Big Dance - 2012

[e0y2e3]

KG, Bow was right, he has that high of a ceiling.

His floor is probably Camby.

You're looking at the wrong types of players in Ewing, Hakeem and Duncan.

I mean fuck this kid just grew six inches his junior year of high school (he was a PG first) and is playing on a team that doesn't ask him to score because of all their weapons.

[e0y2e3]

And that was the worst offensive game I have seen from someone that had STEADILY been improving. Whitey bugged him (which is understandable). His offense isn't there yet (again, grew six inches as a junior), but he has all of the potential to put together a KG game on O.

[e0y2e3]

Chad Ford ‏ @chadfordinsider Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
BTW, most GMs think Anthony Davis is a 4 not a 5 in the NBA. A few think he could be a 3.

^this

(but that 3 part is just silly)

[dmiles]

I do like the KG ceiling. And I easily forget that with Ewing, Olajuwon etc. I was looking at 22 year olds not a true freshman with newly minted height.

Now I did think Greg Oden was going to be one of those guys after the nat. title game. However his body type and size at that time was more similar to the other centers I mentioned. Plus he looked 30 already.

[e0y2e3]

I mean.... http://yfrog.com/0syhsvp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The Lexington police scanner is the best thing ever. Holy shit.

[jb]

But if you don't have the UNC & UK athletes then you need to do some coaching.

If you don't, coaching doesn't matter.

UK is irrelevant. I see zero banners in the rafters from the last decade.

Bump.

[jb]

I mean.... http://yfrog.com/0syhsvp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As gifted a shot blocker as I've ever seen. Makes Marvin Webster look like Sully.

[neoleo]

My two cents on the Matta discussion.

O'Brien rebuilt the program to respectability after the Ayers disaster and had the magical run in 99 with Scoonie and Redd, but he pretty much leveled out as a middle of the road (top third?) big ten team with the hopes of reaching a sweet 16. He was on record as saying that he didn't like recruiting the "one-and-done" (as they've now become known) players because of their baggage and "entourages". Because of this, you always felt he was overachieving with the Terrance Dials’, Brian Brown’s and Brent Darby's of the world. Those guys were all good four-year players for OSU, but those aren't the types of players you build national championship teams with.

Enter Matta. He instantly catapulted the recruited at OSU to the top. We're no longer looking for solid four year players from NYC and Detroit, we're now cherry picking the best talent from Ohio (save an Izzo steal here and there) and going out nationally for McDonald's all-Americans. That was unheard of at OSU before Matta.

At worst, Matta's teams have been what O'Brien's teams hoped to be: big ten champs and a sweet 16 team. At best, Matta gives you a shot at a final four/national championship every few years.

The guy has flaws as a coach, the toughness of his teams (way too many effing layups allowed) and the use of his bench being a couple of them, but he puts this program in a different place then it was under any of his predecessors post 1960.

In my circle Peeks, I hear a lot of guys questioning Matta, more than I ever did for Tressel, but I think they also realize what he’s done for the program.

[neoleo]

And if I hear one more fucking reference to Anthony Davis being recruited by Cleveland State, I'm going to shoot myself in the face.

[peeker643]

But if you don't have the UNC & UK athletes then you need to do some coaching.

If you don't, coaching doesn't matter.

UK is irrelevant. I see zero banners in the rafters from the last decade.

Bump.

Congrats to you.

They trail another non-hoops school by one.

And regarding AD, wait til he grows into that frame. You'll see more Ewing than KG. I don't think he has the offensive upside of KG. To me he's offensively more like Camby. Going to be an interesting development though. I think he ultimately ends up far more powerful than Camby is.

I see your points. But I think it depends mostly on the kid's body type to be honest. Ewing was that thin and that wide in the shoulders as a freshman too. He wasn't coming off that kind of growth spurt though, as far as I know.

Look at this link and see the growth in the frame from '81-'85:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multim ... ent.2.html

[e0y2e3]

Thing is, the kid has handles and passing like KG already (from that whole PG his whole life thing).

That is where I see him staying more well rounded and becoming more of a perimeter four.

Either way, the kid has a higher ceiling than anyone that has come out since probably LBJ.

This is why I wanted Andy, Jamo and Sessions gone last summer.

[peeker643]

Thing is, the kid has handles and passing like KG already (from that whole PG his whole life thing).

That is where I see him staying more well rounded and becoming more of a perimeter four.

Either way, the kid has a higher ceiling than anyone that has come out since probably LBJ.

This is why I wanted Andy, Jamo and Sessions gone last summer.

