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Big Dance - 2012

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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:25 pm

peeker643 wrote:His kids are soft. That's on Matta. Either because he doesn't demand them not to be or because he recruits soft kids or because he demands them to be and they don't. Any way you look at it that's on him.

I think he wants to be considered a "players' coach." Whatever that means. If you look back at the past 6 yrs or so, he has recruited a lot of one-and-doners. In Matta's mind, I suppose, you have to coddle those guys and give them their offensive freedom. In his mind, I suppose, he believes a hard-line, driving coach can't recruit one-and-done athletes, because they just don't want to play for that kind of coach. They want to play for someone just like their AAU coach. I am not saying that excuses his allowance of soft basketball behavior. I think his coaching style (also a byproduct of this post) is a lack of accountability on the players' behalf. Poor shot selection. Lack of defensive consistency.

I've seen more than a couple coaches sell their coaching souls for a little better talent.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:33 pm

peeker643 wrote:OD- I appreciate your view on the game and the players and all of that. But I just don't understand why people continue to bring up Barkley and Willis Reed (different game, different era, BTW) when talking about undersized, non athletic guys who were dominant in the league.


I agree with you there. My point is, I think the Barkley, Reed role is the only chance he has to be a good NBA player. At present, he doesn't have the motor to do that. But it is within his skill set. If you put Aaron Craft's tenacity in Sulley, he'd have a chance.

He is not athletic enough to be your typical NBA 4-man.

He will never be skilled enough to be Kevin Love. Ever.

And you are also right about the different era. The NBA itself wasn't nearly as athletic in the Reed era. And not quite as athletic in the Barkley era as well.

Barkley just had a mean streak in him that made him a tough SOB. Sulley will never have that kind of attitude.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:06 pm

Saying because he walks in the shadow of Big Brother Football down there he sure seems to get much more of a pass than Tressel did o that Meyer will.


You couldn't possibly be more wrong about that, homes.

He's taken more heat from fans and media the last 3 tourney flops than Tress took in his whole run at OSU. People expected more out of him after getting thumped by Florida and him bringing in great recruits by the handful year after year.

My beef with Thad is that he seems to ignore depth, despite having the talent to be one of the deeper teams in the country. Why you would choose to bury guys like Amir Williams is something I will never get. The guys aren't going to get better playing garbage minutes vs Texas State Of The Pan Handle Region.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:09 pm

OldDawg wrote:
peeker643 wrote:His kids are soft. That's on Matta. Either because he doesn't demand them not to be or because he recruits soft kids or because he demands them to be and they don't. Any way you look at it that's on him.

I think he wants to be considered a "players' coach." Whatever that means. If you look back at the past 6 yrs or so, he has recruited a lot of one-and-doners. In Matta's mind, I suppose, you have to coddle those guys and give them their offensive freedom. In his mind, I suppose, he believes a hard-line, driving coach can't recruit one-and-done athletes, because they just don't want to play for that kind of coach. They want to play for someone just like their AAU coach. I am not saying that excuses his allowance of soft basketball behavior. I think his coaching style (also a byproduct of this post) is a lack of accountability on the players' behalf. Poor shot selection. Lack of defensive consistency.

I've seen more than a couple coaches sell their coaching souls for a little better talent.


No doubt you have. I readily believe that.

As an aside, and whatever your feelings may be in regard to the man and his coaching tactics, I have never in my life heard a coach get into his players like Calipari does. Right or wrong, I sat in Centennial Hall last season when UK played ND and listened to him verbally assault guys like Terrence Jones and Brandon Knight for the better part of two hours. Literally screaming, gesturing, ranting, raving, throwing his clipboard on the floor in disgust during the first half of a game where the little Hansbrough had about 19 and ND was up by ten at half. ND scored 14 in the second half, Hansbrough had two and UK won by about 20.

And it seems kids actually like playing for the man. I think you can demand accountability and results without smothering kids. Just not sure if Matta does that.

I honestly don't know. Maybe he is a taskmaster and disciplinarian of Bob Knight levels. But it sure doesn't translate to the floor during games.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:13 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Saying because he walks in the shadow of Big Brother Football down there he sure seems to get much more of a pass than Tressel did o that Meyer will.


You couldn't possibly be more wrong about that, homes.

