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Draft Prospect Reset

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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:05 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
JCoz wrote:
peeker643 wrote:It would not surprise me if he rose to 'meh' levels again this season. Better than last year and just good enough to muddy the waters for some.


This is by far the worst and most dangerous part about not replacing Colt this offseason.


Definitely it is. If there are all these people still grinding the "Give Colt a chance" axes, imagine what it'll be like if he's somewhat better and the team goes 7-9.

Hopefully our FO won't buy into fool's gold the way that Denver's didn't, but I see no reason to get my hopes up.


But the bigger problem is 7-9 gets you "The Hell of Mediocrity." 7-9 makes it VERY tough to get your franchise guy via the draft- too far down, w/o enough ammo. At this point, I want an A or an F from the Browns.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:21 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
JCoz wrote:
peeker643 wrote:It would not surprise me if he rose to 'meh' levels again this season. Better than last year and just good enough to muddy the waters for some.


This is by far the worst and most dangerous part about not replacing Colt this offseason.


Definitely it is. If there are all these people still grinding the "Give Colt a chance" axes, imagine what it'll be like if he's somewhat better and the team goes 7-9.

Hopefully our FO won't buy into fool's gold the way that Denver's didn't, but I see no reason to get my hopes up.


But the bigger problem is 7-9 gets you "The Hell of Mediocrity." 7-9 makes it VERY tough to get your franchise guy via the draft- too far down, w/o enough ammo. At this point, I want an A or an F from the Browns.


Oh, have no worry, I completely agree.

But I think a lot of people would be fine with "The Hell of Mediocrity" for a while. Why else would they be banging the "Keep Colt" drum?

Unless we get really lucky, not getting RG3 sets us back at least one year (and probably more).
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:26 pm

Ziner wrote:Brush up on those 6th and 7th round prospects... we have 3 of each now due to compensatory picks.


My proposal - spend all 6 on the same position. Odds are a lot better that one of them actually turns out to be decent.

Training camp would be lots of fun with 6 late round QB's fighting for their lives.

OK, fine, that's impractical.

Spend all 3 6's on OL. Spend all 3 7's on WR.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby pup » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:44 pm

It doesn't matter what you have around him.

Colt McCoy ain't winning 7 games next year.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:44 pm

pup wrote:It doesn't matter what you have around him.

Colt McCoy ain't winning 7 games next year.


I doubt it too.

But I've seen it happen way too many times with his QB-ing equivalents to say it's impossible.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:03 am

You guys are confusing the Association with the League.

Incremental improvement works just fine on Sunday. Much better than the huge jump if you team's name doesn't rhyme with "bears".
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:09 am

jb wrote:You guys are confusing the Association with the League.

Incremental improvement works just fine on Sunday. Much better than the huge jump if you team's name doesn't rhyme with "bears".


Incremental improvement DOES work just fine, so long as there's hope for continued improvement.

My fear is that there's a cap on how high a Colt-led team can climb: High enough to prolong hope and to keep them from drafting difference-makers, but not high enough to matter.

Thus my assertion that incremental improvement for this team (as currently QB'd) is Fool's Cubic Zirconium.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:13 am

Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:You guys are confusing the Association with the League.

Incremental improvement works just fine on Sunday. Much better than the huge jump if you team's name doesn't rhyme with "bears".


Incremental improvement DOES work just fine, so long as there's hope for continued improvement.

My fear is that there's a cap on how high a Colt-led team can climb: High enough to prolong hope and to keep them from drafting difference-makers, but not high enough to matter.

Thus my assertion that incremental improvement for this team (as currently QB'd) is Fool's Cubic Zirconium.



My only hope is that Holmgren did this before with Jon Shitna and then kicked him to the curb.

At this point I don't think Colty McHeadache is the showstopper. There's so many problems that you have to improve somehow. Can't sit around and hope. We won't win 7 games because of Colt and the talent level. We can always future-mortgage if there's a must have QB, which BTW I am far from convinced Barkley is.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:13 am

Well, they've tried finishing in the bottom five to align themselves with those difference makers the last two years. And it hasn't exactly worked out that way.

