NBA Draft thread

[jb]

Stop. Making. Things. Up.

The Cavs spent the entire draft trying to get back into the lottery, the Zeller deal was, at best, a fall-back.

And if you take T-Rob you trade up for SOMEONE THAT PLAYS A DIFFERENT POSITION.

Dallas made that trade to shed cap money for their D-Will pursuit. They saved around 1.3 million last night thanks to the trade.

And this team is not good enough to pass on the best prospect on the board (by a good bit) in T-Rob to protect Tristan Fucking Thompson.

Pretend I'm not Pros and know that I hate the picks of TT & Waiters.

Sell me on the panic angle without brow beating me. Sadly, I see a conceieved plan that came to fruition. Why?

- Waiters meets the profile of Dunphy picks

- Grant says he did more due dilligence on this player than he ever did on any other player via Boeheim well in advance of all the post-season scouting stuff.

- A vet NBA draft pro and panic seems like a cartoonish charaterization that Gary Reents taught me a long, long time ago is a pretty fantastic scenario.

The only thing worse than panic induced suck is planful suck.

[jb]

[color=#800000]Well, the consensus is that Barnes can't create his own shot, and he kind of proved that in the NCAA tournament.

What did Waiters "prove" in the tourney?

[7foot3]

I don't know about Grant being caught by surprise. It feels like they were on Waiters all along, which is concerning because in that case how do you not trade down?

Because to trade down, it takes someone else to agree to trade up, and with MKG and Beal gone, I'm not seeing who teams were excited to trade up for. I'm not ecstatic with the pick, but I do think that we needed to take a shot at a higher upside guy. If Waiters is highest on Grant's board and no one was willing to give us anything to let us move down, then I guess you just take Waiters and wait for all the armchair-GMs who have no idea what offers were actually on the table to finally stop bitching.

[motherscratcher]

So you want me to believe at no point, with all the hours devoted to drafting and scouting, nobody even mentioned "what would we do if Beal and MKG are gone?". Not once?

Exactly. There is no way they hadn't discussed what they would do it MKG and Beal were gone. Some may not like the pick, but it wasn't a draft day panic move.

[motherscratcher]

I don't know about Grant being caught by surprise. It feels like they were on Waiters all along, which is concerning because in that case how do you not trade down?

Because to trade down, it takes someone else to agree to trade up, and with MKG and Beal gone, I'm not seeing who teams were excited to trade up for. I'm not ecstatic with the pick, but I do think that we needed to take a shot at a higher upside guy. If Waiters is highest on Grant's board and no one was willing to give us anything to let us move down, then I guess you just take Waiters and wait for all the armchair-GMs who have no idea what offers were actually on the table to finally stop bitching.

Agree with that.

[Orenthal]

Love the pick!

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Because to trade down, it takes someone else to agree to trade up, and with MKG and Beal gone, I'm not seeing who teams were excited to trade up for. I'm not ecstatic with the pick, but I do think that we needed to take a shot at a higher upside guy. If Waiters is highest on Grant's board and no one was willing to give us anything to let us move down, then I guess you just take Waiters and wait for all the armchair-GMs who have no idea what offers were actually on the table to finally stop bitching.

Yeah, I've had time to climb off that ledge. Lots of warning signs still around Waiters but I don't feel nearly as sucktastic as I did last night. Or as I do about Thompson.

[e0y2e3]

Because the facts don't read that way, at all JB.

1) How often does a team have a top five draft pick in (or ask them to be in) for their first workout the gawdamn day before the draft? I mean this something that typically happens maybe once every few years at most. The Cavs have now done this two years in a row. Two years in a row their pick has been leaked to certain media members because of this ridiculous fact the day of the draft

2) In June Waiters decided to not workout for anyone because he had a promise to go #19. If the Cavs had been obsessively following Waiters and Boheim around (as claimed in the PD) either Boeheim fucked his kid over by not advising strongly against sitting out workouts because top five teams were interested in him or the Cavs put in as much due-diligence on Waiters as everyone else.

