Kipers Mock 2.0

[peeker643]

We're using comparable height and weight plus college rushing stats as our basis for measuring pure athletic ability? OK. Both the Eagles and Browns would have been better off with Tyrod Taylor

[bookelly]

I don't see what a the fuss is about re: trade up or not. We'll have a pretty clear picture after free agency which teams are looking at RG3. If the Fin's and the Skin's don't lock up QB's before the draft, then we can start talking about trading up.

Hell, we could grab Kolb and make this whole discussion moot. Tho I think Occupy Berea would be a real possibility.

[SoulDawg74]

I don't see what a the fuss is about re: trade up or not. We'll have a pretty clear picture after free agency which teams are looking at RG3. If the Fin's and the Skin's don't lock up QB's before the draft, then we can start talking about trading up.

Hell, we could grab Kolb and make this whole discussion moot. Tho I think Occupy Berea would be a real possibility.

SD:

after we sign Colts sister Kolb and they go shopping at Victoria secrets and do all the things girls do , then what do we do , because we still sure as fuck won't have a QB.


SoulDawg

[SoulDawg74]

We're using comparable height and weight plus college rushing stats as our basis for measuring pure athletic ability? OK. Both the Eagles and Browns would have been better off with Tyrod Taylor

SD:

Yet another reason letting go of Vickers and wasting a pick on Marecic was so unapealing .

with two picks in the fourth after bypassing QB early in the draft Taylor should have been the choice , but that was when the forked tongue devil who now wants QB competition didn't want QB competition hampering his pet monkey .


SoulDawg

[peeker643]

I don't see what a the fuss is about re: trade up or not. We'll have a pretty clear picture after free agency which teams are looking at RG3. If the Fin's and the Skin's don't lock up QB's before the draft, then we can start talking about trading up.

Hell, we could grab Kolb and make this whole discussion moot. Tho I think Occupy Berea would be a real possibility.

SD:

after we sign Colts sister Kolb and they go shopping at Victoria secrets and do all the things girls do , then what do we do , because we still sure as fuck won't have a QB.


SoulDawg

Chances are you're right. But you wouldn't be surprised at this point if they ended with Kolb, would ya?

[SoulDawg74]

I don't see what a the fuss is about re: trade up or not. We'll have a pretty clear picture after free agency which teams are looking at RG3. If the Fin's and the Skin's don't lock up QB's before the draft, then we can start talking about trading up.

Hell, we could grab Kolb and make this whole discussion moot. Tho I think Occupy Berea would be a real possibility.

SD:

after we sign Colts sister Kolb and they go shopping at Victoria secrets and do all the things girls do , then what do we do , because we still sure as fuck won't have a QB.


SoulDawg

Chances are you're right. But you wouldn't be surprised at this point if they ended with Kolb, would ya?

SD:

doubt they could sell that shit sandwich on its own merit to Randy even warmed up with garnish .

They want to sign Kolb and draft RG3 and revamp the QB position and trade colt for a six pack and a bolgna sandwich or even party favors for the parking lot attendant then they could talk .

But yes prior to Randy's speech I would not have been a bit surprised by their arrogant continued stoopidity , because the snake head is still in place and it starts at the top .

But Randy was clear , everyone gets a pass , we won't fire anybody "NOW" Mulligans for all

We won't fix the blame we will fix the problem and do what the Rats and Inbred did with their kordell and E Boller virus problems ,

Flush that shit down the drain and draft a franchise pick .

Thats it thats all .

"""Course I ain't no fancy QB guru or nothing and i don't tell those guys what to do or nothing """

{snicker]


SoulDawg

[skatingtripods]

Physical tools are great, but does anyone have reservations about Griffin's intelligence and football IQ? Great, he is a fast runner with a rocket arm and tremendous raw potential. But can he avoid the bad reads and bad throws? It's not like this cat has faced too many NFL players on defense, seeing as how there aren't many coming out of the B12.

I get LP's point about the 2012 NFL and 100% agree with it. That definitely gives Griffin more draft value than if, say, he were in the 2000 draft class. Maybe even as recent as 2007 or 2008. There's no denying it's a QB-driven league that caters to the offense.

I'm just worried about things with Griffin. Playing in the Cleveland winter. Running an NFL offense instead of that fast paced, hurry-up spread he ran in college. Reading the defenses of two of the best defenses in the NFL, and don't kid yourselves, they'll both keep reloading as they get older. Their front offices are too good not to.

I guess my overall point is just that you can't screw this pick up. It has to be a home run at whatever position the player you take plays. Griffin could be a star or just be some guy. I don't think it's the same way with some of the other guys slotted to go around the Browns pick.

[jerryroche]

Question 1: Do Pat Shurmur and the Browns have the gonads to draft Robert Griffin III as a spread quarterback and belay their hopes of building a true West Coast offense? (If they are as sold on the WCO as they contend, Andrew Luck or even Ryan Tannehill might be a better fit.)

