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Potential Indians Trade Targets

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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:51 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:Take a fucking chance because the same old shit ain't getting it done. This is pup's point.


We took a chance.

It pitches erratically every five days.

Look, I'm fine with taking chances. To me, Hanley's not the one to take a chance on. Again, nobody has been able to give me any reason to believe that he'd come here and play like he cared. If he was manageable in the clubhouse when times were tough and wouldn't demand a trade the second things went south, sure, try to acquire Hanley in hopes that he gets back to his old self.

Why that would happen with a change of leagues, I don't know.

I'd much rather go after somebody who may be struggling, but is going to play hard regardless of where he's playing. Wanting to play and having the work ethic to play are two big factors when you're talking about a guy who had tons of previous success and has fallen off the map. I don't see him being that guy in Cleveland.

That's my point. Which pup can't seem to grasp.


I grasp your point just fine. Just think it is a losing mentality.

If nobody wants to play here, then the only way to acquire talent is trades. If he doesn't work out, what have you lost? Profit $?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby comish » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:32 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
They have nobody to play left field next year unless you're a big Duncan or Damon fan, or unless you think LaPorta is suddenly going to "get it". They have nobody at first base unless you're a Kotchman fan. They have nobody to DH unless you like Hafner's .229 with 27 RBI's in late July. And they'll have to trade Choo at some point or get nothing back when he walks.




Newsflash: They didn't have anybody for those positions this year and they pulled off their annual "scrape the bottom of the barrel" strategy to perfection. Next year will be more of the same. To expect anything more is pure delusion.


It's not my money, I don't give a shit. The front office said they'd spend when they're contending, well they were contending and haven't done anything. I'd rather spend $15 million per on the chance Hanley Ramirez regains his talent then the same amount of money on 3 Grady Sizemore's or 7 Johnny Damon/Casey Kotchman's.


If Ramirez doesn't work, guess what? They still suck but at least they tried.


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Haven't some of you that are defending the Indian's (lack of) Brain Trust ALSO slammed the Browns org? At least Holmgren and Co. identified problems and did something to address them (maybe they will miss), but at least the holes were addressed. These tards KNEW they had holes and instead of doing anything significant about it used band aids. If they didn't band aid it we got "The guys we already have will be better this year cuz Jesus told me so" approach.

Case and point.....not giving Willingham one more year to get him here in the off season

Spend when we contend, my ass

PATHETIC....they won't get one more dime from me until this philosophy changes.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:34 pm

Uhm, comparing reaching for a few draft picks (while sitting out Free Agency) to spending a third of the team's payroll on a guy that is beyond a huge gamble is about as intellectually disingenuous as it gets.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby comish » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:37 pm

I am not stuck on Hanley, bud, I'm pissed at the overall philosophy
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:42 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Uhm, comparing reaching for a few draft picks (while sitting out Free Agency) to spending a third of the team's payroll on a guy that is beyond a huge gamble is about as intellectually disingenuous as it gets.


Impressed you can type anything but move the team in this forum.

15 = 1/3(80)...maybe in Boston
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:16 pm

Probably just smoke and mirrors, but Jayson Stark says that the Indians have inquired about James Shields. Let's be honest, they probably just called, asked the price, and hung up. But, considering that probably happens a lot, Stark must be hearing something of value to post about it.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:18 pm

Odd, in that Tampa is every bit in contention as the Indians.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Bigfist wrote:Odd, in that Tampa is every bit in contention as the Indians.


It definitely sets off some red flags. For one thing, the Rays front office is one of the most progressive in baseball regarding statistics, sabermetrics, projections, etc. Leads me to believe that they think they know something about his future.

That being said, guy's getting really unlucky this year. His BABip is 35 points above his career average, his HR/FB% is nearly 4% above his career average. Seems like an odd time to sell on him, especially holding two very affordable club options (9M in '13, 12M in '14).