Do they need to finish 1-15 to get one?

I think they got one with Haden a couple years back and I think you can get difference makers and elite players in a lot of places other than in draft spots 1-3. The league is full of elite players who went after that in the draft. In fact, 90% of elite players went after that.

I think we're being too narrow on where you need to be to find talent.

They just need to be right and they need to be right often.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:17 am

jb wrote: We won't win 7 games because of Colt and the talent level. We can always future-mortgage if there's a must have QB, which BTW I am far from convinced Barkley is.



Never agreed with you more than I do about Barkley. I just can't help but think he's a product of the ridiculous talent around him more so than his own talent.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:25 am

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:You guys are confusing the Association with the League.

Incremental improvement works just fine on Sunday. Much better than the huge jump if you team's name doesn't rhyme with "bears".


Incremental improvement DOES work just fine, so long as there's hope for continued improvement.

My fear is that there's a cap on how high a Colt-led team can climb: High enough to prolong hope and to keep them from drafting difference-makers, but not high enough to matter.

Thus my assertion that incremental improvement for this team (as currently QB'd) is Fool's Cubic Zirconium.



My only hope is that Holmgren did this before with Jon Shitna and then kicked him to the curb.

At this point I don't think Colty McHeadache is the showstopper. There's so many problems that you have to improve somehow. Can't sit around and hope. We won't win 7 games because of Colt and the talent level. We can always future-mortgage if there's a must have QB, which BTW I am far from convinced Barkley is.


Agree on the Kitna situation - I think Holmgren would like to duplicate that.

Disagree on Colt not being a showstopper, with the idea that the "show" is the SB. If the "show" is improvement, no, he's not a showstopper there.

Disagree on "we can always future-mortgage", they already tried it twice and failed both times. Apparently even with a Top 5 pick and a huge offer, it ain't easy getting these "franchise" guys.

Agree on the Barkley doubt. But no one was talking about RG3 this time last year either, so there's probably a decent chance someone(s) will rise up and put Barkliocrity down in the mid-1st-round range where he belongs.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:28 am

Hikohadon wrote:Agree on the Barkley doubt. But no one was talking about RG3 this time last year either, so there's probably a decent chance someone(s) will rise up and put Barkliocrity down in the mid-1st-round range where he belongs.


Tyler Wilson fits the profile. Got some run late in the year after not being talked about much at all. He has a big year and moves Barkley down the charts again.

And there will be another guy or two who emerge as well but I'd look at Barkley and Wilson as next year's versions of Luck and RG3 right now.

Crank up the hype machine because it's gonna happen ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:31 am

peeker643 wrote:Well, they've tried finishing in the bottom five to align themselves with those difference makers the last two years. And it hasn't exactly worked out that way.

Do they need to finish 1-15 to get one?

I think they got one with Haden a couple years back and I think you can get difference makers and elite players in a lot of places other than in draft spots 1-3. The league is full of elite players who went after that in the draft. In fact, 90% of elite players went after that.

I think we're being too narrow on where you need to be to find talent.

They just need to be right and they need to be right often.


This is correct... once you already have your QB.

Here are the ways you get your Franchise QB:

1. Suck bad enough to get the top pick.
2. Draft in the Top 10-12 in a year when there are 3-4 really solid QB prospects.
3. Trade away everything including your youngest daughter to move up if you can find a team that has a terrible record but already has a QB (rare).
4. Get lottery-winning lucky on a late round/UFA guy.

You can build a nice team without a Franchise QB, but that team will only be able to go so far. So there is truly no reason to get excited about a team unless you believe said team has the Franchise QB on the roster.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:34 am

Hikohadon wrote:You can build a nice team without a Franchise QB, but that team will only be able to go so far. So there is truly no reason to get excited about a team unless you believe said team has the Franchise QB on the roster.


I agree with me...err...you.

But we're not getting that guy this year and they're gonna make us play the games in the fall regardless. So get the rest of a decent built and then do what needs to be done to get the big piece. It's not coming this year. And if you can't get one of two dudes who are elite at #4 when one of the teams wants no part of the elite guys, you need to attack that situation differently ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:41 am

peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:You can build a nice team without a Franchise QB, but that team will only be able to go so far. So there is truly no reason to get excited about a team unless you believe said team has the Franchise QB on the roster.


