Perez Rants Again

[skatingtripods]

Randy Lerner wants to win, he's just too 'effin stupid to figure out how to win. The Dolans would like to win (because that increases revenue), but they don't have the will to make the investment. That would be too risky. To them, the safest bet is to dump salary and keep your fingers crossed.

The fans see this, and that's why they stay away.

This is entirely too simplified. All money in a baseball contract is guaranteed. Football isn't the same. Not to mention, football has a salary cap. Everybody is on equal, or at least relatively equal, footing.

Randy Lerner spends money just as stupidly, including the hiring and firing of coaches like he changes his jammies.

The Browns have to keep their fingers crossed and hope too because no free agents want to come here. One of the same issues that the Indians have. They can't be players because Cleveland is not a desirable location.

I fail to see where Lerner is any better than the Dolans. One spends a ton of money with no results, one spends little money with no results. Explain to me why one is so much better than the other. Because Lerner "tries"? Fine, but if Lerner tried with some intent, the Browns could have nice things. The Dolans can't even try because baseball economics don't let them.

If you're going to argue that the Browns draw better than the Indians because they're a better organization, you're not going to have much credibility.

If you want to argue the obvious points that have already been discussed (# of home games, time of year, once/week, etc.), then sure, those are all valid.

But to infer that the clown show that is the Browns is better than the Indians is just ludicrous.

[pup]

While the results are no better, the effort appears to be better. Which is what a majority of fans recognize.

NEVER have the Browns been accused of not making a move because of money. If anything, they waste money trying to improve (paying coaches and front office execs to leave). If you don't think a majority of fans perceive to be true, there is no point in going forward. Perception is reality.

The Indians draw like shit because people do not trust or believe them. People know getting into this team is only going to result in the players they grow to like will leave. It isn't an economics thing. It is a choice.

If 1,000,000 can result in a payroll of X then 2,000,000 should result a payroll of XY. Not saying Y is 2, bu it certainly would not be that hard to decipher. They expect us to front the money for them. We expect them to front the money for us. In the current situation, everyone loses.

Sell the team to someone that will operate at minimal profit at first because they can. Build a winner. Christ, overspend on suck and people will show up because they will believe in what you are doing.

[swerb]

It's not apples to apples though. Even with Browns Stadium EMPTY for the last 3 of 8 games, the Browns still make GOBS of $ cause of the TV and licensing deals. Lerner couldn't lose $ on the team even if he tried. With just 8 games and a lot of displaced Clevelanders that come in for 1-2/year, the team has already made their nut for the year before the kickoff of the first game.

Baseball - I am clearly not naive enough to think the Dolans are losing money. But it is feasible that a baseball team could make very little to no money or even lose $.

I agree with the general premise of needing to spend $ to make $. I have generally supported the Indians not spending like crazy the last couple years, with the hopes that they would stay true to their word and spend when they are in a spot like they are now. If they fail to improve the team this summer, I will be very disappointed as a fan.

But saying Lerner spends and Dolan doesn't, it's not fair really. The financial models of the two sports are polarly opposite. Same with all the idiots that think Gilbert is out there deficit spending. He's not. When he's making gobs of $, he's spending some. When he's not, like last year, he's sitting on it.

[skatingtripods]

I agree with the general premise of needing to spend $ to make $. I have generally supported the Indians not spending like crazy the last couple years, with the hopes that they would stay true to their word and spend when they are in a spot like they are now. If they fail to improve the team this summer, I will be very disappointed as a fan.

Me too.

----
It's so much harder to spend money in baseball. 100% of contract is guaranteed unless you can get the player to agree otherwise, which almost never happens. Guys are always looking for multi-year deals. In this market, if you sign the wrong guy to a multi-year deal, you're screwed. 10M to one guy is roughly 13-15% of your budget. You can't be wrong in those situations.

Some people just don't grasp that concept. It's great to look like you're making an effort, but it has to be a concerted effort to work within the payroll constraints.

Everybody thinks it's as easy as seeing Player X available and throwing money at him. It's not.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

About everything I needed to know I saw when the fans could sell out the Q every night in 2007 but couldn't be arsed enough to show up for the Tribe's pennant run.

[pup]

I agree with the general premise of needing to spend $ to make $. I have generally supported the Indians not spending like crazy the last couple years, with the hopes that they would stay true to their word and spend when they are in a spot like they are now. If they fail to improve the team this summer, I will be very disappointed as a fan.

Me too.

