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A-Cab is back...

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A-Cab is back...

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:24 pm

...and Hagadone takes the bus back to Cols. http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/a ... e&c_id=cle

Don't understand this one. Someone here said that Sipp still had options? He's thrown 4.2 innings and has an ERA of 11+, WHIP of 2+. Hagadone has a smaller sample size of 3.1 innings but he seems to be pitching better right now with an ERA of 2.70 and a WHIP of .90. I'd say send Sipp down to work out the kinks and find his 2011 self while Hagadone is still fooling batters, but that's just me.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:34 am

Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:40 am

statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.


No, but you can send them down for two straight below replacement-level seasons and four bad innings.

If he had gotten knocked around in OAK on Sunday, he'd have driven himself down I-71 yesterday.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:23 am

Sipp has looked like shit. Hagadone has looked much better. Not sure off the top of my head whether or not Sipp has options, but I'd rather have Hagadone on the team than Wheeler at this point.

Also, the "proven veteran" Sipp has barely over 2 years of MLB service time and has thrown less than 200 MLB innings, so lets not act like we're dealing with Jesse Orosco here.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:53 am

I am actually more concerned about Raffie Perez. I have read numerous times how his velocity is way down this year, but I can't see where any reporter has actually asked Acta about it, and whether or not Raffie is even healthy.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:32 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Sipp has looked like shit. Hagadone has looked much better. Not sure off the top of my head whether or not Sipp has options, but I'd rather have Hagadone on the team than Wheeler at this point.

Also, the "proven veteran" Sipp has barely over 2 years of MLB service time and has thrown less than 200 MLB innings, so lets not act like we're dealing with Jesse Orosco here.


Orosco could get out of his recliner tonight and get lefties out.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:05 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.


No, but you can send them down for two straight below replacement-level seasons and four bad innings.

If he had gotten knocked around in OAK on Sunday, he'd have driven himself down I-71 yesterday.

Sipp's not going anywhere. Sorry.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:08 pm

statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.


Sipp may not be the new Mo Rivera like I predicted when he was in AA :hide: but he's an excellent relief arm. I'm hoping he'll eventually cut down the home runs he allows.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:17 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:
statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.


Sipp may not be the new Mo Rivera like I predicted when he was in AA :hide: but he's an excellent relief arm. I'm hoping he'll eventually cut down the home runs he allows.


There's nothing excellent about a reliever with a 4.8 BB/9 for his career.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:49 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.


Sipp may not be the new Mo Rivera like I predicted when he was in AA :hide: but he's an excellent relief arm. I'm hoping he'll eventually cut down the home runs he allows.


There's nothing excellent about a reliever with a 4.8 BB/9 for his career.

You're right, walks have also been an issue. But I gotta remain loyal to ma boy. He can still strike out the side in under 12 pitches on any given appearance.

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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:09 pm

statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.

"Proven vet" or not, to me it seems like he could use a little polishing, a refresher course so to speak, this year. I'm thinking: Hey, it worked for Cliff Lee in 2007, and kinda helped Fausto Whatshisname in 2009 (at he reduced his ERA and losses...baby steps?) so maybe it's just what would help Sipp. If it does nothing other than to piss him off so that he comes back and shows the brass he still has it I would consider it a success.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:16 pm

Am I Here Again? wrote:
statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.

"Proven vet" or not, to me it seems like he could use a little polishing, a refresher course so to speak, this year. I'm thinking: Hey, it worked for Cliff Lee in 2007, and kinda helped Fausto Whatshisname in 2009 (at he reduced his ERA and losses...baby steps?) so maybe it's just what would help Sipp. If it does nothing other than to piss him off so that he comes back and shows the brass he still has it I would consider it a success.


Couldn't hurt. If Hagadone is still blazing through the AAA hitters and Sipp is still struggling to throw strikes and put up scoreless performances then maybe one should replace the other until the latter gets the work and results we think he needs down in the minors. Hopefully by that point Dan Wheeler will have revealed himself to be a bum to Acta and Hags can keep his place while Sipp rejoins the club.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:10 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:.....Hopefully by that point Dan Wheeler will have revealed himself to be a bum to Acta and Hags can keep his place while Sipp rejoins the club.

In a perfect world, B_P, in a perfect world.Image

Someone has to eat innings when the game goes in the crapper. May as well be an older guy with no aspirations of doing anything more than he is right now rather than put in a young pup with hopes and dreams ending up getting stomped.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:36 pm

Am I Here Again? wrote:
statmasta wrote:Sipp is a proven veteran. You don't send proven vets down because of 4 bad innings.

"Proven vet" or not, to me it seems like he could use a little polishing, a refresher course so to speak, this year. I'm thinking: Hey, it worked for Cliff Lee in 2007, and kinda helped Fausto Whatshisname in 2009 (at he reduced his ERA and losses...baby steps?) so maybe it's just what would help Sipp. If it does nothing other than to piss him off so that he comes back and shows the brass he still has it I would consider it a success.

