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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:12 am

Spin wrote:The report includes emails between the four, and other evidence. I'm leaning toward it being accurate. Setting aside Buckeye bias and "other schools have covered up XYZ", the evidence is still damning IMHO.


More specifically my point is were conclusions drawn from preconceived opinions, or even the fact that Sandusky was found guilty, as opposed to founded evidence?
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:22 am

Erie Warrior wrote:
Spin wrote:The report includes emails between the four, and other evidence. I'm leaning toward it being accurate. Setting aside Buckeye bias and "other schools have covered up XYZ", the evidence is still damning IMHO.


More specifically my point is were conclusions drawn from preconceived opinions, or even the fact that Sandusky was found guilty, as opposed to founded evidence?


Did you read the report? Is that the conclusion you came to?

For me its pretty damn cut and dry, there is very little that must be inferred from the evidence.

Re-read the report.....Read the article I posted comparing Joe's statments to the report findings..I really have no idea what you could possibly be referring to with regards to that question....It makes me think you havent read it for yourself.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby CP » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:16 pm

Two points on the "death penalty" and why I'm in favor of it.

First, as a practical matter, it has never actually meant "death". It's more of an indefinite suspension with the ability to apply for reinstatement. So "killing" PSU athletics isn't exactly "killing PSU athletics".

Second, as to what it will accomplish, it should serve to put every athletic department on notice that for certain crimes, issues and violations, there is no possible justification at this point for covering it up. A cover-up of something of this magnitude by those in charge has to result in a massive and practical punishment.

The death penalty, which likely eliminates athletics for a year or two, is the only appropriate measure for the NCAA to take.

I get the losses that could be suffered here for PSU. I'm fully aware of the harshness of the penalty. It's not as though there isn't legal precedent for an employer getting shut down completely for a number of violations. Enron employed 20,000+ before it was brought down, directly and indirectly, by the system of fraud perpetrated by Kenneth Lay and his minions, and the percentage of those who knew what was going on there vs. PSU was similar. Arthur Anderson had 80,000 employees when that all went down, and a very small percentage of those employees were involved in the scandal. They were all innocent, and they went down because the employer committed crimes.

Here, the death penalty against PSU athletics will not result in the apocalyptic job loss that occurred then, nor will its punishment carry with it the permanency of that situation. PSU as an institution will survive whatever punishment it gets.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:22 pm

JCoz wrote: It makes me think you havent read it for yourself.


No, I haven't. It was a serious question, is it possible? Or, if you look at it from the other direction, could it be proven false in court?

Just another point of view to consider.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby furls » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:01 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:This all from one of the Wired Editors:

Jason Fagone ‏@jfagone

To anyone talking about a "death penalty" for Penn State football, here are some of the consequences.

First, all other sports die. All. Other. Sports. Because PSU football subsidizes the rest. All women's sports, particularly, go away.

The only sports at PSU that make money are football and men's basketball. And men's basketball only makes $$$ b/c of Big Ten contract.

At that point, Penn State has to drop out of the Big Ten. That's a big deal. B/c membership in Big Ten has been huge for PSU.

Not just athletically but academically. When PSU first joined the Big Ten, it had to compare the rest of the univ. to Big Ten schools.

Major academic powerhouses: Michigan, Wisconsin, Northwestern. PSU didn't measure up. So huge academic investments were made.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier: it's not just the $40 million football economy that goes. It's academics.

There's a tangible risk of decreased state appropriations; legislators go to football games, get free tix. That's 14 % of total budget.

Applications go down; academic research suggests that more students apply to schools w/winning fb teams.

More applications allows for a greater selectivity of incoming freshman classes = a greater quality of PSU student.

Mr. @MRBIGSPORTSWRITER brought up SMU and Boston College earlier. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

It was actually Boston University, and the BU program was LOSING money, and the students weren't attending games. (e0: TRUTH)

In fact, according to Globe, the B.U. fb team was so unpopular that students were “more likely to have attended an opera than a fb game.”

In 2009, Northeastern University made the same decision, after watching its football team rack up 5 straight losing seasons. (e0: TRUTH: they tried to recruit me... SMH)

And good on them. But Boston is a great city! Lots of other stuff to do. State College is in the middle of nowhere.

Now, I understand that people sincerely believe -- and I believe @BIGSPORTSWRITER sincerely believes -- that the crime is monstrous.