Good point on the ball handling/passing. Where the guard play comes into even bigger focus is in his understanding and awareness of spacing and positioning. He's just got an advanced approach to the game.

Any way you slice it, kid is a monster. And regardless of how he fills in he's a stud which is great insurance for anyone taking him. Domonant four if he stays on slender side, equally talented five if he bulks up, grows another inch or two (which isn't outside realm of possibility).

[mattvan1]

Not lecturing anybody, Peeker. Used Lyles as an example of flat-out purchasing of player talent, that's all.

It wasn't me running down O'Brien...and I was just saying the "Tressel is God...Matta is God" stuff you attribute to OSU fans just isn't a universal thing. It's what you see and find amusing/interesting/appalling...but you paint with too broad a brush.

Nothing's universal. But it's far more prevalent than many are willing to admit. Rational people laugh at the irrationality. People you know, people I know.

For folks to say Matta is great and Matta inherited a train wreck just stinks of...well... not being true. No matter how you try and spin it.

Maybe he was the best X & O guy in New Orleans. Maybe he was a better recruiter than all but one of the guys down there. Makes it even more strange to me how the Buckeyes seem to fall flat under him. Last year, this year.... happens enough that it would get Earl Bruce let go

I used the words "train wreck". Two things I did not write
1. Matta is a great coach
2. O'Brien was not

So I guess I over used the words "trainwreck" when tOSU had to fire O'Brien, who then later sued the school and won, about the same time the NCAA put tOSU on probation for 3 years, made them pay back all of the 4 years of NCAA tournament money, and vacated 80 or so wins. Maybe not a trainwreck, but not sure how you could say O'Brien left the program in good shape - which has little or nothing to do with his coaching or recruiting acumen, BTW.

[peeker643]

Not lecturing anybody, Peeker. Used Lyles as an example of flat-out purchasing of player talent, that's all.

It wasn't me running down O'Brien...and I was just saying the "Tressel is God...Matta is God" stuff you attribute to OSU fans just isn't a universal thing. It's what you see and find amusing/interesting/appalling...but you paint with too broad a brush.

Nothing's universal. But it's far more prevalent than many are willing to admit. Rational people laugh at the irrationality. People you know, people I know.

For folks to say Matta is great and Matta inherited a train wreck just stinks of...well... not being true. No matter how you try and spin it.

Maybe he was the best X & O guy in New Orleans. Maybe he was a better recruiter than all but one of the guys down there. Makes it even more strange to me how the Buckeyes seem to fall flat under him. Last year, this year.... happens enough that it would get Earl Bruce let go

I used the words "train wreck". Two things I did not write
1. Matta is a great coach
2. O'Brien was not

So I guess I over used the words "trainwreck" when tOSU had to fire O'Brien, who then later sued the school and won, about the same time the NCAA put tOSU on probation for 3 years, made them pay back all of the 4 years of NCAA tournament money, and vacated 80 or so wins. Maybe not a trainwreck, but not sure how you could say O'Brien left the program in good shape - which has little or nothing to do with his coaching or recruiting acumen, BTW.

Nothing to do with the quality of the basketball team any more than Meyer walked into a program devastated by the previosu regime's messy exit.

That's all.

All I'm saying:

1. O'Brien elevated the program, he didn't destroy it or devalue it.
2. Matta is a terrifc recruiter and a 'meh' coach whose teams also lack toughness and, to a degree, character.
3. I don't know if Matta and his teams can win a title and I don't know if they can't.
4. I wonder why the majority of people don't discuss it like they do the football coach being able to win one.

[mattvan1]

Nothing to do with the quality of the basketball team any more than Meyer walked into a program devastated by the previosu regime's messy exit.

That's all.

All I'm saying:

1. O'Brien elevated the program, he didn't destroy it or devalue it.
2. Matta is a terrifc recruiter and a 'meh' coach whose teams also lack toughness and, to a degree, character.
3. I don't know if Matta and his teams can win a title and I don't know if they can't.
4. I wonder why the majority of people don't discuss it like they do the football coach being able to win one.

2-4 I agree 100%. As far as the first point, O'Brien elevated the program early on with Penn and Redd, but at the end his teams were .500 two years in a row. And all the crap that went along with his exit was far more damaging, I believe, that the current penalties for OSU football. The Tressel Bucks won a BCS bowl game. The O'Brien Bucks finished 9th in conference. As pointed out above, Matta came in and embraced the "one and done" "two and through" kids like Oden and Connelly, which, IMO, enabled the program to take the next step in national prominence. YMMV.

