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Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

NBA Draft thread

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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:24 am

Prosecutor wrote:
YahooFanChicago wrote:Pros,

That Windy article goes a good long way in shutting people like me up but it still doesn't answer the issue about the Cavs FO never speaking to the kid before they drafted him.

Hopefully Waiters does great and then none of this matters nearly as much.


Yeah, that is extremely odd. Sometimes NFL teams draft players they don't bring in for workouts because they want the rest of the league to think they're not interested so nobody trades up and steals him. The Browns have done that.

Besides, a prospect can be coached by his agent to say all the right things in an interview. The way you really find out about a guy is to talk to his coaches. Did they have to pay off some cops to unarrest him after he was involved in a drunken bar fight? Did his teammates hate his guts? Are there rumors he's selling drugs like Jeremiah Pharms? Did he show up hungover for morning practices on a regular basis?

None of that critical information would ever come out in an interview. It would be all, "Yes, sir, No sir, just want to help the team any way I can, sir."

I'd still like one of the beat writers to ask Grant why they never interviewed him, though. It's a fair question.


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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:25 am

jb wrote:
StewieG wrote:
YahooFanChicago wrote:CDT, what about pasty white centers from N.Carolina?

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.


Heh. When I think "great basketball mind", Skip Bayless is the first one I think of. Followed closely by Screamin' A.

Zeller ain't gonna be great. He'll never be under consideration for an all-star team. But he'll be serviceable. Limited, but solid. The Cavs could have done a lot worse with that one.



Downside = Nick Collison

Upside = 16 - 8 solid starter

I don't see any Srweart Gray in this kid.


Collison is one of the best and most active front court defenders in the league, he is no one's downside.

If Presti and Brooks weren't in love with Perk he would start (as he should).
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:33 am

e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
StewieG wrote:
YahooFanChicago wrote:CDT, what about pasty white centers from N.Carolina?

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.


Heh. When I think "great basketball mind", Skip Bayless is the first one I think of. Followed closely by Screamin' A.

Zeller ain't gonna be great. He'll never be under consideration for an all-star team. But he'll be serviceable. Limited, but solid. The Cavs could have done a lot worse with that one.



Downside = Nick Collison

Upside = 16 - 8 solid starter

I don't see any Srweart Gray in this kid.


Collison is one of the best and most active front court defenders in the league, he is no one's downside.

If Presti and Brooks weren't in love with Perk he would start (as he should).


I'd take Collision as downside. That'd be a top-10 caliber pick in that regard. And yeah, there are a shitload of other near 7-0 white guys who woulda made a far better down side example. Like Omer Asik or Louis Amundson or some other schlep like that.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:35 am

peeker643 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
StewieG wrote:
YahooFanChicago wrote:CDT, what about pasty white centers from N.Carolina?

Anyone see ESPN earlier today when Bayless was ripping on Portland for taking Leonard from Illinois since "white American centers drafted in the first round never find success". He then went on to say that some foreign white centers are ok but most tall white kids in the US switch over to baseball or football or skateboarding after the 6th or 7th grade. He asked Stephen A Smith what he thought about it and lucky for him he dodged it by just saying he doesn't know about all that or see too many 7 foot white kids on skateboards.


Heh. When I think "great basketball mind", Skip Bayless is the first one I think of. Followed closely by Screamin' A.

Zeller ain't gonna be great. He'll never be under consideration for an all-star team. But he'll be serviceable. Limited, but solid. The Cavs could have done a lot worse with that one.



Downside = Nick Collison

Upside = 16 - 8 solid starter

I don't see any Srweart Gray in this kid.


Collison is one of the best and most active front court defenders in the league, he is no one's downside.

If Presti and Brooks weren't in love with Perk he would start (as he should).


Louis Amundson


This is the downside.

Kind of annoyed bald one grabbed that name instead of me.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:00 am

The only truth is time will tell. And I believe that 3 years hence we will easily be able to point to players we now -- not in 20/20 hindsight -- identify taken after Waiters that have much better careers. There's always a shot he's Westbook as the PR wants you to believe and you apparently do, but I doubt you're betting the house on that.


jb, I have no idea how good Waiters will be and I'm not betting anything. Will some of the 56 players drafted after him have better careers? The chances are exceptionally good. I'll bet if you looked at every player drafted #4 in the last 30 years you would find very, very few that had a better career than every single player drafted after him. You could say the same thing about players drafted #1.

