Sunday 6/24. Tribe at Astros

[googleeph2]

Would be awfully nice to get this win as they embark on a tough stretch of the schedule (tomorrow nite on natl TV- I plan to be required to start that game thread).

Facing another lefty. Even ManiAc-ta has acknowledged they need a major league RH hitter in the lineup. Santana is not even starting today. He should be available to hit for Lowe in the 5th or 6th (sorry).

C'mon Derek, we believe in you. Really.

Cleveland
Choo RF, Cabrera SS, Kipnis 2B, Lopez 3B, Brantley CF, Duncan LF, Kotchman 1B, Marson C, (Lowe P)

Houston
Altuve 2B, Lowrie SS, Lee 1B, Bogusevic RF, Johnson 3B, Castro C, Martinez LF, Schafer CF, (Happ P)

[skatingtripods]

Lowe's gotta be good because I don't see us hitting Happ around, even though a lot of teams have.

He needs a good start on the road. I wonder if it's mental. If you take away his CG SHO against Minnesota, his ERA is north of 8 on the road.

Would be a nice one to get today before heading to the Bronx.

[dazindiansfanuk]

deja vu?!

Tribe pitcher perfect in the early going and hanging on to a 1-0 lead..... let's hope it's not a repeat of yesterday!

[RedDawg53]

What a stupid place to have a hill... Idc how unique it is. The day is coming where a CF will get fauked up with a shattered leg

[googleeph2]

daz, I hear you although on a team that can hit, not all 5.00 eras are equal. A Gomez would seem to have a lot of value if the runs he allows don't happen until inning 5.

[googleeph2]

What a stupid place to have a hill... Idc how unique it is. The day is coming where a CF will get fauked up with a shattered leg

AMEN

[dazindiansfanuk]

That 2nd hit of the inning should've been an error.

You can talk about how hard it was hit all you want but Kip got a full glove on it without having to dive - you've gotta make that play!

[RedDawg53]

deja vu?!

Tribe pitcher perfect in the early going and hanging on to a 1-0 lead..... let's hope it's not a repeat of yesterday!

You jinxed it!

[Crooked River]

The decision to not offer Willingham the extra year is getting worse by the day, regardless of his 2-run moonshot off Chapman today.

This team is dying on the vine and it's only a matter of time until it drops off the map in this race despite the suckiness of the Central Division.

How in the hell can the Tribe muster 4 runs in a weekend against Astro pitching? Oh wait, I forgot. The Astros also have left-handers on their roster.

Frustration does not even begin to describe the feeling watching this team. The 90s teams would be 30 games over .500 by now and kicking up their boots dreaming about October. Disgusting.

Time for Antonetti to man up and make another bold move. Oh, and Manny Acta, sit Santana's garbage ass down for good.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The decision to not offer Willingham the extra year is getting worse by the day, regardless of his 2-run moonshot off Chapman today.

This team is dying on the vine and it's only a matter of time until it drops off the map in this race despite the suckiness of the Central Division.

How in the hell can the Tribe muster 4 runs in a weekend against Astro pitching? Oh wait, I forgot. The Astros also have left-handers on their roster.

Frustration does not even begin to describe the feeling watching this team. The 90s teams would be 30 games over .500 by now and kicking up their boots dreaming about October. Disgusting.

Time for Antonetti to man up and make another bold move. Oh, and Manny Acta, sit Santana's garbage ass down for good.

So you're sayin' there's a chance.

[RedDawg53]

The decision to not offer Willingham the extra year is getting worse by the day, regardless of his 2-run moonshot off Chapman today.

This team is dying on the vine and it's only a matter of time until it drops off the map in this race despite the suckiness of the Central Division.

How in the hell can the Tribe muster 4 runs in a weekend against Astro pitching? Oh wait, I forgot. The Astros also have left-handers on their roster.

Frustration does not even begin to describe the feeling watching this team. The 90s teams would be 30 games over .500 by now and kicking up their boots dreaming about October. Disgusting.

Time for Antonetti to man up and make another bold move. Oh, and Manny Acta, sit Santana's garbage ass down for good.

So you're sayin' there's a chance.

A chance? That's good enough for me

[RedDawg53]

As I say that. HR from Johnson. Well, maybe not a chance today

[skatingtripods]

We better find some left handed relievers worth a fuck. These two guys are pitching like dog shit covered in dog shit.

What an abortion these last two games have been. Embarrassing.

[statmasta]

Nick Hagadone isn't any better than Tony Sipp.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Hagadone throws a TON of meatballs.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Pout off the mound, fucko. BOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

[skatingtripods]

Esmil Rogers was a solid addition.

