Ubaldo suspended

[gotribe31]

5 games, plus a fine. In a game where he wasn't even ejected.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Good.

He's an emo asshole crybaby with no stuff.

You're throwing the ball at the wrong guy, pussy.

Shoulda hit the GM.

[leadpipe]

Hopefully he's suspended until he can get out of the low nineties.

[Bigfist]

Warranted. I have no doubt it was intentional, having watched the tape. Surprised that he wasn't ejected.

[skatingtripods]

I'm just disappointed that he didn't fire one into the Rockies dugout at Jim Tracy's head for making him go out and pitch on the night he was traded last year.

[peeker643]

I'm just disappointed that he didn't fire one into the Rockies dugout at Jim Tracy's head for making him go out and pitch on the night he was traded last year.

Good chance Tracy would kick the living shit out of him.

Deservedly too. Chicken shit move.

Just happy Ubaldo hit what he was aiming at and throwing hard enough that Tulo noticed.

Good sign.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Yeah what a horrible thing to do, making him do his job and all. It's terrible. I mean the guy busts his ass those 6 whole days a month he has to work. I know it's horrible that Tracy didn't pull him, pat him on that back, and cup his tiny balls.

[peeker643]

I'm with CDT here.

Trade hadn't gone through, maybe it doesn't ever go through, no love for Ubaldo anyway, who gives a fuck? Only thing bad that happens there is happening to the Rockies.

And look, it sure seems like the Indians were sold a bill of good s on the guy anyway. And it wasn't cuz he pitched the night he was dealt. There was something effed up with him before that night.

[Adverb Harry]

So, we didn't trade for a guy with f'ed up mechanics and diminishing speed, we traded for an absolute headcase with f'ed up mechanics and diminishing speed. Great.

Don't get me wrong...it's nice to see the guy actually showing some emotion and anger out there. (That would have been great to see in one of the many outings he took a giant dump on the mound for us, particularly in games against the Tigers, the team he was brought in to close the gap on.)

No, nothing wrong with a little bit of aggression and anger. However, it's totally misplaced. Rather than protecting our players or sending a message for our team, he takes out his frustration on a personal matter that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Cleveland Indians or the 2012 season. We're damned lucky he didn't fracture Tulo's elbow. We're even damn luckier the Rockies didn't hurt one of our players in retaliation. His little personal vendetta could have easily cost this team more than just Ubaldo himself getting a suspension. That's one of many reasons I don't appreciate him pulling this little stunt. He sucked the whole team into his little Ubaldo vortex, and for what? So he could look like even more of an embarassment? 'Cause he's getting attention right now for all the wrong reasons.

One of my biggest questions from day one of the trade was why the Rockies were so willing to trade (and apparently actively shopping) a supposed "ace" with over three years left on a very team friendly contract, playing for a good team having a bad year with some pretty special players (CarGo and, yes, Tulo). Teams build around aces, and when you control said ace for such a long time, you don't trade them years before that contract is over unless there is a perceived problem. And now, I think we're seeing exactly what the problem is. Putting yourself before the team is bad enough, but when you don't have the results to back it up (as in, the last year and a half of Jimenez's performance), well, teams won't put up with you for long. It's becoming pretty clear that the Rockies were not only dissatisfied and concerned with his mechanics, but his ego, as well. I've seen nothing since he arrived to change that perception, and spring training (and this incident) make me believe that even more. (When his "best" spring training performance is a five-inning, 90 pitch outing, that's not a good sign.)

Now, that all being said, we're stuck with this guy going forward. He's an Indian and I'll root for him to win every time out. Of course I will. I'm hoping he pulls his head out of his ass and pitches us to the post-season, winning a Cy Young or two while he's at it. We all want that. I'm just becoming increasingly sceptical of anything remotely close to those outcomes.

[justmebd]

I didn't want to criticize the trade last year because we always criticize the front office for never pulling the trigger on the "big deal."

That being said, I had a bad feeling about this trade from the moment it was announced, and my bad feelings are just getting worse.

This guy HAS to get his head out of his ass, or this front office will go down as having made one of the worst trades in the history of the franchise, especially if the Rockies start winning playoff games with our guys.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Was what MPH was his fastball hitting during his all star year?

[skatingtripods]

Was what MPH was his fastball hitting during his all star year?

96.1 mph in 2009 and 2010.

93.5 mph in 2011.

Slider was 3 mph slower as well. (86.6 to 83.4)

All according to Fangraphs.

[peeker643]

Was what MPH was his fastball hitting during his all star year?

97-100mph

Nasty shit. No time to think and guys swung at a shit load of pitches that were unhittably out of the zone.