----
It's so much harder to spend money in baseball. 100% of contract is guaranteed unless you can get the player to agree otherwise, which almost never happens. Guys are always looking for multi-year deals. In this market, if you sign the wrong guy to a multi-year deal, you're screwed. 10M to one guy is roughly 13-15% of your budget. You can't be wrong in those situations.

Some people just don't grasp that concept. It's great to look like you're making an effort, but it has to be a concerted effort to work within the payroll constraints.

Everybody thinks it's as easy as seeing Player X available and throwing money at him. It's not.

Boo fucking hoo.

It is hard and if we are wrong it will cripple us. So we will not try, enjoy our profit provided by the big markets spending what they do and cross our fingers.

And the bullshit about people not wanting to come to Cleveland is a load of shit. Why don't free agents sign with the Indians?
1. They don't get the same offer they do from other places.
2. As soon as shit goes downhill, they are going to cut bait on anyone they can and rebuild.

Will never forget the quotes about shit like "free agents will come because we do things the right way" and "our new palace in Arizona will make people want to play here".

They are a joke of an organization. Have been for years. Made a couple of real good trades, a few debacles and nothing else. Fucked up draft after draft. Developed nobody. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Now they are paying for all that, and that want it to be my money that pays for it.

[skatingtripods]

And the bullshit about people not wanting to come to Cleveland is a load of shit. Why don't free agents sign with the Indians?
1. They don't get the same offer they do from other places.
2. As soon as shit goes downhill, they are going to cut bait on anyone they can and rebuild.

Why don't we ask Carlos Pena and Carlos Beltran if #1 is the reason?

They are a joke of an organization. Have been for years. Made a couple of real good trades, a few debacles and nothing else. Fucked up draft after draft. Developed nobody. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Now they are paying for all that, and that want it to be my money that pays for it.

I hope you don't go to Browns games. Otherwise, you're nothing more than a hypocrite.

I'll grant the Lerner clearly has more money than the Dolans, but the Browns are also a joke of an organization, have been for years, made a couple of good trades, fucked up draft after draft, and have only developed a handful of good players. And let's be honest, drafted players are light years closer in football than in baseball.

[pup]

And the bullshit about people not wanting to come to Cleveland is a load of shit. Why don't free agents sign with the Indians?
1. They don't get the same offer they do from other places.
2. As soon as shit goes downhill, they are going to cut bait on anyone they can and rebuild.

Why don't we ask Carlos Pena and Carlos Beltran if #1 is the reason?

They are a joke of an organization. Have been for years. Made a couple of real good trades, a few debacles and nothing else. Fucked up draft after draft. Developed nobody. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Now they are paying for all that, and that want it to be my money that pays for it.

I hope you don't go to Browns games. Otherwise, you're nothing more than a hypocrite.

I'll grant the Lerner clearly has more money than the Dolans, but the Browns are also a joke of an organization, have been for years, made a couple of good trades, fucked up draft after draft, and have only developed a handful of good players. And let's be honest, drafted players are light years closer in football than in baseball.

That is why there is a second reason. Equal offers do you know good when these guys know a bad start means you are finishing your contract playing with Trevor Crowe and Aaron Cunningham.

I have said multiple times. None of what I am saying = Browns being good. Obviously. I am saying the way they are fucking up is more acceptable to average fan. They also have more to sell than Indians. Supply and demand. If there are only 8 opportunities to do something, you are more likely to do it. Which is why so many people are saying the comp is not apples to apples.

Like I said earlier. The results of the two organizations are nearly identical. So either people in Cleveland hate baseball, or there is another reason they do not come to games. Many people have provided these reasons throughout countless threads and posts on the matter.

I would love to hear the reasons some of the Pro-Indians people think fans do not go.

[rigs]

Rich,
Why wait until the end of July? Why not the last offseason??? THAT was the time. That was the window. Not when you are in 3rd place in late July, cause you only want to pay two months of a guy's contract.

[swerb]

The whole Browns v Indians argument, it makes no sense. It's apples to oranges. Pointless to even compare and contrast the two. If Dolan owned the Browns, he'd be spending just as much $ as that moron Lerner.

When it comes to the Indians front office, they have not been as horrible as Rigs tries to sensationalize. The team was one win away from winning the World Series in 2007. Had they won one of the last three games against Boston, there was likely a 75-80% chance they would have run through that worn down, petered out Rockies team the same way Boston did. And the org and FO would be viewed much differently with a title. You can also spin the #'s the way Rigs does when he says "one postseason since 2002", by saying that they've won 80 or more games 7 of the 13 years since Shapiro has been GM despite having a bottom 10 payroll through all of it.

