NBA Draft thread

[pup]

I could give two shits about the draft, again, stay out of fucking situations you don't understand.

As long as Dan Gilbert owns the Cavs they exist for me to laugh at and they prove it time and time again.

I'll keep going all night

Yet people hating the Indians because of Dolan means the team should leave town.

[e0y2e3]

If Andy isn't traded this summer Grant deserves to lose his job, more so than for anything else he has ever done.

[e0y2e3]

I could give two shits about the draft, again, stay out of fucking situations you don't understand.

As long as Dan Gilbert owns the Cavs they exist for me to laugh at and they prove it time and time again.

I'll keep going all night

Yet people hating the Indians because of Dolan means the team should leave town.

When the entire town turns on them to waive their lips about awesome Dan Gilbert (who is Dan Snyder) and worship the worst franchise in existence? Yep.

Not to mention if I lived in town I'd go to games just to watch games, same way I do here.

[Gradysmanldy]

....I tend to agree, but that means Andy needs to GTFO for a yoot with upside, or a pick in next years draft. He and TT have similar skill sets, and TT needs the playing time. Either pick up a free agent and get on with the 8th see purgatory bullshit, or swap andy.

[e0y2e3]

The Cavs weren't desperately trying to trade back into the lottery because they drafted Waiters just so they could suck more than if they took someone good.

No matter what the Cavs do they are going to suck next year, it wasn't involved in draft strategy at all.

You had your standard Chris Grant draft where he took a huge project only after freaking out right before the draft.

[RC]

Cavs take Dion Waiters at 4 and Tyler Zeller at 17 and lose both second rounders.......Golden State takes Harrison Barnes at 7 and Festus Ezeli at 30 and didn't lose any 2nd rounders.

I think I would rather have Golden State's draft at this point.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I could give two shits about the draft, again, stay out of fucking situations you don't understand.

As long as Dan Gilbert owns the Cavs they exist for me to laugh at and they prove it time and time again.

I'll keep going all night

[e0y2e3]

Also worth noting, this is the second year in a row the Cavs have taken a player that wasn't even rated in the lottery when actual basketball games were being played.

[e0y2e3]

Not gonna lie CDT, for a second I thought Kyrie would make it impossible for me to laugh at Gilbert running this team into the ground, but he's managed to overcome even that.

[RC]

So for Tyler Zeller we could have had PJ3, Doron Lamb and Quincy Miller.

I need another beer.

But hey we got Dion Waiters.......

[e0y2e3]

To be fair, I don't know if a team like Cleveland could have let PJIII take care of his knee the way it needs to be taken care of. OKC is really the perfect spot for him. Especially because if he does develop over the next two years OKC gets huge flexibility with Ibaka.

[e0y2e3]

Also, in a weird turn, the Cavs actually still ended up taking the 27 year old center, who is now going to Dallas.

[RC]

True on the PJ3 thing but at this point we need to take some talent.

I don't usually post much on here but I'm lurking everyday and watch basketball just about every day (college and pro) and watching what the Cavs have done tonight makes me sick.

Not taking Jonas Vala is really biting us in the ass. Taking TT has been a disaster.

We could be looking at this lineup:
C - Vala
PF - Thomas Robinson
SF - Alonzo Gee
SG - Doron Lamb
PG - Kyrie Irving

Not to mention who we took at 24 and 33.

I'm pissed off.

Oh and with Sideshow Bob and PJ3 on the bench

[e0y2e3]

Yep. This draft starts and ends with the TT pick.

[Spin]

David Magley is saying "What the fuck???"

[jfiling]

I approve of this one. Would have preferred a better scorer at 4, but that's a better big man than I expected.

Better than who? Call your shot on this pick.

[OldDawg]

And what we are really doing is screwing last year's #1 pick.
After watching this draft, you know Kyrie is already asking his agent when he becomes a free agent. And Gilbert will have his comic sans feelings hurt again.

I just can't believe how completely inept these people are that are getting paid lots of money to make these decisions. I mean we could have put TCF posters names in a hat and drew a random name to be GM who would have had better drafts the last two years than GilGrant had. And I am being frickin serious.