Funny you mentioned Westbrook. Jim Boeheim said Westbrook is the only NBA 2-guard who can stop Waiters one-on-one. So, I guess we know Waiters will suck for at least two games each year.

Waiters may end up being the next Smush Parker. But I've heard what Boeheim and Byron Scott have said about him, and I respect their expertise, so I like the pick. Scott described this kid as a "pit bull". They wanted somebody who could create his own shot and take the pressure off Kyrie of having to either score or get a teammate a good shot every time down. They realize what they have in Kyrie and they're looking to protect him. I suspect one reason LeBron left is he got tired of having to do it all himself.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:06 am

Westbrook isn't a two guard.

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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:07 am

(Oh and Westbrook isn't a great 1 on 1 defender yet)
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:50 am

e0y2e3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:On the way to work this AM I was listening to Simmons podcast (I know. I've mostly sworn that asshat off, but I knew there would be draft talk involving the Cavs so...).

Chad Ford was on and they touched on last draft's debacle. Ford said that the Cavs loved JVala, but his agent didn't want him in Cleveland so he wouldn't give them an answer on when he would be able to cross the pond. Everyone knew last season was out, but they didn't know if it would be even longer so the Cavs decided he couldn't chance it.

AFAIC it was still an epic fuckup. Even if he wasn't coming this season. You have to draft that guy. He's more valuable in Europe than TT is in the NBA. Even if he's not on your team...what an asset to have. Ford insisted he'd have been #2 this draft.

Irving, Vala, and Robinson. Fuck me.


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You're going to have to elaborate on that, dude.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:55 am

motherscratcher wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:On the way to work this AM I was listening to Simmons podcast (I know. I've mostly sworn that asshat off, but I knew there would be draft talk involving the Cavs so...).

Chad Ford was on and they touched on last draft's debacle. Ford said that the Cavs loved JVala, but his agent didn't want him in Cleveland so he wouldn't give them an answer on when he would be able to cross the pond. Everyone knew last season was out, but they didn't know if it would be even longer so the Cavs decided he couldn't chance it.

AFAIC it was still an epic fuckup. Even if he wasn't coming this season. You have to draft that guy. He's more valuable in Europe than TT is in the NBA. Even if he's not on your team...what an asset to have. Ford insisted he'd have been #2 this draft.

Irving, Vala, and Robinson. Fuck me.


Penis, penis, penis


You're going to have to elaborate on that, dude.


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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:01 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
The only truth is time will tell. And I believe that 3 years hence we will easily be able to point to players we now -- not in 20/20 hindsight -- identify taken after Waiters that have much better careers. There's always a shot he's Westbook as the PR wants you to believe and you apparently do, but I doubt you're betting the house on that.


jb, I have no idea how good Waiters will be and I'm not betting anything. Will some of the 56 players drafted after him have better careers? The chances are exceptionally good. I'll bet if you looked at every player drafted #4 in the last 30 years you would find very, very few that had a better career than every single player drafted after him. You could say the same thing about players drafted #1.

Funny you mentioned Westbrook. Jim Boeheim said Westbrook is the only NBA 2-guard who can stop Waiters one-on-one. So, I guess we know Waiters will suck for at least two games each year.

Waiters may end up being the next Smush Parker. But I've heard what Boeheim and Byron Scott have said about him, and I respect their expertise, so I like the pick. Scott described this kid as a "pit bull". They wanted somebody who could create his own shot and take the pressure off Kyrie of having to either score or get a teammate a good shot every time down. They realize what they have in Kyrie and they're looking to protect him. I suspect one reason LeBron left is he got tired of having to do it all himself.


Well, at least you've got the unbiased word from the guy who recruited him and coached him in college, and the guy who drafted him.

Any word yet on what his mother has to say?
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:34 pm

From Wikipedia:

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position... Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.

Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in military, political, and organizational contexts.


So yeah, Boeheim loves him, but hey, he's his coach. Scott loves him but, hey, he's just shilling for management. Grant loves him, but we know Grant is an idiot because he drafted TT. None of those opinions should be considered.

