Rubber Game: Tribe at Cards 6-10-12

[Am I Here Again?]

Slackers. I go on vaca for a week and come back to you guys wanting me to start the thread? In the seventh inning? Whatever happens from this point on isn't my fault. No line-up; please deal with it.

After six innings in the books the Tribe and the Cards are tied at one run apiece. Our starting pitcher is still in. They are on their third pitcher. More details? Check the box score. Started this to basically state:

Whobaldo pitching another gem...on the road...again. OK, I'm off to look for four horsemen - have a good afterlife.

[British_Pharaoh]

Back to back gems pitched by Ubaldo, and only 1 walk given up in his last 2 starts (13.2 innings so far)

I hope it continues

[Pabo]

Yawn.

[British_Pharaoh]

It looks like Pestano doesn't work in the NL

[jb]

Vinny!

[Erie Warrior]

Easy as pie.

F'n A, nothing like making your job more difficult.

[Erie Warrior]

KIPNASTY!

[British_Pharaoh]

Witness that bad boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KippYYYYY

[jb]

"Can you believe that?"

[Dnthateonthepronk]

mvp

[Erie Warrior]

And a save by Rage.

Good on Ubaldo.

[andrew6586]

Chris Perez pukes excellence.

[Am I Here Again?]

OutSTANDing game by Ubaldo and yet no win. But he pitches two great games in a row, both away. I won't say he's the pitcher we were all hoping for, but I'm getting a bit more optimistic if this keeps up.

I'll be back to start on Tuesday. I'm never lucky when I try for two in a row. Maybe Ubaldo turning things around will rub off on me...

[skatingtripods]

I was the only one around all day but I wasn't starting the thread. I have a bad career record. Looks like we'll have to start them in the 7th from now on.

Great win. Strong series. Said this would be a measuring stick road trip for them. So far, they've been up to the task. While Chicago drops 2 of 3 at home to the lowly Astros.

Get a day off and hope for the best from the pitchers in that bandbox in Cincy.

[justmebd]

"Can you believe that?"

I like Pie!!

[motherscratcher]

OutSTANDing game by Ubaldo and yet no win. But he pitches two great games in a row, both away. I won't say he's the pitcher we were all hoping for, but I'm getting a bit more optimistic if this keeps up.

I'll be back to start on Tuesday. I'm never lucky when I try for two in a row. Maybe Ubaldo turning things around will rub off on me...

IDK, maybe it's just an anomaly. I won't pretend to know a pitchers mechanics the way guys like Pup do. But in the last two games he's started he has a 11/1 K/BB ratio, which is more like what I thought we were signing up for.

It is encouraging. I hope it's not an aberration.

[Adverb Harry]

Yeah, good to see two good games in a row by Ubaldo, against good teams, too. It's going to take a string of 3-4 more at least before I'll even consider him "fixed," but definitely an encouraging sign. If he becomes the guy he's supposed to be instead of the turd he has been, it's huge.

[pup]

I wouldn't say his mechanics are fixed, but it does look like he is more consistent with his delivery. The results definitely show it. Going to have to record his next start and slow it down to see some of the finer points, but in normal speed it looks more repeatable.

My concern with him right now is it sure seems like he is pitching backwards an awful lot. I think that catches up with him as teams make an adjustment, but it is working great right now. He seems to be just spinning a curveball up there first pitch to get ahead. A lot of 0-0 changeups and a lot of back to back changeups. That is not taking anything away from him. Good pitchers do that from time to time, to throw off the books. Not sure if it is sustainable though.

[motherscratcher]

I wouldn't say his mechanics are fixed, but it does look like he is more consistent with his delivery. The results definitely show it. Going to have to record his next start and slow it down to see some of the finer points, but in normal speed it looks more repeatable.

My concern with him right now is it sure seems like he is pitching backwards an awful lot. I think that catches up with him as teams make an adjustment, but it is working great right now. He seems to be just spinning a curveball up there first pitch to get ahead. A lot of 0-0 changeups and a lot of back to back changeups. That is not taking anything away from him. Good pitchers do that from time to time, to throw off the books. Not sure if it is sustainable though.