Wonder what the deal is on those club options if traded. I wonder if they're automatically picked up or just applied with his new team.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:35 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Probably just smoke and mirrors, but Jayson Stark says that the Indians have inquired about James Shields. Let's be honest, they probably just called, asked the price, and hung up. But, considering that probably happens a lot, Stark must be hearing something of value to post about it.


I guess Manny's response to the question "Do you need more pitching?" in last night's post game made it to the front office.

"We are 12th in pitching. Do you really need me to answer that for you? Just write it yourself, but yes we do."
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:46 pm

This is a team that last off-season had two Old Yellers penciled in, Hafner and Sizemore, and thought they were going to get away with Hanahan AND Kotchman at both corners.

And that has worked out how everyone with a pulse knew it would.

Now, if you're of the opinion that they go into next season counting on players that are either A. Humps or B. Injured, well, great.

But if you wanna have a CHANCE to win, picking up a guy like Hanley in a season where close to .500 might win you the division is a much better gamble.

Yea, I understand some regression, I understand the malcontent - that's why the guys available in the first place. I also understand that hoping that a guy with his talent plays well is a much better gamble than hoping the next Trevor Crowe lookin', never gonna make it in the league jag-off comes strollin' into LF and make a difference.

If you wanna WIN, Hanley is a feasible chance to take. If you wanna save all that $ coming off the books next year for free agents that won't come here, pretty bad free agents with little other options, or the long line of bad draft picks that are going to rifle through here, than by all means don't sign him.

You don't win with Jedi tricks in this league, you win with PLAYAS. And this is the whole point - to sit back and assume Shappy, or some other GM is going to somehow "outwit" everyone else in the league, and build some low financed juggernaut based on their superior moves is silly - and that's whether you're a Shappy fan or not.

Look at that f'ing roster ferchristsake. Show me the PLAYAS. Cause that's what you're gonna win and lose with.

If Ramirez got HALF back of what he lost he's the best player here. Ask any pitcher if he'd rather throw a big September at bat to a "deteriorating" Hanley, or a "perennial stiff" like Jack Hanahan.

And I'm not stuck on Hanley in particular, it's just enough with Andy Marte comparisons, and submarining the guy and acting like he's some sort of stiff that the Tribe has multiple guys better than him

Christ.

Glass houses and all.

And tell me again how if it doesn't work out we're that much worse with that money on the books than we are with the cripples? To me, it's a gamble if it can hurt you badly when you lose. This chance, if it woulda worked out would CLEARLY boost their chances to win the division this year. And if it bombed, well, they'd lose, just like they'll lose this year without him, and would be in no worse position next year.

And those who think they could save that money to help re-sign Choo hasn't been awake the last 20 years.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:07 pm

Bring the NHL to C-Town.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:13 pm



Think they will take back Laporta? I would be crushed, but I would consider throwing Duncan in as well.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:17 pm

Bigfist wrote:


Think they will take back Laporta? I would be crushed, but I would consider throwing Duncan in as well.


I'd even throw in Zack Jackson, is that the former pitcher or is that the Browns reporter guy, I get them confused.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:02 pm

leadpipe wrote:This is a team that last off-season had two Old Yellers penciled in, Hafner and Sizemore, and thought they were going to get away with Hanahan AND Kotchman at both corners.

And that has worked out how everyone with a pulse knew it would.

Now, if you're of the opinion that they go into next season counting on players that are either A. Humps or B. Injured, well, great.

But if you wanna have a CHANCE to win, picking up a guy like Hanley in a season where close to .500 might win you the division is a much better gamble.

Yea, I understand some regression, I understand the malcontent - that's why the guys available in the first place. I also understand that hoping that a guy with his talent plays well is a much better gamble than hoping the next Trevor Crowe lookin', never gonna make it in the league jag-off comes strollin' into LF and make a difference.

