnt walk, he strikes out a lot and he cant hit with runners in scoring position( he has been pretty bad over his career.

He just looks so much more appealing because of the giant gaping holes at 1b and LF.

Im not saying he wouldnt have helped, he would have but not enough IMO to make us a serious contender, let alone a world series contender. Nor would the help have been worth investing 3 years in him.


Nobody is saying Josh Willingham is the perfect player.

But Christ on a pony you've got ciphers, ABSOLUTE CIPHERS at the positions he can play. Yeah, dead pull hitter. Key word there is hitter.

And he'll drop off next year. Wanna wager he still outhits whomever the Tribe puts at either 1B or LF? Good chance he'll outhit both.

Again, going into the off-season with Hafner and Sizemore penciled in, and two jokers at the corners was a far bigger risk than giving the guy a third year - warts and all.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:08 pm

Prosecutor wrote:...They need to use that money to add a Josh Willingham type bat at 1st base or left field, and a legitimate starting pitcher. Go for quality, not quantity. One Willingham trumps a Kotchman, Damon, and Lowe. We have guys in Columbus who can match that production at a fraction of the cost.

Then they need Chisenhall and Carrasco to stay healthy and have breakout seasons like Kipnis is doing this year.

That adds four significant players. Not enough to compete with Detroit, but enough to move up to 85 wins and keep it interesting at least through the end of July when they'll have to trade Choo. That's about all a franchise like this can hope for, really.

Do you have a player machine that turns out the kind of players you want? Cuz I got news for you - they ain't on the market. That's part of the reason the Tribe didn't make a deal. But even more so, there just aren't as many players to pick from. I checked the Potential Free Agents for 2013 list over at Cots. These look like the options for 2013 - anybody you like?

* – player whose current contract includes 2013 option

First Basemen
Travis Hafner *
Aubrey Huff *
Adam LaRoche *
Carlos Lee
James Loney
Mike Napoli
Ty Wigginton *


I'm not going to check ages, current salary or stats cuz I don't have time to spin my wheels since Dolan et al won't get any of those guys. Well, except that first one... :thud:
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:38 pm

Yeah. Free agency sucks this year.


Their best shot to make a significant move for the team might be to trade Choo for prospects the Diamondbacks want and convince Upton to accept a trade. At least then we would have a RH OF under control at a pretty good price for a while.

I almost got through that without laughing.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby pup » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:56 am

I wonder if anyone takes the time to look at the fail that 2013 free agents are before they decide to pass on the 2012 list?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby rigs » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:09 am

Listening to Antonetti yesterday was sad. I really feel he thinks the Sizemore deal was a good risk at the time. I also gathered that Willingham for that third year is something the Dolans just can't do. Obviously, you just can't win then.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:55 am

rigs wrote:I also gathered that Willingham for that third year is something the Dolans just can't do. Obviously, you just can't win then.


A friend of mine was taking his son to some skating lessons over on the west side and it just so happened that Chris Antonetti was there doing the same thing. He recognized Antonetti and slid within earshot of the phone call that he was on. It was the day that Josh Willingham was signed by Minnesota. I don't recall what he told me word for word, but the gist of Antonetti's conversation was that the Indians weren't going to go a third year because they were worried about his defense and projected him to be a DH by the end of the deal.

I 100% trust what this buddy told me.

Guess they're a little jaded with how much they paid for their DH. Right or wrong, from the sound of it, they didn't think Willingham would be worth the cost, not that the Dolans weren't willing to add a third year. Unless, of course, Antonetti was just covering for his owner. No way of knowing who he was on the phone with, unfortunately.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:56 am

skatingtripods wrote:
rigs wrote:I also gathered that Willingham for that third year is something the Dolans just can't do. Obviously, you just can't win then.


A friend of mine was taking his son to some skating lessons over on the west side and it just so happened that Chris Antonetti was there doing the same thing. He recognized Antonetti and slid within earshot of the phone call that he was on. It was the day that Josh Willingham was signed by Minnesota. I don't recall what he told me word for word, but the gist of Antonetti's conversation was that the Indians weren't going to go a third year because they were worried about his defense and projected him to be a DH by the end of the deal.

I 100% trust what this buddy told me.

Guess they're a little jaded with how much they paid for their DH. Right or wrong, from the sound of it, they didn't think Willingham would be worth the cost, not that the Dolans weren't willing to add a third year. Unless, of course, Antonetti was just covering for his owner. No way of knowing who he was on the phone with, unfortunately.


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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:57 pm

pup wrote:I wonder if anyone takes the time to look at the fail that 2013 free agents are before they decide to pass on the 2012 list?

I was wondering why the list wasn't showing the current team. Besides, I was tired AND pissed at the team. So you didn't know where to look it up and past the right year? You just didn't care? Or you were itching to make a snide remark... Image Here ya go:

* – player whose current contract includes 2012 option

Player Club
First Basemen
Russell Branyan LAA
Jorge Cantu SD
Prince Fielder MIL
Brad Hawpe SD
Eric Hinske ATL *
Ross Gload PHI
Nick Johnson CLE
Derrek Lee BAL
Xavier Nady ARI
David Ortiz BOS
Lyle Overbay PIT
Carlos Pena CHC
Albert Pujols STL
Jim Thome MIN


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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:50 pm

I think what Pup was getting at... He was wondering if the Indians front office looked ahead to see the mountain of fail that is the 2013 FA class when they were deciding to sit out free agency in 2012. Not taking a dig at someone in the thread (for once).

That's how I read it anyway.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby pup » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:58 pm

Am I Here Again? wrote:
pup wrote:I wonder if anyone takes the time to look at the fail that 2013 free agents are before they decide to pass on the 2012 list?

I was wondering why the list wasn't showing the current team. Besides, I was tired AND pissed at the team. So you didn't know where to look it up and past the right year? You just didn't care? Or you were itching to make a snide remark... Image Here ya go:

* – player whose current contract includes 2012 option

Player Club
First Basemen
Russell Branyan LAA
Jorge Cantu SD
Prince Fielder MIL
Brad Hawpe SD
Eric Hinske ATL *
Ross Gload PHI
Nick Johnson CLE
Derrek Lee BAL
Xavier Nady ARI
David Ortiz BOS
Lyle Overbay PIT
Carlos Pena CHC
Albert Pujols STL
Jim Thome MIN


Happy now?


Wow. Tough morning for ya?

Thanks for interpreting dentist.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:06 pm

pup wrote:Wow. Tough morning for ya?

Thanks for interpreting dentist.

Tough season. Sorry. But I'm putting you ALL on warning right now: this team will incite me to jump down any of your throats and gallop your guts out if the tiniest little thing sets me off. Aren't you all glad I'm hundreds of miles away from Greater Cleveland?Image
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