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Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue May 22, 2012 2:06 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Excellent. Thank you.

As to GDP of the statistical area and the stagancy in its growth over that time period, any idea on operating costs for the Tribe and/or MLB salary growth, ticket prices, etc during that same period of time?


Indeed. And while you are doing all that research for Brian, could you throw in the following for me?

Annual season ticket base 1995-2012. Because that's the real story, IMO.


:tfh:

Lest it be forgotten, I'm not the most analytical individual registered here. That means not only do I not enjoy it, it means my 'research' would probably rely on shit like Bleacher Report. Those who spend time know where to get the right info and who to trust providing it.

:thumb up:
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby jb » Tue May 22, 2012 2:35 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:No argument and I wasn't aiming my response at you, it's JB that paraded in here and started up the early 2000 talking points.


Typical interwebs' silliness. Poster takes extreme sum zero position. Knows positions is off. Rather than come correct makes false assertion distorting original poster's point.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Jumbo » Tue May 22, 2012 2:55 pm

peeker643 wrote:Those who spend time know where to get the right info and who to trust providing it.

:thumb up:


I should bookmark this post for the next thread when pup goes off his rocker.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby pup » Tue May 22, 2012 3:00 pm

Jumbo wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Those who spend time know where to get the right info and who to trust providing it.

:thumb up:


I should bookmark this post for the next thread when pup goes off his rocker.


Note to self. If that happens, remind jumbo he was not researching anything to do with the game. :nanner:
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Jumbo » Tue May 22, 2012 3:42 pm

pup wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Those who spend time know where to get the right info and who to trust providing it.

:thumb up:


I should bookmark this post for the next thread when pup goes off his rocker.


Note to self. If that happens, remind jumbo he was not researching anything to do with the game. :nanner:


Touche.

But I fully intend to take Peeker's comment to apply to all things baseball.

:thumb up:
;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue May 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Jumbo wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:Annual season ticket base 1995-2012. Because that's the real story, IMO.


It's gone down.

;-) ;) :wink:

That's enough research for one day. Y'all have Google too, you know.


Actually that info is really hard to find. I've had no luck with Google.

Here's a 2009 piece on how innovative the Tribe FO is/was on tiering ticket packages. Mentions the departure of BP and TRW and the general downturn, but no numbers on the season ticket base.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a_U6TwV4RDJg
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby scrambler » Tue May 22, 2012 10:41 pm

I don't live there anymore...returned for a short time in '99-2000 and would always attend a few games a year. I simply don't get it. The crappy team excuse doesn't work for me. In less than 20 years they went from one of the best to rebuilding...making the playoffs again, nearly winning it all, dumping again, rebuilding again and pretty decent again the last two years. compared to the other two franchises they are very well run. The Cavs in the same time period won the lottery once and hit on a great player for a good run, and we're still waiting for the Browns to do anything consistently. 2007 was telling for me as they were pretty much in first wire to wire or very close and didn't draw well all year. 22nd out of 30 teams with one of the best teams in baseball. Their other contending year (2005) they were 24th out of 30 in attendance. That is sad. And last year semi-contention into August 24th out of 30 again...and 29th out of 30 this year.

I look at 2005, 2007, and 2011 and it is pretty much proven winning won't even help attendance much at all. If it continues to be proven that they can't draw even when winning I think eventually they may be in trouble in Cleveland. Several years away from that though. The trends are really bad.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby pup » Wed May 23, 2012 8:18 am

The crappy team thing doesn't work (and I am not sure it has been used by anyone here), just like the fans are front runners does not work. Because, you know, it is not a crappy team because they are in 1st place and fans being front runners would equate to attendance with them being...in front.

Which brings you to all the other stuff some have been saying for years now.

1. Average fans who get their sense of the organization from ESPN believe we cannot compete.
2. It is a lot harder to sell tickets in season than it is in the off season. When average fan sees other teams adding "stars" and the Indians adding retreads (as well as the retreads may be playing today means nothing to the appearance over the winter) it does not push anyone to the ticket office.
3. An owner who tells the fans we can only hope to compete occasionally.
4. An owner who tells the fans, pay me and then I will spend.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby comish » Wed May 23, 2012 10:42 am

You forgot to mention:

5. Allowing THEIR STARS to consistently leave for wealthier pastures

Now I agree that sometimes with a small market team you have to cut bait and allow them to go because the return may not be worth the investment, BUT, this is definately hurting with drawing the casual fan into the ballpark.