3) The Cavs also called in Ross to workout the day before the draft, over a week after their last workout (of, you know, the real prospects). That show clear indicision leading up to literally draft day.

[e0y2e3]

So you want me to believe at no point, with all the hours devoted to drafting and scouting, nobody even mentioned "what would we do if Beal and MKG are gone?". Not once?

Exactly. There is no way they hadn't discussed what they would do it MKG and Beal were gone. Some may not like the pick, but it wasn't a draft day panic move.

Yes they had a plan. It was called try to get Beal or MKG for weeks and then establish a back-up plan where you reach for a SG of your preference.

Same as last year where the plan was "reach for a big that can jump high" if D-Will doesn't somehow fall.

[e0y2e3]

Also, Yahoo, I follow this shit obsessively and Waiters never had a top ten guarantee. His guarantee was from Phoenix (for fucks sake this was widely reported, by everyone everywhere for weeks). After the guarantee and without working out he somehow magically started climbing draft boards in a manner that is pretty much completely ridiculous. This is why Givony was going nuts yesterday about him getting all the way into the top five when literally the only thing to happen since his season ended was a guarantee to go #19.

[e0y2e3]

I don't like the way the draft played out at all and think that Grant was left flat footed when both Beal and MKG were gone. I really think our FO thought one of them would still be there at 4 and the draft went haywire on them when Charlotte took MKG instead of Robinson. I think Beal was their option 1, MKG was plan b and maybe there was no plan C.?

That said, Waiters was going number 7 to Golden State if he didn't go at 4 to the Cavs. That has been widely reported now and the speculation is that Golden State was the "top 10 guarantee" team. So even though I don't like the way the draft went let's not pretent the guy was a marginal top 20 pick.

I would have gone with Robinson if I were the Cavs at 4 but it seems that Waiters was not the huge stretch some are making him out to be or as big of a stretch at TT.

Also, the Warriors were shopping their pick obsessively yesterday, which really speaks highly against them making any guarantees.

[HoodooMan]

Yes they had a plan. It was called try to get Beal or MKG for weeks and then establish a back-up plan where you reach for a SG of your preference.

Same as last year where the plan was "reach for a big that can jump high" if D-Will doesn't somehow fall.

I think JB's right. It's worse than that. They don't think they're reaching.

All you've had to do to know who the Cavaliers would take at 4 the past two years is to read Hollinger's BS math geekery article 10 days before the draft.

Dion Waiters = highest rated wing! He was a 14.12! Beal & MKG were only 11.65 & 13.58 respectively! What a steal! Dion Waiters was #4 overall on his board.

Same BS with TT last year.

ETA: Last year's article was easier to find that I thought it would be. Tristan Thompson = highest rated big! He was a 16.21! Derrick Williams was only a 15.97! What a steal! (Also, he had TT at #3 overall on his board, one spot ahead of Jonas.)

[e0y2e3]

AND HOLY FUCKING CHRIST YAHOO, NOW BY SPEWING WHATEVER INCORRECT BULLSHIT YOU ARE SPEWING ABOUT GS YOU HAVE PROS STATING THAT IT IS FACT WHEN IT IS COMPLETELY AND 100% WRONG.

WAITERS NEVER HAD A TOP TEN PROMISE. NEVER. EVER. EVER. AND THE PHOENIX PROMISE WAS MADE IN FUCKING JUNE.

WHY DO PEOPLE PRETEND SHIT IS REAL THAT THEY ARE LITERALLY WRONG ON.

NOW PROS IS GOING TO TROLL WITH THAT FALSE INFORMATION FOR THE NEXT FUCKING DECADE.

I IMPLORE YOU IDIOTS TO GO WATCH THE FUCKING INTERVIEW AT THE COMBINE MEDIA EVENT WHERE GIVONY CALLS WAITERS OUT ABOUT PHOENIX.

[e0y2e3]

Also, I love how getting Zeller to move Andy back to PF all of the sudden has become the plan going into the draft when Andy was being shopped to everyone in the lottery last night according to again, every level of the media from Jason Lloyd to fucking Chad Ford.

You guys really stand as the perfect example of what a bunch of morons can accomplish when they draw opinions without actual facts to back them up.

