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Cavs pick #4

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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:32 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Sully has an agent, plus they moved the drop dead date for declaring for the draft/going back WAY up this year (NCAA did IIRC) so he's already past it.

And yeah, Sully will be a solid bench player, IMO. The problem is he'll still probably go in the top ten (Redick had a flagged back and got a DUI a week after and still went 11 when he came out).

This draft is just too shitty from 5-15 for him to fall too far.



Hold yer nose.

better pro - TT or Sully?
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:37 pm

Sully.

He'll be useful, IMO and maybe something weird happens and he gets a Milsap-esque mid-range game.

Picking Sully would be like picking a lower level of Barnes. You know what you are going to get and there is some translateable skill there, but it isn't anything elite.

TT just has so many miles to go to even be half of Andy.... and not being able to play center will always really, really limit his skills.

It's like MJ with Biyombo in Charlotte. He is targeting T-Rob to have the offensive four to put next to Biyombo in the middle, offensive five's these days are pretty damn hard to find.

IMO, the Cavs would be best off going Beal and then trying anything in their power to get Zeller.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:25 pm

http://www.probasketballdraft.com/78-fe ... g-619.html

A lot of information on the Cavs draft plans. Drummond coming into the picture?
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:38 pm

And the Bradley Beal dream is officially over, with the Wizards trading for Okafur and Ariza they are in full on "save Ernie Grunfield's Job!!!' status and will almost assuredly be taking Beal to trot Nene, Okafur, Ariza, Beal and Wall (such a better team than last year, christ) out there.

That said, MKG is now realistic and even though Beal was a far better fit for what the Cavs needed that's kind of exciting.

John Wall isn't going to know what to do with himself not having to deal with Javale, Blatche, Shard, Nick Young, et al anymore. I bet he's crying right now.

Also, Blatche is going to be a FA now... LET THE BIDDING BEGIN!!!!!
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:57 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:with the Wizards trading for Okafur and Ariza



Hornets save 32 mill, and can buy out Lewis at 13.5 before July.

Gordon, AD, 10th pick, and endless amount of cap money.





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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:59 pm

With the Gordon cap hold the Hornets are around $46MM in committed salary, so it isn't endless enough to bring in someone like... D-Will. But yeah, they are in pretty good shape.

They can afford to bring CP3 back in 2013 now though!
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:36 pm

Yep. I think realistic Hornets fans don't expect a D-Will caliber guy to come aboard this year anyway with the only bait being Eric Gordon and the promise of what Davis can be, but it opens us up for alot of other quality FA's.

Wizards front office is just trying to live year by year and not get shit-canned. Plain and simple, no plan for anything past tomorrow.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:48 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And the Bradley Beal dream is officially over, with the Wizards trading for Okafur and Ariza they are in full on "save Ernie Grunfield's Job!!!' status and will almost assuredly be taking Beal to trot Nene, Okafur, Ariza, Beal and Wall (such a better team than last year, christ) out there.

That said, MKG is now realistic and even though Beal was a far better fit for what the Cavs needed that's kind of exciting.

John Wall isn't going to know what to do with himself not having to deal with Javale, Blatche, Shard, Nick Young, et al anymore. I bet he's crying right now.

Also, Blatche is going to be a FA now... LET THE BIDDING BEGIN!!!!!

It's funny. My biggest hope for the Cavs after the lottery was to somehow get MKG. It seemed unrealistic at first. But as time has gone on, and I have read more, I have been all in on Beal. Now it seems he might be unrealistic for us and MKG is realistic... and I should be thrilled. I don't know, I just want some offensive punch for the Cavs.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:00 pm

Beal is 100% the better "fit" no matter how you feel about MKG.

That said, Kyrie and MKG could be EVIL in transition (and TT if he could develop hands, instincts and awareness)
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:18 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Beal is 100% the better "fit" no matter how you feel about MKG.

That said, Kyrie and MKG could be EVIL in transition (and TT if he could develop hands, instincts and awareness)

They are saying the draft is deeper than usual in two guards. If we get MKG at 4, and can slide up to get Ross from Washington, I would feel good. There are some pretty serviceable bigs that should be available at 24 as well.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby rk » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:48 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Beal is 100% the better "fit" no matter how you feel about MKG.