[e0y2e3]

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/a ... e_27758774

[ChoccoIndians]

I am really worried about Ubaldo, I know you shouldn't worry about Spring form, but he has shown nothing since being traded to the Tribe. Yesterday seemed to be him reaching boiling point, hopefully it is a turning point.

[gotribe31]

Velocity doesn't mean nearly as much to me as stuff. The reason he was so unhittable that year wasn't that he was throwing 2 lousy MPH harder, it was because his 2-seamer had late, nasty movement. He starter throwing more 4-seamers last year, and the pitch is much straighter and easier to hit.

He (and everyone else) needs to ignore the damn radar gun and focus on making the right pitch to the right spot, regardless of how fast it is. If you're going to look at PitchFX, use the horizontal movement decrease as the reason for his ineffectiveness, not the velocity decrease.

[pup]

Velocity doesn't mean nearly as much to me as stuff. The reason he was so unhittable that year wasn't that he was throwing 2 lousy MPH harder, it was because his 2-seamer had late, nasty movement. He starter throwing more 4-seamers last year, and the pitch is much straighter and easier to hit.

He (and everyone else) needs to ignore the damn radar gun and focus on making the right pitch to the right spot, regardless of how fast it is. If you're going to look at PitchFX, use the horizontal movement decrease as the reason for his ineffectiveness, not the velocity decrease.

I'll go part way with that.

To me the concerning part is his MPH is lower and it seems like he is throwing more 4 seamers which should bump it 1-2. So are we really seeing a 4ish MPH drop? I know they are ML hitters and can adjust, but you simply cannot say 4 MPH is insignificant.

[leadpipe]

Velocity doesn't mean nearly as much to me as stuff. The reason he was so unhittable that year wasn't that he was throwing 2 lousy MPH harder, it was because his 2-seamer had late, nasty movement. He starter throwing more 4-seamers last year, and the pitch is much straighter and easier to hit.

He (and everyone else) needs to ignore the damn radar gun and focus on making the right pitch to the right spot, regardless of how fast it is. If you're going to look at PitchFX, use the horizontal movement decrease as the reason for his ineffectiveness, not the velocity decrease.

What made him dominant was 96-97 with movement.

Same movement at 91-92, with his typical command, and you've got Fausto Carmona of the last several years.

Not sure what pitcher you've watched over the last several years, but if he could hit his spot every time he'd be among the best ever.

The whole deal with him is at 97, hitters are swinging at balls, at 91 they are not.

Ignore the radar if you like, but I'll bet anything I have, if he's living at 92 he's gonna be pretty bad, and if he gets back to 97, he's gonna be good. The guy's never hammered the black in his career - he has hit 97. Which do you think is more likely to occur?

And by the way, you can ignore the gun. I you can show evidence of a better indicator - getting people out. Considering Ubaldo got people out at 97, and didn't at 92, well, that makes it a pretty relevant variable.

[peeker643]

Meh... ok...forget 97. The velocity isn't important.

Let him just develop Tomlin-like control and pitch selection at 92. Shouldn't take him long at all.

Maybe just blow by Tomlin and go with Maddux-like precision. He'll be fine then at 91-92.

Justify all day boys, but it looks like one front office got played like a guitar in this deal. And it wasn't Dan O'Dowd's.

[gotribe31]

In 2009 his FB avg was 96.0. In 2011 it was 93.9.

In 2009 his FB horizontal movement averaged 6.6. In 2011 it was 4.5.

If you want to argue that it was the 2.1 MPH that made the difference, fine. But stop throwing around numbers like "97 to 91," because that isn't what we're talking about. Personally, I'd rather see the movement go back up to what it was than the velocity. He can be an effective pitcher with good movement and a velo drop. He cannot be an effective pitcher with better velo and no movement. ML hitters are not shitting themselves with fear over a straight as an arrow 96 MPH fastball.

I don't think any of us know what is actually wrong with him, whether it is purely physical, mental, or a combination of both. We can all agree that he's not the same pitcher he was in the first half of 2010. Pup, I agree that the velo drop has caused him to throw more 4-seamers which in turn makes his fastball move less. I'm just saying that if his velo is down anyway, he might as well keep throwing his 2-seamer because he clearly isn't blowing the 4-seamer by everyone.

[andrew6586]

Ubaldo deserved it. He's a punk who needs to be controlled. Jim Tracy is a dick too.

[pup]

In 2009 his FB avg was 96.0. In 2011 it was 93.9.

In 2009 his FB horizontal movement averaged 6.6. In 2011 it was 4.5.