Its like Grants goal in life is to try to hit the jackpot with the sleeper of the draft every year and act like he's a genius finding a player no one was in on. That'll show everyone. Hey Grant, there's a freaking reason no one else is in on them.

[motherscratcher]

WTF is taking them so long to announce the trade with GS?

[jb]

So like this icing thing.

Can someone explain it to me? I have the feeling I need to understand it this winter.

Nahh. Can't do it. Just time to pretend the Cavs don't exist anymore.

I think this one just sent me back to the Paxson/Lucas/Davis era.

May as well go back to grad school...

[e0y2e3]

T-Wolves BayBee.

Especially if the Brandon Roy is alive and may sign there rumors are true.

[jb]

T-Wolves BayBee.

Especially if the Brandon Roy is alive and may sign there rumors are true.

Beats the Peace Corps.

[jb]

And what we are really doing is screwing last year's #1 pick.
After watching this draft, you know Kyrie is already asking his agent when he becomes a free agent. And Gilbert will have his comic sans feelings hurt again.

I just can't believe how completely inept these people are that are getting paid lots of money to make these decisions. I mean we could have put TCF posters names in a hat and drew a random name to be GM who would have had better drafts the last two years than GilGrant had. And I am being frickin serious.

Its like Grants goal in life is to try to hit the jackpot with the sleeper of the draft every year and act like he's a genius finding a player no one was in on. That'll show everyone. Hey Grant, there's a freaking reason no one else is in on them.

Don't blame me.

I hated the Skyenga pick and people told me I was an idiot.

[e0y2e3]

T-Wolves BayBee.

Especially if the Brandon Roy is alive and may sign there rumors are true.

Beats the Peace Corps.

My brother just went to Ethiopia for the Peace Corp, hater.

And the Bucks are going to be super fun next year too. Like super-duper fun (and hopefully with 100% less Drew Gooden).

[e0y2e3]

CAVS BETTER GET BUFORD AS A FA!!!

HE'S A GAMER!!!!!

[OldDawg]

CAVS BETTER GET BUFORD AS A FA!!!

HE'S A GAMER!!!!!

I hope so too.

Jay Bilas just singled out the Cavs as the "winner" of this draft. He liked Dion and the Zeller deal. Huh

Said DWate (DWade) could contend for rookie of the year.

[Triple-S]

Not sure what to think.

Eeyore hated it, so that's a bad sign. Generally I trust him with the NBA.

Whatever. Go Cavs I guess.

[dmiles]

So the kid is showcasing these two weeks, and we finished at 5:30 in Greensboro area and had to beeline for ATL as we have a week's worth of games in Georgia. So I was ill-prepared I'll admit. A bit pre-occupied so I didn't think ahead. I heard some local radio talking about the draft, and thought shit, I need to get the draft on. I fire up the Tune-In Radio Pro on the android and the only damn thing I could think to pull up was ESPN 850. FML. 4 hours of Reghi and the crew. My own fucking fault for not thinking ahead of time. The Barnes thing Reghi said was a solid source who was a personnel guy for a western conference team. A lot of good that was.

Anyway the only nugget out of this painful drive was Dan Dakich checking in and he absolutely loved the Waiters pick and the Zeller trade. Not even sure why I should give a shit about what he has to say, but his big thing was he thinks the guys is just a player. Wasn't too worried about the lack of consistency outside or somewhat specious stats in all of his big games this season. Said NBA is 82 games not 7 big games or whatever. No real insight at all.

[OldDawg]

M Leonard from Illinois > T Zeller from UNC?

[Prosecutor]

Jay Bilas just singled out the Cavs as the "winner" of this draft. He liked Dion and the Zeller deal. Huh

Said DWate (DWade) could contend for rookie of the year.

According to the PD:

Grant had questions, too. But with close friends on the coaching staffs at Syracuse and North Carolina, he and his staff did months of extensive research on the players, especially Waiters, who had a tough upbringing in Philadelphia and reportedly clashed with Syracuse coach Jim Boeheim.

"We did an enormous amount of research, maybe more than we've ever done, with Dion," Grant said. "Ultimately, we had to make a decision what was best for us and best for this organization. With all the information, we felt very comfortable.