Question 2: If the Browns draft Griffin, will he be forced to fit into the WCO, or will Shurmur be smart enough to tailor the offense to Griffin's skill set?

Though there are others in recent NFL history, I use Don Shula as the perfect example of a head coach who molded offensive and defensive schemes to fit his players, rather than trying to integrate players into a set scheme. In the early and mid 1970s, Shula’s Dolphins were a ball-control, run-oriented offense with Larry Csonka and Jim Kiick. Then in 1983, they instantly became an almost totally pass-oriented offense with the addition of Dan Marino. Now, that’s coaching!

Question 3: Is Pat Shurmur another Don Shula? I think we all know the answer to that.

[Hikohadon]

Physical tools are great, but does anyone have reservations about Griffin's intelligence and football IQ? Great, he is a fast runner with a rocket arm and tremendous raw potential. But can he avoid the bad reads and bad throws? It's not like this cat has faced too many NFL players on defense, seeing as how there aren't many coming out of the B12.

What reason might you have to doubt his intelligence and football IQ? Graduating in 3 years with a 3.67 GPA in Political Science and possibly going to Law School? Successfully mastering every offense that he's been asked to run?

Do you worry about the intelligence and football IQ of every QB that we ever draft?

If so, are you then totally against drafting QB's at all b/c you're not certain what you're getting/worried they won't "get it"?

If not, what in the universe makes you question this particular guy's intelligence?

It's like drafting Brett Favre and asking "are we sure he has enough arm strength to handle Cleveland's December winds?" It's like drafting Peyton Manning and wondering if he's tall enough to not get his balls batted down all the time.

There are no certainties. There was always a possibility that Favre couldn't handle northern weather conditions, or that Manning developed a low release point. And there's a possibility that an extremely intelligent guy just won't be able to understand NFL defenses the way genuises like Roethlisberger do.

Personally, when it comes to draft picks, I choose to worry about clear weaknesses that have already revealed themselves rather than speculate on the possibility of failure in areas that most people consider strengths.

[Hikohadon]

I'm just not getting something here.

Is the WCO so incredibly complex and mysterious that only QB's that played it in college are capable of learning it? How is it that these people are even able to run it in college at all? Wasn't it too complex and mysterious? They probably only got recruited because they ran it in High School.

And taking snaps under center... hell, that's like the violin. If you didn't start when you were 5, forget about ever getting good at it. It's way too complicated a thing to just practice and get used to it.

To me, it's all about talent. You get the most talented QB you can. You surround him with the best talent you can. You employ some plays he's familiar with as he learns the system.

Not saying that The Shur will do a good job of bringing a guy like RG3 along, but that's still not a credible reason for me to not try and acquire as much talent as I can.

[noles1]

Maybe it's a poor way of speaking to the primary concern with RG3 being whether he will be able anticipate the NFL throws.

Mayock hit on this as his one critique/concern with Griffin.

I agree with this being a concern and this is where Luck is on a different level with RG3. RG3 has more athleticism which helps make up for the potential gap there. Not to mention if RG3 can grow and show the anticipation at the next level, it's a moot point.

I am not a fan of the intelligence question as it relates to RG3 cause I think it speaks to something else. Needless to say I don't doubt his football IQ but I believe those are two distinctly different points. (incl. 'anticipation of throws here")

[Hikohadon]

Maybe it's a poor way of speaking to the primary concern with RG3 being whether he will be able anticipate the NFL throws.

Mayock hit on this as his one critique/concern with Griffin.

I agree with this being a concern and this is where Luck is on a different level with RG3. RG3 has more athleticism which helps make up for the potential gap there. Not to mention if RG3 can grow and show the anticipation at the next level, it's a moot point.

I am not a fan of the intelligence question as it relates to RG3 cause I think it speaks to something else. Needless to say I don't doubt his football IQ but I believe those are two distinctly different points. (incl. 'anticipation of throws here")

Did he (Mayock) point to specific examples of him not anticipating the throws correctly, or that he just hadn't really done it on the college level so it was still an unknown?

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Everything in the last 3 posts has been pounded into mush and nearly everyone is on the verge of becoming another SD

In fairness tho as mentioned above, the one thing that hasn't been talked about is the Cleveland weather

Usually that subject is paramount in any Browns QB debate but seems to be getting overlooked as regards RG... not that I care

I'm not one who ever paid much attention to it, just saying the lack of hearing it is unusual

So, has he ever played in snow or -20 wind chill?

[noles1]

Maybe it's a poor way of speaking to the primary concern with RG3 being whether he will be able anticipate the NFL throws.

Mayock hit on this as his one critique/concern with Griffin.

I agree with this being a concern and this is where Luck is on a different level with RG3. RG3 has more athleticism which helps make up for the potential gap there. Not to mention if RG3 can grow and show the anticipation at the next level, it's a moot point.

