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MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:19 pm

The specimen was:

They emphasize that the FedEx package that arrived in the Montreal laboratory was sealed three times with tamper-proof seals: one on the box, one on a plastic bag inside the box and again on the vial that contained the urine. The lab chief, an MLB source told ESPN.com, testified that the urine was not tainted, that it was appropriate for testing and that it tested positive for testosterone.


http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/munson-120224/ryan-braun-ruling-raises-embarrassing-questions-mlb-drug-testing
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:48 pm

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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:15 pm

Let it go, man. Tampered or not, Juicing or not, the official testing protocol was not followed. Game over, case closed. Move on.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:50 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:Let it go, man. Tampered or not, Juicing or not, the official testing protocol was not followed. Game over, case closed. Move on.


Read that. It was followed.

They are allowed to store it themselves if he could not make it to the Fed Ex. He was told by Fed Ex they would not be shipped until Monday, which meant they would not be secured over the weekend. So he followed the protocol.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:12 pm

He said he followed the procedure as he was told. The arbiter decided that the procedure as he was told wasn't enough for beyond a reasonable doubt, or whatever standard he needed to adhere to. So it was thrown out.

I bet no one's sample is allowed to be stored in the collector's basement anymore.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:47 pm

Ryan Braun cannot be guilty of using performance enhancing drugs because that would mean the entire premise that Bud Selig has cleaned up the game is false. That the MVP from the team he owned could possibly be using PEDs would set the entire concept of drug testing back how far?

Ryan Braun isn't the only one using. He just happened to be the one that got leaked.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:36 pm

pup wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:Let it go, man. Tampered or not, Juicing or not, the official testing protocol was not followed. Game over, case closed. Move on.


Read that. It was followed.

They are allowed to store it themselves if he could not make it to the Fed Ex. He was told by Fed Ex they would not be shipped until Monday, which meant they would not be secured over the weekend. So he followed the protocol.


2 of 3 arbiters disagree with you. Had he followed the letter of the contractual agreement between the union and MLB there would be no way it would have been thrown out. The fact that they were told to do something that wasn't in agreement with the legal protocol means that there are a lot of tests that were run that could be invalidated. Anyone who has failed a test in the past is going to be looking into this to see if their sample was also not handled appropriately. This is why MLB is fighting so hard right now, they know that the can of worms has been opened.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:02 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:
pup wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:Let it go, man. Tampered or not, Juicing or not, the official testing protocol was not followed. Game over, case closed. Move on.


Read that. It was followed.

They are allowed to store it themselves if he could not make it to the Fed Ex. He was told by Fed Ex they would not be shipped until Monday, which meant they would not be secured over the weekend. So he followed the protocol.


2 of 3 arbiters disagree with you. Had he followed the letter of the contractual agreement between the union and MLB there would be no way it would have been thrown out. The fact that they were told to do something that wasn't in agreement with the legal protocol means that there are a lot of tests that were run that could be invalidated. Anyone who has failed a test in the past is going to be looking into this to see if their sample was also not handled appropriately. This is why MLB is fighting so hard right now, they know that the can of worms has been opened.


1 of the "arbitrators" is the union. There is only 1 arbitrator in these cases. And yes, he disagrees with me.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:26 am

pup wrote:1 of the "arbitrators" is the union. There is only 1 arbitrator in these cases. And yes, he disagrees with me.


And one of the arbitrators was MLB who was just as likely to be unbiased as the union. And the third arbitrator was handpicked by MLB and has been giving them results they like for years now. Don't pretend that Braun got a favorable committee.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:11 pm

This thread is gettin' out of hand.

Guy cheated.

Guy was "cleared" on a dopey technicality.

But the guy cheated.

Hey, believe what you want. There's people that think the Juice is innocent as well.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pod2dawg » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:25 pm

They had to clear him on the technicality as the chain of custody was "broken" ,as it should have been in any court if it were the only evidence incriminating the accused.

Dude is guilty, but I couldn't convict him if I were on the jury.

Baseball needs to arrange it so samples are not to be stored at an individuals residence period.

The one thing that bothers me about this case is the "reported' amount of testosterone being so high. Braun should be bald, hump-backed with a fury torso with the disposition of a badger. If he was juicing this high he is insane.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:54 pm

So basically you're saying he should look like Peeker.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:10 pm

motherscratcher wrote:So basically you're saying he should look like Peeker.


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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:14 am

leadpipe wrote:This thread is gettin' out of hand.

Guy cheated.

Guy was "cleared" on a dopey technicality.

But the guy cheated.

Hey, believe what you want. There's people that think the Juice is innocent as well.


This is not exactly true.

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/ryan-braun-what-you-dont-know-about-his-case-is-important/

The common man doesn't know the exact science behind what exactly happened here, and he would be pretty foolish to suggest that he does know.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:59 am

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:This thread is gettin' out of hand.

Guy cheated.

Guy was "cleared" on a dopey technicality.

But the guy cheated.

Hey, believe what you want. There's people that think the Juice is innocent as well.


This is not exactly true.

