Cavs v Piss-tons (Irving putting on a 4th Q clinic)

[Larvell Blanks]

If TT turns into AV, that's great. I don't want both those guys on the floor together.

Please go back and read again, I said when/IF they get a PF that he'll be a 7th/8th guy in the rotation. Being the starting PF (minus Jamo) on a depleted young team is like saying that Ken Dorsey was starting QB material when the other 2 in front of him went down.


Is his potential to be that type of defensive player the same as his potential to add a move or two to his O?


My example of Jamo being undersized is fair seeing that the C's threw over his head to Garnett all 6 games of that series. You believe that teams will not do the same to Thompson or will his outstanding jumping ability negate all that? 6'9" is undersized vs 6'11" and up vets who know the game.


When did Pts per 10 mins become a meaningful statistic or a stat at all? Shit, Vinny Johnson could light it up during his time in the ball game, but there was a reason his minutes were limited. Probably a simlar reason why TT isn't seeing 25-30 mins+


I'm not seeing the next Nowitzke by any means, but I like the kid's combination of quickness, length, ability to jump quickly and high, and work ethic. He looks lost and awkward, but somehow he's 4th in points per minute even though I'm convinced he doesn't know what hand he's going to shoot with until he releases the ball. I could be wrong on this, but he'll be more than a 7th/8th man once the rebuild is complete.

And Ara Parsegean wished his players had all of the above like that Ruettegar kid but what did that get Rudy. One meaningless play on speacial teams, a gift sack, and GomeZ Addams' kid to portray him. If TT is lucky, the Fresh Prince's kid can play him in the next b-ball movie regarding those who have a great work ethic but limited talent.


My head hurts now

[Orenthal]

I love it when point scored per ten minutes is more meaningful THAN SHOOTING 42% FROM THE FIELD

Why have I been reading your dumb ass in this thread?

Fuckin eh, I'm done, I promise

Don't you have Sausha Kaun to be monitoring or something?

Dude even Austin Carr knows about floor balance and spacing. I can't wait to see KI or any wing player develop with Andy and TT on the floor. My CYO coach could draw up the defense...

[Prosecutor]

Please go back and read again, I said when/IF they get a PF that he'll be a 7th/8th guy in the rotation.

Understood. My response was to ask where they will get a better PF than Thompson when they desparately need starters to replace Casspi, who sucks, and Parker, who's toast. They'll use their top draft pick to fill one of those spots. NBA DraftExpress has either a SF or a SG rated 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, and 16 as of right now. I can't believe the Cavs would use their top pick, probably in the 8-12 range, on a PF when they just used the #4 to get Thompson and the need is so great at two other positions.

If you think they'll use their cap space to target a free agent PF to make sure TT doesn't start, please let me know who this player might be.

As much as it might pain some people, the Cavs have commited to TT. No way they're going to write him off as just an "energy guy" off the bench at age 20.


My example of Jamo being undersized is fair seeing that the C's threw over his head to Garnett all 6 games of that series. You believe that teams will not do the same to Thompson or will his outstanding jumping ability negate all that? 6'9" is undersized vs 6'11" and up vets who know the game.

When I see opponents lobbing passes over TT's head because he's too short and doesn't jump well enough to stop them, I'll buy you a beer.


When did Pts per 10 mins become a meaningful statistic or a stat at all? Shit, Vinny Johnson could light it up during his time in the ball game, but there was a reason his minutes were limited. Probably a simlar reason why TT isn't seeing 25-30 mins+

I could have made it points per minute, but then the numbers would be decimals. Multiplying by 10 just puts it in better perspective for comparison purposes. I thought that would be obvious.

One reason his FG percentage is low is because he gets a lot of offensive rebounds in traffic and then gets his shot blocked when he tries to force it back up. Scott is working with him on passing the ball out to the perimeter when he's trapped under the backboard or doesn't have a clear path to the rim. As he learns to do this his shooting percentage should improve.

[e0y2e3]

Can you switch to blue Pros, it'll make a prettier experience when I scroll over you.

Thanks in advance,

Your BFF4E

[leadpipe]

He's not shooting 40% for any other reason than...he can't shoot.

He's shooting 40% from within 8 feet of the bucket.

And he's about the same from the line.