And yes, it is a monstrous crime. I was fucking heartbroken today. It was such a difficult day.

I cannot understand how every adult -- EVERY FUCKING ADULT -- failed to do anything. Except, arguably, maybe, McQueary. MAYBE.

And I feel a great sense of shame and confusion and anger and sadness. Seriously, it was a really hard day.

And I never cared that much about football. I went to like 2 football games as a student. But today was hard anyway.

But here is the thing: I thought that the conversation I was having with @BIGSPORTSWRITER was one about a punishment and a crime.

And the question is, re: the death penalty for PSU football -- does that punishment fit the (uniquely monstrous) crime?

And I was trying to point out: you can't even answer that question if you don't know, or care, about the dimensions of the punishment.

And the punishment, I would argue, would also be quite unique. In fact, unique in all of the history of higher education.

SMU was different. SMU was not a school where the social glue was football.

Finally, I get that some people will still feel like the death penalty is appropriate. And I hear you and I respect that.

--------------

This shit has been going on and will go on all night, just some food for thought.


All the stuff from your post is exactly why something must be done and it should be the university. Football is the GLUE of the community. It is everything. It is the power in that hamlet, on that campus and in the institution. It is not unlike Columbus with one significant difference, Columbus is a city; Happy Valley is not. There isn't anything going on there except football.

When you read the quoted stuff above it feels clear that people don't get it. The school needs to de-emphasize the football program (this coming from a guy that where Buckeye gear everywhere) or subject itself to the same corruption within the institution. PSU should gracefully bow out of NCAAF this year "to get their priorities straight" and the NCAA should let them, allow their players to transfer if they so desire (without penalty). The NCAA should then stay out and let this thing die. I don't know if anyone will be able to root for that school this year.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby furls » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:04 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
JCoz wrote: It makes me think you havent read it for yourself.


No, I haven't. It was a serious question, is it possible? Or, if you look at it from the other direction, could it be proven false in court?

Just another point of view to consider.


Jay Paterno (and the 2% of PSU fans of like mind) are reaching for a way to continue to keep their heads in the sand.

The investigators use language censuring PSU's BOT, AD, Paterno and everyone else that I found shocking for lawyers talking about their clients. They blasted them and held nothing back while very clearly connecting the dots. Freeh went so far as to basically say that Spanier and co. are basically full of shit.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:12 pm

furls wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:This all from one of the Wired Editors:

Jason Fagone ‏@jfagone

To anyone talking about a "death penalty" for Penn State football, here are some of the consequences.

First, all other sports die. All. Other. Sports. Because PSU football subsidizes the rest. All women's sports, particularly, go away.

The only sports at PSU that make money are football and men's basketball. And men's basketball only makes $$$ b/c of Big Ten contract.

At that point, Penn State has to drop out of the Big Ten. That's a big deal. B/c membership in Big Ten has been huge for PSU.

Not just athletically but academically. When PSU first joined the Big Ten, it had to compare the rest of the univ. to Big Ten schools.

Major academic powerhouses: Michigan, Wisconsin, Northwestern. PSU didn't measure up. So huge academic investments were made.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier: it's not just the $40 million football economy that goes. It's academics.

There's a tangible risk of decreased state appropriations; legislators go to football games, get free tix. That's 14 % of total budget.

Applications go down; academic research suggests that more students apply to schools w/winning fb teams.

More applications allows for a greater selectivity of incoming freshman classes = a greater quality of PSU student.

Mr. @MRBIGSPORTSWRITER brought up SMU and Boston College earlier. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

It was actually Boston University, and the BU program was LOSING money, and the students weren't attending games. (e0: TRUTH)

In fact, according to Globe, the B.U. fb team was so unpopular that students were “more likely to have attended an opera than a fb game.”

In 2009, Northeastern University made the same decision, after watching its football team rack up 5 straight losing seasons. (e0: TRUTH: they tried to recruit me... SMH)

And good on them. But Boston is a great city! Lots of other stuff to do. State College is in the middle of nowhere.

Now, I understand that people sincerely believe -- and I believe @BIGSPORTSWRITER sincerely believes -- that the crime is monstrous.

And yes, it is a monstrous crime. I was fucking heartbroken today. It was such a difficult day.