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/ryan-braun-what-you-dont-know-about-his-case-is-important/

The common man doesn't know the exact science behind what exactly happened here, and he would be pretty foolish to suggest that he does know.


And at what temperature does the sample need to be stored at to create a 3X testosterone level? My guess is north of any reasonable temperature one would see without intentionally placing into a heated environment. If anyone believed that was the case, I am sure this guy would be fired and probably charged with some sort of crime.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pod2dawg » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:12 am

^^^^^ Correct. And I have had a few Biochem classes and scientifically speaking to my knowledge a "sample" containing "hormones" (testosterone) would only degrade or reduce, not increase.

Now there is a way to synthesize testosterone in a lab manufacturing situation, but this would require proper equipment & conditions. Not lying around in triple sealed bag on a desk or in a fridge.

So Braun is either a werewolf, or should be...or N.C.I.S. added testosterone to frame MVP.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:43 am

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:This thread is gettin' out of hand.

Guy cheated.

Guy was "cleared" on a dopey technicality.

But the guy cheated.

Hey, believe what you want. There's people that think the Juice is innocent as well.


This is not exactly true.

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/ryan-braun-what-you-dont-know-about-his-case-is-important/

The common man doesn't know the exact science behind what exactly happened here, and he would be pretty foolish to suggest that he does know.


Got any more of those articles on how steroids DON'T effect home runs....

I'm sure all the foolish common men would be interested.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:12 pm

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/17768106/dj-williams-ryan-mcbean-challenge-suspensions-nflpa-disappointed

Braun opens door, NFL players walk through.

End of drug testing right around the corner, so we do not tarnish the reputation of an active MVP.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:15 pm

pup wrote:http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/17768106/dj-williams-ryan-mcbean-challenge-suspensions-nflpa-disappointed

Braun opens door, NFL players walk through.

End of drug testing right around the corner, so we do not tarnish the reputation of an active MVP.


"The collector was eventually fired"

So it's not important to you for proper protocol to occur, as long as we can gnash our teeth about possible steroid users? Got it. I know, these can be technicalities they're getting off on, but I have no sympathy for these organizations' witchhunts if they can't even follow the rules they themselves set in place.

And hey, I've had a couple of biochem classes too! That means I too must be highly qualified on a matter where I don't have all the facts. And, as usual, leadpipe has his mind set, and won't further educate himself on the topic, I keep forgetting there is no point interacting with him.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:27 pm

Here's my thoughts on the entire issue:

I don't give a shit what these guys use , who uses or how much they use. I don't care if the modern dugouts are too small for their muscle-bound bodies. I don't care if they're all dead at 45 and their emaciated testicles would fit in a jewelry box.

Who gives a shit what they take. Entertain me.

But don't fucking lie. Any of 'em. Not the player/pharmaceutical studies and not the league. Don't treat me like a stooge and tell me looking behind the curtain will ruin my opinion of these fucking log heads.

They were born with a gift or they manufactured one in a lab. I just want my 25 to be bigger and better than your 25.

Y'all can preach on this. I wanna see 104mph fastballs and 495 foot homers.

Just loke the 90's. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:27 am

7foot3 wrote:
pup wrote:http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/eye-on-football/17768106/dj-williams-ryan-mcbean-challenge-suspensions-nflpa-disappointed

Braun opens door, NFL players walk through.

End of drug testing right around the corner, so we do not tarnish the reputation of an active MVP.


"The collector was eventually fired"

So it's not important to you for proper protocol to occur, as long as we can gnash our teeth about possible steroid users? Got it. I know, these can be technicalities they're getting off on, but I have no sympathy for these organizations' witchhunts if they can't even follow the rules they themselves set in place.

And hey, I've had a couple of biochem classes too! That means I too must be highly qualified on a matter where I don't have all the facts. And, as usual, leadpipe has his mind set, and won't further educate himself on the topic, I keep forgetting there is no point interacting with him.


Here we go....further educate myself? So I can get on as high a horse as you?

Who are you to tell me what I've read and what I haven't. Do you assume I simply "made up my mind" because my opinion doesn't mesh with yours?

As with the steroid issue we discussed last year - you, or anyone else can site me a thousand articles on each side, and I'm sure many of them have value - but not as much value to MY OPINION as Barry Bonds growing hat size combined with an aging to performance curve never seen before. Or Roger Clemens rage issues combined with a similiar age to performance curve......or the age to performance curves of many of the players "alledged" to be users in the Mitchell report or elsewhere.

Major league baseball F's up damn near everything they touch. And they F'd up this situation (in more ways than one) as well. And while your lack of sympathy gets Braun off the hook in your mind, it doesn't in mine.

Again, I go to bed, it's cloudy. Forecast calls for overnight showers. I hear thunder in the middle of the night. I wake up and the street is wet. My first thought isn't that someone had a sinister plan to sit in the bushes, wait for me to fall asleep, and hose down the streets. My first thought is that it rained. Do I KNOW it rained? Did I SEE it rain? No. But I'd feel real comfortable betting a high amount that it did.