Doesn't sound like a last minute panic pick to me. In Grant's interview he said they watched Syracuse practices and had a chance to see Waiters play man-to-man defense. Thought he was the best defender on the team. So no private workout, but they did their homework.

By the way, even though he clashed with Boeheim as a freshman, it apparently didn't stop Jimmy from giving him the thumbs up.

FWIW, Chad Ford had Waiters ranked higher than Barnes. And like Eeyore pointed out, the Cavs have had Barnes under the microscope for two years as they were strongly considering him for last year's #4 pick before he pulled out. They also worked him out this year with Beal. And passed on him.

All in all, things didn't go the Cavs way last night. Ideally Charlotte takes Robinson at #2 and Sacramento or somebody trades up to #3 for MKG, with Beal dropping to the Cavs. That wasn't going to happen, so the Cavs tried to trade up to #2 for Beal. When that fell through they ended up with Waiters, the consolation prize.

Now they have the 1, 4, 4, and 17 picks from the last two drafts plus Gee and Andy, assuming they get Gee signed. Should be an interesting team to watch over the next couple of years.

[jb]

T-Wolves BayBee.

Especially if the Brandon Roy is alive and may sign there rumors are true.

Beats the Peace Corps.

My brother just went to Ethiopia for the Peace Corp, hater.

You may be an east coast intellectual elite smarty, but you are ignorant of the classics.

[jb]

Now they have the 1, 4, 4, and 17 picks from the last two drafts plus Gee and Andy, assuming they get Gee signed. Should be an interesting team to watch over the next couple of years.

Send me the Spark Notes from the .300 winning percentage, brah.

It gonna be more interesting to watch the snow get dirty.

The one point I will cede is that this wasn't a knee jerk or panic move. I,too, believe it was calculated. Part of me feels even more depressed by that outlook. Dunphy really is a complete and utter incompetent. So smart he's a moron.


Skyenga
Manny Harris as developmental prospect > Danny Green
TT
Waiters

The pattern is now undeniable. Perceived athleticism over any developed basketball skills, overreaching psychoanalysis, complete & utter disregard for on court accomplishments, Colonel Flagg scouting philosophy = bat shit crazy picks.

[e0y2e3]

Pros you fucking shill dipshit, WHEN YOU CALL THE KID THE DAY BEFORE THE DRAFT TO ASK HIM TO WORKOUT IT IS A LAST MINUTE PANIC MOVE.

And when the kid doesn't workout for any NBA teams because he has a promise at #19 the kid obviously doesn't think he's going #4 or "man, the Cavs were at so many practices it really means I could go top five."

One of these days, when Grant takes his dick out of your throat, you'll actually get enough oxygen to know WTF is going on.

[OldDawg]

Pros you fucking shill dipshit, WHEN YOU CALL THE KID THE DAY BEFORE THE DRAFT TO ASK HIM TO WORKOUT IT IS A LAST MINUTE PANIC MOVE.

And when the kid doesn't workout for any NBA teams because he has a promise at #19 the kid obviously doesn't think he's going #4 or "man, the Cavs were at so many practices it really means I could go top five."

One of these days, when Grant takes his dick out of your throat, you'll actually get enough oxygen to know WTF is going on.

From his SI bio again:

Waiters, though, appears to have the size and aggressiveness to defend most guards, and overall he's an outstanding athlete and scorer who could land among the first 20 selections.

I guess #4 is in the top 20 selections. Cavs suck.

I wouldn't take him just for the fact he was a punk by not going to the combine or working out with the Cavs. And we reach for the guy.

Freaking Christmas morning for Waiters today. Christmas morning.

[e0y2e3]

It goes back way further than that JB.

Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, TT, Hickson, Skyenga, TT, Waiters.

Truthfully the only two on-the court products he has taken early were such obvious picks FUDU could have made them, in Horford and Kyrie.

[Gradysmanldy]

I approve of this one. Would have preferred a better scorer at 4, but that's a better big man than I expected.

Better than who? Call your shot on this pick.

I guess if you're OBLIGATED to stay at 4, i'd take Barnes or Ross. Ross has the length and the better body of work, Barnes has the higher upside. Everything is in a vacuum and hindsight is 20/20 though.

Also wouldn't have been upset with them taking T-Rob, and then grabbing the guard help later in the draft.