I am not a fan of the intelligence question as it relates to RG3 cause I think it speaks to something else. Needless to say I don't doubt his football IQ but I believe those are two distinctly different points. (incl. 'anticipation of throws here")

Did he (Mayock) point to specific examples of him not anticipating the throws correctly, or that he just hadn't really done it on the college level so it was still an unknown?

Said he has more tape to look at but saw significant difference from soph. to junior year. RG3 improved a tremendous amount in that span. Still Mayock says between the competition and the system anticipating windows is something he hasn't had to do a ton of at Baylor. His accuracy is very good though and Mayock sees him as a great fit in Cleveland with the naked bootleg game.

[skatingtripods]

I am not a fan of the intelligence question as it relates to RG3 cause I think it speaks to something else.

If you think my post was racially motivated, you're mistaken. I'm guessing that's what you're eluding to.

In any event, I just have concerns about the guy breaking down an NFL defense after seeing three years of shitty Big 12 defenses and putting up gaudy numbers.

I think it's a fair concern.

[motherscratcher]

I am not a fan of the intelligence question as it relates to RG3 cause I think it speaks to something else.

If you think my post was racially motivated, you're mistaken. I'm guessing that's what you're eluding to.

In any event, I just have concerns about the guy breaking down an NFL defense after seeing three years of shitty Big 12 defenses and putting up gaudy numbers.

I think it's a fair concern.

But do you have the same concern about Luck? It's not like most of the PAC 12 has been running the 85 Bears D onto the field. You can really say that about pretty much any conference that isn't the SEC and a select few teams from some of the other conferences.

[FUDU]

Anyone who has seen the in depth reporting of what Luck has been handed in terms of responsibility and in regards to an offensive playbook probably doesn't have that concern. Doesn't mean he won't take his lumps at the next level though.

[skatingtripods]

But do you have the same concern about Luck? It's not like most of the PAC 12 has been running the 85 Bears D onto the field. You can really say that about pretty much any conference that isn't the SEC and a select few teams from some of the other conferences.

I do. But not to the same extent because of the offense that Luck runs. I never expected him to be a Brown, so I never gave any thought to him in a WCO like ours. Luck's been a consensus #1 for a while now while RG3 became a scouting sweetheart because he hung impressive numbers and stood out in a conference that saw a year of down QBs. Remember when Landry Jones was supposed to be the next great Big 12 QB? Someone had to take that title when Jones lost it.

I think NCAA defense as a whole is pathetic, so I don't like projecting any QBs. I get that everyone wants to find their franchise QB in the draft. But, I'm just not sure how to project the majority of NCAA QBs.

[noles1]

I am not a fan of the intelligence question as it relates to RG3 cause I think it speaks to something else.

If you think my post was racially motivated, you're mistaken. I'm guessing that's what you're eluding to.

In any event, I just have concerns about the guy breaking down an NFL defense after seeing three years of shitty Big 12 defenses and putting up gaudy numbers.

I think it's a fair concern.

Nah, not necessarily hitting you as you seemed to differentiate. But even you would admit with discussions that have been out there that the distinction in others views are not as distinguished.

[noles1]

Anyone who has seen the in depth reporting of what Luck has been handed in terms of responsibility and in regards to an offensive playbook probably doesn't have that concern. Doesn't mean he won't take his lumps at the next level though.

Exactly. Plus Luck has been been schooled in the 3,5 and 7 step drops since he touched a ball.

It's not to say RG3 can't be just as good but Luck's pro style learning curve is more advanced. That's not really anything anyone else hasn't said already though.

[peeker643]

Still convinced some people confuse reading defenses with going through progressions.

RG3 goes through progressions (although he rarely needs to look further than first or 2nd WR in the French12).

That's still different than dissecting defenses, pointing out blitzes, audibilizing into the correct play, formation, protection, etc and doing it all the time and in a timely, correct manner.

I'm not saying RGIII can't do it. Not at all. Not saying Luck will either.

I'm saying RGIII hasn't done it college and Luck has. Does it mean anything? Just everything or nothing or somewhere in between depending who you talk to on these boards.

[Hikohadon]

And none of it freakin' matters since Luck is a Horsey.

No reason to compare the two, no reason to wonder about Luck, no reason to think about any criteria except RG3 vs. the other draftable guys vs. the Free Agents vs. Colt McCoy.

Luck should be dead to y'all. The draft starts at #2. RG3 is the top QB on the board. Go.

[peeker643]

And none of it freakin' matters since Luck is a Horsey.

No reason to compare the two, no reason to wonder about Luck, no reason to think about any criteria except RG3 vs. the other draftable guys vs. the Free Agents vs. Colt McCoy.

Luck should be dead to y'all. The draft starts at #2. RG3 is the top QB on the board. Go.

Agreed.