End of the day, at the big league level, the team has made some very good moves. They've made some very bad ones. They gotta roll the dice on the Aaron Cunninghams, Jose Lopez's and Kevin Slowey's ... cause they just reaslistically don't produce the revenue to buy the Beltrans and the CJ Wilsons of the world.

Bottom line, where the org has failed most is here in my mind ...

1. Have drafted like shit overall during Shapiro Era - Most important thing as a small to mid market team. MUST draft well. Not only for the cheap talent during theeir early years, but so you have the ammo to improve the team at times like now.

2. PR has been awful - What the Indians are saying is right. You try and sustain a competitive team, look for your windows, and pick your spots to amp up payroll. You just are insane to actually tell fans that. Fans don't wanna hear sob stories. Either open the books and tell people what you're generating, making, and spending ... or say nothing.

3. FO thinks too much like fantasy baseball owners - Tigers steal Doug Fister for nothing from the M's, we go out and give up the farm for a very flawed Ubaldo. Put the spreadsheets and algorithims away.

[justmebd]

Randy Lerner wants to win, he's just too 'effin stupid to figure out how to win. The Dolans would like to win (because that increases revenue), but they don't have the will to make the investment. That would be too risky. To them, the safest bet is to dump salary and keep your fingers crossed.

The fans see this, and that's why they stay away.

This is entirely too simplified. All money in a baseball contract is guaranteed. Football isn't the same. Not to mention, football has a salary cap. Everybody is on equal, or at least relatively equal, footing.

Randy Lerner spends money just as stupidly, including the hiring and firing of coaches like he changes his jammies.

The Browns have to keep their fingers crossed and hope too because no free agents want to come here. One of the same issues that the Indians have. They can't be players because Cleveland is not a desirable location.

I fail to see where Lerner is any better than the Dolans. One spends a ton of money with no results, one spends little money with no results. Explain to me why one is so much better than the other. Because Lerner "tries"? Fine, but if Lerner tried with some intent, the Browns could have nice things. The Dolans can't even try because baseball economics don't let them.

If you're going to argue that the Browns draw better than the Indians because they're a better organization, you're not going to have much credibility.

If you want to argue the obvious points that have already been discussed (# of home games, time of year, once/week, etc.), then sure, those are all valid.

But to infer that the clown show that is the Browns is better than the Indians is just ludicrous.

I was trying to keep it simple because I didn't want to write a 2,000-word piece. I don't think the Browns are a better organization. I think both organizations are a complete disaster, just in different ways.

My 5,000-word essay on this subject is very thought out and absolutely no one but me cares. But thanks for asking.

[swerb]

Rich,
Why wait until the end of July? Why not the last offseason??? THAT was the time. That was the window. Not when you are in 3rd place in late July, cause you only want to pay two months of a guy's contract.

They're not in third place. They're in second place. And they're 1 game out of 1st place. Does every post of yours have to be so laced with manipulated statistics and inaccuracies? It's old and tired.

And to answer your question, yes, in hindsight ... of course they should signed Willingham. Easy to say now. But this winter, more than 50% of the people I read weren't thrilled with the guy. And we had Grady at that time, who we had just resigned. And because there will ALWAYS be Josh Willingham types available at at the trade deadline, and to a team like the Indians, paying a guy 3mm for 10 weeks is a big difference from paying him 7mm for a full season. I'm not trying to justify it. They were in on him, couldn't pull the trigger. They still have a chance to do something now. If they don't ... not only will I be disappointed, but it will tell me a lot about this ownership groups TRUE desire to contend when it boils down to it.

[rigs]

They had success in 2007. I will give you that Rich. Just give me a year when it is time for a change. We are going on #12years1playoff (TM) At #15years1playoff (TM) is it time for a change? My point Rich, is that even if I give you "they are not that bad"...when is it time to try a different approach?
Serious question, does that make sense? At some point in any business you say, hmmmm....let's try something else.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I hope Perez is traded.

RH Bat.

Tired of hearing this tubby 1 inning fuck flapping that fat pie hole. Go jam another cupcake in your gullet and see how much fatter your ass can get.

[Spin]

I guess the St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants didn't get the memo that small market teams have to SUCK.

I'm so sick of hearing that excuse. Meanwhile the Tribe is listed in financial magazines as one of the MOST PROFITABLE FRANCHISES in baseball.

How anybody can take Dolan's side in this is the very definition of ignorance. I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.

[CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07!]

I guess the St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants didn't get the memo that small market teams have to SUCK.

San Francisco is in the 5th largest TV market in America, and the Cardinals have basically the entire Midwest as their fanbase.

[Spin]

I guess the St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants didn't get the memo that small market teams have to SUCK.

