Cleveland Frowns and Chief Wahoo

[motherscratcher]

owner, operator, and proprietor of Cleveland Frowns, Peter Pattakos, called into Baskin and Phelps during a debate about Chief Wahoo. He's also apparently writing on the subject to appear in an upcoming Scene.

I haven't gotten to my computer to listen to it yet, but Chuck Booms called in to shout at Peter about the issue and Peter will apparently be on Kiley and Booms tomorrow morning at 8 if anyone is interested in the subject and feels like listening to an intelligent man argue with a moron who's shouting at him.

Im aware I'm in the minority around here but I've long been on the side of getting rid of the Chief. The fact that I'm on the opposite side of the issue from the most intolerable Cleveland Sports radio personality in history (a history that includes Aaron Goldhammer no less) can only make me even more sure I'm on the right side of it.

[peeker643]

owner, operator, and proprietor of Cleveland Frowns, Peter Pattakos, called into Baskin and Phelps during a debate about Chief Wahoo. He's also apparently writing on the subject to appear in an upcoming Scene.

I haven't gotten to my computer to listen to it yet, but Chuck Booms called in to shout at Peter about the issue and Peter will apparently be on Kiley and Booms tomorrow morning at 8 if anyone is interested in the subject and feels like listening to an intelligent man argue with a moron who's shouting at him.

Im aware I'm in the minority around here but I've long been on the side of getting rid of the Chief. The fact that I'm on the opposite side of the issue from the most intolerable Cleveland Sports radio personality in history (a history that includes Aaron Goldhammer no less) can only make me even more sure I'm on the right side of it.

I honestly am ambivalent about the Wahoo issue. I honestly don't care. If they phased it out without another word and it was never used again I don't think I'd notice or give a shit.

Ya know what I'd love to see very publicly killed and buried though? Chuck Booms.

Fucking terrible, one -trick pony that's not funny, not bright, not knowedgable about Cleveland sports and not willing to let this poor bastard or anyone else actually talk during an interview.

I'd rather be exposed to conversations between the Kardashians for 4 straight hours than listen to that show.

[skatingtripods]

They'll be out whining tomorrow to change the name. I'll ignore them like I always do.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Ya know what I'd love to see very publicly killed and buried though? Chuck Booms.

Fucking terrible, one -trick pony that's not funny, not bright, not knowedgable about Cleveland sports and not willing to let this poor bastard or anyone else actually talk during an interview.

I'd rather be exposed to conversations between the Kardashians for 4 straight hours than listen to that show.

Now that's both barrels.... Peek's calling for pubic death.

The logo is stupid and childish and I don't give a shit about the stupid history of it.

If it was a logo of Al Jolson's black face character and the team name was a slur for blacks, no one would stand for it.

[Triple-S]

Some guy called in on this during the afternoon show and kept going on about "White privledge", in regards to it. was curious what was everyone's thoughts about that on the board?

If people don't like Wahoo, then don't buy tix to the Tribe or a hat. I, actually don't associate it with anything racist. I associate it with my childhood team. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Some guy called in on this during the afternoon show and kept going on about "White privledge", in regards to it. was curious what was everyone's thoughts about that on the board?

If people don't like Wahoo, then don't buy tix to the Tribe or a hat. I, actually don't associate it with anything racist. I associate it with my childhood team. Nothing more, nothing less.

If a team had a logo of a 1930's Nazi caricature of a Jewish person with a big exaggerated nose, would you have a problem with that?

[Triple-S]

If a team had a logo of a 1930's Nazi caricature of a Jewish person with a big exaggerated nose, would you have a problem with that?

leave your beer league softball team out of this.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Why you dodging the question, homes?

[Triple-S]

Why you dodging the question, homes?

To answer it.

I would.

I also think it's sad that a f-ing logo is getting paid more attention to, over say the horrible condition that many reservations are in at the moment.

I can see why the logo would be racist, yes.

[motherscratcher]

Some guy called in on this during the afternoon show and kept going on about "White privledge", in regards to it. was curious what was everyone's thoughts about that on the board?