....are they REALLY small market though?
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby pup » Wed May 23, 2012 10:56 am

comish wrote:You forgot to mention:

5. Allowing THEIR STARS to consistently leave for wealthier pastures

Now I agree that sometimes with a small market team you have to cut bait and allow them to go because the return may not be worth the investment, BUT, this is definately hurting with drawing the casual fan into the ballpark.

....are they REALLY small market though?


Pretty sure my opinion on the front office is well noted. I can handle trading CC and Lee. It sucks, but I can.

Now, when you do...you had better come up with a better haul than middle relievers and bench guys. Which is where the issue is.

Had we traded them for guys that were littering the lineup and rotation at areas of need and those guys were becoming the next stars we would flip if the situation arose then all would be well in the circle of MLB.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby jb » Wed May 23, 2012 12:47 pm

pup wrote:
comish wrote:You forgot to mention:

5. Allowing THEIR STARS to consistently leave for wealthier pastures

Now I agree that sometimes with a small market team you have to cut bait and allow them to go because the return may not be worth the investment, BUT, this is definately hurting with drawing the casual fan into the ballpark.

....are they REALLY small market though?


Pretty sure my opinion on the front office is well noted. I can handle trading CC and Lee. It sucks, but I can.

Now, when you do...you had better come up with a better haul than middle relievers and bench guys. Which is where the issue is.

Had we traded them for guys that were littering the lineup and rotation at areas of need and those guys were becoming the next stars we would flip if the situation arose then all would be well in the circle of MLB.



+ sideways 8

When you take the cynicism that MLB economics means a small market has to execute perfectly with almost no margin for error btween windows of opportunity and it clearly shows in WS winners over the past 15 years, add in the cynicism of an FO that absolutely can not draft worth a damn, add in that they haven't have B2B winning seasons in a over decade so the feeling is these 1 year runs are flashes in the pan as fools' gold, and one that dealt 2 B2B Cy Young Award winners for stiff arm and quad A players, you got trouble in lake city.

But we beat the Tigres, so WS here we come!
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby pup » Wed May 23, 2012 1:03 pm

jb wrote:
pup wrote:
comish wrote:You forgot to mention:

5. Allowing THEIR STARS to consistently leave for wealthier pastures

Now I agree that sometimes with a small market team you have to cut bait and allow them to go because the return may not be worth the investment, BUT, this is definately hurting with drawing the casual fan into the ballpark.

....are they REALLY small market though?


Pretty sure my opinion on the front office is well noted. I can handle trading CC and Lee. It sucks, but I can.

Now, when you do...you had better come up with a better haul than middle relievers and bench guys. Which is where the issue is.

Had we traded them for guys that were littering the lineup and rotation at areas of need and those guys were becoming the next stars we would flip if the situation arose then all would be well in the circle of MLB.



+ sideways 8

When you take the cynicism that MLB economics means a small market has to execute perfectly with almost no margin for error btween windows of opportunity and it clearly shows in WS winners over the past 15 years, add in the cynicism of an FO that absolutely can not draft worth a damn, add in that they haven't have B2B winning seasons in a over decade so the feeling is these 1 year runs are flashes in the pan as fools' gold, and one that dealt 2 B2B Cy Young Award winners for stiff arm and quad A players, you got trouble in lake city.

But we beat the Tigres, so WS here we come!


And whether anyone likes it or not, that is the perception that a majority (simple minded majority if that makes some feel better) have of this organization.

You have to give people reasons to buy your tickets. Players are those reasons.

1. Sell more luxury suites
2. Sell a bunch of tickets to the "premium" games over the off season.
3. Sell a bunch of the rest of the tickets in the traditional nice weather times over the off season.
4. 2+3 equals forcing people to buy tickets to the other game if they want to see the team play.
5. Making people want to see the team play involves having a season of winning and is followed by an off season of addition. Addition, to 90% of the ticket buyers, is not Kasey Kotchman and Derek Lowe. As good as Lowe has been, and as much as Kotchman has improved recently means nothing to ticket buyers in March.