If you want to argue that it was the 2.1 MPH that made the difference, fine. But stop throwing around numbers like "97 to 91," because that isn't what we're talking about. Personally, I'd rather see the movement go back up to what it was than the velocity. He can be an effective pitcher with good movement and a velo drop. He cannot be an effective pitcher with better velo and no movement. ML hitters are not shitting themselves with fear over a straight as an arrow 96 MPH fastball.

I don't think any of us know what is actually wrong with him, whether it is purely physical, mental, or a combination of both. We can all agree that he's not the same pitcher he was in the first half of 2010. Pup, I agree that the velo drop has caused him to throw more 4-seamers which in turn makes his fastball move less. I'm just saying that if his velo is down anyway, he might as well keep throwing his 2-seamer because he clearly isn't blowing the 4-seamer by everyone.

But a 2 seamer at 91? I believe ML hitters can detect and lay off.
A 2 seamer at 93? It makes a difference. And since a higher % of his pitches were 2 seamers you can make the case the 2 seamer could have been 94. Maybe even 95.

I think we all agree, 4 seamer is not a ML plus pitch. Probably not even at 97 because it is so straight. But his 2 seamer at 95 is. At 91 he is Fausto.

[skatingtripods]

Justify all day boys, but it looks like one front office got played like a guitar in this deal. And it wasn't Dan O'Dowd's.

Ridiculous to say that after less than half a season and one Spring Training.

Alex White's already been shunned to the bullpen and got lit up like Clark Griswold's house during his couple months in Colorado last year.

Pomeranz made the rotation, but he's still a question mark at the big league level. Still lacks a third pitch. Not many starters make a living off two pitches.


I'm willing to give Jimenez some time. He got hurt last Spring and it affected him all year. How do we know that he's not just holding back? I'll ignore the shit with Colorado. It got overblown based on comments that both guys made and Ubaldo hit Tulo. Whatever. It's not like we face them this season.

Does it show some immaturity and selfishness? It does. But, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a few months. It's unfair to judge him after two months and a Spring Training. Pretty big life change leaving the Rockies org. New team, injuries, trying too hard to perform at his 2010 level and putting pressure on himself. He clearly doesn't handle his emotions well.

April's big. If he starts well, he could be a very good #2. If he doesn't, the snowball could keep rolling.

But it's really impossible to call this trade a win for Colorado until White and Pomeranz actually do something other than being highly touted names.

[Adverb Harry]

One of my other biggest objections to the trade all along has been--regardless of how Pomeranz and White develop, and, by the way, White's performance in Colorado last year could probably be attributed to being rushed back from his finger injury, and Pomeranz right now would have to be able to at least equal Ubaldo's pathetic numbers--those two were our two most valuable assets in the trade market. Now, I'm not so sure I would have traded them, or at least, I wouldn't have for Ubaldo. But, if you're going to trade your top two pitching prospects--and the first homegrown ones since CC--you have to trade them for the right guy, because there's no getting those chips back. If Ubaldo was pitching anywhere close to his first half of 2010 form, I'd have made that trade in a heartbeat. (Of course, then Colorado probably wouldn't have, but that isn't the point.)

However, Ubaldo wasn't pitching well--not for over a year. That's way enough of a sample size to have given the Tribe concern and wonder if he was worth our top two prospects, extremely valuable commodities on the trade market. However, it doesn't matter what they become--they could both get run over by the team bus tomorrow--that will not change the value they had last year at the trading deadline, value that is now gone. Gambling them away on a downward-trending head case was not a good investment. An impact bat (how nice would that be?) or another top arm who didn't come with so many question marks would have been much wiser.

Again, I'm hoping and rooting for this guy to turn it around. He has to, or we're screwed. There's still lots of time for him to improve, and I'm hoping the coaches and other front office guys figure out the secret. But geez...it wasn't a smart move at all. When you go all in on a guy, you have to be dead certain he's THE guy, and there's no way they could have been sure he was anything more than an expensive reclamation project. (And if they didn't see him that way, there's really a problem in the front office.)

Bottom line...I'd be way more optimistic about our chances right now if we still had control over our two most valuable trade chips.

[Bigfist]

I agree a lot with what Adverb Harry says. In addition, I recall very clearly when the trade was made, it basically announced (I think Wisconsin Tribe Fan can confirm this), that we were opening up our window of opportunity through the 2013 season. That is how long we would he, Choo, and Acab under control (of course, ACab will be with us longer now).