I agree with me...err...you.

But we're not getting that guy this year and they're gonna make us play the games in the fall regardless. So get the rest of a decent built and then do what needs to be done to get the big piece. It's not coming this year. And if you can't get one of two dudes who are elite at #4 when one of the teams wants no part of the elite guys, you need to attack that situation differently ;-) ;) :wink:


Yeah, you need to go 1-15 and stop wasting seasons in purgatory.

:hide:

In all honesty, if the Browns start 1-3 or 0-4, I don't know how I'll keep myself from rooting for a full-out tank-a-thon.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:48 am

peeker643 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Agree on the Barkley doubt. But no one was talking about RG3 this time last year either, so there's probably a decent chance someone(s) will rise up and put Barkliocrity down in the mid-1st-round range where he belongs.


Tyler Wilson fits the profile. Got some run late in the year after not being talked about much at all. He has a big year and moves Barkley down the charts again.

And there will be another guy or two who emerge as well but I'd look at Barkley and Wilson as next year's versions of Luck and RG3 right now.

Crank up the hype machine because it's gonna happen ;-) ;) :wink:



I couldn't agree more.

Cam Newton in 2010 anyone?

We have no idea who is that HS kid who in 2 years is the next RG3, but he's out there.

And Hiko, there's a dif between "mortgaging" and taking out a home equity loan.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:50 am

Hikohadon wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Well, they've tried finishing in the bottom five to align themselves with those difference makers the last two years. And it hasn't exactly worked out that way.

Do they need to finish 1-15 to get one?

I think they got one with Haden a couple years back and I think you can get difference makers and elite players in a lot of places other than in draft spots 1-3. The league is full of elite players who went after that in the draft. In fact, 90% of elite players went after that.

I think we're being too narrow on where you need to be to find talent.

They just need to be right and they need to be right often.


This is correct... once you already have your QB.



Here are the ways you get your Franchise QB:

1. Suck bad enough to get the top pick.
2. Draft in the Top 10-12 in a year when there are 3-4 really solid QB prospects.
3. Trade away everything including your youngest daughter to move up if you can find a team that has a terrible record but already has a QB (rare).
4. Get lottery-winning lucky on a late round/UFA guy.

You can build a nice team without a Franchise QB, but that team will only be able to go so far. So there is truly no reason to get excited about a team unless you believe said team has the Franchise QB on the roster.



5. Trade for another team's developed prospect stuck behind a perceived franchise starter.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby pup » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:50 am

Man, with a couple being out there every year you would think the league would be chock full of elite QB's. At some point, we will be the only team without one and the next one will have to fall in our lap.

Now, that is a plan.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:51 am

jb wrote:And Hiko, there's a dif between "mortgaging" and taking out a home equity loan.


True. But when neither works, you find yourself still living in your mom's basement.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:54 am

jb wrote:5. Trade for another team's developed prospect stuck behind a perceived franchise starter.


I meant "Franchise" QB, not Kevin Kolb.

But, yes, that is another way to go.

Still think you're better off tanking for #1 overall.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:58 am

JFC already

:dead:

Colt McCoy is never going to be confused with Peyton Manning

No shit!

FINE!

We all know that

He's going to be the QB this yr tho...accept it since there's not a damn thing anyone here can do about it

...and the WR's are STILL Little Cribbs and Slow Mass...but since McCoy is still the starter I guess we shouldn't look at any WR's with speed...??? That's just ignorant

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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:33 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:JFC already

:dead:

Colt McCoy is never going to be confused with Peyton Manning

No shit!

FINE!

We all know that

He's going to be the QB this yr tho...accept it since there's not a damn thing anyone here can do about it

...and the WR's are STILL Little Cribbs and Slow Mass...but since McCoy is still the starter I guess we shouldn't look at any WR's with speed...??? That's just ignorant

He's a sacrificial lamb at the altar of time


Dude, who are you talking to? Did someone post something that I didn't see?