[e0y2e3]

Maybe I am crazy, but did O'Brien coach even a year or two with "one and done?"

I mean, let's not forget how new this rule is.

You guys are kind of making stuff up re: him and the rule, IMO.

[peeker643]

Maybe I am crazy, but did O'Brien coach even a year or two with "one and done?"

I mean, let's not forget how new this rule is.

You guys are kind of making stuff up re: him and the rule, IMO.

You should walk down the street and ask him. He's now at Emerson.

Not likely looking at the One & Done crowd there.

[e0y2e3]

I'm busy.

That said it should be acknowledged what a different basketball world Matta is operating in compared to O'Brien (especially when you are in an extremely meh basketball state like Ohio).

[mattvan1]

Maybe I am crazy, but did O'Brien coach even a year or two with "one and done?"

I mean, let's not forget how new this rule is.

You guys are kind of making stuff up re: him and the rule, IMO.

O'Brien did not. Matta got in right at the beginning - in fact Oden was a guy who was considering going straight to the NBA but ended up at OSU only after the rule was passed. So when you look at the respective histories - both guys benefitted from having an awesome class early in their tenure - O'Brien greatly helped himself by bringing Penn with him, and Matta benefitted greatly by the rule change.

Neither Peeker or I are making stuff up. We're having a good discussion and we don't need you to come barging in like CDT and ruin it for everyone.

And yes you are correct that 2A hoops is a completely different animal than it was even 7 years ago.

[neoleo]

Maybe I am crazy, but did O'Brien coach even a year or two with "one and done?"

I mean, let's not forget how new this rule is.

You guys are kind of making stuff up re: him and the rule, IMO.

You're right that the available amount of "one-and-done" talent has increased with the new rule, but it doesn't change the fact that O'Brien only went after 4-year guys. Even with all the top talent going straight to the NBA, plenty of guys were leaving college after 1-3 years back then, and O'Brien didn't want them. The biggest recruit he ever went after was Malik Hairston and he lost him to Oregon.

Some of his best recruits were Zach Williams and Brandon Fuss-Cheatham. If not for Redd already being there and Penn following him to Columbus, we'd remember the O'Brien era a bit differenly.

[e0y2e3]

I mean, dude, do you remember the high school rush to the NBA during O'Brien's era?

It was ridiculous. Dudes that couldn't dribble were coming out.

[neoleo]

I mean, dude, do you remember the high school rush to the NBA during O'Brien's era?

It was ridiculous. Dudes that couldn't dribble were coming out.

Unfortunately, I do. And I get it, that was part of why O'Brien stayed away from recruiting those guys, he didn't want to land a commitment and then get burned when they went straight to the NBA.

But other top programs were still bringing in better talent than OSU, and their guys were good enough to jump to the NBA after a couple of years in college. You can't tell me that every single college player was a four-year guy back then and that OSU's recruiting approach was equal to other top programs.

Maybe his recruiting approach would have changed with a one-and-done rule. I doubt it though because those guys would still need to be pampered, and it seemed that's what turned O'Brien off more than the threat of losing a commitment to the NBA.

[e0y2e3]

Watching college basketball then was like watching Butler or fucking Cleveland State.

Is was TERRIBLE.

Sure some coach's had a few guys, but the numbers were small, period.

[neoleo]

Watching college basketball then was like watching Butler or fucking Cleveland State.

Is was TERRIBLE.

Haha, good one.

Sure some coach's had a few guys, but the numbers were small, period.

I agree. Now, can you please answer this question. Did you agree with O'Brien's recruiting strategy? Would you have gone after higher rated players, whether they had a chance of skipping college or not, or would you have stuck with Zack Williams and Brandon Fuss-Cheatham as your meal tickets?

'Cause all I'm saying is Thad Matta put this program in a different place when it came to recruiting. The one-and-done rule helped a lot, but the basic overall approach of actually going after highly rated guys did too.

[e0y2e3]

And what highly rated Ohio guys did O'Brien miss?

BTW: Matta's recruiting is coming seriously into question now that he has nearly fully ditched the midwest and put all of his eggs in guys like Parker's basket. That is how you end up with no 2012 commits yet and one 2013.

Different strokes for different folk, I don't really give a fuck to split hairs but I'm not going to sit by and watch you guys compare two people's recruiting without discussing the reality of the situations.

[jb]

Watching college basketball then was like watching Butler or fucking Cleveland State.

Is was TERRIBLE.

Sure some coach's had a few guys, but the numbers were small, period.

You weren't down with Schoolie D Spoony G Penn?

[e0y2e3]

Ron Artest was my favorite player that year.