That said, Kyrie and MKG could be EVIL in transition (and TT if he could develop hands, instincts and awareness)


Stupid question of the day but does this make it more possible that the Cavs get neither guys? I was pretty much on board with either Beal or MKG making it to 4. Now I'm worried this makes it more likely that neither do.

I think you've convinced me that Beal will be the better player on offense and certainly the best guy to start building a team around but I still thought MKG would be a better fit long term with Kyrie. His ability to play D against almost any position in addition to having the potential of being a main scoring option gives you the possibility of a Lebron lite late in games - which is where Kyrie shines anyway.

Draftexpress already updated with MKG booking a flight to CLE.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2012
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:06 pm

If this roster didn't have the biggest offensive black hole front court combo in the league I would be more pro-MKG, but truthfully without Jamo they have literally no one that can score/shoot, hence making Beal the better fit.

I wouldn't say one or the other of MKG/Beal will be the better long term fit, as you are right that MKG has the potential to be a perennial first team all NBA Igoudala style defender/player, which is a pretty awesome thing to have as your #2/3.

And the more and more I read the more I see that Charlotte is 100% sold on Biyombo and really, really wants to pair him with T-Rob to get the offensive/defensive/boarding thing going.

Right now my guess is that MKG is coming to Cleveland, which of course means Grant will take Barnes and I'll light myself on fire.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:12 pm

BTW: leaving this draft with Beal or MKG will make me kinda happy.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby bac5665 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:13 pm

If we get beal or MKG, I think it will make all of us kinda happy.

Which is about as happy as any NBA related thing can make me.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:14 pm

I'll be pretty happy when LBJ finally wins a ring so I NEVER AGAIN HAVE TO HEAR THE GAWD DAMN CHOKER/CAN'T WIN THE BIG ONE NARRATIVE.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:18 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I'll be pretty happy when LBJ finally wins a ring so I NEVER AGAIN HAVE TO HEAR THE GAWD DAMN CHOKER/CAN'T WIN THE BIG ONE NARRATIVE.

I somehow I hope to hear for his entire career. Not likely, but would love to.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby bac5665 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:25 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I'll be pretty happy when LBJ finally wins a ring so I NEVER AGAIN HAVE TO HEAR THE GAWD DAMN CHOKER/CAN'T WIN THE BIG ONE NARRATIVE.


To be fair, I don't hear that argument except for here. Otherwise, all I hear is Cowheard complaining about everyone attacking LeBron and saying he's a bad player, which is not something I've ever heard anyone say.

I'll be happy to not hear that defense of a strawman ever again.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:37 pm

bac5665 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:I'll be pretty happy when LBJ finally wins a ring so I NEVER AGAIN HAVE TO HEAR THE GAWD DAMN CHOKER/CAN'T WIN THE BIG ONE NARRATIVE.


To be fair, I don't hear that argument except for here. Otherwise, all I hear is Cowheard complaining about everyone attacking LeBron and saying he's a bad player, which is not something I've ever heard anyone say.

I'll be happy to not hear that defense of a strawman ever again.


I don't know, dude. I've heard that shit everywhere.

And he did kind of earn it. Not to the level that it's out there, but yeah. Not this year though, apparently.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby bac5665 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:44 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
bac5665 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:I'll be pretty happy when LBJ finally wins a ring so I NEVER AGAIN HAVE TO HEAR THE GAWD DAMN CHOKER/CAN'T WIN THE BIG ONE NARRATIVE.


To be fair, I don't hear that argument except for here. Otherwise, all I hear is Cowheard complaining about everyone attacking LeBron and saying he's a bad player, which is not something I've ever heard anyone say.

I'll be happy to not hear that defense of a strawman ever again.


I don't know, dude. I've heard that shit everywhere.

And he did kind of earn it. Not to the level that it's out there, but yeah. Not this year though, apparently.


Fair enough.

