Is Indians Franchise Sustainable Here Long Term?

[aclayman]

Just touching on the nostalgia-based marketing again for a second. Yes, it can work in short bursts (hey, Jim Thome's back!). And I would never suggest ignoring history when you're talking about a 100 year old franchise. The problem is that they keep reinforcing the idea that the past was better than the present- an inherently cynical mindset. Long term, this is bad marketing-- because if the Indians themselves seem intent on focusing on the past, it doesn't give the fans any reason to get interested in the present. A good marketing campaign would focus more on getting to know the current players better (in a positive way, rather than when they call us a shitty sports town). The '90s teams certainly weren't promoting the glory of the '50s. It was about NEW. Casual fans might trust more in a winning record if they got to know who this Kipnis kid is. Or that Pestano guy. Use your personalities and sell them.
(And I admit I actually liked the "What If" campaign last year. But bringing it back... lazy and stupid).

[Erie Warrior]

I can take 8 people from this board and throw Randy Johnson at his best out there and have a shot at winning a game. No other sport is anything close to that.

I'm a hell of an outfielder. Solid approach at the plate with gap power. Hit me 5th.

[pup]

That is exactly the point, the Big Market whining is complete and utter bullshit, of a Colin Cowherd/Skip Bayless level.

Not at all what I said, but whatever. And I do very little whining about market, because I do not think it is an issue on the scale that OUR FRONT OFFICE makes it out to be. Cleveland fans are not "smart" enough to understand all those high level finance type of thoughts. Until the owner/president/gm/PR microphone make their stroll through all the local media telling those fans the system is not fair...right before and after approving that same system be renewed.

I think they should take one of them fancy computers and build a program that tells the fans, if we get 1,000,000 fans our payroll will be "X". 2,000,000 will be "Y". 3,000,000 will be "Z".

You obviously have a better shot year over year the more money you spend. Mistakes can be gobbles up if you want. The opportunity to make the play offs is skewed towards big markets to some degree. Winning in the playoffs is not.

[e0y2e3]

No argument and I wasn't aiming my response at you, it's JB that paraded in here and started up the early 2000 talking points.

[peeker643]

I want Andrew to write an article about a post contraction/move apocalypse where bands of 2 and 3 Tribe fans are just starving for fun and excitement. They find it by going down by the lake where scores of glassy-eyed Browns fans are easy pickings because they all just stand around the watering hole drunk out of their minds and mesmerized by the beautiful throwing motion of their perpetually 29 yr old rookie QB and his blazing fast 4th round receiving partner.

Tribe fans are angry. The Weeden watchers are slow, easily fooled and fat.

Carnage ensues.

And it's repeated every, single Sunday in the fall.

[aclayman]

Yeah, maybe this devotion thing is overrated anyway. What exactly are Browns fans devoted to? Their once mighty professional football team? Meh, maybe 20% of them. We have to remember we are in a minority within a minority. Take a walk through the Muni lot on a Sunday morning and see how easy it is to feel pride for the "smart" and "passionate" fan base of which we're a part. A football game is a big excuse to get very very drunk and very very loud with a bunch of other loud, fat assholes. The Browns go 0-16 for the next 5 years and they'd still fill the place with dudes who think Brady Quinn is still our backup QB. I'm not sure if it's something to be that proud of. It might be more that Cleveland has a slight problem and could use a mass intervention.

[gotribe31]

I can take 8 people from this board and throw Randy Johnson at his best out there and have a shot at winning a game. No other sport is anything close to that.

That's an idea...we should have an annual TCF baseball game. Or softball if people are too old. We already do a golf outing, and that's way more complicated than just getting 18-25 assholes out on a saturday afternoon in the summer.

[Erie Warrior]

That's an idea...we should have an annual TCF baseball game. Or softball if people are too old. We already do a golf outing, and that's way more complicated than just getting 18-25 assholes out on a saturday afternoon in the summer.

The Player of the Game should get a NRI to Spring Training.

"You can’t leave first until you chug a beer. And then scoring, you have to chug a beer. You have to chug a beer after all odd-numbered innings. Oh, and the 4th inning is the beer inning."

[skatingtripods]

I don't see how they could possibly be considered unsustainable. Obviously, it's a bitch to get downtown because so much of the population with disposable income lives 25+ minutes from downtown. That makes weeknight games nearly impossible to get a good draw for. That's going to hurt attendance and the freeway system around here is a joke.

The corporate angle is probably the biggest issue. Suites are empty. It would have been unthinkable 15 years ago to make one suite free as the "Social Suite". The lower box seats certainly do suffer, but the lower reserved and mezzanine are generally drawing well. The Indians would be wise to re-draft the ticket prices even further and work cheaper seats into the lower bowl. The upper bowl isn't sectioned off as much as it used to be and you can sit halfway up in 554 right behind home plate for $8-12.

Like Andrew, I liked the "What If" marketing campaign in 2011 and to use it again does scream of laziness, especially when the chief commercial has Lofton, Thome, and Alomar Jr. in it. I think the promotional department sucks. There are no giveaways worth going out of your way for this season and last year was a lot of the same.

They have to find better business partnerships. If casinogoers show their Total Rewards Players Card, they should get a buy one, get one free ticket. Show your game ticket and get 20% off your tab at Panini's. Or the Lizard. Or Harry Buffalo. Work with the E. 4th restaurants or the Corner Alley. You have to make it a total experience to draw people. If you get people thinking that they're getting real value for their dollar, they'll show up. Helping other downtown restaurants and businesses helps you as well.