I don't think I saw one person post that they shouldn't get more WR talent. Nor one person that doesn't know that Colt will be the QB this year.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:14 am

Hikohadon wrote:
Dude, who are you talking to?


Charlie I think. Flashback. ;-)

(If that's offensive I apologize. Good taste has never been a strength)
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:59 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:JFC already

:dead:

Colt McCoy is never going to be confused with Peyton Manning

No shit!

FINE!

We all know that

He's going to be the QB this yr tho...accept it since there's not a damn thing anyone here can do about it

...and the WR's are STILL Little Cribbs and Slow Mass...but since McCoy is still the starter I guess we shouldn't look at any WR's with speed...??? That's just ignorant

He's a sacrificial lamb at the altar of time



SD:

Hmm ones a 6 foot shrimp with a chicken wing and the other is a seven foot giant with a halo , so i could see how there would be some confusion telling one from the other .

FMB >

FINE!

We all know that

He's going to be the QB this yr tho...accept it since there's not a damn thing anyone here can do about it.

SD:

Well there was a rumor about a picture going around with you Colt the back of a pickup and a baby calf ,,

but i wanted it to be a surprise .


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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:23 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
Dude, who are you talking to?


Charlie I think. Flashback. ;-)

(If that's offensive I apologize. Good taste has never been a strength)


INCOMING!!!!!!!

lol

I think I had that saved and posted it unaware that I had....

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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:33 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:5. Trade for another team's developed prospect stuck behind a perceived franchise starter.


I meant "Franchise" QB, not Kevin Kolb.

But, yes, that is another way to go.

Still think you're better off tanking for #1 overall.


One, fanbase won't tolerate no progress. Two, and I can't believe we're reduced to this, but anyone else think Matt Barkley is shrimpy?
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:36 pm

pup wrote:It doesn't matter what you have around him.

Colt McCoy ain't winning 7 games next year.


Alex Smith says Hi. You add Richardson, Floyd or Hill and an RT, then yes, 7-9 is VERY doable.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:59 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:5. Trade for another team's developed prospect stuck behind a perceived franchise starter.


I meant "Franchise" QB, not Kevin Kolb.

But, yes, that is another way to go.

Still think you're better off tanking for #1 overall.


One, fanbase won't tolerate no progress. Two, and I can't believe we're reduced to this, but anyone else think Matt Barkley is shrimpy?


The fanbase doesn't play the games. They'll have to tolerate what comes their way, or give up. Not sure 6-10 is gonna psyche the fanbase up much more than 1-15 (and the knowledge that they'll be in position to finally get 'er done QB-wise).

And I'm not a huge Barkley fan either.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby pup » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:06 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:
pup wrote:It doesn't matter what you have around him.

Colt McCoy ain't winning 7 games next year.


Alex Smith says Hi. You add Richardson, Floyd or Hill and an RT, then yes, 7-9 is VERY doable.


Alex Smith had the talent and skills to be the #1 overall pick.

Colt McCoy has the talent and skills to be almost given a vote of confidence when his only competition is a career backup.

Man, you guys got this NFL thing down pat. All the suck we have seen right in front of our eyes, and all this time we were only Richardson, Floyd and a RT away.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:02 am

CleSportsTruth wrote:
One, fanbase won't tolerate no progress.



Go lurk OBR 's main board for a while.

Then come back & tell me same.

I believe that the feighnt hearted checked out after this seasonal ready.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:13 am

pup wrote:
CleSportsTruth wrote:
pup wrote:It doesn't matter what you have around him.

Colt McCoy ain't winning 7 games next year.


Alex Smith says Hi. You add Richardson, Floyd or Hill and an RT, then yes, 7-9 is VERY doable.


Alex Smith had the talent and skills to be the #1 overall pick.

Colt McCoy has the talent and skills to be almost given a vote of confidence when his only competition is a career backup.

Man, you guys got this NFL thing down pat. All the suck we have seen right in front of our eyes, and all this time we were only Richardson, Floyd and a RT away.


Hopefully Richardson can come in be the best back in the league and make as big a difference in winning as AP or Chris Johnson.....