He's taken more heat from fans and media the last 3 tourney flops than Tress took in his whole run at OSU. People expected more out of him after getting thumped by Florida and him bringing in great recruits by the handful year after year.

My beef with Thad is that he seems to ignore depth, despite having the talent to be one of the deeper teams in the country. Why you would choose to bury guys like Amir Williams is something I will never get. The guys aren't going to get better playing garbage minutes vs Texas State Of The Pan Handle Region.


Don't see it up here at all. I mean, he's rarely in the news here much less a focal point. He's just kind of there on game days, chomping the gum, dealing with his issues, etc.

Maybe it's tougher on him there. But up here, regionally and nationally? He gets a much easier walk than Tressel ever did. I never hear Matta discussed, criticized, defended, nothing.

Appreciate the input on down there though. I guess I can see how it probably is for anyone in that specific crucible.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:35 pm

<----- Still walking around just saying "fuck!" every half hour almost 24 hours later.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:44 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Saying because he walks in the shadow of Big Brother Football down there he sure seems to get much more of a pass than Tressel did o that Meyer will.


You couldn't possibly be more wrong about that, homes.

He's taken more heat from fans and media the last 3 tourney flops than Tress took in his whole run at OSU. People expected more out of him after getting thumped by Florida and him bringing in great recruits by the handful year after year.

My beef with Thad is that he seems to ignore depth, despite having the talent to be one of the deeper teams in the country. Why you would choose to bury guys like Amir Williams is something I will never get. The guys aren't going to get better playing garbage minutes vs Texas State Of The Pan Handle Region.


Don't see it up here at all. I mean, he's rarely in the news here much less a focal point. He's just kind of there on game days, chomping the gum, dealing with his issues, etc.

Maybe it's tougher on him there. But up here, regionally and nationally? He gets a much easier walk than Tressel ever did. I never hear Matta discussed, criticized, defended, nothing.

Appreciate the input on down there though. I guess I can see how it probably is for anyone in that specific crucible.



When you said "down there" I assumed you meant the pressure from local fan and media types.

I think people overplay the pressure Tress was under. There was every indication he was going to be our Joe Paterno. But then he fucked up. Sure we all want to win the Title every year, and there were some jackasses who expected that and considered it a failure if they didn't. But we had a coach who could recruit, who would have his teams in the title picture year in year out, and who pounded Michigan like a $2 whore.

That's job security in Columbus.

Sure we all broke his balls about his "golly gee ah shucks" Beaver Cleaver speaking style and his hermit crab offense. But his job was never in danger and he was never really on the hot seat.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:44 pm

I agree with peeker, I rarely ever hear Matta's name for any reason, good or bad.

At least good to know he does get deserved or constructive criticism near campus.
Last edited by FUDU on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:47 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
OldDawg wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Thomas and Sully really should come back, they can and need to get better.

They won't though, money talks.


Sully is what he is. He isn't getting any better. He has pretty well maxed out the abilities he has. The only thing he can do is extend his shooting range.

Thomas would benefit from another year in college. He is very raw.


He can get better down low. If he stays, I think he will.



He's Dan Fortson.

An overrated player from HS with good low post moves, a killer drop step, an insufficient athleticism.

Lee has this one to hold over us for life. He nailed it.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:48 pm

jb wrote:<----- Still walking around just saying "fuck!" every half hour almost 24 hours later.


Why?
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:49 pm

Motta is NOT the problem.

Do any of you think Calipari actually coaches that all star team?

He buys them an they go pro in a year. UK has been dirty forever.

Motta is great. Final 4 appearances do not suck. TOSU is not a basketball school. For Thad to do what he does is outstanding. He just news a better re-load next time and the NCAA has to bust UK. It is inevitable.

UK + Calipari = toxic avenger f'd up.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:51 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
jb wrote:<----- Still walking around just saying "fuck!" every half hour almost 24 hours later.


Why?



An Ohio title?

Hurrrr Duurrrrr ??!?!?!?!

Sorry for the Nazi crack. Ur still a dirty rotten cur.
Last edited by jb on Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:53 pm

Matta does deserve some degree of criticism seeing as how much talent he is able to get and still find ways to not get into the final 4 enough or have a championship yet.

Building depth seems to elude his style of coaching, and he is not a perennial X & O guy, solid maybe but not special.
Last edited by FUDU on Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:58 pm

FUDU wrote:Motta does deserve some degree of criticism seeing as how much talent he is able to get and still find ways to not get into the final 4 enough or have a championship yet.