My fiancee was talking with me yesterday about how much better of a job the Q does with the in-game experience. There are all kinds of stations where kids can make their own signs. There's face and hair painting. They have injured player autograph signings at intermission. Obviously, baseball has no intermission, but do some sort of post-game signing. Get the players interacting with the fans face-to-face. Hell, make it a TBD player. Use a bullpen guy who didn't pitch. A starter who didn't throw at all that day. A bench player.

Twitter has been great for the Indians and some of their players have really ran with it. Build off of that.

Unfortunately, although it works for me, just being there for a 3-hour baseball game and then going home isn't sucking people in.

Quite frankly, I just think that a lot of their marketing/promotions/game operations staff is lazy and uninspired. And it shows. When I was at PNC, the scoreboard graphics were really cool, the in-game entertainment was a lot better and they were showing pre-game videos of concerts that they've had there before. The Indians use the same recycled video clips and really don't take advantage of that tremendous scoreboard.

They're hurting, but they're not in danger of ever leaving. MLB would never allow it.

[peeker643]

Agree with everything (and much of that line of thought is in the article that'll go up at 5). But please.... never...EVER say that last paragraph again.

They've been close before. A few times during my lifetime.

And the one, rock solid, "no way they could ever go" foundation of this city already went.

You're being way too trusting and assuming way too much to believe that, much lesss say it out loud.

I don't see how they could possibly be considered unsustainable. Obviously, it's a bitch to get downtown because so much of the population with disposable income lives 25+ minutes from downtown. That makes weeknight games nearly impossible to get a good draw for. That's going to hurt attendance and the freeway system around here is a joke.

The corporate angle is probably the biggest issue. Suites are empty. It would have been unthinkable 15 years ago to make one suite free as the "Social Suite". The lower box seats certainly do suffer, but the lower reserved and mezzanine are generally drawing well. The Indians would be wise to re-draft the ticket prices even further and work cheaper seats into the lower bowl. The upper bowl isn't sectioned off as much as it used to be and you can sit halfway up in 554 right behind home plate for $8-12.

Like Andrew, I liked the "What If" marketing campaign in 2011 and to use it again does scream of laziness, especially when the chief commercial has Lofton, Thome, and Alomar Jr. in it. I think the promotional department sucks. There are no giveaways worth going out of your way for this season and last year was a lot of the same.

They have to find better business partnerships. If casinogoers show their Total Rewards Players Card, they should get a buy one, get one free ticket. Show your game ticket and get 20% off your tab at Panini's. Or the Lizard. Or Harry Buffalo. Work with the E. 4th restaurants or the Corner Alley. You have to make it a total experience to draw people. If you get people thinking that they're getting real value for their dollar, they'll show up. Helping other downtown restaurants and businesses helps you as well.

My fiancee was talking with me yesterday about how much better of a job the Q does with the in-game experience. There are all kinds of stations where kids can make their own signs. There's face and hair painting. They have injured player autograph signings at intermission. Obviously, baseball has no intermission, but do some sort of post-game signing. Get the players interacting with the fans face-to-face. Hell, make it a TBD player. Use a bullpen guy who didn't pitch. A starter who didn't throw at all that day. A bench player.

Twitter has been great for the Indians and some of their players have really ran with it. Build off of that.

Unfortunately, although it works for me, just being there for a 3-hour baseball game and then going home isn't sucking people in.

Quite frankly, I just think that a lot of their marketing/promotions/game operations staff is lazy and uninspired. And it shows. When I was at PNC, the scoreboard graphics were really cool, the in-game entertainment was a lot better and they were showing pre-game videos of concerts that they've had there before. The Indians use the same recycled video clips and really don't take advantage of that tremendous scoreboard.

They're hurting, but they're not in danger of ever leaving. MLB would never allow it.

[skatingtripods]

Agree with everything (and much of that line of thought is in the article that'll go up at 5). But please.... never...EVER say that last paragraph again.

They've been close before. A few times during my lifetime.

And the one, rock solid, "no way they could ever go" foundation of this city already went.

You're being way too trusting and assuming way too much to believe that, much lesss say it out loud.

Cities aren't lining up to build 40,000 seat venues for baseball. A 19,000 seat venue for an indoor winter sport is a lot different. Easier to fill dates and not useless for 6 months a year.

There's a very shortlist of destinations that MLB would allow a move to and I doubt any of them would be lining up to take the Indians.

Call it naivete if you want.

[cozmeesah]

As far as the "stadium-experience" that Adam is talking about...

I don't have a problem with the scoreboard graphics or videos, those are usually kind of cool. Especially the pre-game video. Though, yes, they do use some of them far too often. I was glad to see that they'd changed the pre-game stadium rules video, in lieu of the one that ends with Napoleon Dynamite yet again. Even if it is just all the players reciting them, at least it's different. But they started showing the Napoleon Dynamite one again for the 2nd time the rules are recited. It's not funny on it's third straight season.

Another thing, that Ryan dude and the lame-ass games that they do with him could go. They're embarrassingly stupid. Show (& record) more of those "getting to know the player" videos. Like when they ask them all would they rather see a Miley Cyrus or Justin Bieber show, fun things like that. I enjoy those very much. Make some funny commercials or videos with the players & coaches. These guys are silly, they could come up with something.

Change up the hot dog race as well. I would love it if they could do minor-league like dizzy bat races and such. Like they do at Canal Park. I don't know if they're even allowed in the MLB or not, but those are infinitely more entertaining than the "Plinko"-type games they do now. Even if they'd have to do them in the concourse instead of on the field, it'd be better than "Deal or No Deal."

Slider also does barely anything anymore. He used to at least do somewhat entertaining things. Now he just stands up there and moves his belly around some, or tries to tackle Ketchup. So I'm not sure if it's just a new guy they have playing him or what. I know that years ago (I'm talking early 00's here) he used to be the guy who'd played Zippy at Akron and won the Mascot of the Year contest like 3 times in a row. He was funny.