And Floyd can come in and be a great receiver, following in the footsteps of other greats that didn't have a QB like......

The team can no longer carry a QB, NFL 2012. Virtually extict is the "Game Manager" If Alex Smith had played like he did in years past, the Niners, with that great defense and running game, against a last place schedule, would've won the amount of games they did when Smith blew. And if he regresses this year they won't make the playoffs either.

Really, the onus is on McCoy here. Just like the onus is on Christian Ponder in Minnesota, or whomever the Dolphins decide to go with. You protect the guy, and the good ones will make their weapons, like the good ones have, every year, throughout the history of the league.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:36 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
CleSportsTruth wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:5. Trade for another team's developed prospect stuck behind a perceived franchise starter.


I meant "Franchise" QB, not Kevin Kolb.

But, yes, that is another way to go.

Still think you're better off tanking for #1 overall.


One, fanbase won't tolerate no progress. Two, and I can't believe we're reduced to this, but anyone else think Matt Barkley is shrimpy?


The fanbase doesn't play the games. They'll have to tolerate what comes their way, or give up. Not sure 6-10 is gonna psyche the fanbase up much more than 1-15 (and the knowledge that they'll be in position to finally get 'er done QB-wise).

And I'm not a huge Barkley fan either.


Which brings up two things. One, do H+H survive another 5-11 or worse yr. w/ Lerner? Esp. if there are multiple blackouts?

Two, if we don't like Barkley, what's the point in tanking?
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:58 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
CleSportsTruth wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:
jb wrote:5. Trade for another team's developed prospect stuck behind a perceived franchise starter.


I meant "Franchise" QB, not Kevin Kolb.

But, yes, that is another way to go.

Still think you're better off tanking for #1 overall.


One, fanbase won't tolerate no progress. Two, and I can't believe we're reduced to this, but anyone else think Matt Barkley is shrimpy?


The fanbase doesn't play the games. They'll have to tolerate what comes their way, or give up. Not sure 6-10 is gonna psyche the fanbase up much more than 1-15 (and the knowledge that they'll be in position to finally get 'er done QB-wise).

And I'm not a huge Barkley fan either.


Which brings up two things. One, do H+H survive another 5-11 or worse yr. w/ Lerner? Esp. if there are multiple blackouts?

Two, if we don't like Barkley, what's the point in tanking?


SD:

Unlike this year and last year , there are no sure fire stars in next years QB class.

Reach for Tanny and shelf him , you get a big white athletic QB who can throw minimum , with a bunch of cannon fodder you can sacrifice as pawns around here to keep him outta the shit until such time as he actually has a chance to learn something and be productive.

We have all these supposed QB gurus and ex gurus let em earn their keep and turn water nto whine , the lazy Fucks ain't done nothing else.

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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:59 pm

pup wrote:
CleSportsTruth wrote:
pup wrote:It doesn't matter what you have around him.

Colt McCoy ain't winning 7 games next year.


Alex Smith says Hi. You add Richardson, Floyd or Hill and an RT, then yes, 7-9 is VERY doable.


1. Alex Smith had the talent and skills to be the #1 overall pick.

2. Colt McCoy has the talent and skills to be almost given a vote of confidence when his only competition is a career backup.

3. Man, you guys got this NFL thing down pat. All the suck we have seen right in front of our eyes, and all this time we were only Richardson, Floyd and a RT away.


1. He was the #1 pick, sure. Was he actually worthy of it? No, no chance.

2. Agreed. But how much better, given roughly equal supporting casts, is Smith really?

3. You miss the point. We all know that w/o a QB, they'll never be a playoff team or contender. But they could HIDE Colt well enough, ala Jax w/ David Garrard, with Richardson, etc., to win 7 games. That's the issue.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:11 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:Which brings up two things. One, do H+H survive another 5-11 or worse yr. w/ Lerner? Esp. if there are multiple blackouts?

Two, if we don't like Barkley, what's the point in tanking?


1. I don't know. Lerner has made Holmgren de facto Owner, evidenced by the fact that Holmgren attends all the Owner's Meetings, not Randy. So I'd say I'm 90% sure that Holmgren survives, and if he survives so does Heckert. Shurmur, on the other hand, might not. I think that if they're really bad again, Shurmur gets sacrificed and Holmgren comes down from his tower to do the job himself.