This situation ain't much different. Yes, there could be something scientific whcich lead to the test levels. There could be a real effect from the delay. There could be another reason Braun was so defensive with his comments, but again, I'd feel real comfortable betting a high amount that what appears, did indeed happen.

Lastly, as with many arguments I've gotten into on the site, we will see - and I'm very comfortable with seeing - this all play out. It will be interesting to see if we've still got an MVP caliber playa out there, now that the heat has come down.

But really 7, all we've got is a differing opinion. That doesn't make you smarter than anyone.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:11 am

leadpipe wrote:Here we go....further educate myself? So I can get on as high a horse as you?

Who are you to tell me what I've read and what I haven't. Do you assume I simply "made up my mind" because my opinion doesn't mesh with yours?

As with the steroid issue we discussed last year - you, or anyone else can site me a thousand articles on each side, and I'm sure many of them have value - but not as much value to MY OPINION as Barry Bonds growing hat size combined with an aging to performance curve never seen before. Or Roger Clemens rage issues combined with a similiar age to performance curve......or the age to performance curves of many of the players "alledged" to be users in the Mitchell report or elsewhere.

Major league baseball F's up damn near everything they touch. And they F'd up this situation (in more ways than one) as well. And while your lack of sympathy gets Braun off the hook in your mind, it doesn't in mine.

Again, I go to bed, it's cloudy. Forecast calls for overnight showers. I hear thunder in the middle of the night. I wake up and the street is wet. My first thought isn't that someone had a sinister plan to sit in the bushes, wait for me to fall asleep, and hose down the streets. My first thought is that it rained. Do I KNOW it rained? Did I SEE it rain? No. But I'd feel real comfortable betting a high amount that it did.

This situation ain't much different. Yes, there could be something scientific whcich lead to the test levels. There could be a real effect from the delay. There could be another reason Braun was so defensive with his comments, but again, I'd feel real comfortable betting a high amount that what appears, did indeed happen.

Lastly, as with many arguments I've gotten into on the site, we will see - and I'm very comfortable with seeing - this all play out. It will be interesting to see if we've still got an MVP caliber playa out there, now that the heat has come down.

But really 7, all we've got is a differing opinion. That doesn't make you smarter than anyone.


What high horse am I on? You made no legitimate response regarding that article on steroids, and you still have no official response besides circumstantial evidence about hat sizes and rage issues. These are not evidence that steroid usage actually occurred, or what we were actually talking about way back, that they turned nobodies into great players.

And your metaphor is noticeably off. This wasn't just a wet street. His sample wasn't just higher than normal. This was your basement flooded up to your neck. His sample was so far off the charts that the results aren't believable.

But go ahead and believe that I'm on a high horse because I disagree with someone who has yet to demonstrate the facts on steroid usage. Go ahead, show me the aging curves on these players alleged in the Mitchell report, or how changing hat size or alleged rage issues correlate to performance as well. Until then, I'm going to accept the fact that the average steroid user is just as likely to look like Alex Sanchez or Rafael Betancourt as he does like Mark McGwire, and that changes in offensive levels have been proven to be based on things like how tightly wound the ball is or how the umpires have changed the strike zonehttp://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/are_umpires_behind_the_decreased_run_environment/ and not on the prevalence of steroids.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:02 am

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Here we go....further educate myself? So I can get on as high a horse as you?

Who are you to tell me what I've read and what I haven't. Do you assume I simply "made up my mind" because my opinion doesn't mesh with yours?

As with the steroid issue we discussed last year - you, or anyone else can site me a thousand articles on each side, and I'm sure many of them have value - but not as much value to MY OPINION as Barry Bonds growing hat size combined with an aging to performance curve never seen before. Or Roger Clemens rage issues combined with a similiar age to performance curve......or the age to performance curves of many of the players "alledged" to be users in the Mitchell report or elsewhere.

Major league baseball F's up damn near everything they touch. And they F'd up this situation (in more ways than one) as well. And while your lack of sympathy gets Braun off the hook in your mind, it doesn't in mine.

Again, I go to bed, it's cloudy. Forecast calls for overnight showers. I hear thunder in the middle of the night. I wake up and the street is wet. My first thought isn't that someone had a sinister plan to sit in the bushes, wait for me to fall asleep, and hose down the streets. My first thought is that it rained. Do I KNOW it rained? Did I SEE it rain? No. But I'd feel real comfortable betting a high amount that it did.

This situation ain't much different. Yes, there could be something scientific whcich lead to the test levels. There could be a real effect from the delay. There could be another reason Braun was so defensive with his comments, but again, I'd feel real comfortable betting a high amount that what appears, did indeed happen.

Lastly, as with many arguments I've gotten into on the site, we will see - and I'm very comfortable with seeing - this all play out. It will be interesting to see if we've still got an MVP caliber playa out there, now that the heat has come down.

But really 7, all we've got is a differing opinion. That doesn't make you smarter than anyone.


What high horse am I on? You made no legitimate response regarding that article on steroids, and you still have no official response besides circumstantial evidence about hat sizes and rage issues. These are not evidence that steroid usage actually occurred, or what we were actually talking about way back, that they turned nobodies into great players.

