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Question on Kalil

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Question on Kalil

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:06 pm

Simple ?: How much better is the Browns offense in 2012 if we pick him at #4? I ask b/c I'm beginning to think this will happen.

When answering, DO NOT get into, 22, 37, etc., as if it's part of a strategy. For one, we don't know what will happen later on. Second, the #4 pick needs to be good on it's own, not as part of a "strategy."
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:11 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:Simple ?: How much better is the Browns offense in 2012 if we pick him at #4? I ask b/c I'm beginning to think this will happen.


Marginally, if at all.

Depends on the playmakers hopefully drafted with the next two picks if this idiocy were to occur.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby rk » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:05 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:Simple ?: How much better is the Browns offense in 2012 if we pick him at #4? I ask b/c I'm beginning to think this will happen.

When answering, DO NOT get into, 22, 37, etc., as if it's part of a strategy. For one, we don't know what will happen later on. Second, the #4 pick needs to be good on it's own, not as part of a "strategy."


I don't know how you avoid getting into the rest of the picks. You assume it has to be good on its own but everything is relative. A good player at 4 when you could have had an nearly equally effective player at 22 is the difference between a draft that changes the fortunes of a team and a draft that just keeps them treading water.. In a vacuum if the Browns had only one pick in this draft and they selected Kalil at 4 I think it would be just as much of an impact as any other single player. He is a quality player who is almost universally regarded as a top-10 talent. And he could potentially play a position (RT) that is a great need for the Browns.

I would not go into shock if he is there and selected by the Browns. But I would not think it would be the best move to leverage their selections.

JB is wrong if he thinks that a significant upgrade at RT would only marginally affect this team when compared to an upgrade at WR or RB. Since the Browns offense was unable to protect the QB, run, or pass last year if they were to add him and he was effective at RT it would take one of the worst offenses in the league and potentially help them be effective - if still not good in comparison to other teams.

Also if this is a two year drafting strategy with an eye towards fixing the WR/QB/RT/RB positions by next year because it is unlikely to be completely fixed this year then it would be smart to start with the OL.

All that being said he's gone at 3.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:41 pm

rk wrote: Since the Browns offense was unable to protect the QB, run, or pass last year.



First, the guards were as much culprits as the twin suckmonster Oneil ex-Packer Bum when the OL was awful early on.

Second, if you have Colt throwing to Cribbs and handing off to Hurtishe's back up, nothing of significance changes.

The Browns need an ORT very very badly to be sure.

But Kalil is like buying a Kobe fillet to make into a burger when you have 20 minutes to hammer down maintenance lunch when you are in the car from point A to point B.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:23 pm

The issue with Kalil is the player. It's not the money or the draft spot. It's him. He's not a RT. I'm sure he could play it and it'd be great to have a Joe Thomas clone in case Joe Thomas went down. Value there for sure. But he's a technician and a really good pass blocker. He has no 'nasty' to him. I think he's 'elite' as a left tackle, great insurance as a LT and a decent RT.

If you're okay with that from #4 then take him if he's available. I you want a down and dirty, legit RT then get back to the 10-20 range and grab Rieff or DeCastro and pick up a pick.

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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:22 pm

peeker643 wrote:The issue with Kalil is the player. It's not the money or the draft spot. It's him. He's not a RT. I'm sure he could play it and it'd be great to have a Joe Thomas clone in case Joe Thomas went down. Value there for sure. But he's a technician and a really good pass blocker. He has no 'nasty' to him. I think he's 'elite' as a left tackle, great insurance as a LT and a decent RT.

If you're okay with that from #4 then take him if he's available. I you want a down and dirty, legit RT then get back to the 10-20 range and grab Rieff or DeCastro and pick up a pick.

YMMV


NOTE: I'll laugh hysterically if they go Kalil at 4, but I wanted to get the pulse of others here. That said, follow-up: What impact, on the offense, would a true RT have?
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby pup » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:26 pm

Do you need a nasty SOB at RT to pass protect 65% of the snaps and run draws for half of the other 35?
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby rk » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:59 am

jb wrote:First, the guards were as much culprits as the twin suckmonster Oneil ex-Packer Bum when the OL was awful early on.


Agree but they got better little by little and the OL does function as a unit so alternating pro-bowl caliber OLmen with middle-of-the-road guys squished between is much more effective then the gap the Browns had at the RT/RG. I'd be fine if the Browns pulled the trigger on a OG early but would feel better if they got someone more geared towards pass protection on the edge.

Second, if you have Colt throwing to Cribbs and handing off to Hurtishe's back up, nothing of significance changes.