I'm not sure what games you are watching, but I saw pretty much the whole thing today and I don't recall him throwing the ball toward second a single time.

[pup]

I wouldn't say his mechanics are fixed, but it does look like he is more consistent with his delivery. The results definitely show it. Going to have to record his next start and slow it down to see some of the finer points, but in normal speed it looks more repeatable.

My concern with him right now is it sure seems like he is pitching backwards an awful lot. I think that catches up with him as teams make an adjustment, but it is working great right now. He seems to be just spinning a curveball up there first pitch to get ahead. A lot of 0-0 changeups and a lot of back to back changeups. That is not taking anything away from him. Good pitchers do that from time to time, to throw off the books. Not sure if it is sustainable though.

I'm not sure what games you are watching, but I saw pretty much the whole thing today and I don't recall him throwing the ball toward second a single time.

That is the type of post that makes you the Chuck Booms of TCF.

[motherscratcher]

I wouldn't say his mechanics are fixed, but it does look like he is more consistent with his delivery. The results definitely show it. Going to have to record his next start and slow it down to see some of the finer points, but in normal speed it looks more repeatable.

My concern with him right now is it sure seems like he is pitching backwards an awful lot. I think that catches up with him as teams make an adjustment, but it is working great right now. He seems to be just spinning a curveball up there first pitch to get ahead. A lot of 0-0 changeups and a lot of back to back changeups. That is not taking anything away from him. Good pitchers do that from time to time, to throw off the books. Not sure if it is sustainable though.

I'm not sure what games you are watching, but I saw pretty much the whole thing today and I don't recall him throwing the ball toward second a single time.

That is the type of post that makes you the Chuck Booms of TCF.

You take that back.

You take that back right fucking now.

[pup]

I wouldn't say his mechanics are fixed, but it does look like he is more consistent with his delivery. The results definitely show it. Going to have to record his next start and slow it down to see some of the finer points, but in normal speed it looks more repeatable.

My concern with him right now is it sure seems like he is pitching backwards an awful lot. I think that catches up with him as teams make an adjustment, but it is working great right now. He seems to be just spinning a curveball up there first pitch to get ahead. A lot of 0-0 changeups and a lot of back to back changeups. That is not taking anything away from him. Good pitchers do that from time to time, to throw off the books. Not sure if it is sustainable though.

I'm not sure what games you are watching, but I saw pretty much the whole thing today and I don't recall him throwing the ball toward second a single time.

That is the type of post that makes you the Chuck Booms of TCF.

You take that back.

You take that back right fucking now.

Can't. Now that it is out there on the internet, it has to be true.

[motherscratcher]

I wouldn't say his mechanics are fixed, but it does look like he is more consistent with his delivery. The results definitely show it. Going to have to record his next start and slow it down to see some of the finer points, but in normal speed it looks more repeatable.

My concern with him right now is it sure seems like he is pitching backwards an awful lot. I think that catches up with him as teams make an adjustment, but it is working great right now. He seems to be just spinning a curveball up there first pitch to get ahead. A lot of 0-0 changeups and a lot of back to back changeups. That is not taking anything away from him. Good pitchers do that from time to time, to throw off the books. Not sure if it is sustainable though.

I'm not sure what games you are watching, but I saw pretty much the whole thing today and I don't recall him throwing the ball toward second a single time.

That is the type of post that makes you the Chuck Booms of TCF.

You take that back.

You take that back right fucking now.

Shit.

Your right.

Dammit, now everyone's going to think I'm an idiot. Thanks a lot jerk.
Can't. Now that it is out there on the internet, it has to be true.

[skatingtripods]

He had nine 2-0 counts against Detroit. No idea how many today. Velo came back. He hit 96 and 97 a couple times, though we never really know for sure how accurate the gun is.

Thing I noticed today? He threw fewer splitters. Pitch F/X says he threw just 3 of them. Believe he bounced one of them for a wild pitch too. Had thrown 116 in his previous 11 starts. That pitch just hasn't worked for him all year long.