[Crooked River]

When is Radinsky going to be called to the carpet? This junk and inconsistency with the "other" bullpen guys and the starters has sooner or later got to fall on his shoulders. Hagadone was okay for a couple weeks. Then not so much. Scouting reports catching up to him or is it Radinsky's tutelage? Hmmmm...

If it is not his fault then the only guy to blame is Antonetti for not giving the club the proper pieces. It's an effing disgrace that this first-place ballclub can only win ONE way: seven strong innings from a starter, somehow get a lead during that time, and then turn it over to the bullpen. You can count on 1 hand the number of come-from-behind-in-the-late-inning wins and with the other hand you can count the number of 7-6 or 10-9 games. Doing so would still leave you plenty of digits.

[dazindiansfanuk]

Looking more and more like we can only trust 3 guys in the pen.

Also, looking more and more like the White Sox have just acquired Youkillis.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Esmil Rogers was a solid addition.

Who the fuck is that?

[RedDawg53]

Also, looking more and more like the White Sox have just acquired Youkillis.

Why do those assholes always get the big trades? Although Youk isnt playing that well

[davemanddd]

i just don't get how they can look so good against a first place team in sweeping the reds and then turn right back around and play so poorly against a last place team in what is a notorious hitter's friendly park. 4 runs in 3 games just ain't gonna cut it, guys. egads!!!


edit: ok, so the astros are not in last place??? sue me!!! but they have a bad enough record to be in last place in every single division in the american league. 'nuff said.

[skatingtripods]

When is Radinsky going to be called to the carpet? This junk and inconsistency with the "other" bullpen guys and the starters has sooner or later got to fall on his shoulders. Hagadone was okay for a couple weeks. Then not so much. Scouting reports catching up to him or is it Radinsky's tutelage? Hmmmm...

If it is not his fault then the only guy to blame is Antonetti for not giving the club the proper pieces. It's an effing disgrace that this first-place ballclub can only win ONE way: seven strong innings from a starter, somehow get a lead during that time, and then turn it over to the bullpen. You can count on 1 hand the number of come-from-behind-in-the-late-inning wins and with the other hand you can count the number of 7-6 or 10-9 games. Doing so would still leave you plenty of digits.

The pitchers have to perform. It's that simple.

Blaming it on Radinsky is futile.

[Crooked River]

One more word on Antonetti:

He is starting to make Mark Shapiro look like Billy "Moneyball" Beane.

The Jimenez trade is what it is, but the off-season moves and the in-season moves of these past few months have been absolutely f-ing terrible. All of them. I loved watching him squirm the other day when Drennan absolutely undressed him about denying LaPorta an opportunity in LF, Jimenez's underwhelming results, and the signing of Dead Johnny Damon. These are the moves we make in the window of opportunity? Re-signing Sizemore and Carmona? Casey Kotchman? Damon?

[statmasta]

When is Radinsky going to be called to the carpet? This junk and inconsistency with the "other" bullpen guys and the starters has sooner or later got to fall on his shoulders. Hagadone was okay for a couple weeks. Then not so much. Scouting reports catching up to him or is it Radinsky's tutelage? Hmmmm...

If it is not his fault then the only guy to blame is Antonetti for not giving the club the proper pieces. It's an effing disgrace that this first-place ballclub can only win ONE way: seven strong innings from a starter, somehow get a lead during that time, and then turn it over to the bullpen. You can count on 1 hand the number of come-from-behind-in-the-late-inning wins and with the other hand you can count the number of 7-6 or 10-9 games. Doing so would still leave you plenty of digits.

The pitchers have to perform. It's that simple.

Blaming it on Radinsky is futile.

Yeah, this.

Blaming the coaches for the players' failure is usually silly.

[statmasta]

One more word on Antonetti:

He is starting to make Mark Shapiro look like Billy "Moneyball" Beane.

The Jimenez trade is what it is, but the off-season moves and the in-season moves of these past few months have been absolutely f-ing terrible. All of them. I loved watching him squirm the other day when Drennan absolutely undressed him about denying LaPorta an opportunity in LF, Jimenez's underwhelming results, and the signing of Dead Johnny Damon. These are the moves we make in the window of opportunity? Re-signing Sizemore and Carmona? Casey Kotchman? Damon?

Calm down, man. It's just one series. The world is not ending. Everything will be ok.

[Crooked River]

When is Radinsky going to be called to the carpet? This junk and inconsistency with the "other" bullpen guys and the starters has sooner or later got to fall on his shoulders. Hagadone was okay for a couple weeks. Then not so much. Scouting reports catching up to him or is it Radinsky's tutelage? Hmmmm...