Two classic examples in one thread - examples of not watching the GD game, apparently.

Cause I don't give a rats ass what calculator gets you points per minute, or if his old high school coach phoned you and said he was gonna score, anyone watching the games, with half a brain can see his entire offensive skillset is putbacks.

So to summarize, we got one guy who thinks a guy who's been playing back to the basket in TV Land, for all of us to see the past two years is comparable to Kevin Love - and another who has apparently watched Tristan Thompson nearly every God Damned night and can't figure out he's awful offensively, and furthermore that same preson can't comprehend why you can't have him and a player just like him on the court at the same time.

And people think I'm the asshole for the 90% rule and refusing to believe some guys actually watch the games.

Christ on a Pony.

[Orenthal]

File this under I watched the game...

Miami's defensive rotations are sick.

[e0y2e3]

Yep.

Same thing they did to Rose last year, when they want to stop the P&R it dies and the Knicks offense right now is....... the high P&R. They had nothing to do after it was taken away.

[peeker643]

File this under I watched the game...

Miami's defensive rotations are sick.

That is a well-oiled machine.

My only hope (and it may not be enough) is that Dwyane Wade is prone to falling and rolling ankles. Short of one of the Big 3 going down that team is winning the title this season.

[e0y2e3]

OKC matches up better than you would think.

A coach as creative as Carlisle with an elite talent could cause them some issues.

But yeah, unless the Bulls get lucky they walk through the East and then they are for sure the favorite against everyone from the West but OKC who I would put them even against.

[Prosecutor]

He's not shooting 40% for any other reason than...he can't shoot.

He's shooting 40% from within 8 feet of the bucket. And he's about the same from the line.

Here are the adjusted shooting percentages for the Cavs who get minutes:

KI 52%
AV 51
Gee 50
Boobie 47
Casspi 47
Jamo 47
TT 43
Sessions 42

Obviously these numbers don't tell the whole story. Anybody think Casspi and Jamison are equal offensively?

43% is low, I agree, but with a little experience and better shot selection I can see him getting up to the 47 area, which is acceptable considering what he brings in rebounding and defense.

Clearly some people have made up their minds that he sucks offensively and always will, and nothing will convince them otherwise. I'm not one of them. I think he's got a chance to be a 15 and 12 guy along with being named to the NBA All-Defensive team when his career peaks out. If somebody else wants to believe his offensive skills have peaked at this point in his career, fine with me. One thing I've learned from this board is that nobody ever changes their mind on anything once they've formed an opinion.

And people think I'm the asshole for the 90% rule and refusing to believe some guys actually watch the games.

Speaking only for myself, I don't think you're the asshole on this board, although you certainly try.

[jb]

Everyone says TT is a really nice and coachable kid. So it is almost a certainty that with his athleticism he'll be coached up and improve a lot in an off season.




















Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

[e0y2e3]

Funniest part is, he's not even a good defender yet. He's okay and jumps high, but has a shit ton to learn on that side of the ball too.

[Larvell Blanks]

Pros, this will sum it up



As the overall 4th pick in the draft we should not be relying on what his potential COULD be. As the 4th overall he should have an established skill and needs to improve in other areas. Hard working and coachable should be picked in the 2nd round or on a deep team.


In a league that doesn't have 6 too many teams, TT would be competing w/ M.L. Carr's record of towel waving.

[e0y2e3]

There is a difficult balance between potential and skills.

That said, shooting (up to 42.7%!!!) from the field is just inexcusable for any front court player anywhere unless you are someone like Beasley playing a true Combo Four.

[Prosecutor]

Pros, this will sum it up

As the overall 4th pick in the draft we should not be relying on what his potential COULD be. As the 4th overall he should have an established skill and needs to improve in other areas. Hard working and coachable should be picked in the 2nd round or on a deep team.

In a league that doesn't have 6 too many teams, TT would be competing w/ M.L. Carr's record of towel waving.

Well said, my man.

I think the Cavs were looking more for a player with an upside than a guy with "an established skill". Otherwise they would have drafted someone like Jimmer Fredette. What player with an established skill would you have wanted them to take at #4?