Seemed to have more of a four-pitch mix going today, with the occasional curve ball (8). If he starts to get his velo back, and that should happen as his mechanics get corrected, then he'll have more separation in mph between pitches. That would be beneficial for him.

[andrew6586]

I wouldn't say his mechanics are fixed, but it does look like he is more consistent with his delivery. The results definitely show it. Going to have to record his next start and slow it down to see some of the finer points, but in normal speed it looks more repeatable.

My concern with him right now is it sure seems like he is pitching backwards an awful lot. I think that catches up with him as teams make an adjustment, but it is working great right now. He seems to be just spinning a curveball up there first pitch to get ahead. A lot of 0-0 changeups and a lot of back to back changeups. That is not taking anything away from him. Good pitchers do that from time to time, to throw off the books. Not sure if it is sustainable though.

I'm not sure what games you are watching, but I saw pretty much the whole thing today and I don't recall him throwing the ball toward second a single time.

That is the type of post that makes you the Chuck Booms of TCF.

You take that back.

You take that back right fucking now.

Shit.

Your right.

Dammit, now everyone's going to think I'm an idiot. Thanks a lot jerk.
Can't. Now that it is out there on the internet, it has to be true.

Not true. I don't think anyone around here could possiy think any less of you.

[googleeph2]

I'll be at the Tues game at Reds.

Last I checked, Cueto v Gomez. Tough matchup.

Oh, and Jeanmar? Walk Votto every freaking time up. Dude is as hot as they come.

Ludwick is on a tear, but is fishing at breaking balls down.

And if Todd Frazier is up with men on base, lately he has really come through.

FYI Reds have had a year when everyone except Frazier recently (and Votto) has struggled to move runners and hit with ducks on the pond. Sounds familiar, I know.

[Prosecutor]

Maybe junking the splitter and sticking with the fastball/changeup combination was all Ubaldo needed to do. It sure has been effective the last two starts. Other than one bad pitch to Beltran he was absolutely dominant against the second highest scoring team in baseball. Combine that with Masterson and Tomlin's performances and things are looking great for the Tribe.

Another positive is that Hannahan is ready to start a rehab assignment. Sorry to say that Chiz still doesn't look ready for the bigs. He's hitting .200 and swinging at everything he sees. No walks since being called up because he's hacking at balls and marginal strikes and getting himself out. And Lopez swings at every fastball he sees above the belt and is getting himself out as well.

Once Hanny is back and Santana gets out of his slump this team will really be something to contend with. The only concern I have now is whether the league is figuring out how to hit against Lowe and Gomez.

Just can't say enough about Kipnis. Barring a complete collapse in the next three weeks he should be a shoo-in for the All-Star game.

[peeker643]

This team is a 32-27 type team all year long. If .540 ball is good enough to win the Central (and it may be) then they'll be in the race. But this team as it is today is what this team will be.

Your #1 and #2 are way too inconsistent, with all the moving parts in Ubaldo's delivery he could fall to pieces any given day and take another month to get it together.

Get used to what you're seeing. It's real. You can keep wishing for the light to go off with Santana but the longer into his career that he's a 'Me' player the more likely that's what he is too.

I wish people would stop with the ifs and buts. This team is flawed, it lacks depth and it needs the gus it was counting on to come through. If they do more often than not then they'll be competing in August and September. If not, or if they get more banged up, they're doomed.

[skatingtripods]

This team is a 32-27 type team all year long. If .540 ball is good enough to win the Central (and it may be) then they'll be in the race. But this team as it is today is what this team will be.

Your #1 and #2 are way too inconsistent, with all the moving parts in Ubaldo's delivery he could fall to pieces any given day and take another month to get it together.

Get used to what you're seeing. It's real. You can keep wishing for the light to go off with Santana but the longer into his career that he's a 'Me' player the more likely that's what he is too.

I wish people would stop with the ifs and buts. This team is flawed, it lacks depth and it needs the gus it was counting on to come through. If they do more often than not then they'll be competing in August and September. If not, or if they get more banged up, they're doomed.