We know Waiters was a bad draft pick because none of the Internet draft sites had him ranked higher than #6, and, well, mainly because Grant drafted him.

We should have drafted somebody else and have either Boobie or Manny Harris start at the 2.

Confirmation bias. This board is the place to find it. All day and every day.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:24 pm

Prosecutor wrote:From Wikipedia:

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position... Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.

Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in military, political, and organizational contexts.


So yeah, Boeheim loves him, but hey, he's his coach. Scott loves him but, hey, he's just shilling for management. Grant loves him, but we know Grant is an idiot because he drafted TT. None of those opinions should be considered.

We know Waiters was a bad draft pick because none of the Internet draft sites had him ranked higher than #6, and, well, mainly because Grant drafted him.

We should have drafted somebody else and have either Boobie or Manny Harris start at the 2.

Confirmation bias. This board is the place to find it. All day and every day.


What exactly are you looking for? Fun fair positive posters singing the praises of the Cavs FO? Then we'd all be like you. Not much fun in that.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:34 pm

Prosecutor wrote:From Wikipedia:

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. For example, in reading about gun control, people usually prefer sources that affirm their existing attitudes. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position... Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.

Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in military, political, and organizational contexts.


So yeah, Boeheim loves him, but hey, he's his coach. Scott loves him but, hey, he's just shilling for management. Grant loves him, but we know Grant is an idiot because he drafted TT. None of those opinions should be considered.

We know Waiters was a bad draft pick because none of the Internet draft sites had him ranked higher than #6, and, well, mainly because Grant drafted him.

We should have drafted somebody else and have either Boobie or Manny Harris start at the 2.

Confirmation bias. This board is the place to find it. All day and every day.


Once again, you've missed the point.

My post referred to ZERO of my personal beliefs. It pointed to the fact that a guys college coach and the guy who drafted him are going to have nothing but positive things to say cause they are.......BIASED.

Go ahead and use the world wide web again Pros, and go ahead and use all four major sports. Then go ahead and post the negative quotes from the drafting team, about the player they just drafted.

Then go ahead and list all the bad things thier college coaches had to say.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:23 pm

My post wasn't specifically aimed at you, pipe, but at all the Cavs haters who repeatedly cherry pick data that they think can be twisted to support their POV ("The Cavs invited him to work out the day before the draft, that PROVES they fucked up the pick!!!") and who ignore or discount anything that might suggest the Cavs actually know what they're doing.

I get your point about coaches. However, it's bad business to badmouth a player publicly, even one who has left your program. Boeheim still has to keep recruiting.

That being said, the coach isn't required to gush. If he didn't like the kid, he would have said so behind closed doors to NBA scouts, and the kid would never have gone in the top 10. After the draft he didn't have to say anything beyond "Dion was as asset to our program and we wish him the best." Something generic and vaguely positive but not specific.

The fact that he's saying very complimentary things that he doesn't need to say tells me he's not making it up. What do you think, pipe? And by the way, if Boeheim is BIASED, how do you think he got that way? Do you think watching the kid every day in practice and games for two years might have made him biased? If that's the case, then I want that player. If Jimmy was neutral on him, or negative, then no way I want him at #4.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:21 pm

motherscratcher wrote:On the way to work this AM I was listening to Simmons podcast (I know. I've mostly sworn that asshat off, but I knew there would be draft talk involving the Cavs so...).

Chad Ford was on and they touched on last draft's debacle. Ford said that the Cavs loved JVala, but his agent didn't want him in Cleveland so he wouldn't give them an answer on when he would be able to cross the pond. Everyone knew last season was out, but they didn't know if it would be even longer so the Cavs decided he couldn't chance it.

AFAIC it was still an epic fuckup. Even if he wasn't coming this season. You have to draft that guy. He's more valuable in Europe than TT is in the NBA. Even if he's not on your team...what an asset to have. Ford insisted he'd have been #2 this draft.

Irving, Vala, and Robinson. Fuck me.