Totally agree on the point about not doing enough partnership with area businesses. Sure, everything is "sponsored" by some place, but what good does that do besides give the team some advertising $$$ ? It doesn't get more butts in the seats. The ONE thing they've done well with in this area is the Subway deal. Every time I'm at Subway I see someone taking one of those Extreme Fan Zone things.

[Kingpin74]

Agree with everything (and much of that line of thought is in the article that'll go up at 5). But please.... never...EVER say that last paragraph again.

They've been close before. A few times during my lifetime.

And the one, rock solid, "no way they could ever go" foundation of this city already went.

You're being way too trusting and assuming way too much to believe that, much lesss say it out loud.

I agree with Peeker that we should never say never, but our saving grace here may be the lack of other suitor baseball cities around the country. Where would they go? Charlotte? Nashville? Vegas? All the cities with recent population growth haven't demonstrated much of an interest in baseball (and as was noted earlier, our region's population still matches up with many of them) and there isn't someone sitting there who got railroaded out of their team like Seattle is in the NBA. Plus it's like pulling teeth to move a baseball team anyway. I think the Nationals are the only one since the Senators vacated Washington for Texas in the 70's.

The lack of corporate dollars are a problem as Lee noted, but it would have to get a LOT worse for a move of the team to enter the conversation. I think Tripods is right in that a little better marketing/PR effort could go a long way. I attend a lot of games in different pro and college sports and while I'm a diehard who doesn't really care either way, what the Indians do isn't up to par when you're trying to draw casual people. I don't have illusions of perpetual sellouts ever returning, but the Cavs were awful and had 15,000 showing up nightly for ridiculously overpriced tickets. You can sit 10 rows behind the plate at a Tribe game for the same price as a crappy upper level seat at the Q, and NBA basketball is played in generic arenas where nice summer nights are in play. Their marketing/in game whatever department is doing something right, even if it's simply the perception they've created. I think the Tribe could get up to 20K on weeknights and 30-35K on weekends with more consistent play and a better in-stadium experience, all of which can be solved by better management. No reason we can't replicate the success in similar sized midwest cities.

[jb]

And Tampa and Minny have been relevant in the MLB for most of the last decade, with occasional break-outs from Cleveland and Oakland.

Sure there are windows and sure it is easier for the big markets, but baseball is far FAR more level and people pretend. Just because people want to pretend like St. Louis being the 20th biggest market matters, it doesn't.

Hell, Minny fell off a cliff when they started spending money.

And I wasn't aware the last decade when back to 1995.

Tradition-wise StLouis are the Yankees of the NL. Arguably the best MLB city in America. They act like a much bigger BB market.

[motherscratcher]

Just touching on the nostalgia-based marketing again for a second. Yes, it can work in short bursts (hey, Jim Thome's back!). And I would never suggest ignoring history when you're talking about a 100 year old franchise. The problem is that they keep reinforcing the idea that the past was better than the present- an inherently cynical mindset. Long term, this is bad marketing-- because if the Indians themselves seem intent on focusing on the past, it doesn't give the fans any reason to get interested in the present. A good marketing campaign would focus more on getting to know the current players better (in a positive way, rather than when they call us a shitty sports town). The '90s teams certainly weren't promoting the glory of the '50s. It was about NEW. Casual fans might trust more in a winning record if they got to know who this Kipnis kid is. Or that Pestano guy. Use your personalities and sell them.
(And I admit I actually liked the "What If" campaign last year. But bringing it back... lazy and stupid).

That's interesting, man. That's fuckin interesting.

[motherscratcher]

And Tampa and Minny have been relevant in the MLB for most of the last decade, with occasional break-outs from Cleveland and Oakland.

Sure there are windows and sure it is easier for the big markets, but baseball is far FAR more level and people pretend. Just because people want to pretend like St. Louis being the 20th biggest market matters, it doesn't.

Hell, Minny fell off a cliff when they started spending money.

And I wasn't aware the last decade when back to 1995.

Idiots pretending that it is the only thing that matters, and that it is impossible to win unless you are in a "big market" is no more or less stupid than pretending that it doesn't matter at all.

It's a factor.

And you're right, Minny fell off a cliff when they started spending. And they fell off that cliff in part because, unlike NY and Boston, they are not equiped to absorb those crazy contracts. We'll see where Cinci is in a few years.

And the point isn't that you can't win unless you spend. You obviously can. But it's harder. Yes, Texas and TB are fantastic models of what a team can do when build properly and with some luck to boot. But, what happens to them in 3-5 years? Maybe they are smart/lucky enough to sustain their current success. Maybe one or both are rebuilding. But I'll bet you where the Yankees and Red Sox will be...right in the thick of it with a great chance at teh post season. They don't rebuild. They have an occasional blip.

To pretend it isn't a factor and doesn't matter is just silly.

[mattvan1]

I want Andrew to write an article about a post contraction/move apocalypse where bands of 2 and 3 Tribe fans are just starving for fun and excitement. They find it by going down by the lake where scores of glassy-eyed Browns fans are easy pickings because they all just stand around the watering hole drunk out of their minds and mesmerized by the beautiful throwing motion of their perpetually 29 yr old rookie QB and his blazing fast 4th round receiving partner.

Tribe fans are angry. The Weeden watchers are slow, easily fooled and fat.

Carnage ensues.

And it's repeated every, single Sunday in the fall.