And you know what? His ability in that regard will be well vetted in the next month or two. People will know exactly whether he's capable of looking at a defense and deciphering what he's seeing and where he stands on getting a team into the right set and play.

The guys that need to know will know and then the chips will fall where they will. There's no question about that.

So with that said I'm sure we can now stop talking about it and shut up til that Thursday night, right? I'm game for that.

[jb]

RG3 is every bit as intelligent as Luck (and Luck is clearly a smart guy),

Based on.... what?

Desire for political correctness? ;-)

This really is a non-issue. There's intelligence and there is applied football / athletic intelligence. Sometimes they have a connection, other times they are meaningless. Both appear to be smart kids who actually did college work to various degrees. Baylor is a very good school to be sure. Lower 25% of middle 50% SAT is average. So you need to have some chops to get in there. I'm pretty sure they teach evolution, too, even tho they are a sectarian school in Texas. ;-) But Stanford is another level completely, and the Luck family has generations of off the charts smarties. But the only intelligence that matters worth a damn is the ability to read coverages and have the brain tell the arm to do its thing in a nanosecond. So we're not talking the need to be Henry Kissenger in cleats here.

There's no red flags with RG3 given circumstances he controlled unless ur Tree and you want to make shit up. Conventional wisdom suggests a longer learning curve given he played in a one and run French 12 system. Hardly a reason to pass on him. Just a reason for patience, although a flexible HC & OC could be of great help here.

I don't see Vick when I look at RG3. Personally, I see a potentially faster Aaron Rogers with similar build. Kid has a laser that hits back shoulders like W Bush after a cabinet meeting and is savvy mobile, not mobile as option one.

QB's don't get legally hit in the 7 on 7 NFL anymore. His ability to run and health are a non-issue.

Having said all that, Andrew Luck is not comparable to RG3 except to the extent they are quarterbacks and prospects.

[Hikohadon]

RG3 is every bit as intelligent as Luck (and Luck is clearly a smart guy),

Based on.... what?

Desire for political correctness? ;-)

This really is a non-issue. There's intelligence and there is applied football / athletic intelligence. Sometimes they have a connection, other times they are meaningless. Both appear to be smart kids who actually did college work to various degrees. Baylor is a very good school to be sure. Lower 25% of middle 50% SAT is average. So you need to have some chops to get in there. I'm pretty sure they teach evolution, too, even tho they are a sectarian school in Texas. ;-) But Stanford is another level completely, and the Luck family has generations of off the charts smarties. But the only intelligence that matters worth a damn is the ability to read coverages and have the brain tell the arm to do its thing in a nanosecond. So we're not talking the need to be Henry Kissenger in cleats here.

Dear Lord...

How's about the fact that Stanford recruited RG3 to play there (I'm going to assume b/c he was academically cleared to that sooper-elite school)?

Probably the only reason he didn't go to Stanford was that he didn't want to sit behind Luck.

Hopefully they will personally measure both gentlemen's cerebellums at the combine so we can stop with the inane speculation that he's not smart even though every single factual measure would say he is.

Double facepalm:

[jb]

RG3 is every bit as intelligent as Luck (and Luck is clearly a smart guy),

Based on.... what?

Desire for political correctness? ;-)

This really is a non-issue. There's intelligence and there is applied football / athletic intelligence. Sometimes they have a connection, other times they are meaningless. Both appear to be smart kids who actually did college work to various degrees. Baylor is a very good school to be sure. Lower 25% of middle 50% SAT is average. So you need to have some chops to get in there. I'm pretty sure they teach evolution, too, even tho they are a sectarian school in Texas. ;-) But Stanford is another level completely, and the Luck family has generations of off the charts smarties. But the only intelligence that matters worth a damn is the ability to read coverages and have the brain tell the arm to do its thing in a nanosecond. So we're not talking the need to be Henry Kissenger in cleats here.

Dear Lord...

How's about the fact that Stanford recruited RG3 to play there (I'm going to assume b/c he was academically cleared to that sooper-elite school)?

Probably the only reason he didn't go to Stanford was that he didn't want to sit behind Luck.

Hopefully they will personally measure both gentlemen's cerebellums at the combine so we can stop with the inane speculation that he's not smart even though every single factual measure would say he is.

Double facepalm:

He seems very smart indeed.

Meanwhile, Caveman's daddy was a Rhodes Scholar finalist and his grandparents were something like PHD research biologists or something crazy like that.

Really, here's my only points.

RG3 is a very good, possibly great, QB prospect. He indeed seems bright and that isn't a barrier to his success at all.

Meanwhile, Caveman is wicket smart as Eye might say and he's the best QB prospect to come out since Horse face.

You don't have to knock him to prop up RG3 nor does it lesson RG3's prospect status that Luck is in the same draft and is 100% death and taxes sure to go # 1 overall. They aren't compatible prospects to anyone unless your user name rhymes with Coal Frog.