If you wanna WIN, Hanley is a feasible chance to take. If you wanna save all that $ coming off the books next year for free agents that won't come here, pretty bad free agents with little other options, or the long line of bad draft picks that are going to rifle through here, than by all means don't sign him.

You don't win with Jedi tricks in this league, you win with PLAYAS. And this is the whole point - to sit back and assume Shappy, or some other GM is going to somehow "outwit" everyone else in the league, and build some low financed juggernaut based on their superior moves is silly - and that's whether you're a Shappy fan or not.

Look at that f'ing roster ferchristsake. Show me the PLAYAS. Cause that's what you're gonna win and lose with.

If Ramirez got HALF back of what he lost he's the best player here. Ask any pitcher if he'd rather throw a big September at bat to a "deteriorating" Hanley, or a "perennial stiff" like Jack Hanahan.

And I'm not stuck on Hanley in particular, it's just enough with Andy Marte comparisons, and submarining the guy and acting like he's some sort of stiff that the Tribe has multiple guys better than him

Christ.

Glass houses and all.

And tell me again how if it doesn't work out we're that much worse with that money on the books than we are with the cripples? To me, it's a gamble if it can hurt you badly when you lose. This chance, if it woulda worked out would CLEARLY boost their chances to win the division this year. And if it bombed, well, they'd lose, just like they'll lose this year without him, and would be in no worse position next year.

And those who think they could save that money to help re-sign Choo hasn't been awake the last 20 years.


Per usual, Lead Man takes a belt high heat and makes better contact than 3/4 of the humps we trot out at corner positions.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:49 pm

Tribe not getting Hanley:

Right decision if they didn't want Hanley, but take a gamble and actually go and get somebody else of of consequence/significance(whatever superlative you want to use) or PLAYA, either now or they save that money to bring in somebody(s) in a significant off-season move(s). Or the cost to acquire him was prohibitive.




Wrong Decision If they do nothing and try to rely on band-aids and have a repeat of last off-season and the cost to acquire Hanley was not prohibitive.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:39 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Tribe not getting Hanley:

Right decision if they didn't want Hanley, but take a gamble and actually go and get somebody else of of consequence/significance(whatever superlative you want to use) or PLAYA, either now or they save that money to bring in somebody(s) in a significant off-season move(s). Or the cost to acquire him was prohibitive.




Wrong Decision If they do nothing and try to rely on band-aids and have a repeat of last off-season and the cost to acquire Hanley was not prohibitive.


This take is only accurate if you can truly get players of consequence in free agency. Again, if that money goes to free agents it will be the kind of guys that have few other options - that's how you got a guy like Casey Kotchman playing first for you.

Which is to the point - you ain't getting a big time player through free agency. You have a CHANCE to get one in the fashion Hanly became available. And waiting for them to come out of the minors is a long wait for this organization.

Not sure what gives ANYONE the illusion a Carlos Beltran type or better is gonna even consider signing here.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:26 am

If we're going to go after a Ramirez, I'd much rather it be Aramis than Hanley. Aramis is a safer gamble, is owed a few million less, and will probably give you a more consistent effort.

Plus, some of his 2014 salary is deferred. I don't know the specifics, but for an extremely cost-conscious organization, that may be something they're interested in.

I don't know what he'd cost in terms of prospects, but I know he's a safer play than Hanley. Not nearly as much upside, but lower risk.

Not sure if the Brewers are totally sold on moving him, but if they are, I think we'd be in play.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Bigfist » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:47 am

skatingtripods wrote:If we're going to go after a Ramirez, I'd much rather it be Aramis than Hanley. Aramis is a safer gamble, is owed a few million less, and will probably give you a more consistent effort.

Plus, some of his 2014 salary is deferred. I don't know the specifics, but for an extremely cost-conscious organization, that may be something they're interested in.

I don't know what he'd cost in terms of prospects, but I know he's a safer play than Hanley. Not nearly as much upside, but lower risk.