The lack of going out and getting a real bat (and I am not saying Antonetti didn't try, but still, one was not obtained) has me quite concerned about the coming year. I hope the optimists are right, as I really do want Indian baseball to be fun again, circa 2005 and 2007. But I have a very gloomy feeling about this year. They have sucked all spring, and only Gomez has pitched consistently well as a starter. If one listened to Pluto today, you can tell he is as concerned as I am.

[skatingtripods]

However, Ubaldo wasn't pitching well--not for over a year. That's way enough of a sample size to have given the Tribe concern and wonder if he was worth our top two prospects, extremely valuable commodities on the trade market. However, it doesn't matter what they become--they could both get run over by the team bus tomorrow--that will not change the value they had last year at the trading deadline, value that is now gone. Gambling them away on a downward-trending head case was not a good investment. An impact bat (how nice would that be?) or another top arm who didn't come with so many question marks would have been much wiser.

Everything surrounding the trade is still strange. Obviously, Ubaldo was unhappy. Even if Colorado felt that he had a high likelihood of returning to the pitcher he was in the first half of 2010, he was becoming a locker room cancer. We know that now. So, maybe Colorado didn't necessarily sell on him due to regression or concerns on his struggles. It's possible that they just wanted to get rid of him before he really became a clubhouse problem. It could just be a problem exclusive to Colorado based on the Tulo/CarGo extensions and not something that carries over to Cleveland. He settled it in his own way last start, but we haven't heard anything about him being a douche in our clubhouse.

(One interesting tangent of note, Ubaldo posted several offseason pics of him and Carlos Santana. First one, besides Marson, to enter the fray on Saturday with the Tulo incident was Carlos Santana. For Santana, a guy who doesn't seem to give a shit very often, it was fairly telling to me. Maybe it's just me.)

Then, there's the fact that Colorado initially refused to let us do a physical on Ubaldo before the trade was completed. They knew he wasn't healthy. Shows me that they were doing anything they could to get rid of him and, as I just said, I don't think that's entirely performance-based.

It's why I'll give him a pass for the two months of 2011 with us. If he did in fact have a hip flexor in his right (push-off) leg, and I've tried to play hockey with those, there's just no explosion in that leg. That would undoubtedly hamper velocity. And, again, I'm hoping (assuming) that Ubaldo's taking it easy with the velo this Spring to avoid getting hurt again, especially after he saw what happened to Chris Perez. You know that served as a bit of a wakeup call to some guys. Perez got really lucky that it wasn't worse.

Again, I'm hoping and rooting for this guy to turn it around. He has to, or we're screwed. There's still lots of time for him to improve, and I'm hoping the coaches and other front office guys figure out the secret. But geez...it wasn't a smart move at all. When you go all in on a guy, you have to be dead certain he's THE guy, and there's no way they could have been sure he was anything more than an expensive reclamation project. (And if they didn't see him that way, there's really a problem in the front office.)

If he pitches healthy and throws up a 4.95, then yes, he's a reclamation project. For now, he's a guy who pitched hurt and never got shut down. None of us truly know the extent of his injuries last season. And we never will. We'll just continue to go in circles about it until he pitches well or pitches awful in 2012.


IMO, fact of all of this is that Spring Training is just too damn long and gives us too much time to look at everything under a microscope. For me, Ubaldo starts fresh on Saturday (if he makes the start). That's when I start to evaluate him and the trade from last July. It's a clean slate. Clearly, I'm in the minority with that line of thinking.

[peeker643]

Justify all day boys, but it looks like one front office got played like a guitar in this deal. And it wasn't Dan O'Dowd's.

Ridiculous to say that after less than half a season and one Spring Training.

Alex White's already been shunned to the bullpen and got lit up like Clark Griswold's house during his couple months in Colorado last year.

Pomeranz made the rotation, but he's still a question mark at the big league level. Still lacks a third pitch. Not many starters make a living off two pitches.


I'm willing to give Jimenez some time. He got hurt last Spring and it affected him all year. How do we know that he's not just holding back? I'll ignore the shit with Colorado. It got overblown based on comments that both guys made and Ubaldo hit Tulo. Whatever. It's not like we face them this season.

Does it show some immaturity and selfishness? It does. But, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a few months. It's unfair to judge him after two months and a Spring Training. Pretty big life change leaving the Rockies org. New team, injuries, trying too hard to perform at his 2010 level and putting pressure on himself. He clearly doesn't handle his emotions well.

April's big. If he starts well, he could be a very good #2. If he doesn't, the snowball could keep rolling.

But it's really impossible to call this trade a win for Colorado until White and Pomeranz actually do something other than being highly touted names.

Like I said, justify it how you want to. You don't trade the top 2 prospects in your organization for a guy who's either not healthy or may not be healthy or who you think might get healthy some point down the road.