These kids don't need to be connected in any way for them to be their own men.

[Hikohadon]

Luck seems very intelligent. RG3 seems very intelligent. There is no way to categorically measure how smart they are against each other. Any attempt is fruitless, foolish, and, really, who gives a fuck? It seems apparent they're both plenty smart enough. Luck will be a Horsey. Fin.

[peeker643]

Luck seems very intelligent. RG3 seems very intelligent. There is no way to categorically measure how smart they are against each other. Any attempt is fruitless, foolish, and, really, who gives a fuck? It seems apparent they're both plenty smart enough. Luck will be a Horsey. Fin.

Which is why I initailly phrased it in terms of reading defenses.

You might be a terrific driver. But that doesn't mean I'd sponsor or back you in the Daytona 500. Different speeds, ya know? Different skills. The ones you have might translate and they might not. I'd like to know or have as good an idea as possible before dropping millions into the car I was letting you drive.

Does that complete the circle or do you want to continue to argue a point that wasn't initially being argued?

[Hikohadon]

Luck seems very intelligent. RG3 seems very intelligent. There is no way to categorically measure how smart they are against each other. Any attempt is fruitless, foolish, and, really, who gives a fuck? It seems apparent they're both plenty smart enough. Luck will be a Horsey. Fin.

Which is why I initailly phrased it in terms of reading defenses.

You might be a terrific driver. But that doesn't mean I'd sponsor or back you in the Daytona 500. Different speeds, ya know? Different skills. The ones you have might translate and they might not. I'd like to know or have as good an idea as possible before dropping millions into the car I was letting you drive.

Does that complete the circle or do you want to continue to argue a point that wasn't initially being argued?

How's about you (or anyone) answer the question that I've asked: What have you seen that makes you think he can't read Defenses or won't be able to read Defenses at the NFL level?

Is this like the accuracy thing where you say that you watched the Bowl game and thought he was somewhat erratic (which an actual observation of yours that leads to your concern, and is therefore totally valid for you to question)?

Or is it just that it's POSSIBLE that even though he's intelligent he won't be able to read Defenses?

Because OF COURSE that MIGHT be an issue. That might be an issue with ANYONE. Andrew Luck, despite being so "pro ready", MIGHT have an issue with that (I remember another guy named Quinn that was supposedly "pro ready").

But my point is that if there's no prior indication that he struggles with reading Defenses and it clearly seems he has the mental tools to be able to do it, claiming this is a "concern" is, imho, making shit up.

To use your analogy (sort-of), when my daughter finally gets her license, there is a chance that she will pull out of the driveway and slam right into a tree. But if she passes her driving test and seems to drive perfectly well when I'm in the car with her, it would be paranoid of me to tell her "How do I know that you won't run into a tree? Sorry, you can't drive anywhere because I'm concerned you're going to run into a tree."

"Why do you think I'll drive into a tree?"

"Because you might. People have done it before."

"Why do my friends get to drive?"

"Well, their dad has a tractor that they drove around the backyard, so they're more drive-ready."

When you draft a QB (or any player), you have to look at their skills and judge if they would have the ability to drive in the Daytona. You don't get to find out if they CAN first.

[peeker643]

He did miss open guys in the bowl game. But I'm not really worried about that one game. He made enough throws where that's noot a concern. Arm strength isn't a concern.

And I haven't spoken to RGIII or asked him to analyze defenses and give me his pre-snap reads so I rely on people like Mayock and other guys who have watched every play of every game and who rank that as their chief concern.

I'm sorry that's all I have. He won't return my calls and the tape I've sent was returned unopened.

By the way, I never SAW dinosaurs or a Cleveland championship either. I hear both existed. Actually they may have been contemporaries.

Luck seems very intelligent. RG3 seems very intelligent. There is no way to categorically measure how smart they are against each other. Any attempt is fruitless, foolish, and, really, who gives a fuck? It seems apparent they're both plenty smart enough. Luck will be a Horsey. Fin.

Which is why I initailly phrased it in terms of reading defenses.

You might be a terrific driver. But that doesn't mean I'd sponsor or back you in the Daytona 500. Different speeds, ya know? Different skills. The ones you have might translate and they might not. I'd like to know or have as good an idea as possible before dropping millions into the car I was letting you drive.

Does that complete the circle or do you want to continue to argue a point that wasn't initially being argued?

How's about you (or anyone) answer the question that I've asked: What have you seen that makes you think he can't read Defenses or won't be able to read Defenses at the NFL level?

Is this like the accuracy thing where you say that you watched the Bowl game and thought he was somewhat erratic (which an actual observation of yours that leads to your concern, and is therefore totally valid for you to question)?

Or is it just that it's POSSIBLE that even though he's intelligent he won't be able to read Defenses?