I cannot understand how every adult -- EVERY FUCKING ADULT -- failed to do anything. Except, arguably, maybe, McQueary. MAYBE.

And I feel a great sense of shame and confusion and anger and sadness. Seriously, it was a really hard day.

And I never cared that much about football. I went to like 2 football games as a student. But today was hard anyway.

But here is the thing: I thought that the conversation I was having with @BIGSPORTSWRITER was one about a punishment and a crime.

And the question is, re: the death penalty for PSU football -- does that punishment fit the (uniquely monstrous) crime?

And I was trying to point out: you can't even answer that question if you don't know, or care, about the dimensions of the punishment.

And the punishment, I would argue, would also be quite unique. In fact, unique in all of the history of higher education.

SMU was different. SMU was not a school where the social glue was football.

Finally, I get that some people will still feel like the death penalty is appropriate. And I hear you and I respect that.

--------------

This shit has been going on and will go on all night, just some food for thought.


All the stuff from your post is exactly why something must be done and it should be the university. Football is the GLUE of the community. It is everything. It is the power in that hamlet, on that campus and in the institution. It is not unlike Columbus with one significant difference, Columbus is a city; Happy Valley is not. There isn't anything going on there except football.

When you read the quoted stuff above it feels clear that people don't get it. The school needs to de-emphasize the football program (this coming from a guy that where Buckeye gear everywhere) or subject itself to the same corruption within the institution. PSU should gracefully bow out of NCAAF this year "to get their priorities straight" and the NCAA should let them, allow their players to transfer if they so desire (without penalty). The NCAA should then stay out and let this thing die. I don't know if anyone will be able to root for that school this year.


Every single big football school in the country would have that kind of post whether it was regarding tats or this. I firmly believe that.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby mattvan1 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:14 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
JCoz wrote: It makes me think you havent read it for yourself.


No, I haven't. It was a serious question, is it possible?


No. It is not possible.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:21 pm

As eye mentioned the results of a death penalty could be widespread and cause unintended consequences, but the more you think about how much football was prioritized over human decency and common sense the more maybe such a thing needs to happen to Happy Valley. Not only as a justifiable punishment for disturbing crimes (and a certain level of enabling) but also to regenerate a value system and reiterate reasonable priorities.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby furls » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:52 pm

No denying it Peek. There is a huge gap between trinkets for tatts and this, but point is still solid.

The point I was trying to emphasize is the whole (paraphrased), "You can't take football away from PSU it is what makes PSU what it is." That is exactly the problem, and until that is addressed the tail will keep wagging the dog.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:54 pm

That isn't the point, the point is killing football purely acomplishes good.

Reading that series of Tweets as saying that is taking the very most simplistic interpretation you can from it. And again, that series of Tweets was in referrence to the death penalty, not some single season suspension or anything of that sort.

Personally I am good with just whiping out all the wins since 1998, but whatever. There is some strange brilliance to a self-inflicted single season ban.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:58 pm

I don't read it that way. I read it as some (if not lots) of good will someday come from this (in terms of rebuilding the importance of real things), but only if we wipe everything clean and virtually start over.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:02 pm

I can understand getting behind a self inflicted cancelling of a season or two. But isn't that a bit akin to somebody committing suicide, in the sense that they are taking the cheap/easy way out of a problem and not facing reality head on? In this case would a self inflicted ban be genuine on PSU's part? Or more for show and for hopes that it is enough to cease further sanctions?
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby furls » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:21 pm

FUDU wrote:I can understand getting behind a self inflicted cancelling of a season or two. But isn't that a bit akin to somebody committing suicide, in the sense that they are taking the cheap/easy way out of a problem and not facing reality head on? In this case would a self inflicted ban be genuine on PSU's part? Or more for show and for hopes that it is enough to cease further sanctions?


All this depends on the narrative that the national media spins on it. There is NO punishment possible under the NCAA that will actually atone for the failures at PSU. That is because it is not the organizations job, but there clearly is a lack of institutional control here; the football coach did whatever he wanted within the university.

In this case "suicide" looks a lot more honorable than homicide (NCAA inflicted). How does a bowl ban look in comparison to this shit storm? A bowl ban is insulting because it some insinuates that giving up a bowl somehow atones for it. How many scholarships are appropriate? Lets see... 13 victims, 5 scholarships per victim, 65 lost scholarship over 5 years so 13 schollies a year for 5 years? It is just ridiculous to try to connect an "NCAA Punishment" to this case. The only gesture IMO that even has a shot to come across as genuine is to cancel the season to ensure that they have this under control and have it right.