At the end of the day, I wanted SOMEONE who can put the ball in the basket and create his own shot next to Kyrie, and i'm not 100% sure Waiters ISNT that guy.....but if he sucks, Grant should be fired. TT combined with Waiters will BURY Grant if they are both bums. Big risk there.

(and this isn't designed to get Pros and the other TT lovers out in force; I think TT will be a serviceable rotational big....which is NOT what you want with 4 overall, anymore than a 6th man off the bench with scoring upside)

[jb]

It goes back way further than that JB.

Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, TT, Hickson, Skyenga, TT, Waiters.

Truthfully the only two on-the court products he has taken early were such obvious picks FUDU could have made them, in Horford and Kyrie.

I bet he has all the "isms" memorized and can expound on them by heart, though. So he's got that going for him, which is nice.

[Hikohadon]

CAVS BETTER GET BUFORD AS A FA!!!

HE'S A GAMER!!!!!

I hope so too.

Jay Bilas just singled out the Cavs as the "winner" of this draft. He liked Dion and the Zeller deal. Huh

Said DWate (DWade) could contend for rookie of the year.

I don't know anything about any of this stuff except that Jay Bilas is a tool.

[rebelwithoutaclue]

T-Wolves BayBee.

Especially if the Brandon Roy is alive and may sign there rumors are true.

Oh, I thought you meant the Cavs are the new T-Wolves (pre-Love/Rubio) because Chris Grant is the new David Kahn.

[Prosecutor]

I approve of this one. Would have preferred a better scorer at 4, but that's a better big man than I expected.

Better than who? Call your shot on this pick.

I guess if you're OBLIGATED to stay at 4, i'd take Barnes or Ross. Ross has the length and the better body of work, Barnes has the higher upside. Everything is in a vacuum and hindsight is 20/20 though.

Ross plays the same position as Waiters and went #8. So you prefer the taller guy with better numbers over the higher upside guy. OK, that's your preference. Everybody's got an opinion.

Also wouldn't have been upset with them taking T-Rob, and then grabbing the guard help later in the draft.

I'm pretty sure the Cavs had the Zeller deal lined up before the draft; it was just a matter of Z being there for Dallas. If the Cavs expected to end up with Z, that leaves them with Andy and TT at power forward, and picking Robinson at #4 would make no sense. Unless they also had a deal for Andy worked out, which they did not.

At the end of the day, I wanted SOMEONE who can put the ball in the basket and create his own shot next to Kyrie, and i'm not 100% sure Waiters ISNT that guy.....but if he sucks, Grant should be fired. TT combined with Waiters will BURY Grant if they are both bums. Big risk there.

Well, the consensus is that Barnes can't create his own shot, and he kind of proved that in the NCAA tournament. So eliminate Barnes, eliminate Robinson, and it comes down to Waiters or Ross, right? With the trade for Z you also eliminate Drummond, assuming the Cavs even considered him at #4, and now you're down to Rivers at #10.

Once MKG and Beal were off the board and with a deal for Zeller lined up, it came down to Barnes or Waiters at #4. The Cavs had Barnes under a microscope since before he pulled out of last year's draft. They had him in for a private workout and had him play against Bradley Beal. They passed. That tells me one thing - they weren't sold on him. And why should they be? The guy disappeared on the big stage. When his team lost their starting PG and needed Barnes to rise to the occasion and step up his game, he went the opposite direction. Is that who you want at #4?

I love his outside shot and that 38" vertical and all. But where's the toughness and competitiveness in the face of adversity? Grant made a point of talking about how Waiters has overcome adversity in his personal life (single Mom, four different high schools) and basketball (clash with Boeheim, and asked to come off the bench despite being the team's best player).

Maybe Barnes or Ross turns out to be the better pro, but as of now I have no problem with the pick, especially when combined with the Zeller trade. I just wish Beal would have fallen to #4.

(and this isn't designed to get Pros and the other TT lovers out in force; I think TT will be a serviceable rotational big....which is NOT what you want with 4 overall, anymore than a 6th man off the bench with scoring upside)

I agree TT will be a servicable rotational big. By the time Andy leaves in two years TT may have developed into a pretty decent PF. I just happen to believe that athletic talent + work ethic + time/experience + competent coaching usually adds up to something worthwhile. Yeah, the Cavs could have screwed up by passing on Vala, so we'll just have to follow that one.