Not sure if the Brewers are totally sold on moving him, but if they are, I think we'd be in play.


I hadn't heard his name mentioned in any rumors, but he certainly would be a very solid pick up. He is right at his career numbers, that while not spectacular, would be a markd improvement over Hannahan or Lopez. Just wonder what it would take to get him? I still am not sold that we really have anything of value in our AAA or AA teams.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:30 pm

leadpipe wrote:
This take is only accurate if you can truly get players of consequence in free agency. .



And they can if they actually want to make competitive offers. Sorry I'm not buying your doom and gloom everybody hates Cleveland, nobody wants to play here attitude.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:35 pm

My initial reaction to the prospect of Ramirez was that the Indians shouldn't waste time and money on that jackoff. Too expensive. Too much of a heqd case for how much he is making going forward.

Pup and then LP have convinced me otherwise.

The cost in prospects (apparently not much) and the possibility of moving him after this season or next (or just keeping him if he's playing well) makes it a risk worth taking in a year where you won't need 95 wins to take this thing. We might not be sold on this team, but the window is there. Right now. You have to try to wiggle through it if you can. Because we know it's more scrap heap shit this offseason like it always is.

If not, I'm with Pup, you have to turn what assets you have and try to restock for another run. What we know is that the current iteration of this baseball team will not be getting it done.

They either need to whip that hog out and wave it around or go stand back in the corner again.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:39 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
This take is only accurate if you can truly get players of consequence in free agency. .



And they can if they actually want to make competitive offers. Sorry I'm not buying your doom and gloom everybody hates Cleveland, nobody wants to play here attitude.


Maybe change "can" to "will".

Can the Indians get players of consequence in free agency? Of Cree they can. With enough money and enou years offered they can get players just like anyone else. Now "will" they? Yu tell me. Who's the last FA signing that actually excited the fan base? Who is the last big ticket FA designed to put them over the top? Jack McDowell?

Sure they can get FAs. I'm also pretty sure they won't.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:52 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
This take is only accurate if you can truly get players of consequence in free agency. .



And they can if they actually want to make competitive offers. Sorry I'm not buying your doom and gloom everybody hates Cleveland, nobody wants to play here attitude.


Maybe change "can" to "will".

Can the Indians get players of consequence in free agency? Of Cree they can. With enough money and enou years offered they can get players just like anyone else. Now "will" they? Yu tell me. Who's the last FA signing that actually excited the fan base? Who is the last big ticket FA designed to put them over the top? Jack McDowell?

Sure they can get FAs. I'm also pretty sure they won't.


Kerry Wood. Didn't really work out. Also, they offered both Beltran and Pena more $$ to come here, neither did. So yeah, they do make competitive offers to people.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:57 pm

Yeah, wood didnt work out.

But offering competitive offers to Beltran and Pena...isn't that more reason to try to add a guy with Hanley's potential when you can and the cost is so low?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:06 pm

Ellis Burks, Robbie Alomar, Juan Gonzalez, Kevin Millwood, I remember both Tony Gywnn and Trveor Hoffman saying Cleveland made it a really difficult decision when they chose to go back to San Diego.


Im not saying every player wants to play everywhere, Heck I would have chose Tampa and St louis too, on paper their teams were better. I'm also sure there were other reasons that didnt involve them thinking Cleveland was a cesspool that were way more important in their thinking.


But yes its not can they, its will they. This is/should be the first real off-season where they should have legit money that they can spend with the contracts coming off the books, so we will see.

I mean the last time that happened they did commit a boatload of money to Hafner and Westbrook who were Carlos beltran type players. So who knows.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:10 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Yeah, wood didnt work out.

But offering competitive offers to Beltran and Pena...isn't that more reason to try to add a guy with Hanley's potential when you can and the cost is so low?