If people don't like Wahoo, then don't buy tix to the Tribe or a hat. I, actually don't associate it with anything racist. I associate it with my childhood team. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, have explained to the NA population that the logo gives you the warm fuzzies and you don't associate it with anything racist? I'm sure if you did that they'd forget the whole thing and by season tix.

And really? If you don't like the racist logo then you should stop being a fan and buy a different hat?

[motherscratcher]

Also, I do advocate the grizzly death of Chuck Booms. He's wasting perfectly good oxygen and we should not be tolerating it.

Of the ridiculous things he's said in his short time on radio that I've heard, by far the most offensive was his refering to himself as a "professional comic". Ironically, it's also the funniest (read only funny) thing he's said as well.

[ChoccoIndians]

I really don't see how an Indian smiling ear to ear, clearly happy causes so much issue, I love the logo and think it should stay, but in saying that if culture decides we need to let him go, I guess we start wearing the block C caps full time and move on.

[Triple-S]

And really? If you don't like the racist logo then you should stop being a fan and buy a different hat?

That was a little..insane yes.

I apologize.

[aclayman]

Number of World Championships won by the Cleveland Indians with Chief Wahoo on their lids: ZERO. A glorious history, indeed. Long live Wahoo Forever!

[justmebd]

I only buy Indians gear with Chief Wahoo on it. I refuse to buy anything with the Block C.

I do it for one reason: I LOVE getting people pissed off about complete nonsense. Who FUCKING cares about Chief Wahoo outside of a small minority of protesters. This comes up every opening day and then we don't hear about it again until next year.

If somebody told me getting rid of Chief Wahoo means we win the next 10 World Series, then he's gone. Until then, I will continue to try and piss people off over something that is completely overblown.

Yes, I'm an asshole sometimes. :)

[motherscratcher]

I only buy Indians gear with Chief Wahoo on it. I refuse to buy anything with the Block C.

I do it for one reason: I LOVE getting people pissed off about complete nonsense. Who FUCKING cares about Chief Wahoo outside of a small minority of protesters. This comes up every opening day and then we don't hear about it again until next year.

If somebody told me getting rid of Chief Wahoo means we win the next 10 World Series, then he's gone. Until then, I will continue to try and piss people off over something that is completely overblown.

Yes, I'm an asshole sometimes. :)

Me too. I'm with ya.

In fact, I only buy lawn jockeys with the really dark skin and the giant lips. Then I put big watermelons next to it because who fucking cares? It's nonsense. Hardly anyone ever protests outside my house.

And team name, colors, or logo should only be changed if there is a 10 championship guarantee.

[Larvell Blanks]

Me too. I'm with ya.

In fact, I only buy lawn jockeys with the really dark skin and the giant lips. Then I put big watermelons next to it because who fucking cares? It's nonsense. Hardly anyone ever protests outside my house.

And team name, colors, or logo should only be changed if there is a 10 championship guarantee.

Had a friend who had one of these in his front yard w/ no complaints from anyone. Once he put an OJ Simpson jersey on it during the trial, people were up in arms.

Back in the heyday of the Flats, some guy dressed up like a lawn jockey for Halloween. He walked around with a patch of Astroturf and would stand on it when he wasn't moving around. He won two of the contests that I witnessed.


We've come a long way since the late 80's/early 90's


Yes I contributed absolutley nothing to this thread, but I had to get it off my chest

[Pressrunnr]

Can't say Wahoo bothers me, because I have Wahoo gear. But I certainly wouldn't mind if it went away for any reason -- whether you call it "political correctness" or "common courtesy." But let's face it, it's not like there's a great, long, sustained winning tradition behind it historically to hang our Joe Carter-designed Wahoo hats on. And when I think of the winning teams I've seen, I associate them more with the players -- Belle, Lofton, Manny, et., etc. -- than the logo. I'm only speaking for myself, but doesn't being a Cleveland Indians fan mean the hope/belief/whatever that "the good old days" are still yet to come (sometime)?

[TribeinLA]

Lewis Grizzard once wrote that we should just change our teams' name to "THE". He did in referencing the pussified outrage against Georgia football's marching band anyway. Give it a look some time. Still timely after two decades, he was right on.