Yeah, maybe this devotion thing is overrated anyway. What exactly are Browns fans devoted to? Their once mighty professional football team? Meh, maybe 20% of them. We have to remember we are in a minority within a minority. Take a walk through the Muni lot on a Sunday morning and see how easy it is to feel pride for the "smart" and "passionate" fan base of which we're a part. A football game is a big excuse to get very very drunk and very very loud with a bunch of other loud, fat assholes. The Browns go 0-16 for the next 5 years and they'd still fill the place with dudes who think Brady Quinn is still our backup QB. I'm not sure if it's something to be that proud of. It might be more that Cleveland has a slight problem and could use a mass intervention.

Wow. Tribe fan be hatin'.

[peeker643]

And Tampa and Minny have been relevant in the MLB for most of the last decade, with occasional break-outs from Cleveland and Oakland.

Sure there are windows and sure it is easier for the big markets, but baseball is far FAR more level and people pretend. Just because people want to pretend like St. Louis being the 20th biggest market matters, it doesn't.

Hell, Minny fell off a cliff when they started spending money.

And I wasn't aware the last decade when back to 1995.

Idiots pretending that it is the only thing that matters, and that it is impossible to win unless you are in a "big market" is no more or less stupid than pretending that it doesn't matter at all.

It's a factor.

And you're right, Minny fell off a cliff when they started spending. And they fell off that cliff in part because, unlike NY and Boston, they are not equiped to absorb those crazy contracts. We'll see where Cinci is in a few years.

And the point isn't that you can't win unless you spend. You obviously can. But it's harder. Yes, Texas and TB are fantastic models of what a team can do when build properly and with some luck to boot. But, what happens to them in 3-5 years? Maybe they are smart/lucky enough to sustain their current success. Maybe one or both are rebuilding. But I'll bet you where the Yankees and Red Sox will be...right in the thick of it with a great chance at teh post season. They don't rebuild. They have an occasional blip.

To pretend it isn't a factor and doesn't matter is just silly.

You know what else is a factor that needs to be discussed? The $2billion TV deal the Rangers signed last fall.

The Rangers can buy who and what they want.

[peeker643]

Please. I can just as easily be found around either camp. I ain't hatin'. I'm admitting and cleansing and coming clean.

I have been a Cleveland Browns addict and I have a problem.

If I had to play Sophie's Choice (another thread idea as times have changed since last time we did it) I'd kill the Cavs then the Browns in that order. I wouldn't pull the plug on baseball because I couldn't.

I want Andrew to write an article about a post contraction/move apocalypse where bands of 2 and 3 Tribe fans are just starving for fun and excitement. They find it by going down by the lake where scores of glassy-eyed Browns fans are easy pickings because they all just stand around the watering hole drunk out of their minds and mesmerized by the beautiful throwing motion of their perpetually 29 yr old rookie QB and his blazing fast 4th round receiving partner.

Tribe fans are angry. The Weeden watchers are slow, easily fooled and fat.

Carnage ensues.

And it's repeated every, single Sunday in the fall.

Yeah, maybe this devotion thing is overrated anyway. What exactly are Browns fans devoted to? Their once mighty professional football team? Meh, maybe 20% of them. We have to remember we are in a minority within a minority. Take a walk through the Muni lot on a Sunday morning and see how easy it is to feel pride for the "smart" and "passionate" fan base of which we're a part. A football game is a big excuse to get very very drunk and very very loud with a bunch of other loud, fat assholes. The Browns go 0-16 for the next 5 years and they'd still fill the place with dudes who think Brady Quinn is still our backup QB. I'm not sure if it's something to be that proud of. It might be more that Cleveland has a slight problem and could use a mass intervention.

Wow. Tribe fan be hatin'.

[motherscratcher]

Please. I can just as easily be found around either camp. I ain't hatin'. I'm admitting and cleansing and coming clean.

I have been a Cleveland Browns addict and I have a problem.

If I had to play Sophie's Choice (another thread idea as times have changed since last time we did it) I'd kill the Cavs then the Browns in that order. I wouldn't pull the plug on baseball because I couldn't.

Jeez, if I had to Sophie's Choice 'em...I guess I'd do it in that same order.

[Govbarney]

Is it sustainable...? No probably not, but honestly what in this country is anymore? The American way as we know it is on borrowed time.

[jerryroche]

One word: players.

Talk about marketing/PR, condiment races and exploding scoreboards until you're blue in the face. But Tribe fans did the 455 because they wanted to see Thome and Ramirez and Belle pound the shit out of the ball night after night.

You get 10,000 to 15,000 when you've got a line-up that takes great pride in drawing walks. Get a couple Paul Bunyans in the three and four holes, and you'll be drawing 35,000 a night. And THAT would be sustainable!

[leadpipe]

It's sustainable because we have zero REAL idea of MLB finances.

Need proof? List another billion dollar enterprise in which million dollar owners allow an "unfair" system, and I'd think we'd all agree, an unlevel playing field is unfair.

Lotta good points on here, and I'd tend to say the crux of the attendance argument lies in what eo and peeker are discussing - corporate money, and the fact money made in Cleveland, doesn't live in Cleveland.

At the end of the day, revenue sharing and all the other closed book bullshit - Dolan is raking. Would he rake more with higher attendance - sure. But, if he gets dipleased he can sell it to the next sucker billionaire who will be in line to purchase.

Sports teams can look like a horible investment, but the line will be filled with guys who have alterior motives than business.

[e0y2e3]

I'm amazed people are consistently taking my point that the MLB does allow small markets windows whenever they are built correctly and making it some ridiculous statement where I pretended that it isn't easier for large markets to overcome bullshit mistakes.

Sweet geezes.

And I don't give two shits what the Rangers make now, that team was rebuilt void of money.