And your metaphor is noticeably off. This wasn't just a wet street. His sample wasn't just higher than normal. This was your basement flooded up to your neck. His sample was so far off the charts that the results aren't believable.

But go ahead and believe that I'm on a high horse because I disagree with someone who has yet to demonstrate the facts on steroid usage. Go ahead, show me the aging curves on these players alleged in the Mitchell report, or how changing hat size or alleged rage issues correlate to performance as well. Until then, I'm going to accept the fact that the average steroid user is just as likely to look like Alex Sanchez or Rafael Betancourt as he does like Mark McGwire, and that changes in offensive levels have been proven to be based on things like how tightly wound the ball is or how the umpires have changed the strike zonehttp://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/are_umpires_behind_the_decreased_run_environment/ and not on the prevalence of steroids.


The balls wound tighter. The umpires changed the zone. I would add sight lines at parks. I would add smaller ballparks. Hell, I would add the fact hitting a baseball is understood and taught much better than 40 years ago.

An offensive boon is not why I called. The "steroid era" is filled with guys that got better at ages never seen before - and won't be seen again if they keep the game clean. Forget Bonds and McGwire hitting 70, it's that they were hitting their career bests well into the historical age of decline. Roger Clemens velocity dropped at a rate consistent with age - until the period reports and alledged eye witness accounts claimed he started to use - than a miracle of miracles, all of the sudden he's back up to 98.

Show you these curves? Just peruse Baseball Reference. Barry Bonds had his best years of his life beginning at age 36. As Bill James has said - and shown several times over, in the real world you can expect this to begin about age 27. And, if you compare the "stars" of the past - any era, to the "stars" of the steroid era, you'll see that Barry. Mark, Sammy, Roger and other chief "alledged" users miraculously did what nobody else in the history of the sports was able to do - which was be the best they ever were in their late thirties.

By the way, since the increased crackdown - with HR numbers decreasing from the highs of that era, does that mean the umpires have decided to open up the strike zone just a tiny bit?

I understand I'm not legit in your eyes cause I'm not linking 25 scientific articles. But Christ, you'd have to be blind not to see what was going on, and how guys simply stopped aging in regard to performance - and how they'll start aging once again.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:29 am

leadpipe wrote:The balls wound tighter. The umpires changed the zone. I would add sight lines at parks. I would add smaller ballparks. Hell, I would add the fact hitting a baseball is understood and taught much better than 40 years ago.

An offensive boon is not why I called. The "steroid era" is filled with guys that got better at ages never seen before - and won't be seen again if they keep the game clean. Forget Bonds and McGwire hitting 70, it's that they were hitting their career bests well into the historical age of decline. Roger Clemens velocity dropped at a rate consistent with age - until the period reports and alledged eye witness accounts claimed he started to use - than a miracle of miracles, all of the sudden he's back up to 98.

Show you these curves? Just peruse Baseball Reference. Barry Bonds had his best years of his life beginning at age 36. As Bill James has said - and shown several times over, in the real world you can expect this to begin about age 27. And, if you compare the "stars" of the past - any era, to the "stars" of the steroid era, you'll see that Barry. Mark, Sammy, Roger and other chief "alledged" users miraculously did what nobody else in the history of the sports was able to do - which was be the best they ever were in their late thirties.

By the way, since the increased crackdown - with HR numbers decreasing from the highs of that era, does that mean the umpires have decided to open up the strike zone just a tiny bit?

I understand I'm not legit in your eyes cause I'm not linking 25 scientific articles. But Christ, you'd have to be blind not to see what was going on, and how guys simply stopped aging in regard to performance - and how they'll start aging once again.


So the main factor is that you are skeptical of their performance at an elder age. What about Aaron's career high in HR coming at age 37? How does that fit with your perception? Numbers 2, 4, and 5 on the list of HRs hit after age 30 are Ruth, Aaron and Mays. All-time, top-of-the-leaderboard, type players put up astounding numbers in their late 30s. That's what makes them so special. But not until the power numbers shot up in 1994 did we blame above-average to excellent late career results on steroids, despite the fact that PEDs existed and were fairly prevalent in athletic circles in the 50s and 60s.

The link I sent you describes how the strike zone has been opened up, but thats just over the past couple years. Also, the HR totals seemed to have peaked around 2000, and started to decline before the steroid crackdown, though they did shoot back up a bit in 2006, you know, the year after that MLB finally got a real anti-PED policy in place, so it's pretty hard to use HR numbers to explain steroid usage.

And I'm not asking you to link 25 scientific articles, stay away from that strawman, but you haven't shown anything at all besides some anecdotal data.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:01 am

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:The balls wound tighter. The umpires changed the zone. I would add sight lines at parks. I would add smaller ballparks. Hell, I would add the fact hitting a baseball is understood and taught much better than 40 years ago.

An offensive boon is not why I called. The "steroid era" is filled with guys that got better at ages never seen before - and won't be seen again if they keep the game clean. Forget Bonds and McGwire hitting 70, it's that they were hitting their career bests well into the historical age of decline. Roger Clemens velocity dropped at a rate consistent with age - until the period reports and alledged eye witness accounts claimed he started to use - than a miracle of miracles, all of the sudden he's back up to 98.