Very interesting information and the first time I heard that explanation. If you think back to the draft in 2011 the Cavs and Cleveland had just been rejected by their local superstar who didn't want to play there. Then they see a guy they are otherwise interested in drafting and his agent (and maybe the player himself?) don't want anything to do with Cleveland or the Cavs. I honestly can't blame them for not selecting the guy (if they first tried everything they could to get a positive dialogue with him and his agent and couldn't get one). I am sure the last thing they wanted at this time last year was another public rejection by a player who thought he was too good for them or didn't want to play there.

So, now I get what happened last year with Vala and the TT selection. What I now get even less is selecting Waiters (also a guy who wouldn't come work out for you and who you hadn't talked to).

If you thought character and finding guys who wanted to play for you last year was very important isn't it also important this year too? Maybe Boeheim and other coaches gave them a ton of info on him but their position on this seems pretty inconsistent.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:26 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
Irving, Vala, and Robinson. Fuck me.


Penis, penis, penis


You're going to have to elaborate on that, dude.




Are you implying that Mother get's bored so he likes to throw turds in the punchbowl just so he can watch the reaction??
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:25 pm

Regarding no workouts or no interviews:

If it seems like someone's hiding something, they probably are.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:51 am

OldDawg wrote:Regarding no workouts or no interviews:

If it seems like someone's hiding something, they probably are.


Here's the explanation, OD.

http://tracking.si.com/2012/06/14/phoen ... n-waiters/

Waiters didn't work out for anybody. My guess, and this is just a guess, is that his agent didn't think any NBA GM would have the balls to draft a guy that didn't start for his college team in the top 10. How do you explain that to your owner and fan base? So he figured 13th would be a great spot for his client. Not to mention he wouldn't have to risk getting injured while working out for a lot of teams and falling below 13.

Phoenix was concerned that if he interviewed and worked out for teams he would get drafted ahead of them. I wonder why they would think that?
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:58 am

YahooFanChicago wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:On the way to work this AM I was listening to Simmons podcast (I know. I've mostly sworn that asshat off, but I knew there would be draft talk involving the Cavs so...).

Chad Ford was on and they touched on last draft's debacle. Ford said that the Cavs loved JVala, but his agent didn't want him in Cleveland so he wouldn't give them an answer on when he would be able to cross the pond. Everyone knew last season was out, but they didn't know if it would be even longer so the Cavs decided he couldn't chance it.

AFAIC it was still an epic fuckup. Even if he wasn't coming this season. You have to draft that guy. He's more valuable in Europe than TT is in the NBA. Even if he's not on your team...what an asset to have. Ford insisted he'd have been #2 this draft.

Irving, Vala, and Robinson. Fuck me.


Very interesting information and the first time I heard that explanation. If you think back to the draft in 2011 the Cavs and Cleveland had just been rejected by their local superstar who didn't want to play there. Then they see a guy they are otherwise interested in drafting and his agent (and maybe the player himself?) don't want anything to do with Cleveland or the Cavs. I honestly can't blame them for not selecting the guy (if they first tried everything they could to get a positive dialogue with him and his agent and couldn't get one). I am sure the last thing they wanted at this time last year was another public rejection by a player who thought he was too good for them or didn't want to play there.

So, now I get what happened last year with Vala and the TT selection. What I now get even less is selecting Waiters (also a guy who wouldn't come work out for you and who you hadn't talked to).

If you thought character and finding guys who wanted to play for you last year was very important isn't it also important this year too? Maybe Boeheim and other coaches gave them a ton of info on him but their position on this seems pretty inconsistent.


This is confirmation bias at work again. A realistic explanation as to why the Cavs passed on Vala emerges and is met with stone cold silence by the haters. If you're convinced that Cavs management is incompetent you will ignore any evidence that suggests they're not while trumpeting anything that suggests they are (like drafting a player that wouldn't work out or interview).

It's so much easier to just say they're idiots in a knee-jerk response than to wait and find out the facts behind the decision.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:16 am

Prosecutor wrote:
OldDawg wrote:Regarding no workouts or no interviews:

If it seems like someone's hiding something, they probably are.


Here's the explanation, OD.

http://tracking.si.com/2012/06/14/phoen ... n-waiters/

Waiters didn't work out for anybody. My guess, and this is just a guess, is that his agent didn't think any NBA GM would have the balls to draft a guy that didn't start for his college team in the top 10. How do you explain that to your owner and fan base? So he figured 13th would be a great spot for his client. Not to mention he wouldn't have to risk getting injured while working out for a lot of teams and falling below 13.