If it is not his fault then the only guy to blame is Antonetti for not giving the club the proper pieces. It's an effing disgrace that this first-place ballclub can only win ONE way: seven strong innings from a starter, somehow get a lead during that time, and then turn it over to the bullpen. You can count on 1 hand the number of come-from-behind-in-the-late-inning wins and with the other hand you can count the number of 7-6 or 10-9 games. Doing so would still leave you plenty of digits.

The pitchers have to perform. It's that simple.

Blaming it on Radinsky is futile.

So I am wondering why Nunnally was thrown under the bus last year yet Radinsky gets a free pass this year?

Because I can see our hitters this year having quality at-bats (except Santana's sorry ass). They mostly work deep in counts and make the opposing pitcher work; even against left-handed pitching. i.e. they are not flailing away aimlessly. There is a consistency in the approach.

On the other hand, this pitching staff has walked oodles and oodles of hitters. The bullpen guys not named Pestano and Perez fail day after day to hold the opponent down. Inconsistency is rampant.

[Crooked River]

One more word on Antonetti:

He is starting to make Mark Shapiro look like Billy "Moneyball" Beane.

The Jimenez trade is what it is, but the off-season moves and the in-season moves of these past few months have been absolutely f-ing terrible. All of them. I loved watching him squirm the other day when Drennan absolutely undressed him about denying LaPorta an opportunity in LF, Jimenez's underwhelming results, and the signing of Dead Johnny Damon. These are the moves we make in the window of opportunity? Re-signing Sizemore and Carmona? Casey Kotchman? Damon?

Calm down, man. It's just one series. The world is not ending. Everything will be ok.

It is not just one series. This type of baseball has reared its ugly head over and over again this year. The Reds series, every game against the White Sox, Pittsburgh, Boston, you want me to keep going?

I will say it again: this is a ballclub that can only win ONE way: face a RH starter, get a lead early, get a solid 7-inning start, turn it over to Pestano in the 8th.

That is not a division-championship caliber club. It is 75-win team masquerading as one.

Moves need to be made. Add a legitimate RH bat in LF and another starter. Bench Santana as soon as Hafner returns. Think long and hard about Radinsky as your PC because Pestano and Perez's arms will fall off unless he is able to get more out of these other guys out there in the pen.

[skatingtripods]

So I am wondering why Nunnally was thrown under the bus last year yet Radinsky gets a free pass this year?

The impression that I got was that Nunnally was an abrasive asshole with young hitters and wasn't very approachable. They'd never say that and it's easy to make him the scapegoat when the hitters are struggling, so that's what they did.

The inconsistency in pitching has nothing to do with Radinsky. It has to do with the lack of talent and the lack of quality secondary stuff that most of our pitchers deal with. You could argue that Radinsky must be doing something right with Jimenez for him to have bounced back. IMO, Masterson's talent carried him back to this level.

Gomez doesn't have the stuff to cut it in the Majors. Hagadone can't spot his slider and can't live on a straight fastball without it. Sipp is probably tipping his pitches and only has two of them anyway. Plus, with his motion, everything is up because he's lazy and not finishing his delivery. He either wants to fix it or he doesn't.

The part you're not getting is that a lot of these guys are pitching as exactly what they are. This is Josh Tomlin. For better or worse, he's a guy who'll mix in an occasional good start, give up 35 HR a season, and do his best to keep you in the ballgame. Gomez is the same way, but he doesn't have the cutter or curve ball that Tomlin has and because he can't change the eye level and has no separation in speeds, he gets rocked. Lowe is what he is. Veteran guy nearing the end of the rope.

Radinsky can't drastically overhaul all of these guys at once. Trying to get Ubaldo right is enough.

Fact is, the Indians rotation is Masterson, occasionally Jimenez, and then a bunch of guys. The bullpen is Pestano, Perez, and then a bunch of guys, Joe Smith included, who has gotten by solely on his odd delivery. Radinsky can't make foie gras out of processed chicken with rib meat.

You can get on Antonetti if you want to, but 10M per season for a #3 starter in today's MLB is just ludicrous. That's not his fault.

[Crooked River]

So I am wondering why Nunnally was thrown under the bus last year yet Radinsky gets a free pass this year?

The impression that I got was that Nunnally was an abrasive asshole with young hitters and wasn't very approachable. They'd never say that and it's easy to make him the scapegoat when the hitters are struggling, so that's what they did.