The point is not punishment, it is about showing respect for the severity of the crisis, the victims and the failures of the school. It is about showing (at least for one year) that PSU is about more than football. I doubt they will pur$ue a cour$e that i$ thi$ unpopular at home. I am $ure that the financial a$pect$ would have nothing to do with it.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:39 pm

Now I think it is about both respect and punishment. PSU will gets theirs in court no doubt, but that doesn't mean they still don't have something coming from the NCAA, no matter how hypocritical the NCAA can be.

Showing respect for the victims is going to require something different, and probably much more enduring from PSU. I respect a self inflicted ban, I'm just not sure you can quantify it's sincerity in terms of # of seasons either.

In regards to further legal proceedings, I am very anxious to see if anyone of these people, including Mrs. Tickle Monster gets charged with child endangerment. If anyone is charged as such it would most likely be her, and I'm willing to bet the odds are better than most think. The specifics of that are strictly based on knowing of one incident with one child, and then that child getting abused a second time or more afterwards. I'd find it hard to believe they won't grill her looking for that information.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby noles1 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:48 pm

CP wrote:Two points on the "death penalty" and why I'm in favor of it.

First, as a practical matter, it has never actually meant "death". It's more of an indefinite suspension with the ability to apply for reinstatement. So "killing" PSU athletics isn't exactly "killing PSU athletics".

Second, as to what it will accomplish, it should serve to put every athletic department on notice that for certain crimes, issues and violations, there is no possible justification at this point for covering it up. A cover-up of something of this magnitude by those in charge has to result in a massive and practical punishment.

The death penalty, which likely eliminates athletics for a year or two, is the only appropriate measure for the NCAA to take.

I get the losses that could be suffered here for PSU. I'm fully aware of the harshness of the penalty. It's not as though there isn't legal precedent for an employer getting shut down completely for a number of violations. Enron employed 20,000+ before it was brought down, directly and indirectly, by the system of fraud perpetrated by Kenneth Lay and his minions, and the percentage of those who knew what was going on there vs. PSU was similar. Arthur Anderson had 80,000 employees when that all went down, and a very small percentage of those employees were involved in the scandal. They were all innocent, and they went down because the employer committed crimes.

Here, the death penalty against PSU athletics will not result in the apocalyptic job loss that occurred then, nor will its punishment carry with it the permanency of that situation. PSU as an institution will survive whatever punishment it gets.



So I'm on the same page with you... Death penalty for the football program for a year or two similar to SMU?

I can align with that. Again I have not fully baked my opinion on the matter but as long as we aren't talking about shutting down an entire athetic program indefinitely then I think it's a fair debate to have on punishment.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby StewieG » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:55 pm

My wild-ass guess as to what ends up happening w/r/t the football program is this:

-Vacate all wins since 1998. JoePa's wins during that period also vacated (meaning he is no longer the winningest coach of all time). Paterno's statue is removed, and his name is removed from any university buildings. Any reference to Sandusky having ever been there is removed. The "Second Mile" charity ceases to exist (a new, similar one may go up in its place...but not sure on that)

-1 year football ban. No games played for the 2012 (or, maybe, 2013) season. All games during that span are forfeited. Players are allowed to transfer with no penalty.

-A charity is set up that focuses on both the prevention of this sort of thing, and helping those who have been affected by it. The school donates a large chunk of money to get it started, and the football program donates a percentage of their profits to it every year.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:09 pm

I don't give a shit what happens to PSU. Couldn't care less. It's not going to un-rape those kids.

So why give a shit?

Let the fake ass moral compass cunts in the media blather.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby noles1 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:16 pm

For further clarification on the amount of victims (and not to be overly specific or douch-ey here) but the true count is almost completely unknown.

We have 13-14 cases brought to court. But by all accounts and Sandusk'y step son being one there was a whole other line of additional boys that evidence was gathered or being worked on. Not to mention those that came forward. Throw in their families and the irrevocable damage those in and around the families and the sheer numbers here are very difficult to process.