Because OF COURSE that MIGHT be an issue. That might be an issue with ANYONE. Andrew Luck, despite being so "pro ready", MIGHT have an issue with that (I remember another guy named Quinn that was supposedly "pro ready").

But my point is that if there's no prior indication that he struggles with reading Defenses and it clearly seems he has the mental tools to be able to do it, claiming this is a "concern" is, imho, making shit up.

To use your analogy (sort-of), when my daughter finally gets her license, there is a chance that she will pull out of the driveway and slam right into a tree. But if she passes her driving test and seems to drive perfectly well when I'm in the car with her, it would be paranoid of me to tell her "How do I know that you won't run into a tree? Sorry, you can't drive anywhere because I'm concerned you're going to run into a tree."

"Why do you think I'll drive into a tree?"

"Because you might. People have done it before."

"Why do my friends get to drive?"

"Well, their dad has a tractor that they drove around the backyard, so they're more drive-ready."

When you draft a QB (or any player), you have to look at their skills and judge if they would have the ability to drive in the Daytona. You don't get to find out if they CAN first.

[Hikohadon]

And I haven't spoken to RGIII or asked him to analyze defenses and give me his pre-snap reads so I rely on people like Mayock and other guys who have watched every play of every game and who rank that as their chief concern.

I'm sorry that's all I have. He won't return my calls and the tape I've sent was returned unopened.

Hey Dickweed, maybe you need to DVR more damn games.

Let's go to the facts of what Mayock said...

NFL Network draft expert Mike Mayock said Wednesday he "loves everything about'' Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III and that the Browns should do everything they can to land him in the draft, including trading up.

"As much as I like Colt McCoy, I still think they have to look to upgrade that position and I think they have to do whatever it takes to get there,'' said Mayock of grabbing Griffin. "If it's me, yeah, I'm looking at that real hard. I want to go get RG3.''

Mayock described Griffin as "one of the most gifted kids in the last several years in this draft.

"Is there some downside to Robert Griffin? Yes, there is. However, you probably have the opportunity to move up and get him if you want him, and to me that's a pretty exciting proposition to build your young franchise around maybe the most exciting player in this year's draft.''

Mayock said that although he loves "everything about the kid,'' he does have one question, and that's where the shred of doubt comes in. "He doesn't throw with anticipation, mostly because he doesn't have to,'' said Mayock. "In that offense, there's minimal footwork and they spread it out so wide. He's got some talented, gifted receivers, and he's got great touch and accuracy in medium and deep (throws). He's got arm strength, he's got athletic ability, he takes hits, but he doesn't anticipate throws.

"He waits until they develop and then throws them. My only question is, will he develop it? You won't find it at the combine. Where I think you'll find it is when teams meet with this kid and they sit down and put the tape on and they break it down with him and talk football and ask him what he sees or doesn't see.''

Despite that, Mayock thinks the Heisman Trophy winner is well worth the two No. 1s.

"I think it will be a hell of a ride,'' he said. "The more tape I put on of this kid, the more fun I have watching him. I was pleasantly surprised by his pocket awareness, his eyes down the field, and his physical toughness is outstanding. He takes a lot of hits and it doesn't bother him. All of those things mean a lot to me. And again, the one "however'' piece of it is just that he's going to have to learn to anticipate and get the ball out of his hands more quickly so he doesn't continue to take those kind of hits.''

Mayock said Griffin brings the one element the Browns really need.

"The bottom line for me is that he's a playmaker,'' said Mayock. "Bottom line, he's a playmaker and that's what this league's all about, especially at that position.''

OK, so Mayock's main concern is the inexperience in his anticipation of where the WR's will be causes him to take unnecessary hits/hold the ball too long, not that he can't read defenses or whatever the hell you were babbling about.

I respect Mayock, and while it's one of his jobs to identify any flaws he can find no matter if they're big or small, if I buy his analysis then I ask myself (if I were GM) if I think that he can learn to anticipate the routes, if he possesses the requisite mental tools to turn the corner, to do this thing he was never asked to do before.

Since we're putting enough stock in Mayock's words that we're now designating this a "concern", are we just ignoring the Mayock words that they should not only take him, but they should move up to take him, that they should "do whatever it takes" to take him?

I think this thing, like every other freakin' thing, has now polarized, and I've been guilty as well. I am now enamored enough with him that I find the "concerns" to be nitpicking. I expect to hear next that someone is concerned that his hands will fall off from frostbite in December because he's from Texas.

But in an intense effort to regain common sense, I acknowledge that there's no way to know that the "concerns" are unjustified (unlikely or not), and that RG3 is a question mark just like every other player in the history of the NFL draft.

[peeker643]

There's plenty of info out there from sources better than Bleacher Report or message boards. An amalgamation of thoughts from various scouting reports, for whatever they are worth.