Yes, Thompson is hard-working and coachable. He's quick, strong, and athletic and can put his hand above the box. He's already demonstrated the ability to block shots, get offensive boards at nearly the same rate as Andy, and force missed shots without fouling. His offensive game is limited, but after watching him blow by Kaman for that two-handed dunk the other night, I can't believe his offensive potential is zero, especially since he's already 4th on the team in points per minute.

For those who say this 20-year-old has maxed out his potential after 31 NBA games and can't possibly improve with coaching and experience, I respectfully disagree.

[pup]

I don't know shit from shinola in this argument.

But I doubt blowing by Chris Kaman is really going to sway too many opinions for offensive upside.

[e0y2e3]

Wait, he used blowing by Chris Kamen as an example of something/anything????

Wow.

[Larvell Blanks]

I don't know shit from shinola in this argument.

But I doubt blowing by Chris Kaman is really going to sway too many opinions for offensive upside.

[Larvell Blanks]

Well said, my man.

I think the Cavs were looking more for a player with an upside than a guy with "an established skill". Otherwise they would have drafted someone like Jimmer Fredette. What player with an established skill would you have wanted them to take at #4?

Yes, Thompson is hard-working and coachable. He's quick, strong, and athletic and can put his hand above the box. He's already demonstrated the ability to block shots, get offensive boards at nearly the same rate as Andy, and force missed shots without fouling. His offensive game is limited, but after watching him blow by Kaman for that two-handed dunk the other night, I can't believe his offensive potential is zero, especially since he's already 4th on the team in points per minute.

For those who say this 20-year-old has maxed out his potential after 31 NBA games and can't possibly improve with coaching and experience, I respectfully disagree.

TEAMS THAT HAVE THE AMOUNT OF TALENT THE CAVS HAVE SHOULD NOT BLOW A 4TH OVERALL PICK ON UPSIDE.

[Orenthal]

Especially when Jonas seemed to have much more upside, and I wasn't even sold on the big Lith...

[e0y2e3]

They had to pick someone with upside here. Unfortunately the guy that picked was the third highest upside prospect (Biyombo and Vala) available. And Vala combined skill with upside.

It was the dumbest draft pick possible short of drafting Jimmer or Knight to go with Kyrie.

[jb]

Well said, my man.

I think the Cavs were looking more for a player with an upside than a guy with "an established skill". Otherwise they would have drafted someone like Jimmer Fredette. What player with an established skill would you have wanted them to take at #4?

Yes, Thompson is hard-working and coachable. He's quick, strong, and athletic and can put his hand above the box. He's already demonstrated the ability to block shots, get offensive boards at nearly the same rate as Andy, and force missed shots without fouling. His offensive game is limited, but after watching him blow by Kaman for that two-handed dunk the other night, I can't believe his offensive potential is zero, especially since he's already 4th on the team in points per minute.

For those who say this 20-year-old has maxed out his potential after 31 NBA games and can't possibly improve with coaching and experience, I respectfully disagree.

TEAMS THAT HAVE THE AMOUNT OF TALENT THE CAVS HAVE SHOULD NOT BLOW A 4TH OVERALL PICK ON UPSIDE.

I don't have a problem with upside.

I have a problem with no discernible basketball skills after a season at a major US college program.

[Prosecutor]

I have a problem with no discernible basketball skills after a season at a major US college program.

No discernable basketball skills? Maybe you should look a little harder, jb.

According to ESPN, Thompson is 6th among all NBA players in offensive rebounds per minute. Varajao is 5th. Enes Kanter, by the way, is 2nd. I don't know - does offensive rebounding count as a "basketball skill". Or do you put it in the same category as pre-game dunking - interesting but not relevant to the outcome of the game?

Not impressed? How about shot blocking? TT is blocking 3.00 shots per 48 minutes, which puts him 2nd among NBA power forwards and 4th among all players. Somebody named Dwight Howard is 5th at 2.76.

Now hold on, before folks start shooting themselves in the fucking face, let me say I'm not claiming TT is a better shot blocker than Dewey, even though he does it more frequently. Dewey's been around a while and guys know not to challenge him, whereas they haven't learned to look out for TT yet. I'm just saying that if shot blocking, and altering shots, which shot blockers tend to do, qualifies as a basketball skill, then TT has it.