Then you have the likes of LaVarr Arrington and likely countless others that were around this and have to wake up and try to come to grips with what they may have indirectly aided in. Just brutal.

Then you have the community as a whole, previously discussed. Many of the rational folks (particularly those with children) there trying to cope with the esential proof of this.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill 2.0 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:41 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I don't give a shit what happens to PSU. Couldn't care less. It's not going to un-rape those kids.

So why give a shit?

Let the fake ass moral compass cunts in the media blather.


^^^^^^^^^^^

I wonder how many NCAA big wigs are pedos?
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:21 pm

Have you heard anything LaVar said on Wetzel to Forde last night noles?

Because before saying anything you should.

And, FWIW, take a season, don't it doesn't matter. Eliminating Joe Pa's legacy from 1998 to now by eliminating all of the wins stands stronger against the false gawd syndrome than anything going forward does. Eliminating all of the results of that deadly devotion is fairly perfect.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:49 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Have you heard anything LaVar said on Wetzel to Forde last night noles?

Because before saying anything you should.

And, FWIW, take a season, don't it doesn't matter. Eliminating Joe Pa's legacy from 1998 to now by eliminating all of the wins stands stronger against the false gawd syndrome than anything going forward does. Eliminating all of the results of that deadly devotion is fairly perfect.


That looks good on paper and it surely hurts them historically speaking, but IMO it doesn't cut it. All that does is change a few record books and add fodder to social media fan ranting. People who were involved in the games and people who watched them know who won the games.

I'm not pretending to have the answer mind you, I just feel that since life at Penn State should have been about more than football, the forthcoming penance should be as well.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby noles1 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:03 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Have you heard anything LaVar said on Wetzel to Forde last night noles?

Because before saying anything you should.

And, FWIW, take a season, don't it doesn't matter. Eliminating Joe Pa's legacy from 1998 to now by eliminating all of the wins stands stronger against the false gawd syndrome than anything going forward does. Eliminating all of the results of that deadly devotion is fairly perfect.


Yeah caught the excerpts last night. Wetzel has continued to report the shit out of this. (Running circles around the pitiful WWL.) Having also caught his comments after Victim 4's testimony. Can't help but be impressed with his willingness to open up and share his thoughts and perspective. His inner conflict seems to bleed thru with each word. He proposed some of his thoughts but even then, I get a sense that even then he'd still be at a loss.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:08 pm

FUDU wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Have you heard anything LaVar said on Wetzel to Forde last night noles?

Because before saying anything you should.

And, FWIW, take a season, don't it doesn't matter. Eliminating Joe Pa's legacy from 1998 to now by eliminating all of the wins stands stronger against the false gawd syndrome than anything going forward does. Eliminating all of the results of that deadly devotion is fairly perfect.


That looks good on paper and it surely hurts them historically speaking, but IMO it doesn't cut it. All that does is change a few record books and add fodder to social media fan ranting. People who were involved in the games and people who watched them know who won the games.

I'm not pretending to have the answer mind you, I just feel that since life at Penn State should have been about more than football, the forthcoming penance should be as well.


I diverge because this isn't Jim Tressel losing wins.

This is a guy that stayed on, half dead, shitting himself on the side-lines, let a pedo live, did all that for those precious wins to get HIS NAME on top.

Removing that, combined with the inner-conflict, plus the future being different by necessity, I'm good.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:09 pm

Also, let's not forget state law's role in all this: http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/als- ... enn-state/

Ohio has open records.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:35 pm

I agree with you that there is no figure in the sport whose reputation would suffer more from vacating wins.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:46 pm

Via Calcaterra, Joe Posnanski's book on Paterno is coming out next month. His publisher moved up the date from June'13 to Aug'12.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/13/posnanski-and-paterno/#comments

I tend to pretty much agree with what Craig has to say. Shitty position for Pos to be in. I don't know how the hell this book can be written right now. This needs time and perspective. Lose lose.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby pup » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:51 pm

Anyone think JoePa will care if they vacate those wins?
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:58 pm

It's not about Joe Pa Pup, it's about how the community felt he earned and deserved those wins. They wanted that more than was anywhere near healthy. Now they see the cost of that schilling and have to lose what they schilled for. That's a price.