Show you these curves? Just peruse Baseball Reference. Barry Bonds had his best years of his life beginning at age 36. As Bill James has said - and shown several times over, in the real world you can expect this to begin about age 27. And, if you compare the "stars" of the past - any era, to the "stars" of the steroid era, you'll see that Barry. Mark, Sammy, Roger and other chief "alledged" users miraculously did what nobody else in the history of the sports was able to do - which was be the best they ever were in their late thirties.

By the way, since the increased crackdown - with HR numbers decreasing from the highs of that era, does that mean the umpires have decided to open up the strike zone just a tiny bit?

I understand I'm not legit in your eyes cause I'm not linking 25 scientific articles. But Christ, you'd have to be blind not to see what was going on, and how guys simply stopped aging in regard to performance - and how they'll start aging once again.


So the main factor is that you are skeptical of their performance at an elder age. What about Aaron's career high in HR coming at age 37? How does that fit with your perception? Numbers 2, 4, and 5 on the list of HRs hit after age 30 are Ruth, Aaron and Mays. All-time, top-of-the-leaderboard, type players put up astounding numbers in their late 30s. That's what makes them so special. But not until the power numbers shot up in 1994 did we blame above-average to excellent late career results on steroids, despite the fact that PEDs existed and were fairly prevalent in athletic circles in the 50s and 60s.

The link I sent you describes how the strike zone has been opened up, but thats just over the past couple years. Also, the HR totals seemed to have peaked around 2000, and started to decline before the steroid crackdown, though they did shoot back up a bit in 2006, you know, the year after that MLB finally got a real anti-PED policy in place, so it's pretty hard to use HR numbers to explain steroid usage.

And I'm not asking you to link 25 scientific articles, stay away from that strawman, but you haven't shown anything at all besides some anecdotal data.


One would assume that the guys who hit the most HR's after the age of 30, would also be some of the top home run hitters of all-time. Not sure what the point is.

But I'll entertain guys like Mays, Ruth and Aaron for a second. Cause anyone who saw Willie Mays bumblimg under fly balls at the age of 40. Anyone who saw Aaron as a Brewer down at Municipal.....well, anyone who saw them pretty much had a feeling of pity, seeing a great at the end of the line, hoping they didn't embarrass themselves. Those who saw a guy like Barry Bonds at 40 were seeing the best hitter in the game. And I didn't get a chance to see Ruth, but I assume hanging an average below .200 in his final year at age 40 wasn't a sight to see.

But are we gonna do the stats thing. Yeah, Willie Mays hit HR's after 30. But to my point, he hit damn near 200 of em' from 30-34 - than he dropped of the table - JUST LIKE PRACTICALLY EVERYONE ELSE IN HISTORY COME 34-35. And yes, you can cull some big years here and there from good players, but you'll be picking them out from among thousands of mediocre and bad ones.

And look, age to performance isn't the ONLY thing I saw. Perhaps the most prevalent, but far from the only thing. But why bother, anything I offer on the topic is "antecdotal data." But really, there are the stats from the history of the game that tell us, there are literally hundreds of quotes from guys who were in lockerroms at the time, there are guys who were bigger, faster and stronger at age 37, than at 27.

Clemens goes from 91-92, to hitting 100 on a gun at 40 years old. If the explanation were easy, there wouldn't be hundreds of players wondering what was going on. So, if guys that are in the game are skeptical, why is it so out of line for a guy like me to be? It's so unatural it's ridiculous. Would assume everyone understands this. Perhaps the ball was smoothed down to streamline fastballs - specifically only Clemens fastballs.

You wanna believe what you saw from Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, McGwire and the like was real, go ahead. That is what you're telling us, correct? That performance enhancers played no part in their careers? Really?

Really?
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:30 am

leadpipe wrote:One would assume that the guys who hit the most HR's after the age of 30, would also be some of the top home run hitters of all-time. Not sure what the point is.

But I'll entertain guys like Mays, Ruth and Aaron for a second. Cause anyone who saw Willie Mays bumblimg under fly balls at the age of 40. Anyone who saw Aaron as a Brewer down at Municipal.....well, anyone who saw them pretty much had a feeling of pity, seeing a great at the end of the line, hoping they didn't embarrass themselves. Those who saw a guy like Barry Bonds at 40 were seeing the best hitter in the game. And I didn't get a chance to see Ruth, but I assume hanging an average below .200 in his final year at age 40 wasn't a sight to see.

But are we gonna do the stats thing. Yeah, Willie Mays hit HR's after 30. But to my point, he hit damn near 200 of em' from 30-34 - than he dropped of the table - JUST LIKE PRACTICALLY EVERYONE ELSE IN HISTORY COME 34-35. And yes, you can cull some big years here and there from good players, but you'll be picking them out from among thousands of mediocre and bad ones.