San Francisco is in the 5th largest TV market in America, and the Cardinals have basically the entire Midwest as their fanbase.

San Fran is 7th and Cleveland is 8th...

(We could compare Cincinnati's and Washington's payroll)

Title 47: Telecommunication
CHAPTER I: FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION (CONTINUED)
SUBCHAPTER C: BROADCAST RADIO SERVICES
PART 76: MULTICHANNEL VIDEO AND CABLE TELEVISION SERVICE
Subpart D: Carriage of Television Broadcast Signals

76.51 - Major television markets.

For purposes of the cable television rules, the following is a list of the major television markets and their designated communities:

(a) First 50 major television markets:

(1) New York, New York-Linden-Paterson-Newark, New Jersey.
(2) Los Angeles-San Bernardino-Corona-Riverside-Anaheim, Calif.
(3) Chicago, Ill.
(4) Philadelphia, Pa.-Burlington, N.J.
(5) Detroit, Mich.
(6) Boston-Cambridge-Worcester-Lawrence, Mass.
(7) San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, Calif.
(8) Cleveland-Lorain-Akron, Ohio.
(9) Washington, DC.
(10) Pittsburgh, Pa.

[leadpipe]

Enough Pup.

They just went out and stole Vinnie Rottino for the stretch run.

Some here say he's a right handed bat. I say he sounds like a guy who would headline "Chuckles" on a Friday night.

Either way, he's in the fold just in time.

[Bigfist]

Enough Pup.

They just went out and stole Vinnie Rottino for the stretch run.

Some here say he's a right handed bat. I say he sounds like a guy who would headline "Chuckles" on a Friday night.

Either way, he's in the fold just in time.

Yeah, but as I pointed out in another thread, we had to jettison Schwinden from the 40 man roster to make room for Rottino. So, it is not all good news.

In a more serious tone, has anyone even heard of this guy Schwinden?

[leadpipe]

Enough Pup.

They just went out and stole Vinnie Rottino for the stretch run.

Some here say he's a right handed bat. I say he sounds like a guy who would headline "Chuckles" on a Friday night.

Either way, he's in the fold just in time.

Yeah, but as I pointed out in another thread, we had to jettison Schwinden from the 40 man roster to make room for Rottino. So, it is not all good news.

In a more serious tone, has anyone even heard of this guy Schwinden?

Yeah, I think he made my wife's bicycle.

[pup]

I guess the St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants didn't get the memo that small market teams have to SUCK.

San Francisco is in the 5th largest TV market in America, and the Cardinals have basically the entire Midwest as their fanbase.

Either one got their own god damn network?

[WiscTribeFan]

I guess the St. Louis Cardinals and San Francisco Giants didn't get the memo that small market teams have to SUCK.

San Francisco is in the 5th largest TV market in America, and the Cardinals have basically the entire Midwest as their fanbase.

Either one got their own god damn network?

They have contracts with FoxSportsNet, which I'm sure pays them well. They also have drawn more people to their stadiums as of today than Cleveland probably will all season, not to mention all that goes with it, like merchandise, etc.

Comparing a metro area like SF (~7 million people, not exactly a small market) and St. Louis, one of the most rabid baseball towns in this country, to Cleveland is pointless.

[Spin]

Comparing a metro area like SF (~7 million people, not exactly a small market)

That market is split with the A's and the Earthquakes which has seen a 17% increase in attendance (a sport that averages more fans than the Tribe 18541-18408).

and St. Louis, one of the most rabid baseball towns in this country, to Cleveland is pointless.

True, there are cities that favor one sport over the rest, which was our whole point about Cleveland being a football town.

[pup]

Comparing a metro area like SF (~7 million people, not exactly a small market)

That market is split with the A's and the Earthquakes which has seen a 17% increase in attendance (a sport that averages more fans than the Tribe 18541-18408).

and St. Louis, one of the most rabid baseball towns in this country, to Cleveland is pointless.

True, there are cities that favor one sport over the rest, which was our whole point about Cleveland being a football town.

I will give you this much. You sure can fuck up some quote boxes.

[Eckersley]

When it comes to the Indians front office, they have not been as horrible as Rigs tries to sensationalize. The team was one win away from winning the World Series in 2007.

Sure they were, but much of that success was gained by players acquired by the previous regime.

CC: 19-7 3.21
Carmona: 19-8 3.06
Vic: .301 25-114

Are they even .500 without those 3?