Maybe. I think you'll see Little be more effective. He was extremely raw. But obviously it would be better to have him paired with Blackmon then Cribbs.

But Kalil is like buying a Kobe fillet to make into a burger when you have 20 minutes to hammer down maintenance lunch when you are in the car from point A to point B.


What a terrible analogy. You don't have to savor a gourmet Kobe burger to acknowledge how much better it is for you than the Wendy's 99 cent cheeseburger that you're just going to end up crapping out 30 minutes later. Spend the money. Protect your colon.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby mistero » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:22 am

I've heard from multiple people that a LT cannot convert to RT with out a ajor learning curve. It was compared to a right handed QB being drafted and then asked to throw with his left. Wasted pick.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby pup » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:21 am

mistero wrote:I've heard from multiple people that a LT cannot convert to RT with out a ajor learning curve. It was compared to a right handed QB being drafted and then asked to throw with his left. Wasted pick.


Didn't he play RT for a couple years at SC?
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:05 pm

mistero wrote:I've heard from multiple people that a LT cannot convert to RT with out a ajor learning curve. It was compared to a right handed QB being drafted and then asked to throw with his left. Wasted pick.


SD:

One of the best RT prospects in this draft is playing LT , the pug from UGA is 345 lbs and has length , and while not the elite nimble footed guy you want playing LT at the next level he's an ideal RT RG slugger big wide body brute. for running right , with the long arms to keep defenders at bay in the passing game.

Kalil is wasted at that spot , you could trade out add picks and get a dedicated brute to play the spot and maximize the pick.


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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:08 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:Simple ?: How much better is the Browns offense in 2012 if we pick him at #4? I ask b/c I'm beginning to think this will happen.

When answering, DO NOT get into, 22, 37, etc., as if it's part of a strategy. For one, we don't know what will happen later on. Second, the #4 pick needs to be good on it's own, not as part of a "strategy."


SD:

You get the same value from the first round to the fourth as long as you get the right sized body type with length .

Using Kalil at RT is like having Picasso paint your house instead of doing a portrait of your house.


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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:09 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
CleSportsTruth wrote:Simple ?: How much better is the Browns offense in 2012 if we pick him at #4? I ask b/c I'm beginning to think this will happen.

When answering, DO NOT get into, 22, 37, etc., as if it's part of a strategy. For one, we don't know what will happen later on. Second, the #4 pick needs to be good on it's own, not as part of a "strategy."


SD:

You get the same value from the first round to the fourth as long as you get the right sized body type with length .

Using Kalil at RT is like having Picasso paint your house instead of doing a portrait of your house.


SoulDawg



Right on. The point eludes polpottter but not you.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:14 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
mistero wrote:I've heard from multiple people that a LT cannot convert to RT with out a ajor learning curve. It was compared to a right handed QB being drafted and then asked to throw with his left. Wasted pick.


SD:

One of the best RT prospects in this draft is playing LT , the pug from UGA is 345 lbs and has length , and while not the elite nimble footed guy you want playing LT at the next level he's an ideal RT RG slugger big wide body brute. for running right , with the long arms to keep defenders at bay in the passing game.

Kalil is wasted at that spot , you could trade out add picks and get a dedicated brute to play the spot and maximize the pick.


SoulDawg


That's Cordy Glenn and you're right. But he's nastier than Kalil.

Again, Kalil could play it and be great insurance. My fear is him being a technician that's crafted his mechanics around the left side. It's different leverage and attributes on the other side.


But at #4?

Nuh uh...
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby rk » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:04 pm

jb wrote:Right on. The point eludes polpottter but not you.


The point doesn't elude me. It's just nonsensical. We're not getting a house painted but the question is if we were would it look different if Picasso painted it then if Jason Pinkston painted it. The answer is that it would look a lot different and since most people seem to be fond of Picasso's vision it would look great to most people.

A better comparison is a track relay team. You have people that are great at starting. You have people that are great in between. And you have people that are great anchoring.

The question posed is not one of opportunity cost which is what both you and SD can't avoid discussing. The question is if you did draft Kalil would he help. So back to my analogy. You are the US Olympic track team. You have your anchor. He is the best in the world. You have the ability to add a guy from college but he is also an anchor. He is still the fastest guy from college but may be margininalized slightly going from anchor to somewhere in the middle.

You still get him because he is better than anyone else at the middle position even if that is not where he is most effective.

In my opinion if you got Kalil at 4 he would make a significant, noticeable impact on the Browns offense. We're not discussing whether that effect would be more or less than Adams, Reiff, or Martin - just whether or not Kalil in a vacuum would be able to provide that impact. I have already said and will say again that Kalil is not a good value at RT over those other guys who may be had at 22 or 37 (or if Adams falls even later). He is an even worse value if you just look at the 4th pick in a vacuum comparing him to the skill guys who are available.