[e0y2e3]

Stop. Making. Things. Up.

The Cavs spent the entire draft trying to get back into the lottery, the Zeller deal was, at best, a fall-back.

And if you take T-Rob you trade up for SOMEONE THAT PLAYS A DIFFERENT POSITION.

Dallas made that trade to shed cap money for their D-Will pursuit. They saved around 1.3 million last night thanks to the trade.

And this team is not good enough to pass on the best prospect on the board (by a good bit) in T-Rob to protect Tristan Fucking Thompson.

[Spin]

They're saying Waiters butted heads with the HC, the HC liked to play seniors, and that he "came into Syracuse as a bully and left as a man." So that's why we never saw him.

I like the bully part, I hope he still has some of that. This teams needs someone who will get pissed off once in awhile and give back what we're taking.

But I'm still having flashbacks of Puke Jackson and Lasagna Flop...

[Kingpin74]

Anyone defending this front office is delusional. Even putting aside how good Thompson and Waiters will ultimately be (which is, um, questionable), the way they've screwed up the value component of the last two drafts is inexcusable. They've done the equivalent of trading down 15 spots in exchange for NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I find it very hard to believe that there was no value available to move down with some good maneuvering. And I find it even harder to believe that Thompson and Waiters were so good that it wasn't worth the risk to take the highest value guy available (Valanciunas last year and Robinson this year) and negotiate afterwards. And worst (best) case? You freaking keep the guy. This team is a blank canvas of suck, who cares. You can find a spot for him. Chris Grant should thank his freaking lucky stars that a 2.9% chance somehow came up (which is why he shouldn't be given too much credit for that trade) last year or else we'd be building around Thompson and Jimmer Fredette. And I haven't watched Zeller a ton, but I'm thinking we're not in much of a position to be trading away two cheap salaried picks in a deep draft. Lord knows this front office needs more bullets in its gun.

And from a basketball angle, just awful. It's all been said. Do they not realize that 4th overall picks are supposed to be cornerstones of your franchise?

[YahooFanChicago]

I don't like the way the draft played out at all and think that Grant was left flat footed when both Beal and MKG were gone. I really think our FO thought one of them would still be there at 4 and the draft went haywire on them when Charlotte took MKG instead of Robinson. I think Beal was their option 1, MKG was plan b and maybe there was no plan C.?

That said, Waiters was going number 7 to Golden State if he didn't go at 4 to the Cavs. That has been widely reported now and the speculation is that Golden State was the "top 10 guarantee" team. So even though I don't like the way the draft went let's not pretent the guy was a marginal top 20 pick.

I would have gone with Robinson if I were the Cavs at 4 but it seems that Waiters was not the huge stretch some are making him out to be or as big of a stretch at TT.

[andrew6586]

I think that the guy the Cavs wanted got drafted in front of the Cavs two years in a row (Kanter and Beal) and the FO got stuck. They panicked and reached two years in a row. JMO.

[motherscratcher]

I don't know about Grant being caught by surprise. It feels like they were on Waiters all along, which is concerning because in that case how do you not trade down?

The alternative is that Grant was taken completely off guard when Beal and MKG were gone. I mean, how can that possibly happen? even if you thought Charlotte like TR, it's not like MKG was completely out of left field or anything. Hell, that was the assumption immediately on lotto night and it's been talked about as a possibility for a month. If Grant truly didn't have a plan for Beal and MKG being off the board...wow. It's too ridiculous to thnk that even for the most incompetent GM.

[andrew6586]

I don't know about Grant being caught by surprise. It feels like they were on Waiters all along, which is concerning because in that case how do you not trade down?

The alternative is that Grant was taken completely off guard when Beal and MKG were gone. I mean, how can that possibly happen? even if you thought Charlotte like TR, it's not like MKG was completely out of left field or anything. Hell, that was the assumption immediately on lotto night and it's been talked about as a possibility for a month. If Grant truly didn't have a plan for Beal and MKG being off the board...wow. It's too ridiculous to thnk that even for the most incompetent GM.