[rk]

Just letting you know but your caps lock seems as though it may have been broken.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Because the facts don't read that way, at all JB.

There's two other ways you can read this:

a.) The Cavs had Waiters high, but did their due diligence on Barnes, Drummond, and Ross before deciding on him as the fallback if Beal or MKG didn't fall.

b.) Grant is Colonel Flagg, and it was all poker face and smokescreens right up to where he drops his hand before the last call.

I'm not a believer in Grant making panic moves. He's a Gilbert guy, he's the Gilbert guy in the wake of the Decision. He's going to swing for the fence rather than take the safe single.

[e0y2e3]

Ah, yeah, so instead Gilbert is the guy that goes into the off-season planning to not workout his guy until the very last second (if at all), because that is a pretty damn sound scouting technique.

I mean, in the history of the NBA draft pretty much no GM has been stupid enough to try that tactic, but our guy is a trailblazer!

[e0y2e3]

Oh, well fuck me, Windhorst spent the draft with Grant and he reports they had Waiters rated higher than Beal... LULZ

DooDoo is right.

[e0y2e3]

Also in this very informative Windhorst piece is the fact that Zeller wasn't "the man" and that the Cavs had a group of guys in the teens they had interest in (this, of course, in addition to the Cavs declaring they were taking a wing before the draft no matter what to protect TT).

And yes, DooDoo is right. Grant is drafting extensively on his advanced stats.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Ah, yeah, so instead Gilbert is the guy that goes into the off-season planning to not workout his guy until the very last second (if at all), because that is a pretty damn sound scouting technique.

I mean, in the history of the NBA draft pretty much no GM has been stupid enough to try that tactic, but our guy is a trailblazer!

You keep bringing this up as if it invalidates everything else. Waiters wasn't going to workout for anyone. Why would he have to? All he had to do was wait for Barnes and Drummond to crater and suddenly he and the Big Sky MVP are top 6 picks.

EDIT: Plus, stats. Moneyball, bitches!

[e0y2e3]

That is a load of horseshit. Players that sit out the entire off-season after being rated in the teens by pretty much everyone don't ever magically fly up to being top five picks without working out. Again, what the Cavs are doing with these workouts and this last day approach is exctremely stupid and literally unheard of previously. I mean, I'm really glad Byron Scott loves the pick with all of that playing off the bench film he had to watch LULZ.

Unless you have a GM (as DooDoo first pointed out and Windhorst confirms) that is drafting off of some silly advanced stat system.

[jb]

Love the pick!

Compared to the SCOTUS ruling, right? That's the duisclaimer?

[e0y2e3]

Well, everyone should feel good about Gilbert hiring a guy because he didn't require final control over basketball ops and because he was running a draft system that relied extensively on advanced stats and had produced roughly two quality NBA players in 8 years (and that number if largely dependant on how you feel about Josh Smith, a total of one could be argued).

Especially in situations where you can evaluate Tristan Thompson working running around the court by himself and jumping high or you don't even bother to workout the other guy because your assistant GM saw three practices and a couple of games (exact total per Windhorst).

[StewieG]

Fuckups like this and the Tristan Thompson disaster from last year are what happen when you only pay attention to numbers instead of doing actual scouting. Coulda and shoulda had Vala and Robinson to go along with Irving. Instead, fucking Grant delivers us a guy who might one day develop into a decent 6th man, and a taller DaJuan Wagner. Fucking fantastic.

[YahooFanChicago]

Eo, you watch this shit a lot more than I do that is a fact...however, there are a lot of other people out there that get paid to watch this shit and have professional networks with the GM's and agents and they disagree with you.

They were talking about GS being caught off guard with the Cavs taking Waiters on Mike and Mike this morning since that is who they were going to draft and Wadle and Silvy on ESPN radio in Chicago were saying the same thing earlier today. (insert comments about ESPN being crap here). There were mocks with GS taking him as well (insert comments about mocks being useless here).

My only point is the guy wasn't a marginal top 20 selection. He's not who I would have taken but those saying he was marginally top 20 are probably not right.