It started a long roller-coaster of a relationship.

[neoleo]

And what highly rated Ohio guys did O'Brien miss?

BTW: Matta's recruiting is coming seriously into question now that he has nearly fully ditched the midwest and put all of his eggs in guys like Parker's basket. That is how you end up with no 2012 commits yet and one 2013.

Different strokes for different folk, I don't really give a fuck to split hairs but I'm not going to sit by and watch you guys compare two people's recruiting without discussing the reality of the situations.

I don't really care either, I think we're both passers-by on this topic, but I'm not going to let you come in here and make it seem like the one-and-done routine is the only thing that separates Matta's recruiting from O'Brien's.

Off the top of my head, O'Brien missed nationally recruited Ohio guys in Chris Quinn, Drew Lavender, Jawad Williams and even Tony Stockman/JJ Sullinger originally. He also lost some highly rated Ohio guys to in-state schools, like Josh Duncan to Xavier.

Edit to add (after some quick research) that he also lost a pair of four-star recruits from Cincinnati, Robert Hite who started four years at Miami (FL) and Andrew Brackman to NC State (granted he wanted to play baseball too). And how could I forget Sam Clancy and Steve Logan?

Also, you can't refer to Ohio as a "meh" state for high school basketball, and then not factor in Matta's Indiana ties, which have been huge. O'Brien's ties were on the east coast and he was never going to get any top talent away from the Big East/ACC.

[e0y2e3]

Matta has quit recruiting Ohio and Indiana.

And I don't consider any of those guys elite, to each his own. CSU fans have different perspectives......

And sure he wasn't a great recruiter, but when your list of elite Ohio talent is that sack of shit I can't fault him for trying to build teams.

Because honestly, that right there is why college basketball was unwatchable for those years, that list is pond scum.

BTW: how much of that sack of shit did he avoid because he feared they would go pro after two years, seriously, because the pro talent on that list is like JAWAD WILLIAMS, who shouldn't have even got a shot and let's not forget, your thesis is he tried to project who would go pro and avoided them, which is silly. Guy had his style and picked his style of players, but this elite talent argument is freaking stupid.

[neoleo]

I love how you always add caveats to arguments after the fact. You asked and I answered.

And you still haven't answered the question I asked you.

your thesis is he tried to project who would go pro and avoided them

Never said that. My argument is that Matta is a better recruiter than O'Brien and he put OSU on a national level. Every other argument supports that statement. And I said that part of O'Brien's problem was that he was afraid of landing a commitment from a guy and then having him go straight to the NBA instead.

Also, every guy I listed was a 4 star recruit from Ohio, no better than Lighty, Deibler, Lauderdale, etc. that Matta has brought in. In O'Brien's era, maybe Sullinger, Koufos, Mullens, Buford and Cook (all 5 stars) go straight to the NBA, but either way O'Brien misses on the ones who don't and on most of the 4 star guys.

And in Indiana, Oden was a definite NBA guy under the old rules, but Conley and Thomas were not. And that's just two states. Look at how many McDonald's AA's Matta has brought in. Take a look at the lists of McDonald's AA's from O'Brien's era and see how many of them actually went straight to the NBA. I have news for you, O'Brien had plenty of talent to chose from, and whether it was by choice or by lack of recruiting ability, he failed to bring it to OSU.

[e0y2e3]

Yes Thad Matta is a better recruiter than O'Brien.

For fuck's sake.

That isn't my point, but you win whatever in the fuck it is you are arguing, GAWD DAMN YOU O'BRIEN FOR NOT GOING AFTER JAWAD WILLIAMS

[OldDawg]

Eye, I guess I am not seeing your "not recruiting Ohio."
You mean he just flat out stopped, like right now. I mean 4 sophomores are from OH. That's not that long ago to make it empirical evidence that he's not recruiting Ohio.

OHIO PLAYERS (6) STARTERS (3)
Jared Sullinger SO Columbus, Ohio (Northland)
William Buford Sr Toledo, Ohio (Libbey)
Aaron Craft SO Findlay, Ohio (Liberty Benton)
Alex Rogers JR Cincinnati, Ohio (Christian Brothers Univ.)
Jordan Sibert SO Cinncinati, Ohio (Princeton)
J.D. Weatherspoon SO Columbus, Ohio (Northland)