Building depth seems to elude his style of coaching, and he is not a perennial X & O guy, solid maybe but not special.



College hoops is currently 100% about renting Jimmys and DeShauns. Doesn't have a fuckin thing to do with X's and O's anymore. Calipari's roles out payments like he rolls out balls onto the practice court.

I give him and UK 3 more years; max. Both have always been dirty, are dirty now, and will be busted. Cryst, I've been to Lexington. It's awe - ite at best.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:05 pm

You seem to hate Calipari as much as me.

And I agree, it's only a matter of time before he leaves them in flames like every other program he's worked for.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:08 pm

But if you don't have the UNC & UK athletes then you need to do some coaching. Otherwise I agree with you, it's like a rent a center for hoops rosters now a days. Reload/rebuild every other year. Calipari just pulls up to the back shipping door.

I've been saying Calipari is walking a dangerous line for a while, which is why I so wanted Pitino to win so badly.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby jb » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:24 pm

FUDU wrote:But if you don't have the UNC & UK athletes then you need to do some coaching.


If you don't, coaching doesn't matter.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:30 pm

It either needs to be 3 years minimum, or straight to the NBA from HS.

This one and done shit is fucking stupid.

The NBA can suck my dick.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:43 pm

It's funny how some of us are saying Matta gets a free pass that Tressel didn't get.

I find it even funnier how tOSU basketball team was in the final four, within reach of the national title, and it didn't even merit its own thread. And even within this thread, there was very little commotion about tOSU basketball... until they got beat.

On the contrary, if tOSU was within reach of a national title in football, Swerb would need to get additional servers and up his bandwidth.

Not looking for a fight, just saying how little buzz tOSU getting into the final four, a dream of most programs, got here at TCF.com. We certainly treat tOSU different in football than basketball.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:44 pm

jb wrote:
FUDU wrote:But if you don't have the UNC & UK athletes then you need to do some coaching.


If you don't, coaching doesn't matter.


UK is irrelevant. I see zero banners in the rafters from the last decade.

And maybe we should wait for Kentucky to get caught. That should effectively end all cheating in the NCAA as I'm sure there will be no one else out there looking to buy talented AAU teams and let them play under a college banner. Then Thad can win the day when the playing field is even.

Come on.

I watched fucking Butler play in back to back national championship games. Both after Thad was there if I recall. UNC doesn't have the athletes Baylor or Mississippi State or Oregon run out every night (at least no better athletes).

The Buckeyes don't have better athletes than Butler? They have as many McD's All Americans on that team as KY did or it's one-off.

He hasn't gotten it done. And OSU is as much a freaking basketball school as Florida is. Tired of the excuses.

Not saying run him or get pitchforks (although we're clearly going to paint in that way so others can feel better about themselves as that is what we do here), I'm saying look at the body of work.

And no one's going to tell me that nationally Matta is ridiculed or lampooned like Tressel was. Even before the apocalypse.

Stop.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:50 pm

Pre-Matta, how many OSU final fours were there, and how long ago? Its not like he inherited a basketball dynasty. I mean his undoing seems to be his being an elite recruiter, thus raising expectations. If he was an average recruiter, but an excellent X and O guy and motivator, no one would be complaining??
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:50 pm

OldDawg wrote:It's funny how some of us are saying Matta gets a free pass that Tressel didn't get.

I find it even funnier how tOSU basketball team was in the final four, within reach of the national title, and it didn't even merit its own thread. And even within this thread, there was very little commotion about tOSU basketball... until they got beat.

On the contrary, if tOSU was within reach of a national title in football, Swerb would need to get additional servers and up his bandwidth.

Not looking for a fight, just saying how little buzz tOSU getting into the final four, a dream of most programs, got here at TCF.com. We certainly treat tOSU different in football than basketball.


Valid point.

My issue is I couldn't find the heartbeat for this team during the middle of the season on and I blame coaching for that specifically. The Final Four run was surprising to me (not shocking because I always thought in this day and age they had Final Four talent and they WERE a top 5 team for a lot of the season). But people are effing kidding me to say the constant whining and chirping with officials and the lackadaisical play for long periods of time isn't a reflection of the head coach and the staff.

That's doing a good job?