When you enable for nothing, well, that sucks.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:18 pm

JCoz wrote:What's tough for me is that everytime I've tried to respond to this thread this morning I delete the comment before posting because I cant seem to neatly cut into this and form any clear opinion on what I think should be done at PSU. I keep going down one path and stopped dead in my thoughts by a problem that doesn't square with a punishment or inconsistancy or hypocrisy.

This is a difficult scenario, and above all else I just hope as much of this as possible is handled in criminal court for those most directly involved. For this, more people need to go to jail than Sandusky.


BTW: I've know what was coming here for a good while and lived in this zone the entire time. The only thing I gave up was a half heads up of a convo to a PM. I fully agree for Coz here. I think I am comfortable with where I am now, but I'm not really, but I am....

Fuck.

Just don't nuke anything and be stupid.

And if people like me, you and him too are going through this, try to put yourself in the shoes of "actual HV person."

And I still do hold, if you want to blame this on a football being too powerful issue you cannot punish just PSU, you have to kill CFB. Because they are all this corrupt. Just because one guy was lying about tats while one was lying about rapes doesn't mean either of them weren't lying while being deified and that if the crimes were reversed the fan-bases would have acted any different.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby noles1 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:22 pm

Just heard a "2%" take from Bill James. If anyone gets a chance give some of his thoughts a look and listen.

For someone I respect quite a bit in baseball for his being a pioneer on the statistical analysis end, his venture out into this realm leaves me baffled the "conclusions" and mistrust of the evidence in front of him. Maddeningly hypocritical with nearly every deduction.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:26 pm

I still don't see much in your whole tat/rape thoughts here. Yeah lying is lying but exactly who were the victims of the tat lie, and I'm pretty sure they can pick up the pieces of their lives with no problems (I just don't see there being any victims there). Context is still strongly relevant with this.

This is where I tend to stand with Furls thoughts, that much of the aftermath & penalty is about the respect of the victims of an unequaled crime.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:34 pm

FUDU wrote:I still don't see much in your whole tat/rape thoughts here. Yeah lying is lying but exactly who were the victims of the tat lie, and I'm pretty sure they can pick up the pieces of their lives with no problems (I just don't see there being any victims there). Context is still strongly relevant with this.

This is where I tend to stand with Furls thoughts, that much of the aftermath & penalty is about the respect of the victims of an unequaled crime.


My point isn't the ambiguity between tats and raping kids, it is the ambiguity between how the fan-bases will always react. Come on dude, think a bit.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby noles1 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:40 pm

Probably agree with roughly 10% of his takes but enjoyed this latest Whitlock piece. Touches on the Posnaski book, as well. Hell even Reilly had a decent piece on the scandal, as well.

Truthfully when I saw the title and read the first paragraph I rolled my eyes but actually felt like he put a take together here that was useful to examine further.

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootbal ... -up-071212
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:47 pm

I know you're not comparing the crimes themselves, but your implying the punishments should relate regardless b/c of "institutional control" failures. The fact of the matter is tat gate was a blip on a radar scale, akin to 3' chop on Lake Erie. Doesn't make JT any less guilty of lying but there are not long term effects of that mess that cannot be overcome nor a procreation of something in his likeness (as in the case with Sandusky). Not to mention JT owned up to it (after getting caught) and faced (still faces) the administered consequences. JoPa while fired, could be argued to got off light in regards to the scandal, despite him losing his life.

IMO that is exactly one of the reasons Penn State needs to be singled out and dealt with in at least justifiably harsh way, b/c it was different and just might have spawned further acts of disgust.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, I think you've made some pretty reasonable points on this, I just see that one as coming out of left field.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:52 pm

FUDU wrote:I know you're not comparing the crimes themselves, but your implying the punishments should relate regardless b/c of "institutional control" failures. The fact of the matter is tat gate was a blip on a radar scale, akin to 3' chop on Lake Erie. Doesn't make JT any less guilty of lying but there are not long term effects of that mess that cannot be overcome nor a procreation of something in his likeness (as in the case with Sandusky). Not to mention JT owned up to it (after getting caught) and faced (still faces) the administered consequences. JoPa while fired, could be argued to got off light in regards to the scandal, despite him losing his life.

IMO that is exactly one of the reasons Penn State needs to be singled out and dealt with in at least justifiably harsh way, b/c it was different and just might have spawned further acts of disgust.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, I think you've made some pretty reasonable points on this, I just see that one as coming out of left field.