The current roster is now filled 100% with players acquired in the Dolan/Shapiro/Antonetti era. The team is inching close to another rebuild with a poor minor league sans Lindor. I find it difficult to say much positive about Dolan & Shapiro. If anything, I think Acta deserves a bit of credit for winning 80 games last year & having the current team at .500 with a lot of mediocre talent.

[jb]

NEVER have the Browns been accused of not making a move because of money.

You have followed the last 3 off seasons, right?

[WiscTribeFan]

When it comes to the Indians front office, they have not been as horrible as Rigs tries to sensationalize. The team was one win away from winning the World Series in 2007.

Sure they were, but much of that success was gained by players acquired by the previous regime.

CC: 19-7 3.21
Carmona: 19-8 3.06
Vic: .301 25-114

Are they even .500 without those 3?

Logic in a vacuum. Brilliant.

[Spin]

I will give you this much. You sure can fuck up some quote boxes.

topic evasion noted...

[Eckersley]

When it comes to the Indians front office, they have not been as horrible as Rigs tries to sensationalize. The team was one win away from winning the World Series in 2007.

Sure they were, but much of that success was gained by players acquired by the previous regime.

CC: 19-7 3.21
Carmona: 19-8 3.06
Vic: .301 25-114

Are they even .500 without those 3?

Logic in a vacuum. Brilliant.

Shouldn't the current regime be graded by players acquired by the current regime? We're looking at it right now & the future looks bleak.

[skatingtripods]

I would love to hear the reasons some of the Pro-Indians people think fans do not go.

Didn't want you to think I was going to ignore this point. Scrambling in advance of vacation.

There are plenty of reasons that are unrelated to the team, front office, or product.

1. Weekday games are hard to get to. As the people who have disposable income move farther and farther from downtown, the commute to a weeknight Indians game just isn't worth it. If you get out of work at 5, pick up the kids by 5:30, you're either hurrying them through a fast food dinner just to make it downtown by first pitch or you're paying $40 to feed the family at the ballpark.

2. Downtown is hard to get in and out of and people don't want to bother with it. All the construction, the innerbelt traffic, the parking situation. It's not easy. At least with Browns Stadium, you can utilize the RTA Rapid, Rt. 2 and Rt. 90 and don't have to go through downtown rush hour traffic if you come in the back side of the city.

3. It's summertime. People do other shit. My niece just graduated high school and she and her family have grad parties to go to every Saturday and Sunday for the next six weeks, including hosting hers. People cook out, have family get-togethers. They watch the game, or maybe have the radio on, but they aren't going to go downtown with other obligations. They're out on boats, going on vacations, maintaining the house and yard. Kids are swimming the neighbor's pool.

4. Along with the point I made above about the long commute, families find it easier and cheaper to see Lake County, Akron, or Avon instead of go downtown. These ballparks are more family-friendly with cheaper concessions and less hassle.

And so on. The biggest differences between the Browns/Indians are who goes to Browns games (generally not families of four like baseball is reliant on) and that it's once-a-week, in a season where people are desperate to get out and do something. Baseball has to have the attendance of children to draw well. Most people don't bother to take kids to a football game. They're cold, they whine, etc.

Plus, just think about Browns game attendance. What, probably 75-80% male? Maybe more? All those working men are off on Sunday or can schedule around a Browns game. That's not the case with baseball games, where roughly 70% of the games are on weekdays.

[pup]

I would love to hear the reasons some of the Pro-Indians people think fans do not go.

Didn't want you to think I was going to ignore this point. Scrambling in advance of vacation.

There are plenty of reasons that are unrelated to the team, front office, or product.

1. Weekday games are hard to get to. As the people who have disposable income move farther and farther from downtown, the commute to a weeknight Indians game just isn't worth it. If you get out of work at 5, pick up the kids by 5:30, you're either hurrying them through a fast food dinner just to make it downtown by first pitch or you're paying $40 to feed the family at the ballpark.

2. Downtown is hard to get in and out of and people don't want to bother with it. All the construction, the innerbelt traffic, the parking situation. It's not easy. At least with Browns Stadium, you can utilize the RTA Rapid, Rt. 2 and Rt. 90 and don't have to go through downtown rush hour traffic if you come in the back side of the city.

3. It's summertime. People do other shit. My niece just graduated high school and she and her family have grad parties to go to every Saturday and Sunday for the next six weeks, including hosting hers. People cook out, have family get-togethers. They watch the game, or maybe have the radio on, but they aren't going to go downtown with other obligations. They're out on boats, going on vacations, maintaining the house and yard. Kids are swimming the neighbor's pool.

4. Along with the point I made above about the long commute, families find it easier and cheaper to see Lake County, Akron, or Avon instead of go downtown. These ballparks are more family-friendly with cheaper concessions and less hassle.