End of Saturday night it was the laziness and the lack of focus/direction that beat them IMO.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:54 pm

OldDawg wrote:Pre-Matta, how many OSU final fours were there, and how long ago? Its not like he inherited a basketball dynasty. I mean his undoing seems to be his being an elite recruiter, thus raising expectations. If he was an average recruiter, but an excellent X and O guy and motivator, no one would be complaining??


^^^ Well... this is the question and the issue in a nutshell ^^^

That is the case in point: we had ^^^^ this argument ^^^^ almost monthly regarding Tressel. It was here, it was all over, it was nationally discussed.

It was the exact same argument.

This is the first time it's being broached here.

And you're telling me he's an elite recruiter with elite talent and lacks X's and O's while JB is telling me that elite talent doesn't go to a football school like OSU and that he's fine for the program. And maybe he truly is.

But I agree with you. I think he does recruit elite talent. I'm not even saying I want the great coach/shitty recruiter near Columbus.

My point was it's not been discussed here or nationally even while Matta's national disasters pile up.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:56 pm

Regarding the "whining and chirping," what would this team have looked like if A Craft wasn't on the team. Not only did he fairly consistently lead by example, the guy pulled that team together on every dead ball to try to get his team to focus.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:59 pm

OldDawg wrote:Regarding the "whining and chirping," what would this team have looked like if A Craft wasn't on the team. Not only did he fairly consistently lead by example, the guy pulled that team together on every dead ball to try to get his team to focus.


Amen he did. I mentioned that in last week's article.

That kid is clearly a coach on the floor and he'll be a coach somewhere when his career is over professionally.

And the hustle and rip away last night with the game in the balance, without fouling? That actually made me come up short on a breath when I saw it. And Craft will be even more of a leader when Sully leaves. It will unquestionably be his team at that point.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:05 pm

Why should we care what the shitheel national media had to say about Tress pre meltdown?

They're all brainless cunts. National sports writing is probably the lowest form of "journalism" to ever exist. Ain't a single one worth a pound of piss. Not one.

They all have an agenda.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:10 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Why should we care what the shitheel national media had to say about Tress pre meltdown?

They're all brainless cunts. National sports writing is probably the lowest form of "journalism" to ever exist. Ain't a single one worth a pound of piss. Not one.

They all have an agenda.



Water under the bridge. I agree but that wasn't the point anyway. Talking about it now, right?

You rather have the uber-recruiter who's a mediocre coach or a great coach who's a mediocre recruiter and where do you see Matta on that scale?
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:39 pm

Matta is a solid coach, and a great recruiter.

That's how I see him.

I don't expect a title, or even a Final 4 every year. I don't like how it ended, but we're going to be good again next year.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:48 pm

Getting some Facebook feedback for this week's Wrap, Peeks. One of the few times I've seen that happen on the STO feed.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:08 pm

Here's what I'm hearing. At the biggest university in the country where elite talent is gathered and collected for football and basketball, 10-2 or 11-1, beating UM and going to a BCS bowl game is not acceptable in football where you need NC trophies but it's acceptable in basketball.

Tressel (before Meyer blew it away) was regarded as great recruiter and fair game day coach who was stuck in a different era and when Florida/LSU crushed them and played in a current era Tressel was held up as a dinosaur and a bygone of a time that had past.

Matta is in the same boat but it's cool because it's better than where O'Brien left the program (though he rebuilt it and put it back on the map anyway) and it's not a basketball factory. But it's alright that Matta can't play the new game even while he collects as many McD's All Americans as anyone else.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Here's what I'm hearing. At the biggest university in the country where elite talent is gathered and collected for football and basketball, 10-2 or 11-1, beating UM and going to a BCS bowl game is not acceptable in football where you need NC trophies but it's acceptable in basketball


Where are you hearing that from?

Anyone who expects a title every year is a fucking spoiled front running moron.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:28 pm

On an aside, regarding your media comments...

Big City media is as bad as national media...

I have a connection to John Groce from OU who just got the Illinois job. I am, tho, not a "close friend." I followed all the rumors leading up to the hiring, the delay in negotiations, etc, at Illinois on the internet.