NON-OHIO PLAYERS (8) STARTERS (2)
Trey McDonald FR Battle Creek, Mich. (Battle Creek Central)
Evan Ravenel JR Tampa, Fla. (Brandon)
LaQuinton Ross FR Jackson, Miss. (Life Center Academy (N.J.))
Shannon Scott FR Alpharetta, Ga. (Milton)
Lenzelle Smith, SO Zion, Ill (Zion-Benton)
Deshaun Thomas SO Ft. Wayne, Ind (Bishop Luers)
Sam Thompson FR Chicago, Ill. (Whitney Young)
Amir Williams FR Birmingham, Mich. (Detroit Country Day)

ALUMS:
Lighty
Diebler
Lauderdale
Eddie Davis
Koufos
B J Mullens

[e0y2e3]

A year and a half to two years ago (Love the 2013 recruit was already committed) the staff completely changed course, that is why this year they are kinda fucked with only one potential prospect they are at least a coin flip with that is truly elite and a SG from AZ potentially in the fold.

I mean they have no 2012 committs yet.

They used to recruit the midwest hard, but they have gone pure national stud now and it is kinda biting him in the ass with this 2012 class, he is lucky he has all the young talent he has.

[pup]

A year and a half to two years ago (Love the 2013 recruit was already committed) the staff completely changed course, that is why this year they are kinda fucked with only one potential prospect they are at least a coin flip with that is truly elite and a SG from AZ potentially in the fold.

I mean they have no 2012 committs yet.

They used to recruit the midwest hard, but they have gone pure national stud now and it is kinda biting him in the ass with this 2012 class, he is lucky he has all the young talent he has.

Or since he has all the young talent he has, he made the decision to go hard after some national studs?

[neoleo]

A year and a half to two years ago (Love the 2013 recruit was already committed) the staff completely changed course, that is why this year they are kinda fucked with only one potential prospect they are at least a coin flip with that is truly elite and a SG from AZ potentially in the fold.

I mean they have no 2012 committs yet.

They used to recruit the midwest hard, but they have gone pure national stud now and it is kinda biting him in the ass with this 2012 class, he is lucky he has all the young talent he has.

Or since he has all the young talent he has, he made the decision to go hard after some national studs?

And because the 2012 Ohio class sucked balls? And only one player in 2013 separated himself from the rest of the pack, which is why he's been locked up for so long?

[e0y2e3]

And if he ends up with no one this year and DT and Sully leaving have fun watching this front court.

And he ditched the entire Midwest, not just Ohio.

[danwismar]

One senior on his entire roster....it's not like he could have loaded up on 2012 recruits. Let's not make it sound like he hasn't given the situation any thought, and got caught with no incoming talent.

[e0y2e3]

If he loses out on Parker he is in trouble next year, period if DT and Sully leave.

He's reaching for the stars with Parker and put all of his eggs in his basket, let's not pretend like he isn't and he lost a bunch of guards in the midwest that were talented and had to turn to this Italian in Arizona that isn't highly rated late.

I'm not saying this new attitude will fail, but it's off to a slightly rough start.

[neoleo]

GAWD DAMN YOU O'BRIEN FOR NOT GOING AFTER JAWAD WILLIAMS

As much as I enjoy watching you get bent out of shape, I do have a problem with this. You asked me the question. I never mentioned Jawad Williams until you asked me to name names.

Your point was that recruiting is different now than it was when O'Brien was here because of the new NBA rules. Nobody is arguing with you about that because you're right.

My point is that even under the old rules, O'Brien recruited subpar talent when compared to other national programs, so the rule change isn't the only difference when comparing Matta to O'Brien.

Now you can get back to your same old tired bullshit by twisting people's words to make yourself feel better.

[e0y2e3]

Jawad Williams for LIFE

[OldDawg]

TBH, I was unimpressed with Jawad in HS. In HS, I thought he was talented. I thought he was unmotivated, lazy, and soft in that even though he was almost always the best athlete on the floor, he never seemed to mix it up or dominate a game. He stayed off the boards and floated around the perimeter. When he committed to UNC, I was shocked and thought he'd never make it. I am impressed that he did turn things around.

Or maybe I just saw him on off nights when he was in HS.

I was always mad tOSU didn't get Raymar Morgan from McKinley, who ended up going to Mich St.

[furls]

Until Sullinger announced Matta only had one available 2012 schollie left. Can't fault the guy for not oversigning. What if Sully tears his ACL and comes back? Who figured Thomas would legitimately be considering the NBA this year? Sibert and 'Spoon could be gone this year too.... that would leave Matta fucked, but there really is not much he could do about it.

[e0y2e3]

Sure, always make sense to put all your eggs in the basket of an Atlanta big that you have about a 33% shot at. I mean, HELL, might as well miss out on him and have one of the worst front courts in the league next year!! Why not!!!