And for the record, I hate LeBron. I just think he is also a very good player. And by very good, I mean a once in two or three generational talent. But I also think he quit on the Cavs and for that he can go die in a fire :fu:
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:46 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:BTW: leaving this draft with Beal or MKG will make me kinda happy.



It's gonna be so "Cavalier" when one or both are available and the Cavs draft Barnes.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:59 pm

leadpipe wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:BTW: leaving this draft with Beal or MKG will make me kinda happy.



It's gonna be so "Cavalier" when one or both are available and the Cavs draft Barnes.


So I'm not the only one who thinks that this is inevitable?
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby dmiles » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:49 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:BTW: leaving this draft with Beal or MKG will make me kinda happy.



It's gonna be so "Cavalier" when one or both are available and the Cavs draft Barnes.


So I'm not the only one who thinks that this is inevitable?


Can we arrange to have Barnes go 1-on-1 against MKG?
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:17 am

I'm starting to side with Madre more and more about Grant's raw talent draft history...

Pretty much fully expecting Barnes (hyper athletic even if he can't use it, although you could do worse than a guy with Deng's ceiling) or Drummond.

Which if they pass on MKG will make me LOL for days.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:10 am

OldDawg wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And the Bradley Beal dream is officially over, with the Wizards trading for Okafur and Ariza they are in full on "save Ernie Grunfield's Job!!!' status and will almost assuredly be taking Beal to trot Nene, Okafur, Ariza, Beal and Wall (such a better team than last year, christ) out there.

That said, MKG is now realistic and even though Beal was a far better fit for what the Cavs needed that's kind of exciting.

John Wall isn't going to know what to do with himself not having to deal with Javale, Blatche, Shard, Nick Young, et al anymore. I bet he's crying right now.

Also, Blatche is going to be a FA now... LET THE BIDDING BEGIN!!!!!

It's funny. My biggest hope for the Cavs after the lottery was to somehow get MKG. It seemed unrealistic at first. But as time has gone on, and I have read more, I have been all in on Beal. Now it seems he might be unrealistic for us and MKG is realistic... and I should be thrilled. I don't know, I just want some offensive punch for the Cavs.



That's what over analysis will do to you, OD.

The Cavs WILL have a shot at a very good player, particularly if TR goes before us.

Now they MAY choose Drummand....

Still happy with MKG or Beal. Less so with Barnes butt not swinging from the shower rod. All have flaws but the flaws could be corrected for MKG & Barnes, but Beal is wysiwyg. Still, Beal is a poor man's Ray Allen to me.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:11 am

leadpipe wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:BTW: leaving this draft with Beal or MKG will make me kinda happy.



It's gonna be so "Cavalier" when one or both are available and the Cavs draft Drummand.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Fixed
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:35 am

You cannot correct Barnes inability to create a shot, you can work around it.

And WTF is what you see is what you get with Beal? I don't even know what that means, beyond he is the second youngest kid in the draft and has a ton of upside.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:46 am

I don't know. I think MKG and Beal are just too good all around for even Grant to pass up, think Kyrie vs DWill last year. Its if they're both gone that its Katie bar the door time.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:23 am

Not to mention that they are the two youngest prospects in the draft.

Barnes just went through a second season in college where he didn't improve his game a single iota.

But hey, JB muttered some stupid shit above, so we have that.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:49 am

I'd love either MKG or Beal but I'd rather have Beal just on the off chance they can also grab Quincy Miller with their other 1st, to play SF. Kyrie, MKG, and Miller would be scary.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:50 am

Whoever we pick, we're still gonna be shitty enough to have top 6-7 lottery odds again next year, right? With Davis off the board, that's our only chance to compete long term. In fact, we probably need two more good drafts (and Kyrie still wanting to stay after his rookie deal, but it's pretty rare for stars to leave at that point).

If Grant were smart, he'd be making cap/free agent decisions with 2014-2015 in mind and not setting us up to be a perennial 7 seed. As far as our draft pick, all this talk about fit is way overblown. We stink. BPA, all day every day except for point guards.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:35 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:I'd love either MKG or Beal but I'd rather have Beal just on the off chance they can also grab Quincy Miller with their other 1st, to play SF. Kyrie, MKG, and Miller would be scary.