Defensive rebounding? Not sure if that's a skill or not, but TT only ranks 68th out of the 339 players Hollinger lists. Dirk Nowitzke is 63rd, David Lee is 69th. He's doing OK, but could improve, IMO.

Hollinger combines all his numbers into an overall rating he calls PER, which I'm sure we're all familiar with. TT is ranked 185 out of 339, or slightly below average. Obviously his FG shooting, free throw shooting, and lack of 3-point shots and assists pull him down. I think the hatred for TT on this board is due mainly to the fact that he is a #4 pick with obvious offensive shortcomings, which obscure the positive things he does. He's already among the top 10 offensive rebounders and shot blockers in the league after 25 pro games. But overall he's an average player, and fans wanted more from a #4 pick.

I think his biggest value down the road in addition to offensive rebounding will be simply forcing opponents to miss shots. IMO, he does a nice job of moving his feet to keep his body in front of the shooter, then getting a hand up to challenge the shot and force a miss. Unfortunately, they don't keep stats on that. But I'll be watching closely every time he's isolated and the opponent tries to score on him.

[e0y2e3]

Tristan Thompson: +/- is second worst on the team at -69, Cavs are scoring at 93 point per hundred and are giving up 104 points per hundred and his net adj is fourth worst on the team, ahead of only Eyenga, Harangody and Erden and just behind Hollins. It also should be noted TT has played 28% of the Cavs minutes whereas none of the other net +/- sucks have played more than 10%.

None of those stats are biblical, but ole cherry pick Pros is conveniently ignoring his old go-to.

Also, of the Cavs 20 top used 5 man units, Thompson appears in 7 of them. Of those 7 three have an eFG% over 40% (no way this could inflate offensive boards) with a his of.... 43%!!!!

MONSTER

At least his limited minutes per game can be extrapolated out to 48 minutes (who in the fuck uses this measure, 36 is far more realistic and the standard) to prove him a top five shot blocker in the league!!!

I know, I swore I wasn't reading you anymore, but I just can't take the stupidity. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go shoot myself in the face so that I can remove the scars of reading one of your top five all time dumbest posts.

[e0y2e3]

Also, TT has an FG% of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 34.5% from 3-9 feet, 23.5% from 10-15. HOLY FUCKITTY FUCK.

Also, he only attempts half of his field goals at the rim where he has a whopping 55% FG%, which is matched by most quality PGs.

Since you don't watch the games and want stats Pros, we can keep going.

Lastly, if you want to look at fucking rebounding stats please look at ORR, DRR and TRR, which is the rebounds a player gets while on the floor out of total rebounds available. All of which with TT show as "meh!!" "sample size" and "bad shooting creates offensive rebounds!!"

[HoodooMan]

Also, TT has an FG% of !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 34.5% from 3-9 feet

That's the most emphatic "of" in the history of the world.

[Prosecutor]

Now who's writing novellas and using +/- stats to support his take? Well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Of all the Cavs' 5-man combinations, four of the top seven, including #1, include Thompson.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=5&season=22011&split=9&team=Cavaliers

Get him out of there, he's killing us.

[e0y2e3]

I used your language to make a point you would understand dumb fuck. Of course your answer was sniping a bunch of low minute five man rotations.

WAR: HAVING NO IDEA HOW TO READ NUMBERS!!!!

[Orenthal]

Dude had a monster Rising Stars game. Fuck just being in a game called "Rising Stars" is enough for me, and no I didn't watch it or look at the box score.

[e0y2e3]

Ya know, I can't wait for Sullinger's 18 point first round in the 2016 three point contest. It's going to make Buckeye Nation proud.

[e0y2e3]

I'm sorry, I can't wait for Sullinger to win the three point contest. It's going to make Buckeye Nation proud.

[Larvell Blanks]

When's the last time a Cavs-Pistons game thread actually took up 3 pages, that should be the bigger accomplishment here.

[Prosecutor]

Looking over those 5-man +/- numbers, Alonzo Gee is in 15 of the top 17. Casspi is in 2 of the top 17.

WTF Byron?

[Orenthal]

Ya know, I can't wait for Sullinger's 18 point first round in the 2016 three point contest. It's going to make Buckeye Nation proud.

Ha! I sent that to my 5 followers on Twitter. I have twice the audience on that platform...