Lee and Fausto were abject disasters. Sipp just had 4 rough innings. He'll be fine.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby phutatorius » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:40 pm

Is this a service-time thing with Hagadone, or are they really more committed to a guy like Wheeler?
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:13 pm

phutatorius wrote:Is this a service-time thing with Hagadone, or are they really more committed to a guy like Wheeler?


I think it's an issue where they'd rather see Hagadone get regular work as opposed to being the mop-up guy when the team is up/down big like Wheeler. Which does make sense...I wouldn't want him to be up here pitching once every 10 days. But if he makes himself a better option that Raffy or Sipp, both of whom have struggled in spurts, then I say bring him up.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:17 pm

gotribe31 wrote:I think it's an issue where they'd rather see Hagadone get regular work as opposed to being the mop-up guy when the team is up/down big like Wheeler. Which does make sense...I wouldn't want him to be up here pitching once every 10 days.


The problem with that rationale is that he was in the Majors for 5 days and pitched in 3 games.

I agree with you that this was probably the Tribe's thought process, but the reality doesn't match up with that.

We already have a mop-up guy in Ascencio too, so Hagadone could easily have been given regular work as opposed to waiting around for the 3 inning stints.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:27 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:I think it's an issue where they'd rather see Hagadone get regular work as opposed to being the mop-up guy when the team is up/down big like Wheeler. Which does make sense...I wouldn't want him to be up here pitching once every 10 days.


The problem with that rationale is that he was in the Majors for 5 days and pitched in 3 games.

I agree with you that this was probably the Tribe's thought process, but the reality doesn't match up with that.

We already have a mop-up guy in Ascencio too, so Hagadone could easily have been given regular work as opposed to waiting around for the 3 inning stints.


I think they just used the heck out of him since they knew he was going back down in a few days anyway. If they think he's a better option than Sipp or Raffy, he'd be on the roster.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:06 pm

phutatorius wrote:Is this a service-time thing with Hagadone, or are they really more committed to a guy like Wheeler?




I think its more they dont feel Hagadone is quite ready yet or they want him pitching in high pressure situations in triple a as opposed to mop up situations because in the Indians eyes he would be behind smith, sipp, pestano, and Chris Perez in the pecking order. Maybe even Raffy Perez.

Whether people agree with it or not, it appears in their eyes that they are still confident in Sipp and that he an Pestano are the 7th and 8th inning guys. Then Smith and Perez are used before them. So if Hagadone is up here he wouldnt be used nearly as much as he would in triple A where he could continue his development into an 8th inning guy and work on things like his command.


So really it appears the situation/discussion point with Hagadone is whether or not people buy into the way of thinking that being an 8th inning guy in triple A is more beneficial to him than being the 6th man in an MLB bullpen.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:30 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
phutatorius wrote:Is this a service-time thing with Hagadone, or are they really more committed to a guy like Wheeler?


I think it's an issue where they'd rather see Hagadone get regular work as opposed to being the mop-up guy when the team is up/down big like Wheeler. Which does make sense...I wouldn't want him to be up here pitching once every 10 days.


This. It's not a commitment to Wheeler, it's that Wheeler is a veteran who knows his role on this team is the mop-up guy. Also, like daz said, they have another one in Asencio, although, Acta has gone to Asencio in a couple medium leverage spots against RHB. I think Acta trusts Asencio more with a tired Smith & Pestano than Wheeler, which I agree with.

You just don't put promising prospects in the long relief role. It doesn't benefit anybody.

Sipp's going on back-to-back solid outings now. I'd still keep him on a short leash.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Sipp's only had one bad game.

Many more must follow for him to lose his job.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:55 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Sipp's only had one bad game.

Many more must follow for him to lose his job.


Tony Sipp has had three years of mediocre relieving. It's not one bad game. Again, he's a negative WAR player for his career, with 4.79 BB/9, and a career FIP of 4.64.

This isn't some new development.

Guy just isn't very good.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby statmasta » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:48 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Sipp's only had one bad game.

Many more must follow for him to lose his job.


Tony Sipp has had three years of mediocre relieving. It's not one bad game. Again, he's a negative WAR player for his career, with 4.79 BB/9, and a career FIP of 4.64.

This isn't some new development.

Guy just isn't very good.

According to who? Baseball Reference had Sipp's WAR at 1.3 last year, and 1.9 for his career. And Sipp may walk guys, but he makes up for it by not giving up hits. He has a career .209 BAA.
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Re: A-Cab is back...

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:18 pm

statmasta wrote:According to who? Baseball Reference had Sipp's WAR at 1.3 last year, and 1.9 for his career. And Sipp may walk guys, but he makes up for it by not giving up hits. He has a career .209 BAA.


Fangraphs is where I looked.

Huh, that's an interesting discrepancy between the two sites.
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