And so on. The biggest differences between the Browns/Indians are who goes to Browns games (generally not families of four like baseball is reliant on) and that it's once-a-week, in a season where people are desperate to get out and do something. Baseball has to have the attendance of children to draw well. Most people don't bother to take kids to a football game. They're cold, they whine, etc.

Plus, just think about Browns game attendance. What, probably 75-80% male? Maybe more? All those working men are off on Sunday or can schedule around a Browns game. That's not the case with baseball games, where roughly 70% of the games are on weekdays.

Those things are true every year. They do nothing to explain why attendance is lower than years past.

[pup]

NEVER have the Browns been accused of not making a move because of money.

You have followed the last 3 off seasons, right?

Sure have. And I cannot recall anyone saying the price is too high. Their plan is to build the foundation through the draft. I believe if they get that foundation built, they will spend as needed to augment what they have.

And they sure as hell won't end up with 11 strong safeties starting on defense, like the Indians have done with left handed hitters

[pup]

I will give you this much. You sure can fuck up some quote boxes.

topic evasion noted...

What did I evade? Were you asking me a question, or where you asking a question to the person you really quoted even though the quote box makes it look like I said it?

[jb]

My 5,000-word essay on this subject is very thought out and absolutely no one but me cares. But thanks for asking.

Bring it.

[jb]

NEVER have the Browns been accused of not making a move because of money.

You have followed the last 3 off seasons, right?

Sure have. And I cannot recall anyone saying the price is too high. Their plan is to build the foundation through the draft. I believe if they get that foundation built, they will spend as needed to augment what they have.

And they sure as hell won't end up with 11 strong safeties starting on defense, like the Indians have done with left handed hitters

But until this year we had a soft-tossing quarterback....

[jb]

Those things are true every year.

And in every city.

PS - You have to walk like 200 yards from the RTA station to the Jake (that's right, the Jake.) About as far as the CBS stop.

Plus, I don't think more young people have ever lived downtown than do now. They should make a weeknight push for them by some better Terrace Club promos.

[e0y2e3]

Young people don't watch baseball, period. The Neilson numbers for the last WS showed a median age in the 50s.

The youngest fanbase is the NBA, followed by the NFL and then a good drop and you have the MLB.

[WiscTribeFan]

When it comes to the Indians front office, they have not been as horrible as Rigs tries to sensationalize. The team was one win away from winning the World Series in 2007.

Sure they were, but much of that success was gained by players acquired by the previous regime.

CC: 19-7 3.21
Carmona: 19-8 3.06
Vic: .301 25-114

Are they even .500 without those 3?

Logic in a vacuum. Brilliant.

Shouldn't the current regime be graded by players acquired by the current regime? We're looking at it right now & the future looks bleak.

This has nothing to do with your above statement. It's as if those three players alone were responsible for the success a few years ago. They were a part of it, sure. Baseball is still very much a team game. No-one, save you maybe, looks at a team based on what GM signed them.

When you talk about regime, exactly who do you mean? Despite coming from the same line, Shapiro and Antonetti are different 'regimes'. No way would Shapiro have pulled the trigger on the Ubaldo deal. We can blame Antonetti for that deal, but the team he has on the field was largely put together by Shapiro. Shapiro is his boss, but Antonetti is making the call on the players on the field at this point.

[mattvan1]

I would love to hear the reasons some of the Pro-Indians people think fans do not go.

Didn't want you to think I was going to ignore this point. Scrambling in advance of vacation.

There are plenty of reasons that are unrelated to the team, front office, or product.

1. Weekday games are hard to get to. As the people who have disposable income move farther and farther from downtown, the commute to a weeknight Indians game just isn't worth it. If you get out of work at 5, pick up the kids by 5:30, you're either hurrying them through a fast food dinner just to make it downtown by first pitch or you're paying $40 to feed the family at the ballpark.

2. Downtown is hard to get in and out of and people don't want to bother with it. All the construction, the innerbelt traffic, the parking situation. It's not easy. At least with Browns Stadium, you can utilize the RTA Rapid, Rt. 2 and Rt. 90 and don't have to go through downtown rush hour traffic if you come in the back side of the city.

3. It's summertime. People do other shit. My niece just graduated high school and she and her family have grad parties to go to every Saturday and Sunday for the next six weeks, including hosting hers. People cook out, have family get-togethers. They watch the game, or maybe have the radio on, but they aren't going to go downtown with other obligations. They're out on boats, going on vacations, maintaining the house and yard. Kids are swimming the neighbor's pool.