FUCKING FUDU, DO NOT MAKE ME YELL AT YOU, THINK.

your implying the punishments should relate regardless b/c of "institutional control" failures


^ is the last thing I am doing. I'm literally only trying to say that instead of a lack of institutional control (real back the child rapes, no matter how stupid that sounds) we are reaching a point where amateur sport is completely corrupt and a sport without control.

This falls back to my, if you want to make an example it won't matter, just cancel them all point. Do you honestly think that if PSU get's the death penalty and next year Curtis Grant get's 10K and a BJ from a Tranny that 55 people witness they are going to come forward now because PSU got spiced?
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:01 am

I agree CS are pretty much out of control (but doesn't that inherently start at the top, with institutional control). Plus your suggestion doesn't line up with your feelings on punishing all of PSU. Punish all of CFB, what about all the jobs and money at all the other universities etc. Lots of innocents in all those places as well.

Football is too big at all legit universities, and basketball is to big in the ACC and Big East. Everybody else still isn't in the same "don't ever go against the family" mentality to this extreme. With most others it revolves around money, this wasn't.

Now if by punish all of CFB you mean complete overhaul the system and start over with new policies etc I can agree. If your talking some kind of legit penalty outside of PSU then I just don't get it.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:17 am

FUDU wrote:I know you're not comparing the crimes themselves, but your implying the punishments should relate regardless b/c of "institutional control" failures. The fact of the matter is tat gate was a blip on a radar scale, akin to 3' chop on Lake Erie. Doesn't make JT any less guilty of lying but there are not long term effects of that mess that cannot be overcome nor a procreation of something in his likeness (as in the case with Sandusky). Not to mention JT owned up to it (after getting caught) and faced (still faces) the administered consequences. JoPa while fired, could be argued to got off light in regards to the scandal, despite him losing his life.

IMO that is exactly one of the reasons Penn State needs to be singled out and dealt with in at least justifiably harsh way, b/c it was different and just might have spawned further acts of disgust.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, I think you've made some pretty reasonable points on this, I just see that one as coming out of left field.


I think maybe it's that the culture of colege football nationwide has created the possibility for this to happen. For otherwise reasonable men to bury their heads in the sand to protect what we all have built up to be so important that we bestow upon these men unreasonable power and influence. The fact that this happened in HV instead of Columbus, Alabama, Baton Ruge, Ann Arbor as much a matter of luck than it is anything else. If JoePa and Sandusky's paths had led them to Lincoln instead of HV then the same thing would have happened but in a different location. It's the whole college footbal culture that creates the possibility. And it's the same culture that allowed tatgate and Miami.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:23 am

HOWEVER, I will also say this. There has to be a line somewhere. I have to believe that if Tress would turn his head about tats and shit like that, that doesn't mean he would turn his head for 15 years about an assistant raping little boys, no matter what the fucked up priorities of the college football culture. I dont think most coaches would. I do believe that. I have to believe that. I still have no idea why JoePa did turn his head on it.

No, that's not right either. It's pretty clear WHY he did it. But I still can't fathom it or really understand why it happened.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:35 am

FUDU wrote:I agree CS are pretty much out of control (but doesn't that inherently start at the top, with institutional control). Plus your suggestion doesn't line up with your feelings on punishing all of PSU. Punish all of CFB, what about all the jobs and money at all the other universities etc. Lots of innocents in all those places as well.

Football is too big at all legit universities, and basketball is to big in the ACC and Big East. Everybody else still isn't in the same "don't ever go against the family" mentality to this extreme. With most others it revolves around money, this wasn't.

Now if by punish all of CFB you mean complete overhaul the system and start over with new policies etc I can agree. If your talking some kind of legit penalty outside of PSU then I just don't get it.


Christ dude, my point is either nuke the cancer and kill it all or protect those who are innocent.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby furls » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:37 am

motherscratcher wrote:
FUDU wrote:I know you're not comparing the crimes themselves, but your implying the punishments should relate regardless b/c of "institutional control" failures. The fact of the matter is tat gate was a blip on a radar scale, akin to 3' chop on Lake Erie. Doesn't make JT any less guilty of lying but there are not long term effects of that mess that cannot be overcome nor a procreation of something in his likeness (as in the case with Sandusky). Not to mention JT owned up to it (after getting caught) and faced (still faces) the administered consequences. JoPa while fired, could be argued to got off light in regards to the scandal, despite him losing his life.