Phoenix was concerned that if he interviewed and worked out for teams he would get drafted ahead of them. I wonder why they would think that?

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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:12 pm

I just can't shake this visual I have...

Chris Grant and the Cavs brass driving to the draft combine to evaluate all the draft prospects in that environment. On the way, they see Waiters, who skipped out on the combine and all work outs, playing in a playground pick up game with his boys. Being enthralled by the playground all-American, they decide to draft him over the guys that have thrived in more structured, confined environments like UNC, Kansas, etc.

Hey, when you were a kid, how many playground all-Americans did you know that couldn't make their own high school team. There's a reason Boheim didn't start the kid.

On top of that, many say Waiters needs to dominate the ball to be effective. Well, that fits well alongside Kyrie Irving.

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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby StewieG » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:19 pm

I can't believe I'm watching this slop, but the Cavs first summer league game is going on right now.

Zeller is the only guy playing decent minutes tonight that looks like he's ready to play NBA basketball. That includes TT, who is still a clusterfuck of flailing limbs both offensively and defensively. Zeller needs to get stronger though. He'll really struggle guarding bulkier Centers.

Waiters looked lost. I'm not going to make too much out of 1 summer league game, but he hasn't looked very good. He did show a nice crossover move early though. Seems to play the passing lanes heavily. Needs to get stronger for the defensive end.

Samardo Samuels has shed a TON of weight. Looks really good. You can tell he's able to move a lot better (as he should be).
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:42 pm

I love this synopsis on Dion Waiters from summer league by the PD:

http://blog.cleveland.com/cavshq/2012/0 ... _sama.html

Dion Waiters:

Waiters finished with 16 points after coming off the bench due to what the announcing crew called a "uniform issue." It didn't seem to hurt his production, as this was Waiters' highest scoring game of the Summer.

Waiters' shot is broken. Waiters shot just 5-for-15 from the field, bringing his overall Summer League shooting up to a miserable 30%. He missed all four of his shots outside of the paint. Badly.

But Waiters is starting to make his shots inside the paint, converting on 5 of 11 attempts near the hoop. Anything short of 50% is mediocre, but it is progress after his 2-for-7 performance in the paint on Monday. Waiters attacked the basket much more effectively on Tuesday night, using quality spin moves to create space and get to the basket. Waiters got further into the lane before going up with the ball, and that helped redeem an otherwise poor performance.

Waiters did look more comfortable on Tuesday night. Summer League remains a growing experience for Waiters, and the game against the Suns could be the first productive step towards Waiters becoming the player the Cavs want him to be. Baby steps.


Not exactly what you expect to read about your 4th pick in the NBA draft. I would expect to read that about 2nd round pick.

Please fire Grant now! You have all the data you need to do so.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:20 am

Yes. NBA Summer League. Where all NBA draft picks should be evaluated. After 3 games.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby jb » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:20 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Funny you mentioned Westbrook. Jim Boeheim said Westbrook is the only NBA 2-guard who can stop Waiters one-on-one.



Him, or apparently a buffet line chef and Chris Dudley as shooting coach.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby jb » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:23 pm

pup wrote:Yes. NBA Summer League. Where all NBA draft picks should be evaluated. After 3 games.


My imitation of Pup justifying Antoine Joubert meeting D'juan Wagner:

Image

Image
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby mattvan1 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:42 pm

pup wrote:Yes. NBA Summer League. Where all NBA draft picks should be evaluated. After 3 games.


Well...............of course you're right

But the guy has been shooting hoops since grade school, and the rim has stayed at 10 feet forever, and no one plays anything that even looks like D in Summer League games....
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:11 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
pup wrote:Yes. NBA Summer League. Where all NBA draft picks should be evaluated. After 3 games.


Well...............of course you're right

But the guy has been shooting hoops since grade school, and the rim has stayed at 10 feet forever, and no one plays anything that even looks like D in Summer League games....