The real question is what Florida wanted. Maybe Cleveland would have done it, but they asked for somebdoy we didnt deem worth it. The Marlins might have valued Evoldi in the same light as Lindor. So to us it just seems like they gave him away. We dont and will never know......at least until Pluto writes DEALING part 2.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:14 pm

Ok, now I'd like you to not have to go back 15 years and 5 rebuilds to get to Elise burks and Robby Alomar. And a 1 year deal for a coming off injury Kevin millwood doesn't count as a free agent signing designed to put a team on the edge over the top. Hell, Wood barely qualifies for what were talking about here.

I wasn't looking for someone to rattle off a few decade old free agent signings. I have baseball reference too.

And it's really nice that Tony Gwynn once said he thought about playing for Cleveland. I guess we havent done too bad in free agency for the last 10 years after all.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:19 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Yeah, wood didnt work out.

But offering competitive offers to Beltran and Pena...isn't that more reason to try to add a guy with Hanley's potential when you can and the cost is so low?


I understand the arguments for adding Hanley. I think the cost in terms of prospects would have been reasonable. I disagree that he would be worth the monetary investment long-term. If this were the last year of his contract, I'd be screaming on the rooftops for them to have given him a shot.

If there's one thing we know, it is that ownership has the front office operating under a finite budget. Argue all you want about how much Dolan makes or if he's re-investing enough in the team, but the reality of the situation is that the team only has X number of dollars to spend. I wouldn't want to earmark that much of the resources available to a player his age, attidude and current skill set.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:30 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Yeah, wood didnt work out.

But offering competitive offers to Beltran and Pena...isn't that more reason to try to add a guy with Hanley's potential when you can and the cost is so low?


I understand the arguments for adding Hanley. I think the cost in terms of prospects would have been reasonable. I disagree that he would be worth the monetary investment long-term. If this were the last year of his contract, I'd be screaming on the rooftops for them to have given him a shot.

If there's one thing we know, it is that ownership has the front office operating under a finite budget. Argue all you want about how much Dolan makes or if he's re-investing enough in the team, but the reality of the situation is that the team only has X number of dollars to spend. I wouldn't want to earmark that much of the resources available to a player his age, attidude and current skill set.



I agree. And rational me understands that you can't commit that money to the guy for 2.5 more years. If he sucks it's an albatross.

I guess I just get tired of never ever taking a shot. Ever. If you never risk anything what's the point?

After a while it seems like we try to fill every hole with Casey Kotchman. Whats the point?

Frustrated.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:36 pm

They've had this What If campaign for a few years now. Well,, what if they'd sighed Prince Fielder and Josh Willingham this offseason. What if they were in first place because of it RIGHT NOW. and what if they traded for Hanley Ramirez and somehow came up with the cost to land Josh Johnson as well.

And what if Ramirez turned it around and ignited this offense.

What if they did that and then won the World Series THIS FUCKING YEAR!

Instead we have Kotchman and Lillibridge.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:39 pm

^^^This salt air is messing with my head.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:43 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Yeah, wood didnt work out.

But offering competitive offers to Beltran and Pena...isn't that more reason to try to add a guy with Hanley's potential when you can and the cost is so low?


I understand the arguments for adding Hanley. I think the cost in terms of prospects would have been reasonable. I disagree that he would be worth the monetary investment long-term. If this were the last year of his contract, I'd be screaming on the rooftops for them to have given him a shot.

If there's one thing we know, it is that ownership has the front office operating under a finite budget. Argue all you want about how much Dolan makes or if he's re-investing enough in the team, but the reality of the situation is that the team only has X number of dollars to spend. I wouldn't want to earmark that much of the resources available to a player his age, attidude and current skill set.



I agree. And rational me understands that you can't commit that money to the guy for 2.5 more years. If he sucks it's an albatross.

I guess I just get tired of never ever taking a shot. Ever. If you never risk anything what's the point?

After a while it seems like we try to fill every hole with Casey Kotchman. Whats the point?