The day of and the day after the hiring, the Chicago Tribune "experts" were basically telling Groce in their paper who he needs to put on his staff. First they were saying that he had to talk one of the assistants into staying. Most people I know say you should rarely, if ever, keep a guy around. Who is that person loyal to?? And is he ticked he didn't get the head job?? Then they said he had to make an attempt to hire the local Chicago high school coach (who is already upset that he didn't get interviewed for the head coaching job), to be on his staff. They even interviewed said high school coach, and he said he would consider talking to Groce, but the conditions/philosophy would have to be right for him. You are applying for an assistant coaching job at a high-end cut-throat Big 10 school and you are a high school coach and you are gonna set the conditions? Are you kidding?? That's all I gotta know. I don't want you on my staff. That guy has no idea how hard DI assistant coaches work.

My point: Illinois just hired Groce (which was received in a very luke warm fashion) and you are telling him how to do his job. The guy needs to surround himself with people that are loyal to him. Guys that will do whatever he asks them to do. Maybe he does hire one of these guys. But he needs to do it on his terms, because HE thinks it is the best thing to do.

If the first thing he does, is try to please the media, then he will have a very frustrating time there.

The buck is gonna stop on his desk. He better do it his way.

But according to the media, he will be darned if you do, darned if you don't.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:34 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Here's what I'm hearing. At the biggest university in the country where elite talent is gathered and collected for football and basketball, 10-2 or 11-1, beating UM and going to a BCS bowl game is not acceptable in football where you need NC trophies but it's acceptable in basketball


Where are you hearing that from?

Anyone who expects a title every year is a fucking spoiled front running moron.



Should you expect a title 'any' year with Matta? Is he capable of getting his recruits there with his style, system and average ability to coach the recruits he brings in?

Not close....winning one.

Are you, is Columbus, is Ohio State okay if he doesn't win one. Is he in any danger? Is there growing frustration like there was with Tressel.

What about outside of Columbus. Are people here tired of 30 wins and a Sweet Sixteen/Elite 8 trip with limited hope of a title?
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:34 pm

What the fuck are you talking about?

Big city media?

What is that?
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:46 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:What the fuck are you talking about?

Big city media?

What is that?

In my mind
Big City media = Chicago, NY, LA...
National media = ESPN, etc

Actually big city media is much more intrusive than national media.

I think the PD is quite forgiving when it comes to their sports coverage. And typically offer a honeymoon period for coaches, athletes. Some even might call them homers. There is no forgiveness nor honeymoon in the bigger cities.

I was being sympathetic to someone I know who will likely never please the Chicago media.

I did say it was an aside. Not quite on topic.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:48 pm

Are you, is Columbus, is Ohio State okay if he doesn't win one. Is he in any danger? Is there growing frustration like there was with Tressel.


No, he's not in danger. And sure there's frustration, but you can't dump him because he hasn't delivered a title. It ain't easy.... there's 64 teams that didn't make is as far as we did.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:50 pm

OldDawg wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:What the fuck are you talking about?

Big city media?

What is that?

In my mind
Big City media = Chicago, NY, LA...
National media = ESPN, etc


Given the number of transplants from those areas, i'd say they're the same thing, Hoss. People read stuff from those outlets in bumfuck Arkansas on their computers.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby jb » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:57 am

OldDawg wrote:Pre-Matta, how many OSU final fours were there, and how long ago? Its not like he inherited a basketball dynasty. I mean his undoing seems to be his being an elite recruiter, thus raising expectations. If he was an average recruiter, but an excellent X and O guy and motivator, no one would be complaining??



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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:05 pm

OldDawg wrote:Pre-Matta, how many OSU final fours were there, and how long ago? Its not like he inherited a basketball dynasty. I mean his undoing seems to be his being an elite recruiter, thus raising expectations. If he was an average recruiter, but an excellent X and O guy and motivator, no one would be complaining??


Actually he inherited a trainwreck after Jim O'Brien and envelopes full of cash. Show me a good X's and O's guy that is not a good recruiter and I'll show you a good HS coach.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:00 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
OldDawg wrote:Pre-Matta, how many OSU final fours were there, and how long ago? Its not like he inherited a basketball dynasty. I mean his undoing seems to be his being an elite recruiter, thus raising expectations. If he was an average recruiter, but an excellent X and O guy and motivator, no one would be complaining??


Actually he inherited a trainwreck after Jim O'Brien and envelopes full of cash. Show me a good X's and O's guy that is not a good recruiter and I'll show you a good HS coach.