We do not have teams called the Jews and the Niggers because those are truly awful, racist terms and people with enough sense know that there would be no redeeming, heroic values of either. Indians, Braves, Tribe, Illini, Redskins (if there's one that should go...there it is...and it's Capitol Hill's team, nonetheless), Red Men, Seminoles...some go and some stay. If people would do research and realize that you cannot group, in most cases, Indians with Jews and Wetbacks, etc., then they'd chill (I would hope anyway). It's a proud salute to one of the last true warring groups and their courage, wisdom, and culture. The Indians who bitch about most of this are the same blacks who bitch about Civil Rights and lack of oppurtunities. Those from either group who are on the government tit needeth shut the hell up. Those opposed to "Indians" who feel its injustice with some authenticity, okay...I hear ya, but please take it as a compliment.

If there was a team called the Tex-Mex Wetbacks out Brownsville, TX and the logo was a dark-skinned man climbing out of a paddle boat, there might be less of a problem than what Chief Wahoo brings.

[TribeinLA]

And Chuck Booms? I have not heard a peep from him since he was doing a show with Kevin Kiley (who is in Dallas now I think). If you guys hate his show, your voice is mattering big time because nowhere in the south, to my knowledge, does he have a primetime slot. Fox Radio is an AM thing down here. ESPN has swallowed the FM market and the only huge cities like Atlanta, Jacksonville, and Memphis seem to have room for both.

[pup]

And Chuck Booms? I have not heard a peep from him since he was doing a show with Kevin Kiley (who is in Dallas now I think). If you guys hate his show, your voice is mattering big time because nowhere in the south, to my knowledge, does he have a primetime slot. Fox Radio is an AM thing down here. ESPN has swallowed the FM market and the only huge cities like Atlanta, Jacksonville, and Memphis seem to have room for both.

Nope. Kiley is here as well.

[bookelly]

Quoted from a site about team name origins:

Cleveland Indians—The Cleveland baseball team, known in the 1890s as the Spiders, had one of the first American Indians in the majors–Louis Francis Sockalexis. Sadly, the term, "Indians" was reportedly given to the team by disrespecting fans around the country. In less than three years, injuries and alcoholism forced Sockalexis out of baseball after only 367 at-bats. In 1915, two years after his death, the name was officially changed to the "Indians." Some say the name was given to honor Sockalexis. Others disagree.

By this trend; we should re-name the team "Sizemores".

[motherscratcher]

Quoted from a site about team name origins:

Cleveland Indians—The Cleveland baseball team, known in the 1890s as the Spiders, had one of the first American Indians in the majors–Louis Francis Sockalexis. Sadly, the term, "Indians" was reportedly given to the team by disrespecting fans around the country. In less than three years, injuries and alcoholism forced Sockalexis out of baseball after only 367 at-bats. In 1915, two years after his death, the name was officially changed to the "Indians." Some say the name was given to honor Sockalexis. Others disagree.

By this trend; we should re-name the team "Sizemores".

Let me quote the great Roy Munson:

Ishmael: You really should try to quit, Mr. Munson. They say it's bad for your heart, your lungs. It quickens the aging process.

Roy: Is that right. Who's done more research on the subject than the good people at the American Tobacco Industry? They say it's harmless. Why would they lie? If you're dead, you can't smoke.

I have no idea why I wouldn't use the Cleveland Indians site to get my info on this subject.

The Sockalexis story is complete bullshit.

And if the Indians were actually named after a drunk with less than 400 PA in his career, that's even more reason to change the name.

Christ, if that's the caliber of player we are honoring with the franchise name I submit that 100 years is long enough and we should officially change the name to the Cleveland Perezchicas. Because that makes almost as much sense.

[Bigfist]

Why does this subject HAVE to come up every opening day? Isn't anyone actually interested in the start of the season?

[motherscratcher]

Why does this subject HAVE to come up every opening day? Isn't anyone actually interested in the start of the season?

I brought it up because it was on the radio and twitter yesterday and today.