2. Because we don't know yet who next year's RG3 will be. Google "2012 NFL Mock Draft" and narrow the dates to before the 2011 NCAA season - no one even has RG3 in the 1st round, much less #2 overall (I did find one that had Nick Foles at #6 overall though). And Landry Jones and Matt Barkley still have a season to make believers out of us.

If the Browns start off bad, then I'm all for at least being in position to get what we want/need and not have to worry about Heckgren fucking it up. Just look to the Colts to see how effective the strategy can be. They're basically only bad twice in a 14 year span, but both time they're bad, they're REALLY bad - bad enough to net themselves 2 Franchise QB's (probably).

6-10 gets you nothing.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Govbarney » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:54 pm

Watched Richardson Pro-Day on ESPN U, nothing to really write home about, his 40 time was a tad slower then advertised but nothing alarming.
I came away impressed with his interviews to ESPN, came off humble, and intelligent. But I suppose that can be coached.

One comedic part was when he nailed a Browns Scout after finishing a cone drill.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby pup » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:06 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:
pup wrote:
CleSportsTruth wrote:
pup wrote:It doesn't matter what you have around him.

Colt McCoy ain't winning 7 games next year.


Alex Smith says Hi. You add Richardson, Floyd or Hill and an RT, then yes, 7-9 is VERY doable.


1. Alex Smith had the talent and skills to be the #1 overall pick.

2. Colt McCoy has the talent and skills to be almost given a vote of confidence when his only competition is a career backup.

3. Man, you guys got this NFL thing down pat. All the suck we have seen right in front of our eyes, and all this time we were only Richardson, Floyd and a RT away.


1. He was the #1 pick, sure. Was he actually worthy of it? No, no chance.

2. Agreed. But how much better, given roughly equal supporting casts, is Smith really?

3. You miss the point. We all know that w/o a QB, they'll never be a playoff team or contender. But they could HIDE Colt well enough, ala Jax w/ David Garrard, with Richardson, etc., to win 7 games. That's the issue.


Do we really have to go through this exercise?

Alex Smith, on equal teams, is still a much more talented QB than Colt McCoy. that is why one gets picked #1 and one gets picked #127 (?). That talent does not alway win out and people bust all the time, but as far as talent goes it is not even close. Alex Smith is better at each and every thing you would use to evaluate a QB than Colt is.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:18 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
CleSportsTruth wrote:Which brings up two things. One, do H+H survive another 5-11 or worse yr. w/ Lerner? Esp. if there are multiple blackouts?

Two, if we don't like Barkley, what's the point in tanking?


1. I don't know. Lerner has made Holmgren de facto Owner, evidenced by the fact that Holmgren attends all the Owner's Meetings, not Randy. So I'd say I'm 90% sure that Holmgren survives, and if he survives so does Heckert. Shurmur, on the other hand, might not. I think that if they're really bad again, Shurmur gets sacrificed and Holmgren comes down from his tower to do the job himself.

2. Because we don't know yet who next year's RG3 will be. Google "2012 NFL Mock Draft" and narrow the dates to before the 2011 NCAA season - no one even has RG3 in the 1st round, much less #2 overall (I did find one that had Nick Foles at #6 overall though). And Landry Jones and Matt Barkley still have a season to make believers out of us.

If the Browns start off bad, then I'm all for at least being in position to get what we want/need and not have to worry about Heckgren fucking it up. Just look to the Colts to see how effective the strategy can be. They're basically only bad twice in a 14 year span, but both time they're bad, they're REALLY bad - bad enough to net themselves 2 Franchise QB's (probably).

6-10 gets you nothing.


1. Tend to agree, but 3-4 gms. with 15-20k empties could change that.

2. True, but as an avid CFB fan, I can't think of anyone who I think COULD explode on the scene. Looking at THIS 2013 mock, only Tyler Wilson intrigues me. I want NO PART of Landry Jones- overrated system guy- and again, Barkley's too shrimpy for me.