Frustrated.


I'm frustrated too. Sometimes those "misses" work out for the best though; would you rather be paying Casey Kotchman (.654 OPS) $3 million or Carlos Pena (.677 OPS) $8 million? Of course, I'd rather be paying Joey Votto $20 million, but that's not an option.

I think (hope) they are keeping their powder dry for a risk that makes more sense. If that's not the case and they end up cutting payroll next year without making a legit attempt to add a bat, then I will stand corrected and be yelling right there with Pup and LP. All FA deals are inherently risky, and I just think the risk outweighs the reward in the Hanley instance.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:47 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Ellis Burks, Robbie Alomar, Juan Gonzalez, Kevin Millwood, I remember both Tony Gywnn and Trveor Hoffman saying Cleveland made it a really difficult decision when they chose to go back to San Diego.


Im not saying every player wants to play everywhere, Heck I would have chose Tampa and St louis too, on paper their teams were better. I'm also sure there were other reasons that didnt involve them thinking Cleveland was a cesspool that were way more important in their thinking.


But yes its not can they, its will they. This is/should be the first real off-season where they should have legit money that they can spend with the contracts coming off the books, so we will see.

I mean the last time that happened they did commit a boatload of money to Hafner and Westbrook who were Carlos beltran type players. So who knows.


Anyone this decade? Or anyone who wasn't coming off major surgery and landed in Cleveland when the Indians decided the only way to get guys here was paying them to rehab for a year first?

Anyone who didn't say , "No thanks" after using them as leverage to get more where they ended up?

This ain't '94-'01.

It's just not.

You want players here you need to draft and develop them or trade for the ones who can't say 'no'. Regardless of how big a fan of the city and team you are this isn't a destination choice for the elite players in the game (at their peak) anymore than the Cavs have been one for elite NBA free agents.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:56 pm

Forget about any high profile free agents. If they couldn't sign that Thome guy they'll never sign anybody. Just too many teams with bigger budgets.

They should use the money freed up from the expiring contracts of Hafner, Grady, and Lowe to do the same thing they did this April - extend their young core. In April they extended Asdrubal and Santana. This winter it should be Kipnis, Chiz, Brantley, Masterson, McAlister and Pestano. Lock 'em all up until 2015 or later.

Then can I get just one or two more deals along the lines of DeRosa for Chris Perez, Austin Kearns for Zach McAlister, and Franklin Gutierrez for Joe Smith?

Next year we trade Choo and Rage for two blue chip prospects. Another Masterson and Brantley will do just fine.

Finally, there are a number of high upside prospects in the low minors. That wave should start arriving in 2014, and a few even sooner, like Carrasco and Cody Allen.

That's when the REAL window will hit if all goes according to plan. I've waited a long time but I'll wait 2-3 more years to get it right.

This year? Sure, there's a chance, especially with 25 of the remaining 63 games against the Twins, Royals and Mariners. Those teams are done and they're be auditioning prospects. The Tribe could make a killing and stay in the hunt into September, which would be good for attendence and maintain my interest. But any team that has guys named Damon, Hannahan, and Kotchman in the starting lineup and has Lowe and Tomlin taking up 40% of the rotation is not going anywhere in the postseason. We all realize that, right?
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby gotribe31 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:56 pm

Good article from Passan on the Han-Ram acquisition:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/hanley-ram ... orate.html
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:22 pm

peeker643 wrote:
This ain't '94-'01.




No its not but Cleveland for the wealthy is still the same. Its the same giant ass sprawling houses on the outskirts of all the mess on the inside. Same rich ass country clubs, vacation homes a few hours away. Just as they are everywhere else.

Difference is winning. If they win, players will come if they offer money or even close to. That is what 94-01 shows. Players will come here.

Certain players will never come, Like some young single players, and that's fine. But if they won or offered the same money as the other teams they would get players.