Is there some reason we can't talk about this and be interested in opening day at the same time?

[FUDU]

Some guy called in on this during the afternoon show and kept going on about "White privledge", in regards to it. was curious what was everyone's thoughts about that on the board?

If people don't like Wahoo, then don't buy tix to the Tribe or a hat. I, actually don't associate it with anything racist. I associate it with my childhood team. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, have explained to the NA population that the logo gives you the warm fuzzies and you don't associate it with anything racist? I'm sure if you did that they'd forget the whole thing and by season tix.

And really? If you don't like the racist logo then you should stop being a fan and buy a different hat?

Personally I just don't see the logo as being racist. If the logo was of a different context, then yeah I could see that side of it.

Are we going to get rid of the name Indians as well, is the name itself racist? Does that mean the Braves have to change theirs as well, the Redskins etc.

Do all products with names referencing NA's have to go?

I just don't see the big deal.

[Love child of shawn kemp]

So we got one team, the Browns, with no uniform logo. They do have an impish,likeable Brownie though. We got the CAVS with some dashing mustached man carrying a sword. Is there any other gay, mythic figure we could substitute for Chief Wahoo? I don't know, maybe Elton John, Ziggy Stardust, Lamar from Revenge of the Nerds?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

nm.

Not worth it.

[FUDU]

I see your point CDT, but really if it were such a big friggin deal we'd see protests about anything and everything regarding red skin trademarks, labeling and marketing every day of the week.

No different than anything else people get in a hissy about, as they drive right by the guy with a will work for food sign near an exit ramp.

Spare me the tolerance BS.

mo, not suggesting you're having a hissy on this.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I see your point CDT, but really if it were such a big friggin deal we'd see protests about anything and everything regarding red skin trademarks, labeling and marketing every day of the week.

No different than anything else people get in a hissy about, as they drive right by the guy with a will work for food sign near an exit ramp.

Spare me the tolerance BS.

mo, not suggesting you're having a hissy on this.

Simple solution: Don't use an ethnic group as a mascot.

We don't do it to any other races.

[fairvis]

Simple solution: Don't use an ethnic group as a mascot.

We don't do it to any other races.

CDT, I beg to differ.



Here's an interesting one as well... the leprechaun for other cultures.



Plus... here's a nice source of all of the offenders that use ethnic groups....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_et ... scot_names

[motherscratcher]

I'm might be willing to be swayed on this one, but there is a difference between a race and a nationality.

When someone fills out a form and has to put race, "Irish" isn't one of the options.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Uhhhh....... Leprechauns are not real. But you got me with "Fightin Irish". I'd argue they used it as a badge of pride during the anti Irish/Catholic sentiment of the last century.

WTF is the one in the bike helmet supposed to be?

And 90% of the names on that list are Native American names.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'm might be willing to be swayed on this one, but there is a difference between a race and a nationality.

When someone fills out a form and has to put race, "Irish" isn't one of the options.

Yes. I consider myself a White German-American. Or a cracker Kraut (that's OUR word and no one else can use it). Or White American Of German Descent from the region of Bavaria.

[fairvis]

Uhhhh....... Leprechauns are not real. But you got me with "Fightin Irish". I'd argue they used it as a badge of pride during the anti Irish/Catholic sentiment of the last century.

WTF is the one in the bike helmet supposed to be?

And 90% of the names on that list are Native American names.

Oh, I realized that when I read the list. And I have no clue what the bike helmet is supposed to represent. The image did strike me as funny as well.

Gaels, Celtics, Vikings, Canucks, Aztecs, Tartars, Scots, Vandals, Highlanders... all refer to ethnic backgrounds.

Now, I feel that there's a difference in referring to an ethnic background versus having a mascot that is as polarizing and racist as perhaps Chief Wahoo is.

[FUDU]

I'm might be willing to be swayed on this one, but there is a difference between a race and a nationality.

When someone fills out a form and has to put race, "Irish" isn't one of the options.

The Cleveland Others?