None of this is wrong, but there are some justifiable ifs and buts. With Derek Lowe's latest stretch, his numbers have regressed back to his career means. There's an if statement in there about if he can stay around his career numbers. I realize they take into account years as a closer and years younger in age. But, if he can stay around these career numbers, he's a strong 3 the rest of the way.

Santana's slash line this year isn't far off his slash line at this point last year. 21 of his 27 homers came after May. With a limited sample size of a career to go on, there's nothing to do but assume he'll get better the rest of the season - and that's coming from somebody who's growing an immensely strong dislike for him as a player and as a hitter.

Your boy Damon is coming around. If he can contribute at an average level...again, a big if.

Two of the biggest problems with this team right now are that Mike Brantley is having to hit in a prime RBI spot in the order and, as you said, your 1 & 2 are completely unreliable.

I think one of those can be answered in a trade. The hard part for the Indians is that they have very few trade chips in the minors and they'll have to pay 1.5 more months of salary than they want to. Personally, I think it'd be wise for them to bite the bullet soon and make an acquisition or two before they get stuck in a bidding war because they just don't have the ammunition.

If they go get a Dempster sooner rather than later, it could make the difference in a bad division.

Your overall point the Weekend Wrap was correct. We're better off just enjoying the ride instead of thinking about what could be and what might be.

[gotribe31]

This team is a 32-27 type team all year long. If .540 ball is good enough to win the Central (and it may be) then they'll be in the race. But this team as it is today is what this team will be.

Your #1 and #2 are way too inconsistent, with all the moving parts in Ubaldo's delivery he could fall to pieces any given day and take another month to get it together.

Get used to what you're seeing. It's real. You can keep wishing for the light to go off with Santana but the longer into his career that he's a 'Me' player the more likely that's what he is too.

I wish people would stop with the ifs and buts. This team is flawed, it lacks depth and it needs the gus it was counting on to come through. If they do more often than not then they'll be competing in August and September. If not, or if they get more banged up, they're doomed.

Allow me to summarize for you; hope is not a plan.

[googleeph2]

Maybe junking the splitter and sticking with the fastball/changeup combination was all Ubaldo needed to do.

That does not account for the increase in velocity though.


The 'enjoy the ride' mantra is the most fun- that's my choice, for sure.

They have surprised me with the # of runs they have scored. Their OBP is really good, and if I were the rest of the division, I'd fear the key elements of the Indians' bullpen.

[skatingtripods]

This team is a 32-27 type team all year long. If .540 ball is good enough to win the Central (and it may be) then they'll be in the race. But this team as it is today is what this team will be.

Your #1 and #2 are way too inconsistent, with all the moving parts in Ubaldo's delivery he could fall to pieces any given day and take another month to get it together.

Get used to what you're seeing. It's real. You can keep wishing for the light to go off with Santana but the longer into his career that he's a 'Me' player the more likely that's what he is too.

I wish people would stop with the ifs and buts. This team is flawed, it lacks depth and it needs the gus it was counting on to come through. If they do more often than not then they'll be competing in August and September. If not, or if they get more banged up, they're doomed.

Allow me to summarize for you; hope is not a plan.

Hope is, however, part of the process.

[leadpipe]

Hope shmope.

Pros assured me that Zach McCalister would lead the division leading charge from the six hole in the starting rotation weeks ago.

[peeker643]

Hope shmope.

Pros assured me that Zach McCalister would lead the division leading charge from the six hole in the starting rotation weeks ago.

Yes. And when Duncan hits 30 HRs from now til the end of the season to get to his extrapolated 35 that will be a huge boost to the offense.

[Prosecutor]

I'm pretty sure I never said Duncan would hit 35 HR's this year. After all, his career high is 11.

Duncan is a pure streak hitter. Last year he hit .370 in April, .300 in August, .048 in June. He hit 7 of his 11 HR's in September. He's either hot or ice cold. The key is to get him in the lineup when he's hot.

As for McAlister, I still say there are a lot of teams that would have him as their 5th starter rather than standing by in AAA. Like the Reds, for example. Their two worst starters, who we face Weds and Thurs, have ERA's of 4.85 and 4.97. And those are National League ERA's.