And look, age to performance isn't the ONLY thing I saw. Perhaps the most prevalent, but far from the only thing. But why bother, anything I offer on the topic is "antecdotal data." But really, there are the stats from the history of the game that tell us, there are literally hundreds of quotes from guys who were in lockerroms at the time, there are guys who were bigger, faster and stronger at age 37, than at 27.

Clemens goes from 91-92, to hitting 100 on a gun at 40 years old. If the explanation were easy, there wouldn't be hundreds of players wondering what was going on. So, if guys that are in the game are skeptical, why is it so out of line for a guy like me to be? It's so unatural it's ridiculous. Would assume everyone understands this. Perhaps the ball was smoothed down to streamline fastballs - specifically only Clemens fastballs.

You wanna believe what you saw from Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, McGwire and the like was real, go ahead. That is what you're telling us, correct? That performance enhancers played no part in their careers? Really?

Really?


So the age when its no longer ok to be a great home run hitter is decided by whatever you want to feel is right?

Also, at age 40 Mays and Aaron could still hit. Yeah, they looked ugly in the field, but so did Bonds. I'm not sure what your point is there. You tell me there are hundreds of quotes, but you don't have even one, and even if you did, I'm not sure how much it actually proves anything. Most adult males who work out frequently get bigger and stronger from 27 to 37. And now Clemens has moved up from 98 to 100 in the span of about a day. Those steroids must have been fantastic. Also, thanks to the development of pitch f/x, we can actually find what Clemens was throwing at age 40 - 91.8 mph average fastball. Not quite 100, or even 98.

Here's the deal. I know that a lot of these guys used PEDs. I know they may have helped a lot of these guys become better ballplayers. But the evidence that they turned what should have been mediocre players into stars isn't there. You only list guys at the elite end of the spectrum (also, Piazza? really? There's only one story that suggested Piazza used, and its been rightfully ridiculed for a long time now). But these guys were elite players from the beginning. There are countless upon countless examples of mediocre players who used and were mediocre both before and after. These aren't magic baseball pills.

And again, PEDs have been around a lot longer than Canseco's rookie year. One of Hank Aaron's teammates (in fact the guy who caught the record breaking home run) has said that ""We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses". If today's players' performances aren't real, then we haven't seen real MLB play in a long, long time.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:36 am

You two yahoos need to take a breath and realize that you pretty much agree on 95% of this shit and are fighting to the death over the remaining 5% on which you slightly differ.

As for me...well...I'm with you fellas.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:24 pm

motherscratcher wrote:You two yahoos need to take a breath and realize that you pretty much agree on 95% of this shit and are fighting to the death over the remaining 5% on which you slightly differ.

As for me...well...I'm with you fellas.


One of us believes performance enhancers had little if any effect.

The other believes quite the opposite.

Not sure how much less a percentage we could agree, really.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:47 pm

As the hundreds of major league ballplayers who turned to performance-enhancing drugs throughout the 1990s did their absolute best to keep the media at arm's length, Piazza took the oppostite approach. According to several sources, when the subject of performance enhancing was broached with reporters he especially trusted, Piazza fessed up. "Sure, I use," he told one. "But in limited doses, and not all that often." Whether or not it was Piazza's intent, the tactic was brilliant: By letting the media know, off the record, Piazza made the information that much harder to report. Writers saw his bulging muscles, his acne covered back. They certainly heard the under-the-breath comments from other major league players, some who considered Piazza's success to be 100 percent chemically enhanced. "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it," says Reggie Jefferson, the longtime major league first baseman. "It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched."

"There was nothing more obvious then Mike on steroids," says another major league veteran who played agianst Piazza for years. "Everyone talked about it, everyone knew it. Guys on my team, guys on the Mets. A lot of us came up playing against Mike, so we knew what he looked like back in the day. Frankly, he sucked on the field. Just sucked. After his body changed, he was entirely different. 'Power from nowhere,' we called it."

When asked, on a scale of 1 to 10, to grade the odds that Piazza had used performance enhancers, the player doesn't pause.

"A 12," he says. "Maybe even a 13."


From: "The Rocket that fell to Earth" by Jeff Pearlman.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:19 pm

leadpipe wrote:As the hundreds of major league ballplayers who turned to performance-enhancing drugs throughout the 1990s did their absolute best to keep the media at arm's length, Piazza took the oppostite approach. According to several sources, when the subject of performance enhancing was broached with reporters he especially trusted, Piazza fessed up. "Sure, I use," he told one. "But in limited doses, and not all that often." Whether or not it was Piazza's intent, the tactic was brilliant: By letting the media know, off the record, Piazza made the information that much harder to report. Writers saw his bulging muscles, his acne covered back. They certainly heard the under-the-breath comments from other major league players, some who considered Piazza's success to be 100 percent chemically enhanced. "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it," says Reggie Jefferson, the longtime major league first baseman. "It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched."

"There was nothing more obvious then Mike on steroids," says another major league veteran who played agianst Piazza for years. "Everyone talked about it, everyone knew it. Guys on my team, guys on the Mets. A lot of us came up playing against Mike, so we knew what he looked like back in the day. Frankly, he sucked on the field. Just sucked. After his body changed, he was entirely different. 'Power from nowhere,' we called it."