The inconsistency in pitching has nothing to do with Radinsky. It has to do with the lack of talent and the lack of quality secondary stuff that most of our pitchers deal with. You could argue that Radinsky must be doing something right with Jimenez for him to have bounced back. IMO, Masterson's talent carried him back to this level.

Gomez doesn't have the stuff to cut it in the Majors. Hagadone can't spot his slider and can't live on a straight fastball without it. Sipp is probably tipping his pitches and only has two of them anyway. Plus, with his motion, everything is up because he's lazy and not finishing his delivery. He either wants to fix it or he doesn't.

The part you're not getting is that a lot of these guys are pitching as exactly what they are. This is Josh Tomlin. For better or worse, he's a guy who'll mix in an occasional good start, give up 35 HR a season, and do his best to keep you in the ballgame. Gomez is the same way, but he doesn't have the cutter or curve ball that Tomlin has and because he can't change the eye level and has no separation in speeds, he gets rocked. Lowe is what he is. Veteran guy nearing the end of the rope.

Radinsky can't drastically overhaul all of these guys at once. Trying to get Ubaldo right is enough.

Fact is, the Indians rotation is Masterson, occasionally Jimenez, and then a bunch of guys. The bullpen is Pestano, Perez, and then a bunch of guys, Joe Smith included, who has gotten by solely on his odd delivery. Radinsky can't make foie gras out of processed chicken with rib meat.

You can get on Antonetti if you want to, but 10M per season for a #3 starter in today's MLB is just ludicrous. That's not his fault.

Fair enough. BTW, I should have mentioned Tomlin earlier. I agree that he is what he is. I have no expectations regarding him because of his ability level, but as far as the rest of the staff goes, most guys are getting worse rather than better (Gomez, Hagadone, Sipp). At the very least I think Radinsky's work with these guys should be examined because I feel all three I have mentioned have the stuff to be ML-level contributors.

We will agree to disagree regarding Radinsky.

[googleeph2]

I really appreciate the tactfulness and graciousness here, but I'll acknowledge the 800 lb gorilla in the room if nobody else will:

I am 0-fer on game threads.

There, I said it.

Apologies to all. I need to step up my game.

I have options- I am being sent down. I hope to make the necessary adjustments and be ready when my next opportunity arises. If nothing else, I'm told I'll be a September call-up.

[leadpipe]

Major league coaches are nothing but sounding boards.

Christ, these guys are set in their ways well before they get to the show.

Ask any guy who's been here several years the difference between Nunnally, the guy before him, and the guy here now. The answer you'll get is somewhere close to...what?

And if they do muster up something it will have zero to do with "how he taught me...."

It took some on these boards about 5 years to realize bullpen and bench coaches do nothing but cock around. Hitting and pitching coaches...if they got guys that can PLAY, they are good. If they don't, they aren't. Kinda just like the arc of major league managers. Torre and Stengel are HOF managers when they stumbled into New York, and laughingstocks when surrounded by stiffs.

Game works pretty simply.

[skatingtripods]

Fair enough. BTW, I should have mentioned Tomlin earlier. I agree that he is what he is. I have no expectations regarding him because of his ability level, but as far as the rest of the staff goes, most guys are getting worse rather than better (Gomez, Hagadone, Sipp). At the very least I think Radinsky's work with these guys should be examined because I feel all three I have mentioned have the stuff to be ML-level contributors.

We will agree to disagree regarding Radinsky.

Well, keep in mind that Gomez is getting worse because his stuff isn't getting any better and he's not making adjustments in-game. You can place that on Radinsky if you want, but Gomez is essentially a 1-1.5 pitch pitcher with no deception and very little secondary stuff. Second/third time through the order (4th, 5th, 6th): 8.25, 11.12, 8.10 ERAs. Hitters go from .219 to .293 to .343 from 1st, 2nd, 3rd plate appearance. That's not on Radinsky. That's on Gomez and his catcher not making adjustments, or, quite frankly, it says that Gomez's stuff isn't good enough.

Hagadone needs to learn how to pitch in the Majors. Plus, his command's been bad.

Some of it is a learning curve, some of it is a lack of talent. I don't know what Radinsky does on a day-to-day basis, so I can't absolve him from all blame.

But the tools he's given to work with are going to build a rickety shack rather than a pristine house more often than not.

[googleeph2]

Torre and Stengel are HOF managers when they stumbled into New York, and laughingstocks when surrounded by stiffs.

Of course young guys eventually need to adjust to the adjustments the league makes to them. Coaches are important for that.