Only in certain situations is location really a problem. Most intelligent players know basically every city is basically the same, again unless you are a young single dude.

Remember Fielder picked Detroit.....Detroit. I almost got shot just typing the city name.

Peyton manning picked Denver......over Miami....Miami. Part of that was he owns a home in Miami and can get there anytime he wants, doesn't have to live there full time. Fact is if he wants to go, he is rich enough to fly there for 6 hours and fly back in the same day on a private plan.

Rich people have different means which can make location of the city irrelevant.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:37 pm

Prosecutor wrote:F

They should use the money freed up from the expiring contracts of Hafner, Grady, and Lowe to do the same thing they did this April - extend their young core. In April they extended Asdrubal and Santana. This winter it should be Kipnis, Chiz, Brantley, Masterson, McAlister and Pestano. Lock 'em all up until 2015 or later.

Then can I get just one or two more deals along the lines of DeRosa for Chris Perez, Austin Kearns for Zach McAlister, and Franklin Gutierrez for Joe Smith?

Next year we trade Choo and Rage for two blue chip prospects. Another Masterson and Brantley will do just fine.

Finally, there are a number of high upside prospects in the low minors. That wave should start arriving in 2014, and a few even sooner, like Carrasco and Cody Allen.

That's when the REAL window will hit if all goes according to plan. I've waited a long time but I'll wait 2-3 more years to get it right.

This year? Sure, there's a chance, especially with 25 of the remaining 63 games against the Twins, Royals and Mariners. Those teams are done and they're be auditioning prospects. The Tribe could make a killing and stay in the hunt into September, which would be good for attendence and maintain my interest. But any team that has guys named Damon, Hannahan, and Kotchman in the starting lineup and has Lowe and Tomlin taking up 40% of the rotation is not going anywhere in the postseason. We all realize that, right?



I agree.



The problem is this core even if locked up needs more because its not good enough now. And the internal reinforcements that are coming are not right handed hitting power hitters.

They would have to target those guys in trades of Choo and Rage ,and when you make a deal you feel you need rather than the one that has the best value available in terms of prospects, you make mistakes. So it scares me when a team narrows its focus in trades involving types of prospects.

But yes the smart thing to do would be to lock up your core, wait for your next wave, clear your books of the bad contracts and dont add more, and save money in that frame so you can make significant additions when you are 2 pieces away from a title not a division.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:43 pm

peeker643 wrote: Regardless of how big a fan of the city and team you are this isn't a destination choice for the elite players in the game (at their peak) anymore than the Cavs have been one for elite NBA free agents.



Completely different circumstances
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:14 pm

Indians one of four teams left in the market for Chase Headley. Just saw this tweet from Gammons:

Chase Headley last two years away from Petco:.305 ave., .871 OPS. Only 3B this year with a higher OPS in 2012 are Wright, Cabrera, Freese

Have to imagine the asking price is pretty sky high right now.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:34 pm

There’s an expectation that Chase Headley will be traded, but the Padres continue saying they’re happy to keep him, Stark writes. One team says the Padres are looking for a Mat Latos-like return if they trade the third baseman.





http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/san_diego_padres/index.html
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:40 pm

The return for Latos was Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, and Boxberger.

I can't even begin to compare that to what the Indians have. Grandal was #53 in BA's preseason list. Alonso was #33. Boxberger's somewhere between Hagadone and Barnes.

That's a really steep asking price.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:47 pm

Yeah, Good for them if they get, I mean it only takes one team to really want him to get desperate. But Cleveland shouldnt pay that price even if they had the pieces.

Good player. Maybe the price comes down but even if it did doubt they have the bullets if the Latos deal was the starting asking price.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:17 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
This take is only accurate if you can truly get players of consequence in free agency. .



And they can if they actually want to make competitive offers. Sorry I'm not buying your doom and gloom everybody hates Cleveland, nobody wants to play here attitude.


I don't deal in doom and gloom, I deal in reality.