When asked, on a scale of 1 to 10, to grade the odds that Piazza had used performance enhancers, the player doesn't pause.

"A 12," he says. "Maybe even a 13."


From: "The Rocket that fell to Earth" by Jeff Pearlman.


So Piazza, who has always denied using steroids just happened to tell a friend of a friend of Pearlman, but it took 10-15 years for the story to get out. Sure, I guess it's possible. And again, just looking at a guy is no way to definitively say he took steroids. I'm not sure if you knew this, but bulging muscles and bacne are not limited to hardcore juicers.

At least I know you're conceding that players in the 60s and 70s used steroids too.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:34 pm

7foot3 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:As the hundreds of major league ballplayers who turned to performance-enhancing drugs throughout the 1990s did their absolute best to keep the media at arm's length, Piazza took the oppostite approach. According to several sources, when the subject of performance enhancing was broached with reporters he especially trusted, Piazza fessed up. "Sure, I use," he told one. "But in limited doses, and not all that often." Whether or not it was Piazza's intent, the tactic was brilliant: By letting the media know, off the record, Piazza made the information that much harder to report. Writers saw his bulging muscles, his acne covered back. They certainly heard the under-the-breath comments from other major league players, some who considered Piazza's success to be 100 percent chemically enhanced. "He's a guy who did it, and everybody knows it," says Reggie Jefferson, the longtime major league first baseman. "It's amazing how all these names, like Roger Clemens, are brought up, yet Mike Piazza goes untouched."

"There was nothing more obvious then Mike on steroids," says another major league veteran who played agianst Piazza for years. "Everyone talked about it, everyone knew it. Guys on my team, guys on the Mets. A lot of us came up playing against Mike, so we knew what he looked like back in the day. Frankly, he sucked on the field. Just sucked. After his body changed, he was entirely different. 'Power from nowhere,' we called it."

When asked, on a scale of 1 to 10, to grade the odds that Piazza had used performance enhancers, the player doesn't pause.

"A 12," he says. "Maybe even a 13."


From: "The Rocket that fell to Earth" by Jeff Pearlman.


So Piazza, who has always denied using steroids just happened to tell a friend of a friend of Pearlman, but it took 10-15 years for the story to get out. Sure, I guess it's possible. And again, just looking at a guy is no way to definitively say he took steroids. I'm not sure if you knew this, but bulging muscles and bacne are not limited to hardcore juicers.

At least I know you're conceding that players in the 60s and 70s used steroids too.


No matter what I say, or what I bring up, it doesn't count.

Respected author, in this litigous society...... all bullshit I'm sure.

Sure Piazza going from a much smaller guy, who was a last round draft pick as a favor, turning into a huge cat, with bacne, who several major league players who played with and against him accuse of using...... or I can believe you. The guy with a lot of huge friends with bacne that are clean.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby 7foot3 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:30 am

leadpipe wrote:No matter what I say, or what I bring up, it doesn't count.

Respected author, in this litigous society...... all bullshit I'm sure.

Sure Piazza going from a much smaller guy, who was a last round draft pick as a favor, turning into a huge cat, with bacne, who several major league players who played with and against him accuse of using...... or I can believe you. The guy with a lot of huge friends with bacne that are clean.


I didn't say it didn't count, I said its certainly possible. But you do have to see why I have my doubts, right? And even in today's litigious society, that's not worth the effort, especially when we see the government is willing to spend multiple millions to completely botch the Clemens trial.

And the player's quotes about Piazza don't seem to fit the numbers. He "sucked" in his at 21 in A+ for 88 games (though he wasn't too bad the previous year, his first as a professional), and then as 23 year old in his first, all-of-21-games, stint in the majors. Otherwise, he was a damn good professional. He hit 29 homers at age 22 in his first minor league season that he played over 100 games. He hit 35 at 24 in his first full season in the majors. I'm not sure when "back in the day" was (though I'm sure the goalposts are frequently moved) but there were very few opportunities for Piazza's peers to find times that he sucked or lacked power.

That said, I'm sure glad you wanted to break down the minutiae of Piazza's career.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Mon May 14, 2012 10:03 am

Eliezer Alfonzo has been cleared of his 100-game PED suspension due to procedural concerns.
Alfonzo used the same out as Ryan Braun, arguing that the shipment and storage of his urine sample did not follow procedure. He's eligible to play immediately and should report to Triple-A Colorado Springs shortly.


Loophole heaven!
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon May 14, 2012 10:05 am

pup wrote:
Eliezer Alfonzo has been cleared of his 100-game PED suspension due to procedural concerns.
Alfonzo used the same out as Ryan Braun, arguing that the shipment and storage of his urine sample did not follow procedure. He's eligible to play immediately and should report to Triple-A Colorado Springs shortly.


Loophole heaven!


Which is what happens when you don't follow protocol. That's why they are in place.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Mon May 14, 2012 10:32 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:
pup wrote:
Eliezer Alfonzo has been cleared of his 100-game PED suspension due to procedural concerns.
Alfonzo used the same out as Ryan Braun, arguing that the shipment and storage of his urine sample did not follow procedure. He's eligible to play immediately and should report to Triple-A Colorado Springs shortly.