And the less offensively-structured environment of summer league, where opponents are not really putting together scouting reports on dudes, should favor a guy like Waiters. When I read between the lines on this guy, it seems that he is a classic street-baller. This summer league is the closest thing to street-ball he is gonna see until he leaves the NBA... (possibly after his first contract runs out). This IS his time to shine. I mean for goodness sake, people dared to compare this kid to DWade. Could you imagine what a half-DWade would do in summer league??
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby JJN » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:47 am

Waiters is out of game shape and playing with the Scrub League All-Stars. I'm going to wait a bit to see how he looks after Scott actually has a chance to work with him.

And FWIW, I will admit that I can now see why people mention Wade. Similar build, not a good outside shooter, but quicker with the ball and better passing than you would expect. I don't think he'll be as good as Wade, but he could be pretty decent.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby jb » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:41 am

JJN wrote:Waiters is out of game shape and playing with the Scrub League All-Stars. I'm going to wait a bit to see how he looks after Scott actually has a chance to work with him.

And FWIW, I will admit that I can now see why people mention Wade. Similar build, not a good outside shooter, but quicker with the ball and better passing than you would expect. I don't think he'll be as good as Wade, but he could be pretty decent.


Wade build? More like Joubert.

Coming into camp overweight is inexcusable and a sign of things to come.

I'm also glossing him "Pearl" Waiters or maybe De-Berry...

Wasted pick. Another NY legend in his own mind 'cuse bust.

But TT has been working his mid-range game, so we got that going for us, which is nice.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:08 am

Its hard to imagine that TT at #4 pick last year is going to be a FAR better pick for the Cavs than Waiters at the #4 pick this year.

There were all the red flags from his college days. There were the red flags of him not going to the draft combine and not doing individual meetings and workouts with teams. And then this:

http://blog.cleveland.com/cavshq/2012/0 ... _zell.html

All of that info (even based on just a couple of BS summer league games) echos everyone's feelings about the kid when we drafted him.

I don't care how you shake it. I am not going to say, "give him some time." He's the effing 4th pick in the draft. He isn't supposed to be a project. He's fat. He doesn't want to work hard. He can't play D. He can't shoot (and he's a shooting guard). And, frankly, I don't think the kid is a competitor at all ... and I question his love for the game. How can you be out of shape NOW??? The most important time of your athletic life, and you're in piss poor shape. Are you serious. That doesn't happen to competitors. That's Mel Turpin. That's Jamarcus Russell.

Piss poor pick. The Cavs blew this one big time. Completely blew it.

Sick to my stomach. ::doh::
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:41 am

Blowing Tristan Thompson for his summer league shooting (and four board a game) is as stupid as hating on Waiters (and reminiscent of last year when everyone called Thompson amazing after his first few bullshit NBA games).

Far too early to say anything and conditioning problems with the rookies right now are huge league wide. Even Beal, who has looked damn well-rounded on offense is fat. These kids can't workout and run 5 on 5 for a real long time due to the draft process. There have been multiple articles written on the issue.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:06 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Blowing Tristan Thompson for his summer league shooting (and four board a game) is as stupid as hating on Waiters (and reminiscent of last year when everyone called Thompson amazing after his first few bullshit NBA games).

Far too early to say anything and conditioning problems with the rookies right now are huge league wide. Even Beal, who has looked damn well-rounded on offense is fat. These kids can't workout and run 5 on 5 for a real long time due to the draft process. There have been multiple articles written on the issue.

I am not praising TT in my post at all. On the contrary. I still think TT was a bad pick at 4 for the Cavs and his ceiling is blah for a #4 pick. I am still (over)reacting emotionally to what I believe is consecutive poor picks at #4 for the Cavs. My gut tells me that TT will be a better player than Waiters for the Cavs in the future. And that is not high praise for TT, but rather low praise for Waiters. Considering there were much more solid choices available over taking a guy with a ton of question marks...

As I mentioned in an earlier (over)reactionary post, this summer league should be a place where Waiters shines compared to the more "fundamental" program guys. And he has disappointed there.