I think you're describing Bo Ryan...

It doesn't matter, none of this matters. Matta isn't going anywhere.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:02 pm

Not to mention it was O'Brien who inherited a train wreck and took them to a Final Four the next season.

I've come to find the very best coach at Ohio State is the one there today and then that guy gets really dumb and far worse the day he's replaced by the next great coach.

I'll assume it's like that at all big universities and I'll move on.

And please... let us be careful about annointing any coach's program a 'clean' one...mmmmkay??

I'm sure Thad is as pure as the driven snow....... today.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:04 pm

peeker643 wrote:I've come to find the very best coach at Ohio State is the one there today and then that guy gets really dumb and far worse the day he's replaced by the next great coach.


Examples? Assume you're talking about JT and Urban the Great?? Otherwise, who?

Were Tressel's shortcomings left unexamined for ten years? (Were Cooper's?) Is everyone calling him dumb and far worse today? Don't see it. Were Bruce and Cooper lionized by the fan base while they were here...not really. It's a unique and fortunate circumstance this time around.

Not sure that's the case in any general sense, at OSU or elsewhere for that matter. Some of the guys they run off look pretty good in the rearview mirror...Gary Williams comes to mind. No one thinks he got dumb. In football, Cooper was never hailed as the next great one, and Bruce is a program fixture to this day.

Peeks, you and I have discussed before we are in touch with different slices of the OSU fan base...but I just don't see that.

And it's not to defend O'Brien to recall that he spent his own money...about $6,000 to help a player and his family in Croatia or wherever. There is a difference of type and scale to take into account in defining him as "dirty". Of course there were lots of families in war-torn Croatia in need of $6,000, but they didn't have 7-foot tall sons. I get it. But it's not Will Lyles either.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:24 pm

danwismar wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I've come to find the very best coach at Ohio State is the one there today and then that guy gets really dumb and far worse the day he's replaced by the next great coach.


Examples? Assume you're talking about JT and Urban the Great?? Otherwise, who?

Were Tressel's shortcomings left unexamined for ten years? (Were Cooper's?) Is everyone calling him dumb and far worse today? Don't see it. Were Bruce and Cooper lionized by the fan base while they were here...not really. It's a unique and fortunate circumstance this time around.

Not sure that's the case in any general sense, at OSU or elsewhere for that matter. Some of the guys they run off look pretty good in the rearview mirror...Gary Williams comes to mind. No one thinks he got dumb. In football, Cooper was never hailed as the next great one, and Bruce is a program fixture to this day.

Peeks, you and I have discussed before we are in touch with different slices of the OSU fan base...but I just don't see that.

And it's not to defend O'Brien to recall that he spent his own money...about $6,000 to help a player and his family in Croatia or wherever. There is a difference of type and scale to take into account in defining him as "dirty". Of course there were lots of families in war-torn Croatia in need of $6,000, but they didn't have 7-foot tall sons. I get it. But it's not Will Lyles either.


What are you lecturing me about O'Brien for? Why the Willie Lyles reference? And it was Radejovic who got the $6k but Savovic that crushed O'Brien's windpipes.

I have no issue at all with what O'Brien did. Would have done it myself if I was in the position to help a kid out like that. O'Brien was liked and respected down there and heralded a hero for his run in '99 or whatever.

I'm not the one demeaning O'Brien, O'Brien's program, O'Brien's Final Four Appearance, O'Brien's handling of Michael Redd and Scoonie Penn nor the state of the program when O'Brien left.

It's people here/in C'Bus telling me that Matta found a program in ruins.

Bullshit. He found no such thing. No more so than Meyer found a program in ruins. Stunned disarray? Okay...maybe. But O'Brien went to what was then a record 4 straight tournies, was coach of the year twice, won 120 games, etc.

I get it. Meyer is God today. Matta is God today. That's how it works in big universities.

Like Tressel was God and O'Brien was God and how they were clean and how they were doing things the right way. Right up til the day they weren't.

I understand. I just find it hard to understand why people have such a hard time remembering it and such an easy time calling it something else that it wasn't.

It's always intrigued me and baffled me. Clearly. I find it riveting from a sociological standpoint. You guys take this stuff so amazingly personally that it truly, honestly surprises me even when I know it's coming.

Maybe it's different in the twitter/facebook/electronic communication age?

I dunno.