The Tribe is definitely a flawed team, but some of those flaws may be spackled over soon. Hannahan has begun his rehab assignment and should be back in a few days if not sooner. He'll be an upgrade over Chiz and his .200 BA with zero walks.

Damon hit .171 in May and .278/.825 so far in June. He's only had 18 AB's in June, however, so we don't know yet whether May was his spring training and now he's going to be semi-productive, or whether he's just been lucky in June. He does look a little less helpless at the plate recently.

Santana missed some games with the concussion and since returning he's something like 1-for-21. You know that won't continue.

Looking longer term, Hafner should be back for the second half.

So there are four possibilities that should improve the offense, and that's not counting the chance that they trade for a bat.

On the down side, Brantley is hitting .357 over the last 18 games, and he won't keep that up. But overall, I think there'a a better chance the Tribe will score more runs per game the rest of the way than not.

[peeker643]

I'm pretty sure I never said Duncan would hit 35 HR's this year. After all, his career high is 11.

As for McAlister, I still say there are a lot of teams that would have him as their 5th starter rather than standing by in AAA. Like the Reds, for example. Their two worst starters, who we face Weds and Thurs, have ERA's of 4.85 and 4.97. And those are National League ERA's.

Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

by Prosecutor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:28 pm
The obvious answer is to decline the option and give him an incentive based contract with a low guarantee. No team in baseball is going to offer him more than that.

If Grady won't buy in and leaves, how about moving Brantley to center and putting Duncan in left. After the All-Star break this year Duncan is hitting .284/.933 with 7 HRs and 24 RBI in only 109 ABs. Project that to 545 ABs and you have 35 HRs and 120 RBI. That kind of production covers up a lot of shaky defense.

You don't remember half the shit you say. Or you conveniently forget.

Might wanna quit wishing and extrapolating.

[Prosecutor]

Thanks for finding that. Yeah, that was dumb. I forgot Duncan was a streak hitter and projections aren't valid with guys like that. I thought half a season was a large enough sample size, but not if it's only 109 AB's.

[Dellucci TailGator]

As for McAlister, I still say there are a lot of teams that would have him as their 5th starter rather than standing by in AAA. Like the Reds, for example. Their two worst starters, who we face Weds and Thurs, have ERA's of 4.85 and 4.97. And those are National League ERA's.

Are you legitimately trying to suggest that the Reds would start Zach McCallister over Mat Latos?

[Prosecutor]

As for McAlister, I still say there are a lot of teams that would have him as their 5th starter rather than standing by in AAA. Like the Reds, for example. Their two worst starters, who we face Weds and Thurs, have ERA's of 4.85 and 4.97. And those are National League ERA's.

Are you legitimately trying to suggest that the Reds would start Zach McCallister over Mat Latos?

Bad example. A better one would be the Twins. Here's a list of every pitcher with at least seven starts this year and their ERA's:

Diamond 1.61
Pavano 6.00
Liriano 6.45
Blackburn 7.75
Marquis 8.47

[gotribe31]

As for McAlister, I still say there are a lot of teams that would have him as their 5th starter rather than standing by in AAA. Like the Reds, for example. Their two worst starters, who we face Weds and Thurs, have ERA's of 4.85 and 4.97. And those are National League ERA's.

Are you legitimately trying to suggest that the Reds would start Zach McCallister over Mat Latos?

Bad example. A better one would be the Twins. Here's a list of every pitcher with at least seven starts this year and their ERA's:

Diamond 1.61
Pavano 6.00
Liriano 6.45
Blackburn 7.75
Marquis 8.47

So Zach McAllister would be the #5 starter on the 24-35 (worst in the AL!) Minnesota Twins. I'm struggling to figure out what point you're trying to prove here.

[Prosecutor]

So Zach McAllister would be the #5 starter on the 24-35 (worst in the AL!) Minnesota Twins. I'm struggling to figure out what point you're trying to prove here.