The reality is big time free agents don't sign here - save the mid-nineties, and we've been over ad nauseum what stars had to align for that to happen.

The other reality is you'd have a better chance if you were a winner, as you mention. But again, you ain't winning adding Casey Kotchman and Fukodome to an already lackluster squad with no big minor league prospects on the horizon.

So, I'd say again, getting players of consequence to Cleveland through free agency just does not happen (as Peeker has accuately summarized your decade old list). Is this statement doom and gloom, or is it T-R-U-E.

I want them to win more than anyone. Could give a shit about any other team. Just tired of the piss and rain story.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:24 pm

Looks like the Angels are getting Greinke for SS Jean Segura and two AA pitchers.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:12 pm

Good Haul, for a 1/2 season of Grienke. Get 3 of their top 10 prospects.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:47 am

The problem is this core even if locked up needs more because its not good enough now. And the internal reinforcements that are coming are not right handed hitting power hitters.

They would have to target those guys in trades of Choo and Rage ,and when you make a deal you feel you need rather than the one that has the best value available in terms of prospects, you make mistakes. So it scares me when a team narrows its focus in trades involving types of prospects.


Yeah, the failure of Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta to develop into productive major league power hitters really set this team back. Although to be fair, those guys did look like the best prospects the Indians could get for Crisp and Sabathia at the time the deals were made.

So I would get the best prospects I could for Choo and Rage, without targeting specific skill sets, like right-handed power. If you end up with two Jason Kipnis's you can always trade one for the right-handed left fielder you need.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:46 pm

Reportedly the Pirates have asked about Choo and the Indians have asked back about Marte.

Personally, while I wouldn't likely ask for Cole, I do wonder if Taillon would be on the table. Keep filling my plate with quality pitching prospects and I'll get what I need with that.

Is Frazier an untouchable in Cin? Wouldn't suck to have Choo there while Votto recovers and after that too. They have a number of viable prospects though the positions they play don't mesh well with Tribe needs.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:52 pm

At this point, you either go for it and add pieces to help this year who'll also be here next year or you tear it down completely.

Personally, I'm probably in favour of the latter. If you're tearing it down, you deal Choo, Perez, Marson, Hafner, Cabrera and even Masterson.

You should be able to get a boatload for Masterson, Cabrera, Choo and Perez - especially as many arms as possible!

If rumors are true that teams like the Rangers and Pirates have interest in Choo and Masterson, then these teams have deep prospect resources..... you try and take advantage of a bit of last minute desperation.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:14 pm

peeker643 wrote:Reportedly the Pirates have asked about Choo and the Indians have asked back about Marte.

Personally, while I wouldn't likely ask for Cole, I do wonder if Taillon would be on the table. Keep filling my plate with quality pitching prospects and I'll get what I need with that.

Is Frazier an untouchable in Cin? Wouldn't suck to have Choo there while Votto recovers and after that too. They have a number of viable prospects though the positions they play don't mesh well with Tribe needs.



I doubt Taillon is on the table, only because they were refusing to include him other deals for better more controllable players. Hope Im wrong. I would trade Choo in a heartbeat to get a chance at a talent like Taillon.



Texas seems interested too.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:16 pm

How long do we have Masterson for? If only this yr. or next, then trade him. If longer, keep him.
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Re: Potential Indians Trade Targets

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:18 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Yeah, the failure of Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta to develop into productive major league power hitters really set this team back. Although to be fair, those guys did look like the best prospects the Indians could get for Crisp and Sabathia at the time the deals were made.

So I would get the best prospects I could for Choo and Rage, without targeting specific skill sets, like right-handed power. If you end up with two Jason Kipnis's you can always trade one for the right-handed left fielder you need.


Oh Im not harping on those deals, its just the way the team is set right now. They need right handed power hitters, and if they decide to trade Choo and narrow their focus to only teams that could provide that, there could be problems.
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