Cleveland Frowns and Chief Wahoo

[TribeinLA]

I think Cleveland Do-Do Birds would do well, but if an animal is extinct, is that better or worse?

And the Compton Black Skins...I like it.

[peeker643]

I edited it because I felt I went too far and there's no need to pick a fight on here about a dumb logo.

And yes, the Redskins logo should go first.

No one would accept a team called the "blackskins", "yellowskins", or "brownskins".

What about the 'Foreskins'? Jews okay with that or completely pissed. I don't even know anymore.

[leadpipe]

Anyone remember when one of the Braves hit a dong, Chief Nakahoma used to do an Indian war dance around his makeshift TP.

Right out of Blazing Saddles.

[Squints]

^^^^^^^^^^ I applaud you, my good man.

I have tried to ignore this thread because I hate, hate weighing on controversial topics on a message board, I do no enough of that at work.

Spin's comment about "they do surveys" and mother's reaction reminded me of family vacation road trips to the Grand Canyon during my teenage years. This was back in the early 90's, before the Indians were good and when the pc movement was in its infancy. We stopped at a Navaho flea market in Arizona. I saw 4 grown men and younger men with Indians caps on- Chief Wahoo. Me, being the out-going person that I am, went up and talked to them- saying hey that's my team, I'm from Cleveland and since we have a connection how about dropping that price on that topaz necklace that I want to by my girlfriend. I also asked two of the people in the Indians hats if they found that logo offensive because there is a movement to get these nicknames abolished. Both of them said that not one of them cares or is offended by it and I'm pretty sure they spoke for the vast majority of at least the people they knew.

Small sample size? Yes. A true sample size of actual Native Americans versus white guilt or some person with 1/10th Cherokee blood who lives in Hudson? Absolutely. Does it make it right? Maybe, maybe not.

Me? that pretty much sold me on the chief until recent years that I chose not to wear it because I just think it's a goofy logo that has passed its sell by date. My personal decision that I made but I certainly don't judge anyone who does wear it unless they do it to "piss people off." I got my block C hats, 70's style C and a few shirts with the script Indians and I'm good to go.

[T_N_T]

If Chief Wahoo goes, IMO, all sports mascots referring to any nationality should go, and the tomahawk chop should be banned at any sporting event, because thats worse than Chief Wahoo IMO. I've never understood the protests/complaints against it. I guess we should just have the most generic mascots in sports possible because anything closely related to anything might offend someone,somewhere. I have to add this too, since I have moved to the south from Ohio a lot of people here call me a "Yankee". That offends me a bit, so should I protest the New York "Yankees" because I am offended by that name, and will it ever get changed because of my protests?NO.Why? Because the Yankees are the biggest franchise in Major League Baseball and they will stay the Yankees forever. Why should it be any different for the Indians?

[motherscratcher]

[Cerebral_DownTime]

My bad. I didn't realize "they" did surveys. I guess Chief Wahoo isn't a racist caricature after all.

Of course they did. It's science.

I also love the idea that because people are white, they're opinion isn't valid.

Or the lame ass line "white guilt'. I don't feel guilty for shit, my people where still in Bavaria when crackers were raping and stealing from the natives. I just think it's stupid to use an ethnic group as a mascot. That's all.

[FUDU]

Honestly mo, what is it about the chief Wahoo logo that carries such a racist context?

It is b/c it is an Indians face smiling?

Is it b/c it is just an Indians face?

I respect your opinion so I am asking honestly.

[Spin]

I grew up in a school system that had an Indian nickname and logo, named after the township the school was in. They had Native Americans run out on the field in full dress before games. I got my ass kicked very Friday night for the Chippewas ("Chipps").

We've never heard any of that crap about changing names and logos, except for an occasional bleeding heart looking for something to bitch about. Thank god acid rain came along and they jumped on that bandwagon and left us alone...

[pod2dawg]

My friends of American Native descent have no real issues with the Tribe or the Redskins. In fact they find it pretty cool our nation's capitol cherished football franchise chose to be the Redskins. They feel there may be a message in there somewhere.

Now they are annoyed the Tribe doesn't win more, and the "skins" have been in the dumpster for awhile.

What they are really are pissed about is the whole yellow fever thing, broken treaties, impoverished reservations, broken promises , Wounded Knee, Andrew Jackson, Manhattan...stuff like that. They really aren't big fans of Manifest Destiny either.

They do like the "casino" action and welcome busloads of Tribe & Redskin fans wearing their gear to any of their many resorts.

[Larvell Blanks]

I grew up in a school system that had an Indian nickname and logo, named after the township the school was in. They had Native Americans run out on the field in full dress before games. I got my ass kicked very Friday night for the Chippewas ("Chipps").