You don't get 25K down there consistently selling tickets to people that are on these boards. You get 12K. You need to provide something tangible (in those people's opinions) to attract the rest of the crowd. If someone budgets for 7 Tribe games in 2012, and knows there will be good seats available on the day of most games are they buying in advance to see the Royals in May? Shit no. They will drop their $$$ on the Tigers in August, or the Rays in July so on and so forth.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Govbarney » Wed May 23, 2012 2:04 pm

Historical Perspective.

In 1954 Cleveland's population was 914,808, the post war economy was booming, Baseball was the nations favorite sport. The Browns where practically a expansion team (granted a really freaking good one), and people lived in the city closer to the ballpark as opposed to in a distant suburb. It was arguably Cleveland's Golden age and baseball tickets and concessions where cheap.

Yet in 1954 a year the Tribe spent a good chunk of the season in first place, won 111 games, and finished 8 games ahead of 2nd place NY. The Tribe averaged only 17,121 fans per game and the season total was only 1,335,472*. In '53 the Tribe averaged only 13,796 per game, prior to that they had 4 straight seasons over 20K, capped with a 30K season in '48. Between '54 and '93 they only topped 17K once , and that was in '59 when they had 19,495.

Bottom line , are current attendance only looks back when you compare it to the rest of the nations, but is par for the course if you look at the last 60 years of the club.

*Played only 154 games
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby comish » Wed May 23, 2012 2:47 pm

pup wrote: You don't get 25K down there consistently selling tickets to people that are on these boards. You get 12K. You need to provide something tangible (in those people's opinions) to attract the rest of the crowd. If someone budgets for 7 Tribe games in 2012, and knows there will be good seats available on the day of most games are they buying in advance to see the Royals in May? Shit no. They will drop their $$$ on the Tigers in August, or the Rays in July so on and so forth.


BINGO!

I think there are some on here who are glossing over the fact that the majority of the public just can't identify with this team. I know they seem like good guys and are hard working, hard playing and all, BUT...and at the risk of sounding like a simplistic - me need offense - baseball fan, they ARE a tad boring to watch. I'll keep tuning in, but I guess I'm just a shade above the average Indians fan...or not.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Wed May 23, 2012 3:20 pm

Govbarney wrote: *Played only 154 games


I was thinking of this yesterday. Reduce the number of games, increase the demand, get rid of some of those weekday games.

Keeps overhead lower, while increasing the total gross per game. Set up the schedule for 4 game series (Thursday to Sunday), get rid of interleague play. Well rested players = better baseball?
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Govbarney » Wed May 23, 2012 3:39 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
Govbarney wrote: *Played only 154 games


I was thinking of this yesterday. Reduce the number of games, increase the demand, get rid of some of those weekday games.

Keeps overhead lower, while increasing the total gross per game. Set up the schedule for 4 game series (Thursday to Sunday), get rid of interleague play. Well rested players = better baseball?


It will never happen , but I think its great idea. Plus you can end the World Series in mid October as opposed to early November.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby scrambler » Wed May 23, 2012 10:19 pm

We're winning the World Series in Twelve. I could care less about tribe thirteen or Browns 13 or Cavs 13.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby feuders » Wed May 23, 2012 10:36 pm

Govbarney wrote:Historical Perspective.

In 1954 Cleveland's population was 914,808, the post war economy was booming, Baseball was the nations favorite sport. The Browns where practically a expansion team (granted a really freaking good one), and people lived in the city closer to the ballpark as opposed to in a distant suburb. It was arguably Cleveland's Golden age and baseball tickets and concessions where cheap.

Yet in 1954 a year the Tribe spent a good chunk of the season in first place, won 111 games, and finished 8 games ahead of 2nd place NY. The Tribe averaged only 17,121 fans per game and the season total was only 1,335,472*. In '53 the Tribe averaged only 13,796 per game, prior to that they had 4 straight seasons over 20K, capped with a 30K season in '48. Between '54 and '93 they only topped 17K once , and that was in '59 when they had 19,495.