You can tear the prospects down and minimize what they are and/or may be. That's fine. I love that game. But you don't deal them for a broke-dick. Not if he's a broke dick then and may be later.

And by all accounts that's what he was/is.

Hopefully the 'will be' is still up in the air.

To say he wasn't and/or isn't currently unhealthy is not being truthful in this most optimistic time of the year.

Let's hope he rebounds. Because if he is healthy they are fucked nine ways to Sunday.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

You know it's bad when you hope the prospects you sent fail so you're team's management doesn't look inept.

And that's how it's looks right now, like they fell in love with Ubaldo despite serious question marks and made the deal anyway.

[motherscratcher]

http://www.fanfeedr.com/mlb/cleveland-indians?id=caf58d62-05f5-513c-b715-4ad3cd45d99f

[Bigfist]

Obviously, Tracy's comments were ridiculous..there have been far worse intentional beanings in the history of baseball. But just as ridiculous were Jimenez's comments that the beaning was unintentional. I believe the suspension of five games is appropriate and neither too harsh nor too light.

[pup]

Obviously, Tracy's comments were ridiculous..there have been far worse intentional beanings in the history of baseball. But just as ridiculous were Jimenez's comments that the beaning was unintentional. I believe the suspension of five games is appropriate and neither too harsh nor too light.

Not a whole lot of heaters at the elbows during Cactus League play.

[Dnthateonthepronk]

Hopefully he's suspended until he can get out of the low nineties.

But then we will never see him again

[Kingpin74]

Justify all day boys, but it looks like one front office got played like a guitar in this deal. And it wasn't Dan O'Dowd's.

Ridiculous to say that after less than half a season and one Spring Training.

Alex White's already been shunned to the bullpen and got lit up like Clark Griswold's house during his couple months in Colorado last year.

Pomeranz made the rotation, but he's still a question mark at the big league level. Still lacks a third pitch. Not many starters make a living off two pitches.


I'm willing to give Jimenez some time. He got hurt last Spring and it affected him all year. How do we know that he's not just holding back? I'll ignore the shit with Colorado. It got overblown based on comments that both guys made and Ubaldo hit Tulo. Whatever. It's not like we face them this season.

Does it show some immaturity and selfishness? It does. But, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a few months. It's unfair to judge him after two months and a Spring Training. Pretty big life change leaving the Rockies org. New team, injuries, trying too hard to perform at his 2010 level and putting pressure on himself. He clearly doesn't handle his emotions well.

April's big. If he starts well, he could be a very good #2. If he doesn't, the snowball could keep rolling.

But it's really impossible to call this trade a win for Colorado until White and Pomeranz actually do something other than being highly touted names.

White and Pomeranz may not pan out but I think it needs to be judged by what their value was last year. Couldn't we have acquired a Gio Gonzalez type in the offseason if we dangled those two? I'd much rather have him than Ubaldo at this point, and I think he's under club control for longer. After seeing what we got in return for Cliff Lee, I have to think that we could have had a Rolls Royce starting pitcher if we were patient enough, not one with giant question marks from the get go. I know the Ubaldo deal had some buzz and was instant gratification, but we were already fading and very injured in last year's pennant race when the deal was made.

[skatingtripods]

White and Pomeranz may not pan out but I think it needs to be judged by what their value was last year. Couldn't we have acquired a Gio Gonzalez type in the offseason if we dangled those two? I'd much rather have him than Ubaldo at this point, and I think he's under club control for longer. After seeing what we got in return for Cliff Lee, I have to think that we could have had a Rolls Royce starting pitcher if we were patient enough, not one with giant question marks from the get go. I know the Ubaldo deal had some buzz and was instant gratification, but we were already fading and very injured in last year's pennant race when the deal was made.

No, we wouldn't have gotten Gio for those two, I don't think. The Nats package of players, IIRC, was viewed as an overpayment.

You're talking about the same Gio Gonzalez with a 4.32 lifetime ERA outside of the friendly confines of Oakland, right? That includes a 3.48 at Safeco. So that tells you that he's incredibly average outside those two great pitcher's parks in OAK and SEA.

I like Gio and I thought that exact same thing when he got traded to the Nats. Then I looked deeper at the numbers and saw why. Not to say he's not a good pitcher, but there are reasons why Beane would move him.

Also, not to say it couldn't change, but lifetime ERA v. AL Central opponents of the Tribe: 5.33 v. DET, 6.44 v. KC, 5.86 v. CWS, 7.80 v. MIN. It's only us that he's lights out against.

I don't lose sleep over not waiting on Gio and instead ending up with Ubaldo.