To be honest, i could give a fuck if they take MKG with the #3 (and that's my #1 choice, with Beal a #1A) if Quincy Miller is available at 24, i'll happily take him. (Unless Hansen/Zeller are available, then there's pause) Can find serviceable shooters in F/A that will play here, get your scoring big next year, and go ball.

Unfortunately, i'm left praying MJ takes Barnes off the board so I don't have to sweat bullets.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby rk » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:56 am

Kingpin74 wrote:Whoever we pick, we're still gonna be shitty enough to have top 6-7 lottery odds again next year, right?


Probably not. There are some horrendously bad teams and plenty of owners who don't mind watching their team throw away a season. The Cavs were 11-16 when Andy got hurt and only a few games behind the Knicks for the 8th spot. If the Cavs nail the pick and get some front court depth with the other first rounder they'll arguably be in better position than a lot of teams out there. Particularly if Kyrie continues to improve. I would think they'd be closer to the 10-12 range than 6-7.

Even if they don't nail that pick and end up with Barnes or Drummond as long as Kyrie is healthy those kinds of raw talent/no BB skill guys might still be able able to play well enough to get this team into the dreaded middling range of mediocrity.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:01 am

I dunno RK, I see a far more balanced league next year (hell, the Wizards are now officially in 8th seed or die mode).

Teams like GS, etc, will be better than the Cavs (if Steph ever gets healthy), etc.

This team is easily in that 6-10 range next year with zero shot at the playoffs. The lack of offense on this roster is appaling on a level only matched by the Cats.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:10 am

Meyers Leonard! Sorry I have nothing.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby rk » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:27 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I dunno RK, I see a far more balanced league next year (hell, the Wizards are now officially in 8th seed or die mode).

Teams like GS, etc, will be better than the Cavs (if Steph ever gets healthy), etc.

This team is easily in that 6-10 range next year with zero shot at the playoffs. The lack of offense on this roster is appaling on a level only matched by the Cats.


And Washington might get that 8 spot because so many teams aren't in that mode.

I agree the Cavs have zero shot at the playoffs and don't expect Grant to do anything that will change that. And the difference between the worst 5 teams and the next 7 isn't exactly vast. But the Cavs were seperating themselves early in the season from the bottom rung because they were able to beat teams that wanted their game against the Cavs to be a game off. That, to me, is what seperates lotto teams from the truly sucktackular with the just plain sucks and it's more a product of coaching and Kyrie then anything to do with overall talent.

Maybe you're right and the NBA as a whole will be better next year keeping the Cavs from improving much but I'm way too cynical about the NBA as a whole to buy that. I also think Grant will get enough from FA on the cheap for the bench whoc can provide more offensive production if they get minutes with Kyree and whoever gets picked at 4. Just enough to close the gap of talent between other lotto teams that the coaching and closing ability of Kyrie keep the Cavs in the middle. I saw how Kyree helped the d-league guys elevate their game and have to imagine a lot of FA's will be able to get a similar boost playing with him.

But if it's Irving, Gee, MKG, TT, and Andy starting next year with the d-league coming off the bench they would definitely be my favorites for a bottom-5 finish.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:28 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:You cannot correct Barnes inability to create a shot, you can work around it.

And WTF is what you see is what you get with Beal? I don't even know what that means, beyond he is the second youngest kid in the draft and has a ton of upside.



Undersized shooting guard. Will be defensive liability in matchup cases but can spot up and can put the ball on the floor.

I don't know that barnes is so un-athletic he can't improve in that regard. Not saying he'll even be great at it, but maybe he can work on that.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby StewieG » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:45 pm

Beal isn't really undersized. Most of the SG's in the league are 6'6 or shorter. Joe Johnson's the only guy that sticks out in my mind who might give him trouble with his size, and his best years are clearly behind him.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:26 pm

Wade is undersized?

Well, fuck me!

Because Beal is the same height and built a bit thicker....
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:03 pm

rk wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:I dunno RK, I see a far more balanced league next year (hell, the Wizards are now officially in 8th seed or die mode).