This is some old business. Peeker made a reference to some other thread where I said (IIRC) that one thing the Indians had going for them is that if one of their starters gets hurt (like Tomlin with the wrist injury) they were in better shape than a lot of teams because McAlister is a better "6th starter" than what a lot of teams have. I also said he probably could be the 5th starter on a lot of teams.

Naturally, any positive statement about the Indians in general and a minor leaguer in particular irritated Peeker, and he brought it up again in this thread. It also harkens back to the big brouhaha of a year-and-a-half ago when some of us were questioning why the Tribe signed veteran journeyman Chad Durbin when a promising young reliever named Vinnie Pestano seemed ready for a shot at the bigs, with Peeks strenuously defending the Durbin signing.

Hey, I tend to get optimistic, maybe overly so, about the kids on the farm. I like what I saw of McAlister, as he seemed to get better with each start. From what I can tell, Peeker doesn't think any of them are worth a shit until they show it at the big league level. I respect his POV, but we tend to get on each other's nerves a bit. Just my impression, but I think that "glass half full" people annoy the crap out of him. I have to admit I was really surprised to see him encouraging fans to stop being cynical and just enjoy the Tribe in his latest Weekend Wrap column. I had to double check the byline.

[gotribe31]

So Zach McAllister would be the #5 starter on the 24-35 (worst in the AL!) Minnesota Twins. I'm struggling to figure out what point you're trying to prove here.

This is some old business. Peeker made a reference to some other thread where I said (IIRC) that one thing the Indians had going for them is that if one of their starters gets hurt (like Tomlin with the wrist injury) they were in better shape than a lot of teams because McAlister is a better "6th starter" than what a lot of teams have. I also said he probably could be the 5th starter on a lot of teams.

Naturally, any positive statement about the Indians in general and a minor leaguer in particular irritated Peeker, and he brought it up again in this thread. It also harkens back to the big brouhaha of a year-and-a-half ago when some of us were questioning why the Tribe signed veteran journeyman Chad Durbin when a promising young reliever named Vinnie Pestano seemed ready for a shot at the bigs, with Peeks strenuously defending the Durbin signing.

Hey, I tend to get optimistic, maybe overly so, about the kids on the farm. I like what I saw of McAlister, as he seemed to get better with each start. From what I can tell, Peeker doesn't think any of them are worth a shit until they show it at the big league level. I respect his POV, but we tend to get on each other's nerves a bit. Just my impression, but I think that "glass half full" people annoy the crap out of him. I have to admit I was really surprised to see him encouraging fans to stop being cynical and just enjoy the Tribe in his latest Weekend Wrap column. I had to double check the byline.

Yeah, Peek really does suck. You have a point there at least.

[Prosecutor]

Technically it was leadpipe that brought up McAlister and Peeks just piled on with the Duncan thing. So I guess I have to retract my last post in order to be fair.

[peeker643]

Technically it was leadpipe that brought up McAlister and Peeks just piled on with the Duncan thing. So I guess I have to retract my last post in order to be fair.

To be even fairer, my point a year and a half ago was (and remains to this day) that guys like Durbin serve a purpose and that guys like Pestano aren't precluded from reaching the big leagues because you get an old man to pitch shitty innings very sporadically when you're way up or way down early in a game/someone gets hurt.

And I would think the fact that Durbin and Pestano played nearly all of last season at the big league level would highlight that point.

Tell me, how damaging was the Durbin signing to Vinnie Pestano?

Same way signing Dan Wheeler didn't preclude Nick Hagadone from being successful any more than Jeremy Accardo is precluding Nick Hagadone or Scott Barnes from pitching here.

[Prosecutor]

Point taken. The counter would be that having an "old man pitch shitty innings" early in the season in order to give the young up-and-comer more time in the minors could cost you a win or two, which could be the difference between making the playoffs or not.

In 2005 the Indians missed the playoffs by two games.

If Hagadone or Pestano is ready but you've got a Wheeler or Durbin costing you wins, it could be significant. But I'll agree that as long as you only allow these old men to pitch in games that are already lost, or if you're going to finish 15 games out of the playoffs, it's not a problem.