Re: Stengel, he didn't make players great (so your point taken), but he was credited by guys like Mel Harder as being a good mgr.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2LYDAA ... el&f=false


Interestingly, Bill Veeck wanted to replace Lou Boudreau with Stengel prior to the WS championship 1948 season but the public rebelled. Historians think Stengel would have been way better as a mgr, but besides the PR problem, Veeck would have taken a huge hit in losing his star shortstop.

[googleeph2]

Well, keep in mind that Gomez is getting worse because his stuff isn't getting any better and he's not making adjustments in-game. You can place that on Radinsky if you want, but Gomez is essentially a 1-1.5 pitch pitcher with no deception and very little secondary stuff. Second/third time through the order (4th, 5th, 6th): 8.25, 11.12, 8.10 ERAs. Hitters go from .219 to .293 to .343 from 1st, 2nd, 3rd plate appearance. That's not on Radinsky. That's on Gomez and his catcher not making adjustments, or, quite frankly, it says that Gomez's stuff isn't good enough.

I've been coming around to thinking Gomez needs to be a long man- agree?

What is the comfort level here for him coming in in a jam?

[skatingtripods]

I've been coming around to thinking Gomez needs to be a long man- agree?

What is the comfort level here for him coming in in a jam?

I'm fine with it. He's got starter stamina and can be an innings eater. Something that'll get valuable down the road. Can easily DFA Rogers/Accardo to put him there. Also gives the bullpen coach and Radinsky some time to work with him and try to salvage what's left, if anything.

[leadpipe]

Torre and Stengel are HOF managers when they stumbled into New York, and laughingstocks when surrounded by stiffs.

Of course young guys eventually need to adjust to the adjustments the league makes to them. Coaches are important for that.

Re: Stengel, he didn't make players great (so your point taken), but he was credited by guys like Mel Harder as being a good mgr.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2LYDAA ... el&f=false


Interestingly, Bill Veeck wanted to replace Lou Boudreau with Stengel prior to the WS championship 1948 season but the public rebelled. Historians think Stengel would have been way better as a mgr, but besides the PR problem, Veeck would have taken a huge hit in losing his star shortstop.

You know how young guys adjust to the league? They play.

Has zero to do with coaching.

Torre had anything to do with a young Derek Jeter? How'd he not use that same magic on Raffy Ramirez in Atlanta, or Tim Foli or Frank Tavares with the Mets?

As a coach, stumble upon guys that can PLAY.

Period.

And you know who will say Stengel and Torre were good managers. Primarily guys on the winning teams. Hell Torre barely kept himself awake long enough to get Rivera in for the 8th, and Wetteland the ninth. Before he became a great late inning manger when Rivera took over as the GOAT closer. Ask any guy on a World Series team, "how's your manager?" Oh...yeah...he's great.

[peeker643]

I think Radinsky and the bullpen coach have a done a terrific job coaching Pestano, Perez and Masterson of late. They're obviously spending all their time with those guys because they neglected the hell out of Dan Wheeler and are failing Tony Sipp.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

The coach (SHOULD) take an objective look at a player, then offer advice or mechanical adjustment suggestion. It is up to a player to then put that advice to work but none of that advice is worth a damn if the player sucks. The player must have talent. All the expert coaching in the world will not turn Jeanmar Gomez into a Cy Young winner. And you know what, most of the time a players talent will carry them anyways.

99% of coaches can offer the same advice which kind of makes them unimportant to a degree. Where the coaches differ is in their communication ability. Players respond differently to different coaches. You just need a coach that a talented player will listen to. This is where the coach makes his money.

[Adverb Harry]

Didn't know where else to put this, as it's hardly warranting of its own thread, but supposedly Scott Barnes has been called up. No word on who is going down, but I would imagine it would be Gomez, with McCallister in line to pitch his next scheduled start. Then, I suppose they could send down Sipp or Hagadone when that happens.

[dazindiansfanuk]

Didn't know where else to put this, as it's hardly warranting of its own thread, but supposedly Scott Barnes has been called up. No word on who is going down, but I would imagine it would be Gomez, with McCallister in line to pitch his next scheduled start. Then, I suppose they could send down Sipp or Hagadone when that happens.

They'd probably just send Barnes straight back down when McAllister comes up for his Thursday start.

[Adverb Harry]

Didn't know where else to put this, as it's hardly warranting of its own thread, but supposedly Scott Barnes has been called up. No word on who is going down, but I would imagine it would be Gomez, with McCallister in line to pitch his next scheduled start. Then, I suppose they could send down Sipp or Hagadone when that happens.

They'd probably just send Barnes straight back down when McAllister comes up for his Thursday start.

Yeah, that too.