4. Along with the point I made above about the long commute, families find it easier and cheaper to see Lake County, Akron, or Avon instead of go downtown. These ballparks are more family-friendly with cheaper concessions and less hassle.

And so on. The biggest differences between the Browns/Indians are who goes to Browns games (generally not families of four like baseball is reliant on) and that it's once-a-week, in a season where people are desperate to get out and do something. Baseball has to have the attendance of children to draw well. Most people don't bother to take kids to a football game. They're cold, they whine, etc.

Plus, just think about Browns game attendance. What, probably 75-80% male? Maybe more? All those working men are off on Sunday or can schedule around a Browns game. That's not the case with baseball games, where roughly 70% of the games are on weekdays.

Those things are true every year. They do nothing to explain why attendance is lower than years past.

Indeed. Weren't all of those factors in play durring the 455?

It's all about the season ticket base. Individuals stopped buying them when their companies stopped letting employees write off the expense or when they opted for Cavs tickets instead. Companies stopped buying them when the economy went in the tank.

This argument cracks me up. Some poor suburbinite in North Olmstead gets the blame for not wanting to drop a hundy or so once a week as a walk-up when it has been and always will be about companies and die hards with $$$ who pony up for season tickets.

[jb]

When it comes to the Indians front office, they have not been as horrible as Rigs tries to sensationalize. The team was one win away from winning the World Series in 2007.

Sure they were, but much of that success was gained by players acquired by the previous regime.

CC: 19-7 3.21
Carmona: 19-8 3.06
Vic: .301 25-114

Are they even .500 without those 3?

Logic in a vacuum. Brilliant.

Eck's new gloss is "Dyson".

[jb]

Young people don't watch baseball, period. The Neilson numbers for the last WS showed a median age in the 50s.

The youngest fanbase is the NBA, followed by the NFL and then a good drop and you have the MLB.

All it takes is beer and pie, Eye.

Everyone likes pie.

[peeker643]

Shouldn't the current regime be graded by players acquired by the current regime? We're looking at it right now & the future looks bleak.

So are ya judging the current regime on the current roster, the players who are gone that were acquired by the other regime or are you judging the current on the future?

Seems you want it every way.

I will say that Cabrera and Kipnis, Choo and Santana and Masterson, Perez and Pestano were the product of this regime, no?

They've missed like the other regime missed (Alex Cole, Mark Whiten, Glenallen Hill long term deals if I recall correctly) but the nucleus of this team was put together by this regime and there is quality there.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Shouldn't the current regime be graded by players acquired by the current regime? We're looking at it right now & the future looks bleak.

So are ya judging the current regime on the current roster, the players who are gone that were acquired by the other regime or are you judging the current on the future?

Seems you want it every way.

I will say that Cabrera and Kipnis, Choo and Santana and Masterson, Perez and Pestano were the product of this regime, no?

They've missed like the other regime missed (Alex Cole, Mark Whiten, Glenallen Hill long term deals if I recall correctly) but the nucleus of this team was put together by this regime and there is quality there.

STFU..... asshole.

Didn't you hear?

We got Vinnie Rigatoni.

[7foot3]

San Fran is 7th and Cleveland is 8th...

(We could compare Cincinnati's and Washington's payroll)

Title 47: Telecommunication
CHAPTER I: FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION (CONTINUED)
SUBCHAPTER C: BROADCAST RADIO SERVICES
PART 76: MULTICHANNEL VIDEO AND CABLE TELEVISION SERVICE
Subpart D: Carriage of Television Broadcast Signals

76.51 - Major television markets.

For purposes of the cable television rules, the following is a list of the major television markets and their designated communities:

(a) First 50 major television markets:

(1) New York, New York-Linden-Paterson-Newark, New Jersey.
(2) Los Angeles-San Bernardino-Corona-Riverside-Anaheim, Calif.
(3) Chicago, Ill.
(4) Philadelphia, Pa.-Burlington, N.J.
(5) Detroit, Mich.
(6) Boston-Cambridge-Worcester-Lawrence, Mass.
(7) San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, Calif.
(8) Cleveland-Lorain-Akron, Ohio.
(9) Washington, DC.
(10) Pittsburgh, Pa.

You'll notice this not to be a good measure when you look at the MLB blackout map, and when you compare the average salary of each market. San Francisco and St. Louis' borders extend well beyond the metro area of the city itself. And those towns haven't seen the number of Fortune 500 companies in the area cut in half over the last 20 years. When compared to other MLB markets (as MLB draws them up) Cleveland is small and broke, and I don't understand how anyone who has ever lived here could argue differently.