[jb]

Oh, well fuck me, Windhorst spent the draft with Grant and he reports they had Waiters rated higher than Beal... LULZ

DooDoo is right.

You got the link to the sweaty fat kid's report?

[e0y2e3]

Yahoo, I can drop about 400 different sources on you right now that back me up.

You have one of the terrible ESPN pieces of shit dropping a load of shit that doesn't even agree with their draft guy (Ford, who was also the only guy they had breaking picks early last night).

Stop with the GS non-sense. If he magically lept up GS board like he did Cleveland's that is fine and dandy. He. Was. Never. Promised. By. Anyone. But. Phoenix. And. Then. He. Flew. Up. Draft. Boards. By. Sitting. On. His. Ass.

And GS getting caught off-guard is to be expected when no one on earth had Waiters going to Cleveland.

BTW: a promise at pick 13 isn't marginally top twenty so you can put whatever in whoever's mouth you want.

Just. Stop.

[e0y2e3]

Oh, well fuck me, Windhorst spent the draft with Grant and he reports they had Waiters rated higher than Beal... LULZ

DooDoo is right.

You got the link to the sweaty fat kid's report?

I don't link things in forums where people just make things up. Try ESPN.com.

[jb]

Fuckups like this and the Tristan Thompson disaster from last year are what happen when you only pay attention to numbers instead of doing actual scouting. Coulda and shoulda had Vala and Robinson to go along with Irving.

F U Stewie.

I'm eating lunch.

[Orenthal]

Love the pick!

Compared to the SCOTUS ruling, right? That's the duisclaimer?

Oddly I couldn't get myself worked up about either. A Cleveland apathy has washed over me...

[e0y2e3]

Although I am thrilled to learn that Pros master plan where the Cavs had the Zeller tried lined up before that draft is the single most fabricated load of shit ever posted here.

[jb]

Well, everyone should feel good about Gilbert hiring a guy because he didn't require final control over basketball ops and because he was running a draft system that relied extensively on advanced stats and had produced roughly two quality NBA players in 8 years (and that number if largely dependant on how you feel about Josh Smith, a total of one could be argued).

Especially in situations where you can evaluate Tristan Thompson working running around the court by himself and jumping high or you don't even bother to workout the other guy because your assistant GM saw three practices and a couple of games (exact total per Windhorst).

Dude, that's the point. Not about you being right or werong.

Again, I'd feel better if Dunphy HAD pannicced.

He carefully set up a system that deliberately and thoroughly orchestrated and prepared for draft day and he and that system MEANT to give us TT and Waiters with B2B 4th overalls.

Just move the GD franchise.

[YahooFanChicago]

MoScratch, you don't think Grant and Co were caught unprepared and flat footed??? Here is why I disagree, the reports I heard (on here and elsewhere) are that the Cavs had never even talked to Waiters before they drafted him. He hadn't worked-out for them either. Doesn't that seem a bit strange to you if they were really planning on making that selection?

Of course they are saying now that they did all of this due diligence on him but if they had wouldn't they have at least met the guy?

[jb]

MoScratch, you don't think Grant and Co were caught unprepared and flat footed??? Here is why I disagree, the reports I heard (on here and elsewhere) are that the Cavs had never even talked to Waiters before they drafted him. He hadn't worked-out for them either. Doesn't that seem a bit strange to you if they were really planning on making that selection?

Of course they are saying now that they did all of this due diligence on him but if they had wouldn't they have at least met the guy?

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2012/06/its_a_wild_night_for_cleveland.html

Don't jump up and down about this being a MSB piece. These are quotes:

"We did an enormous amount of research, maybe more than we've ever done, with Dion," Grant said. "Ultimately, we had to make a decision what was best for us and best for this organization. With all the information, we felt very comfortable.

he didn't visit Cleveland because Phil's Col Flagg.

[andrew6586]

So you want me to believe at no point, with all the hours devoted to drafting and scouting, nobody even mentioned "what would we do if Beal and MKG are gone?". Not once?