Anyway, if you want the tank strategy, DO NOT pick offensive guys, other than RT, early on. If you do, hello 7-9.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby CleSportsTruth » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:20 pm

Govbarney wrote:Watched Richardson Pro-Day on ESPN U, nothing to really write home about, his 40 time was a tad slower then advertised but nothing alarming.
I came away impressed with his interviews to ESPN, came off humble, and intelligent. But I suppose that can be coached.

One comedic part was when he nailed a Browns Scout after finishing a cone drill.


At 70% too, supposedly. At 100%, he's likely in the 4.4's, if not 4.3's.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:29 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:2. True, but as an avid CFB fan, I can't think of anyone who I think COULD explode on the scene. Looking at THIS 2013 mock, only Tyler Wilson intrigues me. I want NO PART of Landry Jones- overrated system guy- and again, Barkley's too shrimpy for me.

Anyway, if you want the tank strategy, DO NOT pick offensive guys, other than RT, early on. If you do, hello 7-9.


Tyler Wilson is exactly the kind of guy I'm talking about. Let's say he tears it up next year - I can easily see him passing up stupid Barkley. He's got enough potential that you'd have to be #1 overall to get him (if he lights it up).

And please don't think I want them to tank NOW. No, do whatever you can to make the team as good as it can be. I want the Browns to win. I only support the tank theory if they start out, say, 1-4 and the season is already over. THAT'S when winning becomes counter-productive to long-term results.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:30 pm

CleSportsTruth wrote:
Govbarney wrote:Watched Richardson Pro-Day on ESPN U, nothing to really write home about, his 40 time was a tad slower then advertised but nothing alarming.
I came away impressed with his interviews to ESPN, came off humble, and intelligent. But I suppose that can be coached.

One comedic part was when he nailed a Browns Scout after finishing a cone drill.


At 70% too, supposedly. At 100%, he's likely in the 4.4's, if not 4.3's.



NFW is TR a 4.3 player. Doesn't how that on film.

Has a nice top gear where he won't get run down from behind, but he's not a speed demon. I don't know what he runs, but he's plays mid 4.4's. That's not too shabby, BTW. But he ain't no Bo Jackson.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:37 pm

I don't see any way that Richardson is a 4.3 guy either, and he doesn't need to be.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby jb » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:46 pm

Hikohadon wrote:I don't see any way that Richardson is a 4.3 guy either, and he doesn't need to be.



Yes n no.

He's a very good RB prospect. Maybe best since AP.

But give him 4.3 speed and he's the best in a generation.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Govbarney » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:59 pm

He ran a 4.51 , but his coaches claim he can run 4.43 when 100%.
Also did 23 Bench Press Reps.

For Comparisons sake no RB at this years combine ran faster then a 4.4,


Chris Henry - 4.40
Brandon Jackson - 4.58
Brian Leonard - 4.49
Marshawn Lynch - 4.46
Adrian Peterson -4.40

fastest RB ever is Chris Johnson at 4.24
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:31 pm

Not concerned at all about Richardson's 40 a few weeks after meniscal cleanup. Watch the games as JB said and he has another gear. I liken it to guys going 1st to 3rd in practice vs guys HAVING to get from 1b to 3b in a game situation.

There's an extra gear you can't duplicate in a workout environment. Richardson gets a step and there are few guys that have the speed and strength to bring him down. He gets two steps and it's over.

He's also a complete back. Good at catching he ball, good in blitz pickup (at college level anyway), big enough to anchor and sustain a block (unlike a fidget like LaMichael James/Isaiah Pead who simply can't stand a man up) and he's stronger than hell.

He is the cream of the crop and if the Browns use #4 I'd prefer it be on him as opposed to Tanneyhill there or Blackmon.

4 more weeks of this though. 4 weeks from now it'll be much clearer. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:50 pm

peeker643 wrote:Not concerned at all about Richardson's 40 a few weeks after meniscal cleanup. Watch the games as JB said and he has another gear. I liken it to guys going 1st to 3rd in practice vs guys HAVING to get from 1b to 3b in a game situation.