But it fascinates me and I can't help it.

Hey, maybe one year Matta recruits so well he can't lose. Maybe he recruits a tremendous class and he gets some luck in the matchups. Maybe.

Maybe Billy Donovan and Calipari and Self and those guys are dirty and lucky. I don't know.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:38 pm

Not lecturing anybody, Peeker. Used Lyles as an example of flat-out purchasing of player talent, that's all.

It wasn't me running down O'Brien...and I was just saying the "Tressel is God...Matta is God" stuff you attribute to OSU fans just isn't a universal thing. It's what you see and find amusing/interesting/appalling...but you paint with too broad a brush.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:06 pm

danwismar wrote:Not lecturing anybody, Peeker. Used Lyles as an example of flat-out purchasing of player talent, that's all.

It wasn't me running down O'Brien...and I was just saying the "Tressel is God...Matta is God" stuff you attribute to OSU fans just isn't a universal thing. It's what you see and find amusing/interesting/appalling...but you paint with too broad a brush.


Nothing's universal. But it's far more prevalent than many are willing to admit. Rational people laugh at the irrationality. People you know, people I know.

For folks to say Matta is great and Matta inherited a train wreck just stinks of...well... not being true. No matter how you try and spin it.

Maybe he was the best X & O guy in New Orleans. Maybe he was a better recruiter than all but one of the guys down there. Makes it even more strange to me how the Buckeyes seem to fall flat under him. Last year, this year.... happens enough that it would get Earl Bruce let go ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:14 pm

Matta is God today.


No one fucking thinks he's god....... a good CBB coach and a excellent recruiter.

In all my time living in this area talking sports with other fans, i've never heard one damn person say that. Not one.

Matta inherited a program that was middle of the road at a football crazy school, it's wasn't the bottom of the barrel, but it wasn't near the top either.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:33 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Matta is God today.


No one fucking thinks he's god....... a good CBB coach and a excellent recruiter.

In all my time living in this area talking sports with other fans, i've never heard one damn person say that. Not one.

Matta inherited a program that was middle of the road at a football crazy school, it's wasn't the bottom of the barrel, but it wasn't near the top either.


They don't literally say it you hump. At least I hope the virus isn't that goddamn aggressive.

Hell...Maybe they do.

And bullshit. Randy Ayers left it in the shitter. O'Brien elevated that program. I say it again: telling me after Florida won two titles and Butler played in two that OSU isn't a basketball school and that O'Brien left a smoldering pile of dung for Matta is is pure, unadulterated bullshit. It just is.

And telling me that "it's tough to win a title" wouldn't apply if the football coach was 10-2 and losing title games or BCS games each year.

If what he gives is fine then fine. But just say the standards and expectations are different for him than the football coach and that you're okay with not being Minnesota on the hardwood. That good is good enough and that titles aren't the ultimate goal.

If they are Matta's not even a 6-iron within Izzo for best coach in the conference.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:46 pm

BTW- Izzo's top five in the country. It's hard to find an Izzo so I know that's unfair. But it's tough to be Tom Izzo and win titles much less Thad Matta.

I just think, end of the day, Matta's teams lack the toughness and basketball character that a guy like Izzo's teams ALWAYS seem to have.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:12 pm

nd that O'Brien left a smoldering pile of dung for Matta is is pure, unadulterated bullshit. It just is.


I never said that. I said middle of the road. Which it was.

and telling me that "it's tough to win a title" wouldn't apply if the football coach was 10-2 and losing title games or BCS games each year.


Sure it would. If you (not you specifically, talking in general) expect a title every year, and then get your heart broken, then whine about what a failure the season was. you're a goddamn fool..... and a front running asswipe.

But just say the standards and expectations are different for him than the football coach


I did say that.
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Re: Big Dance - 2012

Unread postby dmiles » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:39 pm

Not that the Cavs will get him, but what is Davis' upside? Are we talking Duncan or Olajuwon perhaps? or more Marcus Camby? With the late in life growth, his post offense is not refined, but given the overall skill level you'd have to think he'll turn that around.

I think back to my youthful days, and why do I not think I am watching the next Patrick Ewing/Hakeem/Duncan. Christ his defense is ridiculous, and yet I just don't have that same feeling about him. Could be that I was simply more in awe of the big names as a kid. (Dewey of course I never really saw before being drafted)
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