IMO that is exactly one of the reasons Penn State needs to be singled out and dealt with in at least justifiably harsh way, b/c it was different and just might have spawned further acts of disgust.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, I think you've made some pretty reasonable points on this, I just see that one as coming out of left field.


I think maybe it's that the culture of colege football nationwide has created the possibility for this to happen. For otherwise reasonable men to bury their heads in the sand to protect what we all have built up to be so important that we bestow upon these men unreasonable power and influence. The fact that this happened in HV instead of Columbus, Alabama, Baton Ruge, Ann Arbor as much a matter of luck than it is anything else. If JoePa and Sandusky's paths had led them to Lincoln instead of HV then the same thing would have happened but in a different location. It's the whole college footbal culture that creates the possibility. And it's the same culture that allowed tatgate and Miami.


CFB didn't create this, $$$ did. CFB is just the flowpath. I have been "championing" a one year hiatus from NCAAF for PSU in this thread, but to be honest, I really don't care what they do. Like CDT said, a year off will not unrape kids. All I can say is that there is no penalty that the NCAA can administer that will even come close to being adequate, therefore they should recuse themselves. IMO if PSU is about anything besides football and its $$ they should take a year off just to prove it to everyone else (including themselves).

In the end, they will probably wait to find out what the NCAA wants to do, then throw some self imposed sanctions in front of the NCAA investigation (if the NCAA is going to touch this). Then the NCAA will probably throw something on top of that. The media will talk about it for a week or two, then no one will care.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:29 am

Then what exactly are you suggesting by saying kill CFB, eye?
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby Spin » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:02 am

Why would the suspension of the football program bring an end to all of athletics??? I'm :bs:

My son is a student athlete at a local D3 school, and the football program damn sure does not support itself, much less anything else.

We've seen over and over that very few D1 football programs make money for the athletic departments, every other college loses money on football, by far their most expensive sport.

The women's volleyball team will still be jumping around in their form fitting shorts, and I will still be wishing BTN covered that instead of 5 year old football games between two schools who would struggle against decent mid-majors. :lame:
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:45 am

Did you just say that since your son's D3 school's football program doesn't support other athletics then PSU's football program doesn't either? Because that's what it sounded like.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:04 am

He also tried to call football, a sport with a dozeish games a year more expensive than baseball and basketball, sports where teams spend three plus months on the road.

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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby StewieG » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:09 am

That was an attempt to make e0y lose his shit, right?
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:06 pm

Also, considering the actual people that committed this crime were mostly non-football based THIS conversation makes more sense to me than any other: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr- ... ncaaf.html
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:20 pm

Spin wrote:Why would the suspension of the football program bring an end to all of athletics??? I'm :bs:

My son is a student athlete at a local D3 school, and the football program damn sure does not support itself, much less anything else.

We've seen over and over that very few D1 football programs make money for the athletic departments, every other college loses money on football, by far their most expensive sport.

The women's volleyball team will still be jumping around in their form fitting shorts, and I will still be wishing BTN covered that instead of 5 year old football games between two schools who would struggle against decent mid-majors. :lame:


Not sure you really understand how big time D1 college athletics is run. Don't know about Penn State, but it is documented that tOSU football takes in $3M PER HOME GAME. Half of the 36 tOSU varsity sports TAKE IN NO REVENUE AT ALL, and football and basketball are the only 2, that's 2 out of 36, to make a profit.

PSU football goes away, the entire athletic is under tremendous strain to keep afloat. Not even up for debate.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:26 pm

He's just going to answer some bullshit about DIII schools being fine and academics funding sports and other stupid shit. You answered it too much matt.
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Re: Sandusky

Unread postby Spin » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:53 pm

I know full well how D1 sports are paid for. In almost all cases, the football programs lose money. So how (in all but maybe a dozen programs) does a money losing football program cover the cost of the football program, let alone all the other god damn sports? Same with the D3 schools, they figure out how to pay for a bunch sports without millions of dollars in football revenue. Penn State can figure it out too.

And football is more expensive, you're paying out 85 scholarships, books, housing, each player requires a lot more equipment, higher premiums. More coaches. More staff. Then you have to transport all those people.

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