Also worth noting, is Dolan hadn't ridiculously overpaid for the Indians I think you would have seen more spending and a far less ridiculous link between attendance and payroll. People forget that Jacobs bent Dolan's dumb ass over with the sale price (and Dolan also carried the highest payrolls ever during his early years). Dolan has historicaly been running the Indians to make back the money he blew.

[neoleo]

Also worth noting, is Dolan hadn't ridiculously overpaid for the Indians I think you would have seen more spending and a far less ridiculous link between attendance and payroll. People forget that Jacobs bent Dolan's dumb ass over with the sale price (and Dolan also carried the highest payrolls ever during his early years). Dolan has historicaly been running the Indians to make back the money he blew.

Great point. People forget how high those payrolls were then. A great business move by Jacobs.

[Spin]

I have thought of that too, but while we worry about the future of baseball in Cleveland, there are reports about every year in financial magazines listing the Tribe among the most profitable baseball franchises.

And I will N E V E R begrudge Dolan for making a profit. That's the American dream. That's the American way. I'm glad he does. Because that guarantees the team's sustainability in this city in this economy.

The Tribe makes a nice profit, and I am glad they do.

Should more fans be in the seats with the team in first place? Yes. Have I gone yet? My compressed school schedule and work schedule will not allow. But I already have tickets for games when my school is done in 3 weeks. So the short answer is "yes".


Can a small market team compete in today's Major League Baseball?

Let's ask St. Louis. San Francisco. Tampa Bay (talk about poor attendance...).

Whether or not the management will ever assemble a team capable of winning the World Series is a completely different topic.

But I firmly believe this franchise is sustainable, and I believe small market teams can (and sometimes do) win it all.

[motherscratcher]

I'm amazed people are consistently taking my point that the MLB does allow small markets windows whenever they are built correctly and making it some ridiculous statement where I pretended that it isn't easier for large markets to overcome bullshit mistakes.

Sweet geezes.

I'm amazed people are consistently taking my point that MLB allows large markets to overcome bullshit mistakes and making it some ridiculous statement where I pretended that it doesn't allow small markets windows whenever they are built correctly .

Sweet geezes.

[Hikohadon]

View from someone that could care less about baseball...

1. Television and multimedia technology. When you can stay at home and watch sports in HD/3D on your huge TV in the comfort of your own home where your beers are cheap and you don't have to pay for parking and you don't have to worry about driving drunk... one could argue that the home watching experience will eventually kill stadium attendance for every sport.

2. No tailgate culture. While baseball and basketball attendance can be fickle due to many reasons, football attendance in towns like Cleveland remains solid because the game is an Event. It's on a weekend, so you can get there early, eat and drink with your friends, etc. Don't know how many times I've met up with some friends at a tailgate just to have a few beers and then ended up buying a ticket after said beers.

3. Too many games. As has been pointed out before, attending a home football game is 1/8 of the entire season. The games seem more important and, hey, there's only 8, so you don't get too many opportunities (especially before they annual November/December swoon is enacted). 41 home games? 81 home games? I'll just go some other time.

4. Stupid financial system. The way the NFL is set up, if you have a competent front office, you can win, no matter what market you're in. Even cheapskate owners have to spend up to the cap. So despite the fact that a team like the Browns is miserable, there is always that deeply-buried knowledge/hope that if they just make a few good decisions, they can turn it around.

Conversely, a team like the Indians can be in first place and people will yawn b/c their view (right or wrong) is that the team is made up of scrubs and mid-level players that don't have nearly the collective talent to win long-term and will fade down the stretch to a vastly more-talented Tigers team just like they did last year. When one team in a division can so drastically outspend another, it really tries the fans' suspension of disbelief (especially here). Teams like the Yankees may not win every year, but they have a shot every year. Teams like the Indians have to hit the lottery.

5. No trust in ownership. Unlike the 90's, these owners have a reputation for getting rid of all the stars (since they won't pay them). Fans get disenchanted b/c even when a prospect rises up and becomes a really great player, you don't get attached to him b/c you know he'll be gone, likely traded away for some other prospects. This method causes you to have to bat like .750 to build a championship team, and if you instead bat .250 (or lower), it's a struggle to maintain any consistency. The fans are sick of this approach and these owners, and it might be the pinnacle reason behind the low attendance - if an owner that promised to spend big money bought the team, I think fans would turn out in droves just to support HIM/HER.

6. The Cleveland Curse. From all that has happened over the last decade, from the Dolans taking over and providing the lackluster results that come with bargain-basement ownership, the Cavs getting buttfucked by the Decision, and the Browns' laws-of-physics defying eternal suckitude, the fanbase of Cleveland has become so frustrated that their natural defense has switched to apathy. And if they're going to abandon their defense mechanism and put their hearts back on the line again, it better be for a DAMN good reason. Being in first place in May isn't going to do it. It's like the Browns being 2-1 and tied for first - only the diehard optimists are going to get excited.

7. Economy. This one I think is overblown, since the movie theaters are full all the damn time and going to the local strip-mall is like rush hour in Rome, but it can't be denied it's a factor too.

8. The Thinning of Cleveland. Many cities have a vibrant downtown culture, punctuated by a large number of people that actually live there. They also have ample public transportation to and from the stadiums. From a population perspective, NE Ohio has plenty enough people to sustain 3 franchises (ranked 18th, about the same as Miami/Ft. Lauderdale, Denver, & Orlando/Daytona Beach). But the population is not central, rather spread over a fairly large area punctuated by several smaller cities. Myself, living south of Akron, Cleveland is an hour drive, parking (and the fee), and watch what you drink because you have to drive an hour home. Not like I can call someone to come pick me up. Not like I can jump on the Akron-to-Cleveland L Train. So it becomes too much hassle, especially on a week night.