We've never heard any of that crap about changing names and logos, except for an occasional bleeding heart looking for something to bitch about. Thank god acid rain came along and they jumped on that bandwagon and left us alone...

Being named after an actual tribe doesn't seem to be quite as offensive as a term such as Redskins or Redmen, unless your named after a bunch of 40 year olds who didn't use sunscreen at a Sandals Resort.

[Rat_Tail]

If Jersey Shore can shame Italian-Americans like myself, I can represent Chief Wahoo proudly and not give a hoot what politically correct white people think of it.

You have no idea how happy it makes me that you're on the other side of this thing (with Chuck Booms) and the majority of Tribe fans.

There are around 3 stupid things in your one sentence, but holy fuck, the Jersey Shore defense is incredible.

I just don't see why this needs to be brought up every year when Chief Wahoo will probably be gone completely within the next 5.

It's not like every other race/nationality is represented perfectly and we're only picking on Native Americans.

But if you want to stand up for the Natives like these people, be my guest.
http://gc2000.org/gc2000news/photos/gck/gc2kk16.jpg

[motherscratcher]

^^^^thats a great point, because if history has shown us anything, it's that when the majority of Cleveland sports fans think something, they are never wrong.

Also, I'm being swayed my your ironclad argument that it's been brought up before so we should never have to discuss it again; and that racism exists in other places so there's no need to worry about it here.

[motherscratcher]

Honestly mo, what is it about the chief Wahoo logo that carries such a racist context?

It is b/c it is an Indians face smiling?

Is it b/c it is just an Indians face?

I respect your opinion so I am asking honestly.

Sorry FU, missed this earlier.

I'm not sure and I'm not trying to come of like I think I'm some kind of expert on racism or the plight of the American Indian. But when I look at Chief Wahoo, I see a caricature that exaggerates every stereotypical quality associated with a race of people that our ancestors damn near wiped off the face of the earth. The red face and the big hook nose.

I look and I can't see a damn bit of difference between the logo and the black caricatures with the big red lips, nappy hair carrying watermelons...or the Asian with his squinty eyes and big buck teeth.

The Chief was made at a time when the overt racism was an accepted norm and he only furthers the idea that these people are somehow lesser humans.

And I absolutely understand that the vast majority of Cleveland fans don't feel anything remotely like that when looking at the Chief. Therein lies the problem.

Maybe I'll expound on a few of these thoughts later because I understand that I've come off as completely fanatical in this thread. I understand that the majority of you could care less and are sick of this. Feel free to just skip over the thread then.

Except you RatTail...you keep posting. It only makes me look better.

[leadpipe]

Honestly mo, what is it about the chief Wahoo logo that carries such a racist context?

It is b/c it is an Indians face smiling?

Is it b/c it is just an Indians face?

I respect your opinion so I am asking honestly.

Sorry FU, missed this earlier.

I'm not sure and I'm not trying to come of like I think I'm some kind of expert on racism or the plight of the American Indian. But when I look at Chief Wahoo, I see a caricature that exaggerates every stereotypical quality associated with a race of people that our ancestors damn near wiped off the face of the earth. The red face and the big hook nose.

I look and I can't see a damn bit of difference between the logo and the black caricatures with the big red lips, nappy hair carrying watermelons...or the Asian with his squinty eyes and big buck teeth.

The Chief was made at a time when the overt racism was an accepted norm and he only furthers the idea that these people are somehow lesser humans.

And I absolutely understand that the vast majority of Cleveland fans don't feel anything remotely like that when looking at the Chief. Therein lies the problem.

Maybe I'll expound on a few of these thoughts later because I understand that I've come off as completely fanatical in this thread. I understand that the majority of you could care less and are sick of this. Feel free to just skip over the thread then.

Except you RatTail...you keep posting. It only makes me look better.

I think you hit the nail on the head - that the vast majority of fans don't feel racism when looking at the Chief.

I know for me, it's holding hands with my Dad as he scurried me thru the muny lot toward the old stadium trying to make it in time for a twi-night doubleheader. Watching the Chief at Municipal getting closer and closer. And as that kid it never occured to me, or better said, I was oblivious to the obvious racial sterotypes of the thing.

Kinda like certain music. Many of us talked about this earlier this year when Clarence Cleamons passed. It's not so much that he represented "great music" persay, it's that he represented a time in many of our lives that was worth remembering.

So, partly because of this, and partly because I can be an apathetic asshole at times, I pretty much ignore the topic. Don't really care.

But, if I'm cornered on the topic, Christ, it's pretty clear how the thing can be viewed as extremely offensive. And if it goes, it's clearly justifiable.