I'm just trying to point out this is one of those typical issues that people get all fired up about, when they're reminded of it. Like propylene glycol. It gets attention again due to the rise in popularity of Mio and such. "OMG Mio has propylene glycol in it". Yeah so does all sorts of other shit you ingest, but you didn't care until somebody told you about it. We're all guilty of doing that at some point.

I see this as a to each his own issue. I have zero problem with you having an issue with this, my problem with you stems from something else.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Uhhhh....... Leprechauns are not real. But you got me with "Fightin Irish". I'd argue they used it as a badge of pride during the anti Irish/Catholic sentiment of the last century.

WTF is the one in the bike helmet supposed to be?

And 90% of the names on that list are Native American names.

Oh, I realized that when I read the list. And I have no clue what the bike helmet is supposed to represent. The image did strike me as funny as well.

Gaels, Celtics, Vikings, Canucks, Aztecs, Tartars, Scots, Vandals, Highlanders... all refer to ethnic backgrounds.

Now, I feel that there's a difference in referring to an ethnic background versus having a mascot that is as polarizing and racist as perhaps Chief Wahoo is.

Oh.... the bike helmet guy is a Mormon. I just got it (durr).

[FUDU]

You meant moron right?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

So you're anti bike safety now, or just anti polygamy?

[ChoccoIndians]

Is the issue the color of Wahoo's skin(Being red)? Could we change home to the color of the original Indian (The won on our arm in 1948) and move on? Could keep both parties happy.

As for the name Indians, I have never heard of any major issues with the name, Indians is a general term I thought.

Perhaps if we got into talks with Native American Associations on how we can work together in having a working tribute to them it might be a step forward.

I guess living in Australia I don't understand the hate for Wahoo, I think it is the best logo in Baseball.

[andrew6586]

I'm might be willing to be swayed on this one, but there is a difference between a race and a nationality.

When someone fills out a form and has to put race, "Irish" isn't one of the options.

It may in Ireland. Just sayin.

[FUDU]

So you're anti bike safety now, or just anti polygamy?

Aren't you "Mr. Anti Anything That Has To Do With Personal Freedoms, Including Personal Habits On Being Safe Regardless Of What You're Doing".

IOW CDT do you wear a helmet when you walk, you clumsy Oaf?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

So you're anti bike safety now, or just anti polygamy?

Aren't you "Mr. Anti Anything That Has To Do With Personal Freedoms, Including Personal Habits On Being Safe Regardless Of What You're Doing".

IOW CDT do you wear a helmet when you walk, you clumsy Oaf?

Yes, i'm anti all that stuff.

And

I consider myself pretty agile for a Teuton Sasquatch. Helmet not required. I do hit my head occasionally, but that's more because shit ain't built for people my size. I ain't mad though, I got a skull like a rhino.

[Rat_Tail]

If Jersey Shore can shame Italian-Americans like myself, I can represent Chief Wahoo proudly and not give a hoot what politically correct white people think of it.

[motherscratcher]

If Jersey Shore can shame Italian-Americans like myself, I can represent Chief Wahoo proudly and not give a hoot what politically correct white people think of it.

You have no idea how happy it makes me that you're on the other side of this thing (with Chuck Booms).

There are around 3 stupid things in your one sentence, but holy fuck, the Jersey Shore defense is incredible.

[Larvell Blanks]

Rat's avatar represent's the TCF users reaction to his post.


I keep reading it and reading it and am still baffled. Dude would have been a game changer during the Civil Rights Movement

[Spin]

I only buy Indians gear with Chief Wahoo on it. I refuse to buy anything with the Block C.

I do it for one reason: I LOVE getting people pissed off about complete nonsense. Who FUCKING cares about Chief Wahoo outside of a small minority of protesters. This comes up every opening day and then we don't hear about it again until next year.

If somebody told me getting rid of Chief Wahoo means we win the next 10 World Series, then he's gone. Until then, I will continue to try and piss people off over something that is completely overblown.

Yes, I'm an asshole sometimes. :)

Exactly!!!

They have done surveys that have shown that most Native Americans couldn't care less about the logos and names, and some are actually happy that somebody recognizes they still fuckin exist.