[TribeinLA]

Outside of Ohio, the AL Central, and people in St. Louis with good memories, does anyone really know who this guy is? Does he want to be the hated closer to the other 29 teams? My guess is he wouldn't mind, recalling the Alex Rios situation especially. White Sox fans aren't as passionate as Cubbies...they've likely forgotten him as well. Small market club...not like anyone else on the team remotely carries an attitude outside of Santana and Ubaldo.

I think he realizes that if he continues to play in front of 15,000 fans and for a .500 team, he won't get nearly the recognition he wants ala Sandman or Gagne a decade ago. Start blowing saves and ruining Masterson's game again and you'll be plenty recognized, Chris, without having to shoot your mouth.

If we traded him to the Yankees or Tigers, we would hate the guy. No one else would except fpr maybe the Red Sox. He's just not as marketable and infamous as he would like to be. He craves attention -- thus, the song of the day and the constant show-ups on MLB Network. I dunno...I like the way he's been pitching lately, but alas he hasn't had but one save opp in the last 8 days. Could Pestano do his job and we trade him for some starting pitching/RH bat? Or have the Dolans completely fallen asleep at the wheel and could care less?

[TribeinLA]

They've missed like the other regime missed (Alex Cole, Mark Whiten, Glenallen Hill long term deals if I recall correctly) but the nucleus of this team was put together by this regime and there is quality there.

Thank God for Eddie Taubensee, otherwise, Alex Cole would be a prime reason we would have never had those runs in the Central. He was great in '90 when he arrived, but Lofton came over and while Grover tried to use both in the 1 and 9 holes simultaneously, Cole was a 1 tool player. I think Lofton, even though we made one WS without him, was the most important part of the overall success in 1990's. I mean, we kept Wayne Kirby and Thomas Howard and got rid of Cole. Whiten had a hose and a .230 average. Hill was a bum. I hope this team doesn't miss like that. That was bad.

[pod2dawg]

........ Cleveland is small and broke, and I don't understand how anyone who has ever lived here could argue differently.

Just click our heels and say "the economy is fine" three times........Bam.....Highbees Casino.


Now everything will be OK. Free agent magnet & fans will now flock to downtown to support the Tribe.

Am I the only one here that "shoots" a couple beers and eats a couple sandwiches in the parking lot before going into a Tribe game?

[Am I Here Again?]

You don't actually have to scarf those sandwiches down before you go in - you can take a small cooler into the park with you. No beer or other fun stuff to drink though...unless you can figure out how to swap it out with the liquid from a juice drink box.

[CleSportsTruth]

Westbrook was the 4th starter's extension I was referring to.

And yes, I firmly believe they chose Hafner over CC.
And they chose Westbrook over Lee.

I did then. I do now.

No, they were wiling (foolishly) to offer the former, in both cases, $$$ b/c it was still much, much less than the big 2. They were never paying $22mil.+ for anyone. Period. They'd argue they CANNOT pay that much, but either way, it wasn't happening.

The Hafner deal was just a way to preempt fan outrage. So, they overpayed badly, but stil less than CC. Ditto Westbrook.

IMHO.

[CleSportsTruth]

There is no point in discussing anything with people that believe Hafner and Westbrook were chosen over CC and Lee.

Really, no point at all.

.

I dont believe that they were chosen over CC and Lee but I do believe they chose Westbrook and Hafner over CC. They took easier signs and quantity over allocating all of that resource money to 1 player and taking a risk.

Again they could have signed him for longer than the original 2 yr extension. They didnt.

One thing to take into consideration here, and once again pointing out how short-sighted this dunderheaded FO is, is that by trading Cliff Lee, they told the fan base "We are NOT going to put the money into this franchise it needs to compete, but we'll bullshit you until we're blue in the face."

By trading Lee, the second Cy Young Award Winner in as many years, this team lost more in potential revenue than they would have just by paying Cliff Lee's contract. I wish there was a way to quantify that statement, but there's no way you can prove to me I'm wrong.

The lack of interest in a team that has been in first place or flirting with first place lately is all the proof I need.

Randy Lerner wants to win, he's just too 'effin stupid to figure out how to win. The Dolans would like to win (because that increases revenue), but they don't have the will to make the investment. That would be too risky. To them, the safest bet is to dump salary and keep your fingers crossed.

The fans see this, and that's why they stay away.

I think if we understood that the Dolans will NEVER risk a significant yearly loss, their actions make sense. They'd rather go 63-99 and break even or get a tiny profit over 91-71 and losing $5-10+mil. or more. Terrible way to run a team, but they are who they are.