I'm not saying I agree with all of these reasons, nor am I saying that all of them are huge factors, but rather a number of perceived reasons that affect the fanbase as a whole.

[FUDU]

BTW nice thread peeker. Lots of interesting perspectives.

[motherscratcher]

Yeah ^^Hiko

[FUDU]

7. Economy. This one I think is overblown, since the movie theaters are full all the damn time and going to the local strip-mall is like rush hour in Rome, but it can't be denied it's a factor too.

I really don't think it is too overblown Hiko.

I mean how often do you have to pay to park at the movie's, or the mall.

I know there are some value options for tribe tix, but if you're a dad and want to take your 3 sons to a game, you're spending $75 at least, if your tank is already full.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

I think the biggest issue is the lack of die-hard baseball fans.

I agree.

It may just be my situation but personally all the die hard Indians fans in my family are either in their 90's or dead. Either way they cant get to the games anymore. Thats 7 people who used to attend anywhere from about 15-20 games a year since the 1950s that are not going. To me age also factors into the equation.


And its getting increasingly harder to replenish the fan base because baseball isn't as sexy or exciting to the mainstream as the NFL or NBA nor are we fielding a CONSISTENTLY competitive playoff team in order to drum up sustained interest in order to keep new fans.

[Hikohadon]

7. Economy. This one I think is overblown, since the movie theaters are full all the damn time and going to the local strip-mall is like rush hour in Rome, but it can't be denied it's a factor too.

I really don't think it is too overblown Hiko.

I mean how often do you have to pay to park at the movie's, or the mall.

I know there are some value options for tribe tix, but if you're a dad and want to take your 3 sons to a game, you're spending $75 at least, if your tank is already full.

Yeah, but taking 3 sons to a 3D movie is gonna be $50 (at least) if you get popcorn, etc.

I didn't live here in the 90's - was it really that much cheaper during the sellout runs? Or did people have that much more disposable income? That's what I think is overblown.

I'm not saying the cost isn't prohibitive - I just think the difference between now and the 90's is that fans considered that team worth the bite in the wallet.

And when I talk about economy, I'm talking about how it affects Joe Fan, not corporate sponsors/club seats/any of that.

[bookelly]

Great thread. My 2 cents;

- The Indians marketing department is 90% geared towards kids and families. Every-damn-time you see Katie in the crowd she's hawking some new family friendly ticket deal. When school lets out, the attendance is gonna skyrocket. The FO needs to figure out a way to get butts in the seats in April and May, September too if your not in the hunt (that 5th WC should help a lot of markets with this.) Which brings me to...

-Giant market, already has stadium, and has a fanatical baseball base. Play a weeklong series in Puerto Rico in April and May, maybe one in September. You add a 4 million+ fan base (plus all the other fans in the Caribbean that would love you) to the coffers. Plus the nice weather. Schedule the first series during Easter break for a nice family vacation (Puerto Rico rocks), and the one in May is interleague (Miami anyone? Mets?)

Just throwing this out there. I know they tried it with Montreal and the players complained it was to much travel, but they played 1/3 of the games there, I'm talking 14 - 21 games.

[FUDU]

7. Economy. This one I think is overblown, since the movie theaters are full all the damn time and going to the local strip-mall is like rush hour in Rome, but it can't be denied it's a factor too.

I really don't think it is too overblown Hiko.

I mean how often do you have to pay to park at the movie's, or the mall.

I know there are some value options for tribe tix, but if you're a dad and want to take your 3 sons to a game, you're spending $75 at least, if your tank is already full.

Yeah, but taking 3 sons to a 3D movie is gonna be $50 (at least) if you get popcorn, etc.

I didn't live here in the 90's - was it really that much cheaper during the sellout runs? Or did people have that much more disposable income? That's what I think is overblown.

I'm not saying the cost isn't prohibitive - I just think the difference between now and the 90's is that fans considered that team worth the bite in the wallet.

And when I talk about economy, I'm talking about how it affects Joe Fan, not corporate sponsors/club seats/any of that.

Interesting you bring up a 3D movie : 2D, when talking about watching a baseball team : good baseball team.

Anyway, yeah it was cheaper during the 90's run, regardless of today's $ v. 90's $. But we do agree on a big difference being the 90's teams being more worth the bite compared to the team these past few years. Which is what I mentioned earlier or in different thread on same topic. People WILL prioritize this team when the team earns that justification.

As I've said all along and still maintain, tons of reasons each person goes to or doesn't go to games.

Plus I don't quite get the whole "I can stay home or go to a local sports bar and watch a Browns game on HDTV, for 1/2 as much, and enjoy myself" and how the same doesn't apply to a baseball game.

But whatever.

[RedDawg53]

Couple things for me;

1) I have a 3 y/o daughter and a career
2) gas, I live about 100 miles away
3) parking
4) food/drinks.. I even eat before I get to the game
5) By the time the game is over and driving home for 1hr 30m, it's 12am-1am. Then I have to get up for work at 6am.
6) Oh and the tckets for where I sit are like $24-30.

I will not ever again pay to sit close. The people sitting in front of you are ignorant of the people behind them--when some dumbass decides to get up to get a hotdog a moment before the pitcher throws.... and of course several people stand all at once to let the person out....

[cappy1920]

This is an excellent topic and I've thought about it all day today...what a sad day that would be if the Indians packed up and left...

Anyway, the older I get, the more jaded I get and the less that I care about MLB, and all pro sports, although there aren't too many days/evenings that I don't have the Indians game on radio in the background and the Cleveland fan game forum open.