Hey, I hope Waiters blows up and is a stud. I hope he can respond to coaching (although a red flag is that he didn't start at 'Cuse - pointing to problems with his coach). I will be the first to say I was wrong. But my gut tells me it will always be looked at as a bad pick for us. Particularly in light of some other players who were available. I am frustrated that our team is trying to rebuild and blows consecutive top 5 picks. That is no way to rebuild.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:11 am

My only point is that I don't think either were good picks, but running around yelling about Summer League shit is beyond silly.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:31 am

e0y2e3 wrote:My only point is that I don't think either were good picks, but running around yelling about Summer League shit is beyond silly.


Careful, someone might accuse you of whistling through the graveyard. Summer League is a huge predictor of NBA success.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby pod2dawg » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:23 pm

Summer League is..........well.....Summer League.

Kind of like Fall baseball in Ohio.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:40 pm

Hey, extrapolating mouth-breather, check the per 36min http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y2=2010

And at least one player here has handles
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby jb » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:29 pm

pup wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:My only point is that I don't think either were good picks, but running around yelling about Summer League shit is beyond silly.


Careful, someone might accuse you of whistling through the graveyard. Summer League is a huge predictor of NBA success.



It isn't the performance in summer league. Its the fatness and the injury. It is those on top of the shady pedegree. None of it is good.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:32 pm

BUMP.

With only half a season of hindsight, here's what the top of the draft should have looked like.

1. Lillard
2. Davis
3. Drummond
4. MKG
5. Beal
6. Barnes
7. Waiters

If I did this a week ago Sullinger probably goes ahead of Waiters too.

The argument can be made that Davis (and maybe even Drummond) still goes ahead of Lillard, as Lillard's essentially a finished product while they have a lot more upside.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby JJN » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:22 pm

CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! wrote:With only half a season of hindsight, here's what the top of the draft should have looked like.

1. Lillard
2. Davis
3. Drummond
4. MKG
5. Beal
6. Barnes
7. Waiters

If I did this a week ago Sullinger probably goes ahead of Waiters too.

The argument can be made that Davis (and maybe even Drummond) still goes ahead of Lillard, as Lillard's essentially a finished product while they have a lot more upside.


No, Davis still goes 1. Lillard should have went at 2 or 5 (if Drummond goes 2). Lillard has been great so far, but Davis has the potential to be a top 5 big, Lillard won't crack the top 10 point guard list.

Beal would still go 3, leaving a choice of Drummond or MKG. I really liked Drummond, but I can understand why teams were afraid of taking him high.

Barnes and Beal haven't played better than Waiters has. You could argue that Beal and Waiters are basically at a draw, but there hasn't been much of a difference. Long term, Waiters has the potential to be just as good as Beal. His shot is much better than any of us thought coming into the draft, despite his form, and Beal's shot hasn't really improved from where he was in college, despite his form.

Sullinger couldn't even stay on the floor before he was injured. I like the kid's game, but he just isn't lottery material.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:48 pm

Honestly think you're going to have to wait until the end of next year to evaluate this draft class. All of them are finding their way/niche, and some of them are going to have development (for better or worse) sped up by having to play major minutes, early. Barnes, MKG, Drummond could be at a different point in their growing up process if they got the minutes/run Lillard/Waiters/Davis are getting.

Maybe.
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Re: NBA Draft thread

Unread postby statmasta » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:08 pm

JJN wrote:Barnes and Beal haven't played better than Waiters has. You could argue that Beal and Waiters are basically at a draw, but there hasn't been much of a difference. Long term, Waiters has the potential to be just as good as Beal. His shot is much better than any of us thought coming into the draft, despite his form, and Beal's shot hasn't really improved from where he was in college, despite his form.

I don't know what you've been watching. Waiters is an atrocious shooter. Even when he's wide open with his feet set, he clanks a ton of jumpers off of the edge of the side of the rim. He struggles to shoot the ball straight with a set base. That's awful.

He's shooting 38.9% from the field and 31.1% from 3pt range. That's certainly not because he's a good shooter. Going by effective field goal percentage (adjusts for value of 3-pointers), Waiters is shooting 40.3% on jump shots. Compare that to Cavaliers players who are actually good at shooting. Kyrie's eFG% on jump shots: 52.1%. CJ Miles: 48.4%. Daniel Gibson: 49.4%. Ellington: 49.7%. Those are good shooting numbers. Dion Waiters is not a good shooter, and with his poor form, I highly doubt he'll become a good shooter.
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