But unlike you and SD I can actually discuss hypotheticals without acting like a radio caller who insists on making the same point regardless of the current topic of conversation.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:19 pm

rk wrote:
jb wrote:Right on. The point eludes polpottter but not you.


The point doesn't elude me. It's just nonsensical. We're not getting a house painted but the question is if we were would it look different if Picasso painted it then if Jason Pinkston painted it. The answer is that it would look a lot different and since most people seem to be fond of Picasso's vision it would look great to most people.

A better comparison is a track relay team. You have people that are great at starting. You have people that are great in between. And you have people that are great anchoring.

The question posed is not one of opportunity cost which is what both you and SD can't avoid discussing. The question is if you did draft Kalil would he help. So back to my analogy. You are the US Olympic track team. You have your anchor. He is the best in the world. You have the ability to add a guy from college but he is also an anchor. He is still the fastest guy from college but may be margininalized slightly going from anchor to somewhere in the middle.

You still get him because he is better than anyone else at the middle position even if that is not where he is most effective.

In my opinion if you got Kalil at 4 he would make a significant, noticeable impact on the Browns offense. We're not discussing whether that effect would be more or less than Adams, Reiff, or Martin - just whether or not Kalil in a vacuum would be able to provide that impact. I have already said and will say again that Kalil is not a good value at RT over those other guys who may be had at 22 or 37 (or if Adams falls even later). He is an even worse value if you just look at the 4th pick in a vacuum comparing him to the skill guys who are available.

But unlike you and SD I can actually discuss hypotheticals without acting like a radio caller who insists on making the same point regardless of the current topic of conversation.



SD:

Too bad you you missed the point so widely its tantamount to a guy who can't find his own ass with both hands .

Kalil at 4 is over kill its dropping a hammer on an ant, his value is left tackle we don't need a left tackle , he brings nothing to the table a bonafide dedicated RT couldn't do at the same spot with more effect in a more cost efficient usage of that draft resource allocation .

Moreover Kalils true value is in a trade able asset , so you double down you stoopidity by keeping him in lieu of maximizing his value and securing the position with just as capable a project later and picking up bonus picks .

You don't have Picasso paint your house stoopid .

The value is having him paint a portrait of your house .

You pay the same money , but one gives you a paint job , the other provides you with an asset worth millions.

So Endeth the Lesson.

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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby pup » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:29 pm

Can Kalil play RT? I think so.
Is Kalil good enough to be drafted at 4? Yes.
Are the Browns drafting Kalil at 4? No fucking way.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:56 pm

pup wrote:
mistero wrote:I've heard from multiple people that a LT cannot convert to RT with out a ajor learning curve. It was compared to a right handed QB being drafted and then asked to throw with his left. Wasted pick.


Didn't he play RT for a couple years at SC?


He played there some his freshman year.

After redshirting his initial year at USC, Kalil served as backup to Tyron Smith at right tackle. He started against Boston College and performed well, and saw limited action in 11 other games (all but Arizona State) and played primarily on special teams. In his sophomore year, Kalil beat Smith to replace Charles Brown at left tackle, where he started all 13 games.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:02 pm

I don't think SD read RK's post.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:04 pm

I don't know what is going on, but gnati and Polpot being around here have made this place 200x more enjoyable.

It's like it's 2002 all over again.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby jb » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:24 pm

rk wrote:
jb wrote:Right on. The point eludes polpottter but not you.


The point doesn't elude me. It's just nonsensical.


IOW, it eludes you.

Peeker is 100% correct. At ORT, anywhere on the board, Cordy Glenn > Ryan Kalil. At 22, J Martin >> Ryan Kalil @ 4 due to value.

The rest is no-sense and mental masturbation.
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Re: Question on Kalil

Unread postby rk » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:11 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I don't think SD read RK's post.


I'm pretty sure he read the last sentence. He even highlighted it.

jb wrote:The rest is no-sense and mental masturbation.


Jim. Ignore the thread for a second and make a stab at this hypothetical. The Browns had an free extra pick last year and drafted the 2012 version of Kalil but otherwise made the exact same personell decisions. How much better were the 2011 Browns with Kalil at RT then the 2011 Browns sans Kalil?

IMHO he would have significantly improved the team from well below mediocrity to possibly mediocre. Maybe even middling. I don't believe the running game would have improved significantly but Colt would have had more time to wait for Cribbs and Little to not get open. Maybe even enough time to notice Evan Moore waving his hands and jumping up and down.
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