I think that there are a few reasons why we don't go to the games any longer. One is the structure of the league, where any good, established player will never come to Cleveland as free agent, whether he be homegrown or not. This also happened in the glory years. For whatever reason, we were never able to get that one great ballplayer to put us over the top. McDowell and Seitzer and Finley and Murray were all a little or a lot past their heyday. And our market size keeps us from offering top dollar to the top free agents. We may offer a lot of money, but the players won't be the best of the best. There's usually a reason why they sign with us. Either they're trying to prove themselves coming back from injury, or they're 197 years old. I don't believe that we offered the most to Beltran and Pena to come here. I believe that there was a gentleman's agreement where our front office asked how much those guys were going to get and we pretended to offer a little higher. I mean, we have plenty of money, really, we could have offered a couple or three million more to one free agent, and they'd have to say yes because of the player's union.

The other is that it sure did seem like MLB didn't want us to win the series in 95 (Maddox and Glavine's strike zones were a foot outside) and CC and Fausto's strike zone in 07 was about two inches squared. Why didn't our veteran pitchers get any calls in some of those games? Maybe I'm a little biased...

Also, I think the fans would give the Indians the benefit of the doubt, if only we'd win one championship. I think that the monkey would be off all of our backs and we'd be more apt to go to the games. Right now, we're fed up and only want to go if there's a good chance that we'd win one. We might be in first place now, but no sane fan thinks that this team is championship material. We do have a couple of pieces there, but our hitting is really suspect and two of our pitchers are winning games without any idea where their pitches are going...

Sorry I wrote so much. I also agree with several other points from other posters...

[googleeph2]

Random thoughts:

I need the Indians to be there in 15-20 yrs or so when I retire. There are babies being born right now who need to be winning games at the Jake (yeah, that's what I called it).

Can't take kids to pro football games any more- way too many people who are way too drunk.

Tribe definitely could leave. As with any buyer, it only takes one. But these days, there would be ultimatims first- like Fay Vincent's when the Jake needed to be built.

I contacted the Indians multiple times prior to the 2011 season. Left messages that I was doing a baseball history series for tcf. That STO, their broadcast partner, was on board with support such as linking the articles. That I am a fan, who wants to look fondly at Tribe history; nothing negative. Wanted to have access to former players. Invited them to see what I had done so far. Never got a return call. or email, from them. Man, I'm getting mad about that again all of a sudden. The Browns are veerrrry accomodating with that kind of access.

Never, never, never allow 'home' games to be played away from Cleveland. SLippery slope/genie out of the bottle thing.

Milwaukee's tailgate culture is incredible. Think OSU football, with the corporate/organizational tents, pig roasts, etc. Maybe we should go and uh, study that success story.

The financial system in baseball blows my mind. I thought that when the owners last locked out the players (1994?), there was going to be some leveling of the field. Still cannot believe they have not figured out a way. Tells me they don't want to. My idea all along: may be naive, but- why not reshuffle the baseball divisions every year, according to gross annual payroll? The big markets will mostly be in the same division, etc. Then you let them play the unbalanced schedule. The AL Central is kind of like that this year anyway, I realize. I know travel will be an objection- I don't really care about that.

[peeker643]

Not that it matters because money moves mountains, but a response to my article on Twitter said Hoynes noted that because the Indians are a charter member of the AL there would be some hoops to jump through for them to relocate.

Not sure if it's true or what it involves (again, enough $$$ makes it moot).

Hell, I think I'm most stunned that Hoynes actually wrote something factual and was awake long enough to do so.

[googleeph2]

Not that it matters because money moves mountains, but a response to my article on Twitter said Hoynes noted that because the Indians are a charter member of the AL there would be some hoops to jump through for them to relocate.

Not sure if it's true or what it involves (again, enough $$$ makes it moot).

Hell, I think I'm most stunned that Hoynes actually wrote something factual and was awake long enough to do so.

Yeah, your skepticism is probably right on target. The other owners would certainly stand firmly on principal. Eg. it would require a super majority vote after debating whether to split a huge relocation fee, to be paid by the relocating owner, with money from the tax-paying smokers and drinkers of Nashville or wherever.

[pod2dawg]

Cuyahoga County has lost 16% population since 1995 and 17% drop in employment since 2000.

Magnifies all the fine points noted by above posters.

[skatingtripods]

Not that it matters because money moves mountains, but a response to my article on Twitter said Hoynes noted that because the Indians are a charter member of the AL there would be some hoops to jump through for them to relocate.

Wonder which writer Hoynes stole that little nugget from.

[bookelly]

I agree that it is a slippery slope, and the league would never allow the Indians to move. But a handful of sellout games early in the season can't hurt, especially if they modernize the stadium in San Juan as has been discussed. The Mets played the Marlins there recently and hated it.

Anyway, look for attendance to jump after school gets out. That's what they get for marketing the team this way, 2 1/2 months of doldrums.

/FTR - I think they should reach out to various groups - college kids for example, a put them in a special area separate from the children. Make it a party by lowering the beer price that night (tho not to .10).

[Am I Here Again?]

Hitting on a few points:

1) Possibility of game-day tailgating. I googled the Brewers stadium and yup, there is a BIG parking lot the size of my town just outside of home plate area. Where in downtown Cleveland can you get an area like that near the Jake? I remember promos for some sort of "something Alley" in the space between the Jake and the Gund (FWIW I've lived in MA for 12 years and I still call flavored carbonated beverages "pop") last season. Did the idea work? If so they might want to market that heavily every weekend home series during the summer.

2) IMO the likelihood of an alternate permanent, non-Cleveland location for the Tribe seems slim. Never say never, but with the Tribe being one of a handful of teams that have been continuously operating in their founding city since the beginning of the AL it would take more than Ersay's moving company to get them out under cover of darkness.