It's not that I think they didn't see it coming, but rather that Grant didn't think it would happen. Of course he thought of it, but didn't think it was as likely to happen as another scenario. I'm sure he had a plan made up if it did happen that went something like this: Davis, MKG and Beal are gone. Trade down a couple spots and take Waiters. I definitely think they were desperate to trade down as evidenced by the fact that they used 4:30 to get their pick in. Nobody was interested in a trade.

[motherscratcher]

So you want me to believe at no point, with all the hours devoted to drafting and scouting, nobody even mentioned "what would we do if Beal and MKG are gone?". Not once?

Exactly. There is no way they hadn't discussed what they would do it MKG and Beal were gone. Some may not like the pick, but it wasn't a draft day panic move.

Yes they had a plan. It was called try to get Beal or MKG for weeks and then establish a back-up plan where you reach for a SG of your preference.

Same as last year where the plan was "reach for a big that can jump high" if D-Will doesn't somehow fall.

I didn't say I thought it was a good plan.

[Orenthal]

Makes me laugh how last year it was all about sitting with guys and getting a feel for their character. Emphasis on talking and seeing and getting to know them while they were here...

Hoodoo has it nailed. Guy Just picks Hollinger's highest rated, and has spews a bunch or corporate ism's. Called stuffed shirt from day one, just not as hyperbolic as e0.

There is my outrage.

[YahooFanChicago]

EO..but Chad Ford was actually one of the analysts that had Waiters going to GS....here is an article from the bleacher report discussing this...

2012 NBA Mock Draft: Dion Waiters to Golden State Warriors at No. 7

By Grant Hughes(Contributor)

ESPN’s preeminent NBA draft pundit, Chad Ford, has former Syracuse shooting guard Dion Waiters headed to the Golden State Warriors at pick No. 7.

Say it ain’t so, Chad.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1230 ... rs-at-no-7

I am not an ESPN insider so I don't know if Fords last mock had GS selecting Waiters or not but at least one of his mocks did and the final draft express mock and some others did.

BTW, you weren't the one saying Waiters was a marginal top 20 pick but at least one other person on here was saying that.

[motherscratcher]

MoScratch, you don't think Grant and Co were caught unprepared and flat footed??? Here is why I disagree, the reports I heard (on here and elsewhere) are that the Cavs had never even talked to Waiters before they drafted him. He hadn't worked-out for them either. Doesn't that seem a bit strange to you if they were really planning on making that selection?

Of course they are saying now that they did all of this due diligence on him but if they had wouldn't they have at least met the guy?

So, what you're saying is that the Cavs draft board was this:

1. Davis
2. Beal
3. MKG
4. Nobody. Not worth even considering.

[YahooFanChicago]

JB, i know the Cavs FO is saying that they did a shitbox full of due diligence on Waiters. Of course they are going to say that and I am sure they had their people look at him and that they have a ton of film on him like they do for all of the other guys.

It just doesn't seem to add up..they never met the guy and they didn't work him out (due to the other team guarantee). Aren't those 2 things some pretty basic and essential pieces of due diligence???

[jb]

Oh, well fuck me, Windhorst spent the draft with Grant and he reports they had Waiters rated higher than Beal... LULZ

DooDoo is right.

You got the link to the sweaty fat kid's report?

I don't link things in forums where people just make things up. Try ESPN.com.

Um, like convincing themselves taht this was a panic move? ;-)

Dude, if you believe this link this was all part of a plan.

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/8111377/2012-nba-draft-cleveland-cavaliers-scenes

[jb]

..they never met the guy and they didn't work him out (due to the other team guarantee).

And yetthey did. Justnot on the schedule in your mind.

Read Windy.

This BS is 100% Shapiro-esque.

God Ilove Tom heckert.

[YahooFanChicago]

MoScratch, you don't think Grant and Co were caught unprepared and flat footed??? Here is why I disagree, the reports I heard (on here and elsewhere) are that the Cavs had never even talked to Waiters before they drafted him. He hadn't worked-out for them either. Doesn't that seem a bit strange to you if they were really planning on making that selection?

Of course they are saying now that they did all of this due diligence on him but if they had wouldn't they have at least met the guy?