90% of this witch hunt is white people looking for things to regret, and somehow make up for.

"I'm offended by people who are offended"

I agree with Booms though, he was good for about a week. Then his head got big and he thinks he can overtalk and talk down to anybody. And the more people who like him, the worse he gets.

Professional comic, I guess that's why he's a talk show host in Cleveland, Ohio on a station that ignores anything besides the Browns. Where you cannot wedge in another topic (other than the story of the day) with a sledgehammer.

One thing that station did for us though, is it caused KNR to rethink it's play acting on the RBS. It's actually the best show in that timeslot now, including Dan Patrick and Jim Rome on 1350.

[motherscratcher]

My bad. I didn't realize "they" did surveys. I guess Chief Wahoo isn't a racist caricature after all.

[TribeinLA]

Cerebral, I don't know why you went back and edited your post. I read it yesterday. It's not like I was personally insulted. I see what you TRIED to do there with the sterotyping, but there would never be a team called the "Wife beating Southernors". Yes, I have had people ask me if I live amongst alligators and swamps and do I celebrate Mardi Gras every god damned day. They come across more stupid than us hillbilly possum killin rebel flag wavin' wife beaters when they ask such stupid questions. Your attempt was humorous, but not in the same boat as the issue. We are the Indians...not the fighting Peyote Smokers or the Trail of Tears Leftovers or Custard's Arrow-Throwing Bitches. If any mascot should change, the REDSKINS should. That is offensive.

No, there are no mascots called the Whites, Blacks, Mexicans, or Jews. Actually, would calling us the Cleveland Native Sons be bad? That's essentially the goofed up name given to the Indians and what it should be. Cannot erase history so why bother griping about it?

People are too sensitive about labels like race. People can be proud when it's time to be proud. Meanwhile, a mascot graces a helmet or cap or jersey sleeve and it's just "too much". Poppycock. The pussification of Ammerica and people crying about things that they feel are offensive...silly and pointless. If we change Indians, than so should Atlanta, Univ of Illinois, FSU, and Washington. Hell, Cal-Berkley should drop Bears and call themselves something else. I graduated from a school that has a live Tiger mascot on our campus and PETA up our asses over it. Georgia, Tennessee, Colorado, Texas A&M, etc. use live mascots at their games. Animals, races, genders...everyone should just quit being pussiesd about it and pay their bills, raise their kids correctly, and not cheat on their wives. That would be a start of priorities people should worry about first before being butt hurt over a mascot name.

And yep...Fighting Irish is as offensive as anything, if I gave a shit. That insinuates that all Irish people have hot tempers and are fighters. It doesn't matter if a 2 foot dwarf is the face behind the name, if Indians offends then so should that. Alas, Irsih people (minus Phil Lynott) are white...and so there is no issue. The Fighting Negros would infuriate you obviously, so why doesn't that? Notre Dame ain't THAT golden enough.

We should actually chaneg our name to the Cheapskates or the HeadCase signers. Our problem right now is not our mascot, but the priorities that this front office seems to have in wanting to sell off the team. Right now, Chris Perez and Ubaldo are "joke's on us" until we can turn them both around. A Cardinal fan thanked me yesterday for taking him away because he was also a scout in the Atlantic territory and for the marlins and saw Perez and said "Perez never impressed. Velocity was decent, but he was acting like Mitch Williams, thinking he could hit triple digits and being erratic just to try to fit his role. Kid will be out of a job by the time he's 33. He got over because he closed games for good starters and played in a watered down Big East and ACC that hasn't had a CWS champion since 1958 (Miami has not won the title since the ACC took them)." So, let's worry about the team and save this bullshit pc stuff for November. We have a pennant to try to capture. Hopefully, Pestano or Sipp will help close games. After seeing Vinnie look very good against lefties, too, yesterday...well, I wanna be that guy who one game thru the season calls for a change. It's going to suck if we finish 1 GB of Detroit.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I edited it because I felt I went too far and there's no need to pick a fight on here about a dumb logo.

And yes, the Redskins logo should go first.

No one would accept a team called the "blackskins", "yellowskins", or "brownskins".