Bottom line , are current attendance only looks back when you compare it to the rest of the nations, but is par for the course if you look at the last 60 years of the club.

*Played only 154 games


Further perspective: in 1954 those figures were 3rd best in the entire league. The only team with attendance significantly higher than the Indians that year (by about 10k per game!) was the Milwaukee Braves. There has to be some reason for that (my hunch would be that it was largely since it was only their 2nd season in Milwaukee, but I really have no idea).
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Wed May 23, 2012 11:04 pm

Just to depress us all, I often wonder what the fan base of the Indians would look like if they had sealed the deal in 2007. I think a title would've changed a lot. The Browns suddenly look even more pathetic and LeBron James isn't the guy who carries 40-odd years of misery upon his shoulders. On the other hand, with a title in hand Dolan probably leverages the financial viability of the team to keep Sabathia and Lee in Cleveland.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Govbarney » Thu May 24, 2012 7:30 am

Dellucci TailGator wrote:Just to depress us all, I often wonder what the fan base of the Indians would look like if they had sealed the deal in 2007. I think a title would've changed a lot. The Browns suddenly look even more pathetic and LeBron James isn't the guy who carries 40-odd years of misery upon his shoulders. On the other hand, with a title in hand Dolan probably leverages the financial viability of the team to keep Sabathia and Lee in Cleveland.


I brought up this point before. I really think if any team in Cleveland won a title it would change the psyche in Cleveland 180 degrees , and would positively effect the attendance of all three major Cleveland sports. 48 years of losing has left the town snake bitten.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Goozer » Thu May 24, 2012 5:05 pm

Sorry for the length but given my lack of being here often I might as well get my moneys worth ...

Season ticket base circa 1995 - 2001 ranged from 25k - 27k. And it is important to note that the Indians cut off season ticket sales in a couple of those years and established a wait list.

Season ticket base today is approx. 8k for a staggering difference of nearly 20k per home date.

The difference isn't Joe Casual Fan that goes to 2-3 home games per year. They still show up. Only there is really no reason to do so before the weather turns good or until school is out. Why buy a ticket in November 5 months before the season begins for a weekday game on a Wednesday in April when you KNOW that there will be 30,000 tickets available come day of game in April. Simple suppy and demand. Hence why seasons were sold our around turkey day 15 years ago. Anyone remember the Family Ties episode (spare the insults) circa 1985 where Alex/Peter Keaton and crew were driving up from cowtown to a game and were worried about not getting in the door. They called and asked for 5 tickets? Ticket sales guy on other end - yea, we can squeeze you in as we have 71,000 seats still available. Anyhow ...

The difference isn't Joe Fan. And kudos above to eieio, mattvan, jumbo whomever for getting into the real problem which is Corporate America. CLE has lost a dozen or so, if not more, Fortune 1000 type companies compared to 1995 (which most large cities including the big markets have lost), but the problem is no new ones have moved into or been created in the area. The Jake has +/- 120 suites which in retrospect is way too many - name me another stadium in the last 10 years including the big markets that have this many - and the Indians are currently are struggling to sell 50% of the 120 suites. How else can they offer the use of a suite to current season ticket holders - do the math? Couple the Fortune 1000 loss, with the simple fact that the many middle market companies and even small business refuse to entertain at least to this degree, or at best have moved their entertainment dollar over to the Gund circa 2003 - the Factory of Sadness (shudder at that thought - and you have the anti-perfect storm where the season ticket base has reduced to the tune of 1.5MM fans annually and a fan base that is now conditinoed to revert to 1984 form and only purchase on day of game, or wait until Memorial Day at the earlies to show up and you have what you have.

Because of this, and to peeks original question, I'd argue that if someone were to press control/alt/delete tomorrow and divy up 4 professional sports leagues across the US of A that CLE certainly wouldn't be a 3 sport town - it would likely be a 2 sport town. At the same time within the current environment and reality CLE can still "support" 3 teams and likely will for the short and near term only because all 3 franchises have new stadiums and/or local owners committed to staying here and/or would only sell to someone with a local presence. Combine that environment with an economic one where public facilities aren't getting built (budget problems everywhere at the state and local level) that no leagues can or will expand ... hell you hear contraction 100x to every one expansion question which is likely coming from a Phist type in a message board. As an example, C-bus probably "should" have a second big league sport based on metrics alone, and setting aside the Ohio State factor, but it cannot an will not get an NBA, MLB or NFL franchise anytime in the next 10+ years despite how many refugees flock to High Street or despite the cries of Mayor Coleman.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:43 pm

TV viewership down 24% year over year on STO.