Lastly, I've found that on just about all topics, if you go "Bizzaro Rat Tail" you're pretty much right on the money.

[skatingtripods]

Do people of Native American descent even care? Two thirds of the people I saw protesting didn't look the slightest bit Native American.

If people of Native American descent do care, they're probably the same ones with a sense of entitlement about the system because they can get free shit for being 1/32 Cherokee.

Whatever. It's of no concern to me. I happen to like the Chief.

[Spin]

Who here gives two shits whether women are alllowed at Augusta or not?

[FUDU]

Honestly mo, what is it about the chief Wahoo logo that carries such a racist context?

It is b/c it is an Indians face smiling?

Is it b/c it is just an Indians face?

I respect your opinion so I am asking honestly.

Sorry FU, missed this earlier.

I'm not sure and I'm not trying to come of like I think I'm some kind of expert on racism or the plight of the American Indian. But when I look at Chief Wahoo, I see a caricature that exaggerates every stereotypical quality associated with a race of people that our ancestors damn near wiped off the face of the earth. The red face and the big hook nose.

I look and I can't see a damn bit of difference between the logo and the black caricatures with the big red lips, nappy hair carrying watermelons...or the Asian with his squinty eyes and big buck teeth.

The Chief was made at a time when the overt racism was an accepted norm and he only furthers the idea that these people are somehow lesser humans.

And I absolutely understand that the vast majority of Cleveland fans don't feel anything remotely like that when looking at the Chief. Therein lies the problem.

Maybe I'll expound on a few of these thoughts later because I understand that I've come off as completely fanatical in this thread. I understand that the majority of you could care less and are sick of this. Feel free to just skip over the thread then.

Except you RatTail...you keep posting. It only makes me look better.

That's a fair response, and I think Lead hit on a good point as well about times past and remembering.

But one thing I take from your post mo, and correct me if I'm way off, is that you seem to truly believe the logo was done in the caricature style it was with a significant amount of intention to subtly or not so subtly poke fun at the Native Americans.

Me, I see the smile of Chief Wahoo as a portrayal of an optimistic outlook for the team and their upcoming games. An angry looking Chief with a tomahawk wouldn't seem to be the way to go either, no? Would it be better if the Chief wasn't smiling,I don't now, but it would be more accurate.

Maybe the logo should be more like :-/ regardless of what type of figure should replace the Chief.

[motherscratcher]

Peter's (Cleveland Frowns) article is up at Scene.

I haven't read it yet, but I'm guessing it's worth a look, no matter where you stand on the topic.

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-curse-of-chief-wahoo/Content?oid=2954423

No word yet on when Booms has rescheduled the debate for.

[ChoccoIndians]

Being in Australia don't here much of the arguments in regard to Chief Wahoo, has there been any talks at all about a reduced Presence of Chief Wahoo in 2013, or will he still be on the sleeve of all uniforms and on the home cap.

I have noticed a reduced number of appearances of him in the last 3 years, and just wondering if front office are moving closer to reducing the Chief even more?

[swerb]

Indians have consistently and discretely reduced the presence of Chief Wahoo the last 10 years. Be shocked if that doesn't continue.

[ChoccoIndians]

Indians have consistently and discretely reduced the presence of Chief Wahoo the last 10 years. Be shocked if that doesn't continue.

The fact there has been no announcements yet, I would be fairly confident there will be no uniform change in 2013.

Doing a little math if you say that Cleveland's Uniforms work generally like this:


Monday, Home Uniform, Away Uniform
Tuesday, Alt Blue, Away Uniform
Wednesday, Home Uniform, Away Uniform
Thursday, Home Uniform, Away Uniform
Friday, Home/Alt Red, Away Uniform
Saturday, Alt Red, Away Uniform
Sunday, Alt Red, Alt Blue

Then we have gone from wearing Wahoo on our cap 82% of the time 2 years ago to 40% now.

I think Wahoo is being phased out very slowly.

[ChoccoIndians]

So Chief Wahoo is no longer on our home helmets, the pattern of phasing out wahoo continues.

I get the feeling they are testing the water this year with the helmet, and I hope I am wrong but a block C cap will be worn in all home games in 2014 or 2015.

[swerb]

I don't think they'll totally nuke Chief Wahoo, but it is clearly devolving into the alternate logo/uni.

[pup]

MLB required all teams to move to one logo on home/away helmets. They think representing the city with the "C" is more important than the logo.

Relax.

[peeker643]

[motherscratcher]

MLB required all teams to move to one logo on home/away helmets. They think representing the city with the "C" is more important than the logo.

Relax.