Like I said somewhere, I'm to the point where I'm fine if they take him. And if they think he's the 2nd coming they can trade up afaic. I'm saying that this isn't football jesus though. That there are questions. Are those questions issues or are they simply a case of not knowing because he didn't have to do it at Baylor.

I do know I can't keep talking about it or listening to it til the end of April. Because it is too polarizing or being pained that way. You get the impression he's either the next Elway/Cam or the next Akili Smith/Leaf. Like it has to be one or the other.

"He waits until they develop and then throws them. My only question is, will he develop it? You won't find it at the combine. Where I think you'll find it is when teams meet with this kid and they sit down and put the tape on and they break it down with him and talk football and ask him what he sees or doesn't see.''

Can play very hurried and frenetic at times, and his pocket presence is average at best. Doesn’t feel blindside pressure well, and takes a lot of hits and sacks and is prone to giving up fumbles because of backside pressure. Can be indecisive in deciding whether to scramble or find someone downfield.

However, he’s a very tough player who will make an attempt to keep his eye level downfield and stare down the gun-barrel even after getting hit a lot early in the game (see Oklahoma). Still inconsistent as an anticipation thrower, but he displays the willingness and ability to make stick throws over the middle of the field. Willingness and ability to attack deep forces defenses to cover 100 x 53.

Capable of throwing with velocity and accuracy when rolling right even when he doesn’t have his feet set or his hips turned to the target. Has more straight line speed than elusiveness – not particularly slippery as a runner.

Griffin is not the biggest player, but there is no doubt that he has toughness. Griffin played through a concussion late in the season, and took a lot of big hits when he ran with the ball. One challenge will be fitting Griffin into a pro-style offense. He rarely took the snap from under center, and will need some development at the pro level. However it shouldn't be a problem as Griffin is extremely intelligent. He is known as a high character individual off the field and a hard worker.

Many will want to compare Griffin to Cam Newton, but this isn't a fair assessment. Griffin is shorter and lacks the bulk that Newton has. He has very thin legs and arms. Griffin is, of course, quicker and more agile, but he doesn't have the body to handle the abuse of scrambling often and absorbing hits.

Griffin will need to continue his ability to read defenses, check out of bad plays, and roll through his progressions. He is a very talented quarterback with some very high upside, but he has to develop and better understand the game. Griffin could be selected as high as No. 2 as the demand for an elite quarterback is at an all-time high.

Mechanics: Prior to his junior season, Griffin adjusted his release, which has helped him improve his accuracy on deeper throws. Griffin's release is over the top, so it's not always the fastest, but not it's not a detriment. Unknown footwork when taking snaps from under center.

Pocket awareness: Staying in the pocket is where Griffin showed marked improvement between his sophomore and junior years. Still, he moves around in the pocket much more than most quarterbacks. In an effort to get a clean throwing window, Griffin will get low and move around. He'll have to cut that down dramatically in the NFL and get the ball out faster. Plays with a lot of toughness. Stayed in the game against TCU this season despite being knocked loopy after making a reception. Takes the vast majority of his snaps from the shotgun.

Field vision: Plays in an offense where he's not asked to make many pre-snap adjustments. Like many college spread quarterbacks, Griffin isn't asked to go through more than a progression or two after the snap. Typically plays only one side of the field.

[motherscratcher]

There's plenty of info out there from sources better than Bleacher Report or message boards. An amalgamation of thoughts from various scouting reports, for whatever they are worth.

Like I said somewhere, I'm to the point where I'm fine if they take him. And if they think he's the 2nd coming they can trade up afaic. I'm saying that this isn't football jesus though. That there are questions. Are those questions issues or are they simply a case of not knowing because he didn't have to do it at Baylor.

I do know I can't keep talking about it or listening to it til the end of April. Because it is too polarizing or being pained that way. You get the impression he's either the next Elway/Cam or the next Akili Smith/Leaf. Like it has to be one or the other.

I don't know Peek. I see a lot of Elway/Cam camp, but I don't really recall seeing much in the way of a Smith/Leaf camp. Seems like everyone likes the kid to some degree. I think the other camp is more of the "we need to build a better team first camp.". This camp invariably moves from OL, to WR, to RB as more pressing needs. Usually in that order.

Not a lot of "RG3 sucks" opinions. More of a "Anyone would suck in this situation" opinion. I don't agree with them, but that's what I'm hearing more than anything else.

[mattvan1]

There's plenty of info out there from sources better than Bleacher Report or message boards. An amalgamation of thoughts from various scouting reports, for whatever they are worth.

Like I said somewhere, I'm to the point where I'm fine if they take him. And if they think he's the 2nd coming they can trade up afaic. I'm saying that this isn't football jesus though. That there are questions. Are those questions issues or are they simply a case of not knowing because he didn't have to do it at Baylor.

I do know I can't keep talking about it or listening to it til the end of April. Because it is too polarizing or being pained that way. You get the impression he's either the next Elway/Cam or the next Akili Smith/Leaf. Like it has to be one or the other.