Move. The. Team.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby jb » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:08 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:TV viewership down 24% year over year on STO.

Move. The. Team.



This a good time for you to tell me how super-swesome carlos santana is again?
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:57 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:TV viewership down 24% year over year on STO.

Move. The. Team.


Where? Vegas? Vancouver? San Antonio? Really..who wants them? What do you do with Tampa? Move them too?
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:01 pm

I dunno, contract them then, I don't give a fuck, just either send them to a market that care or dispose of them altogether.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:04 pm

There is no chance..none..that the player's union would ever agree to a contraction. You have a better chance of Michele Bachmann being named "Muslim Friend of the Year" than that. So again..where do you move them?
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:06 pm

Plenty of options better than record setting attendance failures matched only by a huge decline in TV viewership.

Again, do you realize how LITTLE people in Cleveland follow this team? Kansas City looks like the Yankees in comparision.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:07 pm

But I do appreciate how the excuses have gone from "it's expensive to park downtown and Cleveland is broke!!!!" to "well other markets might suck too!!!"
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:11 pm

I guess you were too busy doing whatever you do during the All Star break to notice Selig's comments. And the point that you are missing is that no one wants to shell out for a major league team..no one. Again...give me the name of a city that is dying to spend tons of money to get a franchise.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:14 pm

I see where e0y is coming from. Attendence and ratings suck. The fan base is apathetic. It fucking blows and it's embarassing to us here that love the team and do go to games and pay attention. I don't know why it's come to this but it has. I don't know if there is hope for better in the future. If the team did move I'd have trouble blaming them.

That being said, the team is profitable. Judging by whatever-the-fuck that report was a few months ago they are doing quite well for themselves, as I assume pretty much all sports owners are, no matter what they try to tell us.

So, why would they move a team making money unless there was some kind of stadium deal? Because "deserve"? Nobody gives a fuck about "deserve".
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:25 pm

Major League Baseball is making money hand over fist on the whole.

That said, trusting the Forbes numbers (which have been exposed 100s of times) is ridiculously stupid, not factoring in the fact that the value of the Indians is pretty damn near the inflation adjusted value Dolan paid for it (read not very valuable) and then factoring in that fans sit and scream about a lack of investing without even watching the fucking TV Network makes a shit ton of sense.

And let's not forget that STO was supposed to save the Indians from being a poor team, the shit fans ruining even that means, well, stop bitching or deal with your payroll.

Christ Big, people will always pay for sports Franchises. Stern tried to sell the same fucking shit last year and has turned over three teams since he cried poor. And when you can have the Indians for a cool few hundred million versus the Dodgets for $2BB....
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:30 pm

And my answer to Stern crying poor was the same it is to Selig, then contract, because the Indians are wasting the fans time and the fans are wasting the Indians time.

But hey, I point you one forum down where you have 50 dudes masturbating over the Browns taking the a tall and fast dude who hasn't played football for ages as the highest player taken in the supplmental draft in 9 years out of sheer fear for losing their jobs. So Cleveland will always have that ridiculous relationship with the shit and orange.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:56 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And let's not forget that STO was supposed to save the Indians from being a poor team, the shit fans ruining even that means, well, stop bitching or deal with your payroll.


One day I'll tell you just how ignorant that particular comment is...

Not the sentiment about the team being viable here long term, because you may be right (though the steadfast and minority impassioned will have your head) but in regard to literally dozens of other things that will make your paragraph up there not worth the ether it's written in.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby jerryroche » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:55 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:TV viewership down 24% year over year on STO.

The team still has plenty of value, at least to me. Most nights, I can crank back the easy chair at 7 p.m. and be asleep by 9 or 9:30. Better than Lunesta.
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Re: Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

Unread postby pup » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:27 pm

Keep the team. Move the owners. Fire the front office.
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