3) I would think that the Dolans are making money on the Tribe. However, just like the housing market running up to the bust years starting mid-2000s, the Dolans bought at the top of the market. I'm sure the Tribe is still worth at least the price they paid, but they aren't seeing the kind of appreciation that Jacobs did from when he bought it. Jacobs was a smart businessman; the Dolans seem to be more like rich fans who could afford to buy the team, then know less of what to do with it than half you guys with your fantasy teams. Perhaps you can all offer your services? (I'm not being sarcastic either!)

4) Mentioned this thread to Hubby. Then I said I wouldn't be surprised if TPTB in Cols managed to get MLB to agree to swap the MLB Tribe with the AAA Clippers and give Cleveland the Clippers. He said he wouldn't put it past the politicians....

[General]

Maybe baseball as a whole is too watered down on the macro level and Cleveland is just caught up in the whole mess with regional economics playing a huge role.

[Jumbo]

As long as the Indians make some money, they will be sustainable in Cleveland. Baseball as a whole is raking it in, and the Indians get enough of a share that it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to try to move. I don't think the low (last place) attendance is systemic, and even if it's "objectively wrong" to not go to Indians games because of ownership, that's a factor that is separate and apart from the viability of Cleveland as a market. There's also not a good target for the Indians to move to, and it's been obvious over the last decade that "contraction" is little more than a threat used to extort publicly-financed stadiums.

Although both are unlikely, circumstances where the Cavs would move to somewhere else seems more foreseeable than an Indians move.

Two random thoughts on the local economy:

(1) the point made above about how in the 90s all the corporate dollars (not just suites, but also prime season tickets) went to the Indians is really key here. Those dollars were split when the Browns came back, and split again once Lebron arrived. I suppose some of it has receded from the Cavs recently, but possibly not rapidly, and in any case the NBA can still be marketed as an "event" in a way that baseball isn't.

(2) Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor GDP in 2010 was approximately $105B, 27th nationally. In 2001, it was (in 2010 dollars) about $102B. Although the local economy has been stagnant over the past ten years, it seems to me that the region's capacity to support three teams is not substantially weaker than it was in the late 90s/early 2000s, or for the two decades before 1994 (I certainly don't remember any streets paved with gold in the 80s). So, the only basis by which you could say that the Indians (or another franchise) is not sustainable is by arguing that the standard for sustainability across the league has increased such that the Indians are now "priced out." I don't think the national economy has grown so much faster than Cleveland in the past ~5 years to support that case.

[peeker643]

As long as the Indians make some money, they will be sustainable in Cleveland. Baseball as a whole is raking it in, and the Indians get enough of a share that it probably wouldn't be worth the trouble to try to move. I don't think the low (last place) attendance is systemic, and even if it's "objectively wrong" to not go to Indians games because of ownership, that's a factor that is separate and apart from the viability of Cleveland as a market. There's also not a good target for the Indians to move to, and it's been obvious over the last decade that "contraction" is little more than a threat used to extort publicly-financed stadiums.

Although both are unlikely, circumstances where the Cavs would move to somewhere else seems more foreseeable than an Indians move.

Two random thoughts on the local economy:

(1) the point made above about how in the 90s all the corporate dollars (not just suites, but also prime season tickets) went to the Indians is really key here. Those dollars were split when the Browns came back, and split again once Lebron arrived. I suppose some of it has receded from the Cavs recently, but possibly not rapidly, and in any case the NBA can still be marketed as an "event" in a way that baseball isn't.

(2) Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor GDP in 2010 was approximately $105B, 27th nationally. In 2001, it was (in 2010 dollars) about $102B. Although the local economy has been stagnant over the past ten years, it seems to me that the region's capacity to support three teams is not substantially weaker than it was in the late 90s/early 2000s, or for the two decades before 1994 (I certainly don't remember any streets paved with gold in the 80s). So, the only basis by which you could say that the Indians (or another franchise) is not sustainable is by arguing that the standard for sustainability across the league has increased such that the Indians are now "priced out." I don't think the national economy has grown so much faster than Cleveland in the past ~5 years to support that case.

Excellent. Thank you.

As to GDP of the statistical area and the stagancy in its growth over that time period, any idea on operating costs for the Tribe and/or MLB salary growth, ticket prices, etc during that same period of time?

[Jumbo]

BTW, I'm assuming the sites that Google located are accurate as to GDP.

As to GDP of the statistical area and the stagancy in its growth over that time period, any idea on operating costs for the Tribe and/or MLB salary growth, ticket prices, etc during that same period of time?

Rule of thumb is about 10% salary inflation per year, but that has slowed a bit in recent years.

http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

Scroll down to the bottom for average salary. You'll note significant increases during the tech bubble, a decline in rate of increase after the 2001 recession, further decline in the middle part of the decade (IIRC, this is when the "middling veteran" market collapsed), the economy picking up steam again, and then a significant slowdown to roughly inflation levels after 2008 during the current recession.

The other figures (ticket prices, etc.) would take more than a few Google searches, but my instinct is that they probably roughly track salary increases...although I think MLB as a business has done better than the players' small salary increases of the past few years. Attendance at most places other than Cleveland has remained strong, TV viewershp is good, and MLB Advanced Media is a cash cow.

[mattvan1]

Excellent. Thank you.

As to GDP of the statistical area and the stagancy in its growth over that time period, any idea on operating costs for the Tribe and/or MLB salary growth, ticket prices, etc during that same period of time?

Indeed. And while you are doing all that research for Brian, could you throw in the following for me?

Annual season ticket base 1995-2012. Because that's the real story, IMO.

[Jumbo]

Annual season ticket base 1995-2012. Because that's the real story, IMO.

It's gone down.



That's enough research for one day. Y'all have Google too, you know.