Teams like GS, etc, will be better than the Cavs (if Steph ever gets healthy), etc.

This team is easily in that 6-10 range next year with zero shot at the playoffs. The lack of offense on this roster is appaling on a level only matched by the Cats.


And Washington might get that 8 spot because so many teams aren't in that mode.

I agree the Cavs have zero shot at the playoffs and don't expect Grant to do anything that will change that. And the difference between the worst 5 teams and the next 7 isn't exactly vast. But the Cavs were seperating themselves early in the season from the bottom rung because they were able to beat teams that wanted their game against the Cavs to be a game off. That, to me, is what seperates lotto teams from the truly sucktackular with the just plain sucks and it's more a product of coaching and Kyrie then anything to do with overall talent.

Maybe you're right and the NBA as a whole will be better next year keeping the Cavs from improving much but I'm way too cynical about the NBA as a whole to buy that. I also think Grant will get enough from FA on the cheap for the bench whoc can provide more offensive production if they get minutes with Kyree and whoever gets picked at 4. Just enough to close the gap of talent between other lotto teams that the coaching and closing ability of Kyrie keep the Cavs in the middle. I saw how Kyree helped the d-league guys elevate their game and have to imagine a lot of FA's will be able to get a similar boost playing with him.

But if it's Irving, Gee, MKG, TT, and Andy starting next year with the d-league coming off the bench they would definitely be my favorites for a bottom-5 finish.


The only problem with that starting 5 is that you have the same guy at the 4 and the 5, and defenses will be able to freestyle because neither frontcourt option can score.

Put a Stretch 4 or a 5 that can score in there, and I think you're basically average.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:06 pm

Losing Jamo is going to be a HUGE blow to this team, especially if they end up with MKG instead of Beal.

And I still think you are vastly underrating the league on the whole due to your familiarity with the East, the East sucks, but with Dewey still around, Washington getting better, Toronto getting better.... there are a lot of meh to bad teams that just aren't "TERRIBLE."

And the West is still pretty effin good, top to damn near the bottom.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Orenthal wrote:Meyers Leonard! Sorry I have nothing.



Good workout....
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:50 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:but with Dewey still around,



The new GM hire screams to me like Dewey is gonzo from Mouse land. Can caponomics make a T & S possible for him?
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:51 pm

No and the new GM was hand-picked by Dewey.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:51 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Wade is undersized?

Well, fuck me!

Because Beal is the same height and built a bit thicker....



I thought Beal was 6' 3" ?
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:02 pm

6'3 w/ no shoes, over 6'4" in shoes, which is how the NBA heights you read all the time are measured.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:45 am

e0y2e3 wrote:No and the new GM was hand-picked by Dewey.


Yeah. OK. If the blogosphere says so.

A kid too young for the job who was at the right hand of the Presit plan is gonna be the guy who builds around a superstar via quick fix.

Dewey will be in LA or Boston by January.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:50 am

You're not this stoopid. The Magic let Dewey fire his GM and one of the top three coaches in the league because Dewey went behind the scenes and demanded it. He may very well end up traded, but they gave him final approval in all hires and that was reported everywhere once he ran out a freaking genius like SVG.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby jb » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:53 am

e0y2e3 wrote:You're not this stoopid. The Magic let Dewey fire his GM and one of the top three coaches in the league because Dewey went behind the scenes and demanded it. He may very well end up traded, but they gave him final approval in all hires and that was reported everywhere once he ran out a freaking genius like SVG.


Lee, think it through. It make so sense at all profile - wise to be as you say.
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:04 am

JB, go read WTF happened with SVG, what Dewey demanded when he resigned and then look at the facts.

He signed off on this guy, stop fucking ignoring WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED AND WAS REPORTED BY LITERALLY EVERY NBA REPORTER OUT THERE
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Re: Cavs pick #4

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:24 am

BTW: profiling a GM on where he works as an assistant is about as stoopid a thing as you have ever done. Ferry was a huge player in the Spurs front office, he certainly brought that same mentality to Cleveland.

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