That's what I mean by being taken by surprise and panicking. They didn't expect those two guys to be off the table (or at least that's how it looks).

[motherscratcher]

I don't know about Grant being caught by surprise. It feels like they were on Waiters all along, which is concerning because in that case how do you not trade down?

The alternative is that Grant was taken completely off guard when Beal and MKG were gone. I mean, how can that possibly happen? even if you thought Charlotte like TR, it's not like MKG was completely out of left field or anything. Hell, that was the assumption immediately on lotto night and it's been talked about as a possibility for a month. If Grant truly didn't have a plan for Beal and MKG being off the board...wow. It's too ridiculous to thnk that even for the most incompetent GM.

That's what I mean by being taken by surprise and panicking. They didn't expect those two guys to be off the table (or at least that's how it looks).

I'm saying that I don't understand how that could possibly be the case, no matter how incompetent the GM is. I don't buy it.

[pup]

So you want me to believe at no point, with all the hours devoted to drafting and scouting, nobody even mentioned "what would we do if Beal and MKG are gone?". Not once?

[rk]

You know the worst part of this entire thing is that if the Bobcats had just picked Robinson we'd all probably be estatic today. MKG and Zeller would have been a great draft IMHO. You get a big man who can score and has proven that he can play at a high level and you would have your wing player who can defend 2/3/4 and get to the hoop.

Instead the Cavs ended up having to reach for a misperceived need. They wanted a guy who can create his own shot at the 2/3 and with Beal and MKG off the board they refused to even consider other positions and just went with the next guy on their list. So they get a guy with a skill who never managed to get enough of his entire game together to start for his college team. A guy who was pushed on them from some assistant coach and who's head coach made it clear wasn't capable of beating out their existing guards - guys who I didn't see getting picked ahead of Waiters last night.

Maybe the Cavs know something nobody else knows. Maybe they're suddenly the wunderkinds of the basketball world. And Golden State (!) is just as capable of outsmarting the rest of the NBA world.

But they've shown no evidence of that in the past 3 years. So I am unclear why anyone would perceive this as anything more than a desperation pick for a position of 'need' over players at other positions, with other skillsets, who will almost certainly be better at the NBA level.

It's just a lot of stupid to take in.

[Prosecutor]

I don't like the way the draft played out at all and think that Grant was left flat footed when both Beal and MKG were gone. I really think our FO thought one of them would still be there at 4 and the draft went haywire on them when Charlotte took MKG instead of Robinson. I think Beal was their option 1, MKG was plan b and maybe there was no plan C.?

They got stuck with Plan C and it was Waiters. That's what happens when the ping pong balls and the teams drafting above you don't cooperate.

That said, Waiters was going number 7 to Golden State if he didn't go at 4 to the Cavs. That has been widely reported now and the speculation is that Golden State was the "top 10 guarantee" team. So even though I don't like the way the draft went let's not pretent the guy was a marginal top 20 pick.

Makes sense. I can't believe Phoenix "promised" they would pick him at #13 if he didn't work out for anyone and he went along with it. But a guarantee at #7 sounds right. By the way, why do you suppose GS would not want him working out for any top-six teams? I mean, the guy sucks, right? DraftExpress had him ranked 18th. Of course, they also had Drummond ranked 2nd, Sullinger 6th, Ross 16th, and Meyers Leonard 25th, so they're clearly not on the same page with NBA GM's.

I would have gone with Robinson if I were the Cavs at 4 but it seems that Waiters was not the huge stretch some are making him out to be or as big of a stretch at TT.

Of course he wasn't a huge stretch and the Cavs didn't panic. Unless you believe they NEVER considered the possibility that both MKG and Beal would be off the board. You think maybe that scenario never occurred to them and they were caught "flat-footed"?

The Cavs could have taken Robinson, kept Andy as their starting center, and still traded up with Dallas for the 17th pick and taken a SG. Fournier went at #20. But Grant said they wanted to move Andy back to his natural position. They got a true 7-foot center with offensive skills, Andy goes back to power forward where he'll take less of a beating and hopefully stay healthy, and they got best 2 on their board after Beal. I don't know how they could have done better with MKG and Beal off the board. They could have traded up for Beal but they weren't willing to take on a bad contract and a bad personality.