There's an extra gear you can't duplicate in a workout environment. Richardson gets a step and there are few guys that have the speed and strength to bring him down. He gets two steps and it's over.

He's also a complete back. Good at catching he ball, good in blitz pickup (at college level anyway), big enough to anchor and sustain a block (unlike a fidget like LaMichael James/Isaiah Pead who simply can't stand a man up) and he's stronger than hell.

He is the cream of the crop and if the Browns use #4 I'd prefer it be on him as opposed to Tanneyhill there or Blackmon.

4 more weeks of this though. 4 weeks from now it'll be much clearer. ;-) ;) :wink:


SD:

The Browns scouted both Tanny and Richardson at the same time , but I ask ya whats more impressive a 6'4' 225 QB running a 4.6 or a running back running the prerequisite 4.5 .

Value wise I say take the QB who can throw in a passing league ..

By the time the draft gets here , he;ll no longer be a reach ,, but teams will have to use to trade up to three by then to draft him.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d ... ce=dlvr.it

Put me down for the big athletic QB Cam newton type clone , who needs some seasoning an just happens to be white .

Project this kid in next years College draft , and Barkley ends up carrying his luggage

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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:00 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Not concerned at all about Richardson's 40 a few weeks after meniscal cleanup. Watch the games as JB said and he has another gear. I liken it to guys going 1st to 3rd in practice vs guys HAVING to get from 1b to 3b in a game situation.

There's an extra gear you can't duplicate in a workout environment. Richardson gets a step and there are few guys that have the speed and strength to bring him down. He gets two steps and it's over.

He's also a complete back. Good at catching he ball, good in blitz pickup (at college level anyway), big enough to anchor and sustain a block (unlike a fidget like LaMichael James/Isaiah Pead who simply can't stand a man up) and he's stronger than hell.

He is the cream of the crop and if the Browns use #4 I'd prefer it be on him as opposed to Tanneyhill there or Blackmon.

4 more weeks of this though. 4 weeks from now it'll be much clearer. ;-) ;) :wink:


SD:

The Browns scouted both Tanny and Richardson at the same time , but I ask ya whats more impressive a 6'4' 225 QB running a 4.6 or a running back running the prerequisite 4.5 .

Value wise I say take the QB who can throw in a passing league ..

By the time the draft gets here , he;ll no longer be a reach ,, but teams will have to use to trade up to three by then to draft him.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d ... ce=dlvr.it

Put me down for the big athletic QB Cam newton type clone , who needs some seasoning an just happens to be white .

Project this kid in next years College draft , and Barkley ends up carrying his luggage

SoulDawg


Gil Brandt agrees with you, SD:

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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:01 pm

jb wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:I don't see any way that Richardson is a 4.3 guy either, and he doesn't need to be.



Yes n yes.

He's a very good RB prospect. Maybe best since AP.

But give him 4.3 speed and he's the best in a generation.


Fixed (there is nothing I said you disagree with).
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Govbarney » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:02 pm

Doesn't hurt that he was also a stellar running back in a conference with the best Defenses in the College game.
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Re: Draft Prospect Reset

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:10 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:SD:

The Browns scouted both Tanny and Richardson at the same time , but I ask ya whats more impressive a 6'4' 225 QB running a 4.6 or a running back running the prerequisite 4.5 .

Value wise I say take the QB who can throw in a passing league ..

By the time the draft gets here , he;ll no longer be a reach ,, but teams will have to use to trade up to three by then to draft him.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d ... ce=dlvr.it

Put me down for the big athletic QB Cam newton type clone , who needs some seasoning an just happens to be white .

Project this kid in next years College draft , and Barkley ends up carrying his luggage

SoulDawg


This is certainly a lot warmer on him for you than a month ago.

I like his size. I like his athletic ability.

I don't like his passing so much. His arm is plenty strong enough, but hardly a cannon. His accuracy is erratic. His decision-making seems spotty.

There are a lot of guys in the NFL that are 6'4, 225 that run a 4.6. That doesn't mean they should be QB's.

Cam was so successful last year due to his passing ability, much more so than his running. I worry about Tannehill ever getting to even Cam's level, much less the Sooper-Elite.
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