This. I read about it a few weeks ago. They had to pick one or the other and picked the "C". The Indians even came out after and said that they were not phasing out the Chief.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Just get rid of the fucking logo(and the stupid team name for that matter). This isn't India, so we have no Indians. If the team was called the Cleveland Shines, had a grinning minstrel logo, would that be ok? If they were called the Cleveland Heebs, had a Goebbels inspired logo with a big hook nose, would that be ok?

"I don't want to give into PC pressure"

Fuck you. That's the dumbest argument ever.

[peeker643]

Isn't there already a thread on this?

Get rid of it then. Or don't. Either way is fine as long as I don't have to listen to arguments on either side any more

[1Perry]

Just get rid of the fucking logo(and the stupid team name for that matter). This isn't India, so we have no Indians. If the team was called the Cleveland Shines, had a grinning minstrel logo, would that be ok? If they were called the Cleveland Heebs, had a Goebbels inspired logo with a big hook nose, would that be ok?

"I don't want to give into PC pressure"

Fuck you. That's the dumbest argument ever.

I've always believed that telling someone "fuck you" is the most persuasive argument around. Surely there has never been anyone not persuaded by this argument.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Fuck you.

I'm right.

[T_N_T]

If we get rid of Chief Wahoo, we have to change the name of the team, the block C just doesn't make sense. We are the Cleveland "Indians" after all. If you are of the stance that The Chief is offensive, why then is the name not just as offensive to you?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

[motherscratcher]

Agree. The "C" doesn't make any sense at all for the Cleveland Indians. None whatsoever. It'd be like if the Red Sox put a big "B" on their hat or if the Yankees had a big "NY" on theirs.

It ludicrous.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I vote for "Spiders".

[peeker643]

I vote for "Spiders".

I'd vote for "Half-wits" in honor of the fan base.

[motherscratcher]

I vote for "Spiders".

.
I'd vote for "Half-wits" in honor of the fan base.

Wouldn't that make us half again as smart as most fan bases? At least, that's the only conclusion I can reach reading threads on ESPN

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Ehhh Lets just rename the team after whichever sponsor would pay the most. I would be okay with the Cleveland Car Care and Tires or Cleveland Frozen Custards if it meant an extra $10 million a year One small caveat though, I demand the new logo would have to be either a smiling tire or an ice cream cone....and it would have to be red.

[motherscratcher]

I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of money that's in frozen custard

[leadpipe]

Do you think Chief Wahoo, and all the Injuns he hung around with had collarbones?

[Dnthateonthepronk]

I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of money that's in frozen custard

Im just basing it on the amount of commercials I see during games

[Am I Here Again?]

If frozen custard is the naming sponsor I demand a free cone for every fan, every game.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Why not just call them the Cleveland Bohunks? The logo could be 4 polish guys trying to figure out how to screw in a light bulb. I feel like it kills 2 birds with one stone, you get your bigotry and it's more historically accurate to the population demographic of the area.

My back up name is kind of wordy, but it works on the same level. The Cleveland Bug Eating Micks. The logo would feature a intoxicated red haired man with raised fist, while his spouse cowers in fear of the reckoning.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

If frozen custard is the naming sponsor I demand a free cone for every fan, every game.

I like it. I think we have something here. I wonder of DiBiasio reads these boards?

[statmasta]

The C on the home helmet is tolerable

But not having a red brim on the home helmet? That's just stupid. Now it feels like we're wearing road helmets at home.

[peeker643]

Jesus.

You guys worry about a lot of stupid shit.

Reminds me of my younger brother who cared less about wins, losses and who was playing SS than whether the stripe down his pants matched the socks.

Personally I don't give a shit what they wear.

Not what I go to see and no more or less pleasing to the eye when Ubaldo is wearing any of it.

[leadpipe]

Jesus.

You guys worry about a lot of stupid shit.

Reminds me of my younger brother who cared less about wins, losses and who was playing SS than whether the stripe down his pants matched the socks.

Personally I don't give a shit what they wear.

Not what I go to see and no more or less pleasing to the eye when Ubaldo is wearing any of it.

No shit.

You know what helmet looks good - the one on the head of a playa.

You know what helmet I hate - the one on Shelly Duncan's skull.

Jesus who gives a shit about shirt colors.

[FUDU]

Not only should we keep the name and the logo but I think they should hand out tomahawks, and frankly they fucked up from the start by not making the Jake a dome in the shape of a teepee.

[YahooFanChicago]

According to the linked poll 79% of American's seem to support the Washington Redskins name.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-poll-finds-widespread-support-171947850.html

[7foot3]

According to the linked poll 79% of American's seem to support the Washington Redskins name.
http://news.yahoo.com/us-poll-finds-widespread-support-171947850.html

The white stay-at-home mom thinks we've made too big a deal of race relations in this country. Everybody pack it up and go home.