Sully's shot isn't all leg or arms though that is for damn sure. Quite the center of gravity on that boy...

[e0y2e3]

Just looked this up for shits and giggles, in one year at UCLA Love attempted 82 3s, Sullinger has attempted 12 and 27 in two years.

SAME PLAYER

[statmasta]

Steve Kerr just compared Jared Sullinger to Kevin Love.

But what does he know, he was just an NBA General Manager. Some random message board poster is smarter than a former NBA GM.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

SMH @ THE DIABOLICAL HATER.

[e0y2e3]

If Jared Sullinger ever makes 50 threes in a season I'll fucking stop posting here for good.

Watch The Games

[statmasta]

If Jared Sullinger ever makes 50 threes in a season I'll fucking stop posting here for good.

Watch The Games

An NBA GM watched the games and saw a player similar to Kevin Love.

end of discussion

[Cerebral_DownTime]

This is not going to end well.

[Orenthal]

Woah woah woah one is black one is white. Done

[e0y2e3]

You are the dumbest fucking cunt I have ever seen.

Again, conceptually the idea that both Sullinger and Love are not very athletic undersized dudes that play basketball gives them some overlap.

Again, in a single year of college ball Love took more three attempts than Sullinger has in two years, because Love is a face up basketball player whereas Sullinger is a back to the basket guy.

Watch. The. Fucking. Games.

[jb]

If TT turns into AV, that's great.

Didn't we get SSB as a throw in afterthought on another deal?

[peeker643]

If TT turns into AV, that's great.

Didn't we get SSB as a throw in afterthought on another deal?

Varejao came with Gooden from Orlando for Tony Battie and a couple 2nd rounders

[statmasta]

You are the dumbest fucking cunt I have ever seen.

Again, conceptually the idea that both Sullinger and Love are not very athletic undersized dudes that play basketball gives them some overlap.

Again, in a single year of college ball Love took more three attempts than Sullinger has in two years, because Love is a face up basketball player whereas Sullinger is a back to the basket guy.

Watch. The. Fucking. Games.

Agreed. You don't read very well. That's what my point was. My point was also that Sullinger needs to change his game to be more like Love's, and that he has the skill to do so.

A former NBA GM agrees with me.

[e0y2e3]

You have never watched Kevin Love play basketball and you are too fucking stupid to seperate your dick from your ass.

This is the only explanation of your continuing to pretend like Jared Sullinger is going to end up a three point contest winning stretch four.

[statmasta]

You have never watched Kevin Love play basketball and you are too fucking stupid to seperate your dick from your ass.

This is the only explanation of your continuing to pretend like Jared Sullinger is going to end up a three point contest winning stretch four.

I never said he will become a 3pt shooter, I said he should. He needs to change his game, and I think he has the skills to play that way.

You still cannot read at all. Elementary school children read better than you do.

And apparently Steve Kerr hasn't watched Kevin Love play either. It's a totally legitimate comparison. But have fun raging some more about this.

[e0y2e3]

Again, there is a very limited comp between their games, that being that they aren't the most athletic people and aren't ideally sized.

That is it.

Kevin Love has been a face-up player his entire life, because it is his game. Sullinger has been a back to basket guy his entire life, because it is his game.

You are just a fucking moron who hasn't watched Kevin Love play basketball though.

[statmasta]

Again, there is a very limited comp between their games, that being that they aren't the most athletic people and aren't ideally sized.

That is it.

Kevin Love has been a face-up player his entire life, because it is his game. Sullinger has been a back to basket guy his entire life, because it is his game.

You are just a fucking moron who hasn't watched Kevin Love play basketball though.

LOL right

The guy whose opinion coincides with that of a former NBA GM is the fucking moron. A guy who was paid millions of dollars to evaluate talent agrees with me, not you.

LOL You're so dense.

[e0y2e3]

If anyone in this actual draft thought for five seconds Jared Sullinger was going to magically completely change his game and become Kevin Love he would go #1 overall, he is not and will not because he isn't fucking Kevin Love (again, probably the single most unique player in the NBA).

I'm glad Steve Kerr (who was fired and is now a TV talking head) stated at some point that Sullinger and Love are both unathletic PFs and that has you delusionally pretending like you are right.

Good for you.

Watch. The. Fucking. Games.