So, what you're saying is that the Cavs draft board was this:

1. Davis
2. Beal
3. MKG
4. Nobody. Not worth even considering.

Way to not answer the question. nice.

Of course none of us on here know what their plan and board was but I would guess that plan C was trade down and they didn't think it would come to that.

I can't believe they planned and intended to draft a player they had never ever met or talked to before or worked out. If that was their plan they suck at their job.

[YahooFanChicago]

I just read the windy article linked by jb so i will just shut up now.

[rk]

http://espn.go.com/nba/draft2012/story/_/id/8111377/2012-nba-draft-cleveland-cavaliers-scenes

In my head the 'Internet' is this thread. Just for humor.

Meanwhile, Grant scrolled through the Internet, catching up on everything else that had happened.

That article does not comfort me one iota. He admits he was zoned in on a wing player regardless of overall talent at 4 and that they were seriously considering him along with MKG and Beal - which is terrifying when you look at their body of work compared with his.

I also don't buy it all. Why if they had MKG and Waiters basically equal then why bother trying to trade up to 2 at all? Why even bother talking with the Bobcats? Either you were doing it because you had MKG rated a lot higher than Waiters or you have Beal rated that much higher. Otherwise you're just selling BS.

Also Windy on the C-Town beat for ESPN makes me wonder if he is heading back to C-Town media scene.

[TouchEmAllTime]

T-Wolves BayBee.

Especially if the Brandon Roy is alive and may sign there rumors are true.

Budinger for 18 was an ok move I guess? If there was a year to not have any picks, I would think it would be this year.

[StewieG]

Here's how the future of the Cavs will look:

12-13: Another bad year. TT shows he still hasn't developed any skills. Waiters can score, and comes up with a high number of steals, but that's mostly because he spends so much time cheating off his man. He gives up a ton of easy looks. Varajao (who they still haven't traded) does Andy things for 3 months. Just as trade talks for him start to heat up, he gets injured again, and comes back in late March. Zeller does OK off the bench, averaging 6 and 4 in about 20 minutes a night. Cavs end up with the 5th worst record, but get lucky in the lottery and get the #3 overall pick. On draft day, they pass on a very good SG prospect to take a SF who has "great advanced stat numbers" about 8 picks too early. Stewie has to be restrained from driving up to Independence and strangling Chris Grant. In round 2, they take some foreign player who will likely never play here. Byron Scott is fired by Grant, attempting to save his job.

13-14: The Cavs once again disappoint. TT improves his shooting numbers to 45% from the floor and 55% from the line. Waiters averages 16 points on 20 shots a night, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1.5 steals and 3.5 TO's. Cavs finish with 6th worst record, and pick 6th. They finally don't reach, because there's nobody worth reaching for. They take a "meh" prospect who projects as a decent 7th or 8th man. They celebrate Kyrie's impending free agency by overpaying for a couple of players who are, at best, decent.

14-15: Cavs settle into the 8th seed, and are quickly swept by the Heat. Kyrie leaves in free agency. Grant tries to salvage his mistake by signing TT to a 5 year, $35M contract despite TT averaging 9 points, 8 rebounds, 45% FG, 62% FT, 1 block. Cavs regress back to the 7th worst record. Grant is fired, finally.

You know this his how it's going to go.

[e0y2e3]

Yahoo, you really are struggling to wrap your freaking head around this.

1) a player being at a position in a mock-draft or the intended target does not mean that player was guaranteed anything

2) GS HATED everything available at the 7th spot and was trying to trade the pick for days. That alone means they didn't (again, look at the words you used) GUARANTEE Waiters anything.

3) For the 200th time, Phoenix was the gawd damn guarantee, per EVERYONE.

[e0y2e3]

T-Wolves BayBee.

Especially if the Brandon Roy is alive and may sign there rumors are true.

Budinger for 18 was an ok move I guess? If there was a year to not have any picks, I would think it would be this year.

If nothing else it lets them get rid of Supercool, who went from kinda promising heading into last year to holy fuck he's even more mental than ever!

[Cerebral_DownTime]