Loophole heaven!


Which is what happens when you don't follow protocol. That's why they are in place.


Actually, sometimes protocol is in place just to have something in place, yet have no effect on the results. But since they had to put something in place to make it all official, peeps are cheating and getting away with it. Once the Braun thing happened, doors wide open.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 14, 2012 10:46 am

pup wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:
pup wrote:
Eliezer Alfonzo has been cleared of his 100-game PED suspension due to procedural concerns.
Alfonzo used the same out as Ryan Braun, arguing that the shipment and storage of his urine sample did not follow procedure. He's eligible to play immediately and should report to Triple-A Colorado Springs shortly.


Loophole heaven!


Which is what happens when you don't follow protocol. That's why they are in place.


Actually, sometimes protocol is in place just to have something in place, yet have no effect on the results. But since they had to put something in place to make it all official, peeps are cheating and getting away with it. Once the Braun thing happened, doors wide open.


??

Must be like gates at a Tribe game. They may be open but only one person has walked through.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon May 14, 2012 10:54 am

pup wrote:Actually, sometimes protocol is in place just to have something in place, yet have no effect on the results. But since they had to put something in place to make it all official, peeps are cheating and getting away with it. Once the Braun thing happened, doors wide open.


I'm not sure I understand this but I'm pretty sure it's completely ridiculous.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 14, 2012 5:50 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
pup wrote:Actually, sometimes protocol is in place just to have something in place, yet have no effect on the results. But since they had to put something in place to make it all official, peeps are cheating and getting away with it. Once the Braun thing happened, doors wide open.


I'm not sure I understand this but I'm pretty sure it's completely ridiculous.



It is.

They have protocols for a reason. To prevent possible contamination of a sample.

They were not followed. He is found not guilty. MLB has their own testing morons to blame.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Mon May 14, 2012 7:13 pm

All protocols are required, that is the thought correct?

I know this is going to start a whole nother shit storm, but is Roger Clemens guilty of taking HGH? Obviously, there is no way anyone could think he is with the only evidence being a needle stored in a shoe box for 8 years.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 14, 2012 7:22 pm

I think he's going to be found not guilty myself.

Perjury is insanely hard to prove. I don't think prosecution has established nearly enough evidence he was taking PEDs and then lying about it.

And he should be found not guilty because of exactly what you said.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Mon May 14, 2012 9:19 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I think he's going to be found not guilty myself.

Perjury is insanely hard to prove. I don't think prosecution has established nearly enough evidence he was taking PEDs and then lying about it.

And he should be found not guilty because of exactly what you said.


Didn't ask about perjury. Asked about him taking HGH.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon May 14, 2012 10:02 pm

The evidence isn't strong enough for me to say he's guilty of using PEDs.

I honestly do not care if he did.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby dmiles » Tue May 15, 2012 10:24 am

I could pump Jason Heyward, Alex Rios and Rick Ankiel full of HGH, Test and whatever other designer PED is out there. None of those guys ever sniff Piazza's jock strap. If you don't have a good swing it doesn't matter what you are pumping into your body. Maybe Piazza lasted longer, maybe it helped get him there but guys who hit that many homers simply do shit that others don't. The drugs certainly don't hurt but I question how much they help someone who doesn't have a decent power swing in the first place. To be honest I think I'd have to see some young Brady clips before and after, with Piazza he always had a good swing. Brady I seem to recall coming out of nowhere for 50 homers, but I don't think there are many clips of him floating around the web.

Now Leadpipe still has a good point about guys not aging, that seems to be a different matter entirely.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pod2dawg » Tue May 15, 2012 10:37 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:They were not followed. He is found not guilty. MLB has their own testing morons to blame.


^^^^^^ that.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Tue May 15, 2012 10:45 am

pod2dawg wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:They were not followed. He is found not guilty. MLB has their own testing morons to blame.


^^^^^^ that.


Yep. As long as there is someone else to blame, cheat away!
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby Love child of shawn kemp » Tue May 15, 2012 12:43 pm

And now MLB has fired the arbitrator that decided the test was invalid. Doesn't that go against an arbitrator trying to be unbiased? You get fired for the "wrong" decision.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby pup » Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:41 am

Uh oh Braun.
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pup
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:21 am

pup wrote:Uh oh Braun.



Looking at 100 games now. He was on double-secret probation the whole time.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:54 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
pup wrote:Uh oh Braun.



Looking at 100 games now. He was on double-secret probation the whole time.

Yeah, Braun is in trouble. This is going to be a goddam Circus, with MLB ridiculously going for 100 games.

I hope ARods career is probably over if this goes down, A shell of his former self. But it would be so great if he did somehow make it back and somehow did take over the HR lead. That would be outstanding, because fuck Selig.

Bud Selig is an assclown.
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Re: MVP Ryan Braun tested positive for PED's

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jun 05, 2013 1:09 pm

Jhonny Peralta also named as being linked to Biogenesis. What a shame that would be!
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