I don't know Peek. I see a lot of Elway/Cam camp, but I don't really recall seeing much in the way of a Smith/Leaf camp. Seems like everyone likes the kid to some degree. I think the other camp is more of the "we need to build a better team first camp.". This camp invariably moves from OL, to WR, to RB as more pressing needs. Usually in that order.

Not a lot of "RG3 sucks" opinions. More of a "Anyone would suck in this situation" opinion. I don't agree with them, but that's what I'm hearing more than anything else.

Let's not forget that prior to the draft, the "Ryan Leaf Camp" was nothing but positives. Bobby Beathard, considered a pretty savy GM at the time, mortgaged the Charger's future to move up 1 spot.

Bottom line - it's a crapshoot. even the experts get it wrong 50% of the time.

[peeker643]

What Matt said. Easier to see clearly with the perspective of the past behind you. Smith and Leaf were huge news back then. It just happened to be in the newspapers and not on message boards for 24/7/365

[Hikohadon]

It IS a crapshoot. I really like RG3 and THINK he has great potential, but in the end the emphasis for me isn't necessarily RG3 as it is Best-Available-QB-That-Isn't-Colt.

They HAVE to get a new QB, and RG3 seems to be the candidate with by far the most potential.

[SoulDawg74]

What Matt said. Easier to see clearly with the perspective of the past behind you. Smith and Leaf were huge news back then. It just happened to be in the newspapers and not on message boards for 24/7/365

SD:

Hey Peaks try and keep up .

Your arguments are getting as ludicrous as People openly stating they wouldn't take Jim Brown because he wouldn't block which happened back in the 50's

The big busts in football are as a result of teams refusing to do their homework , or being in denile over obvious character flaws , because they are so desperate to fill a position .

The Browns picked Couch because he was the poster White boy they needed to sell tickets , that was their agenda , as it worked because they mechanized the press and touted his stats and size and swore he was perfect .( admittedly I bought the sham myself , because I wanted the too good to be true prospect and the dream to be a reality ) , so much so , I signed off on "THE POLICY" of totally ignoring Mcnabb and blowing off the Williams- Ditka total draft option ,and along with 20 million other dummies was all over Couch.

Then you find out afterwards the 4000 yards of offense were achieved thru a play ground offense where they didn't have a play book , Couch was so stupid he couldn't spell kat if you spotted him the C he was a self centered entitled prick and the pin inserted in his throwing hand from a prior operation was way worst than they allowed .

Couch's armstrength and throwing motion was so bad Palmer wanted the punk Akillme Smith for his offense , but was cowtowed into the company line and was in lockstep over the choice despite the fact he had a rag arm unfit for Palmers deep ball, game ,and would've been a better fit in a WCO although he didn't have the mental acumen to match the smarts required to run that system , after showing he was so stupid he couldn't read a defense any better after six years than he could at 6 months.

Leaf was a rich White Bread ,spoiled mommas boy punk .
The Colts interviewed him and ran , Bobby Beathard OTOH was so desperate for a QB he was all in like a wife who marries a woman beating drunk ,cheating ass, no account bastard ,under the false assumptions they can change him .

The result was the worst recorded epic fail in sports .

until

The Raiduhs drafted Jamarcus Russell , whose goal in life was to get to the NFL , not actually put in work ,

just to have enough cash to support his dumb Black ass in twinkies and cough syrup the rest of his life.

Now

We come back to whence we started .

Now we have the chance to undo the stoopid shot we wasted in 99 and be reborn .

We don't have the #1 pick , and moving up is not an option to take Luck from Indy so our choices are limited if not clear .

we stand pat like Jackasses and watch the Redskins move ahead of us and take the best QB since john Ellway , or we make a move ourself and fix our problem .

But unlike the Jackass Ryan Leaf who spent his College career bangin coeds staying drunk and pissin away his life in self indulgent excess .

I offer

Robert Griffin the third , son of a father and mother who are both army Seargeants , who graduated with a masters in four years from a presitgious religious school in Texas while leading that team to its first conference winning season and becoming the schools first Heisman winner .

This too good to be true ideal student athlete happens to be blessed with World Class olympic sprinters speed , has the reputation amongst his peers and teamates ,as having more football acumen and football smarts than even his 3.67 GPA book smarts reflect , and has what Mayock describes as one of the top five arms maybe of all time.

His listed height is 6'2" which hasn't been verified and soon will be this wed. at the meat market , but during the interim in workouts he's wowing all observers with his footwark throwing motions and ability to learn instantly ,all new info and regurgitate it back in one showing while doing on camera a 695 standing squat in the weight room doing and endurance and strength conditioning so his body can better take NFL hits .

The kid has a chip on his shoulder , because the so called experts like the hair stoopidly have him as the sixth pick over all when he thinks since he kicked Lucks ass in College he should be ahead of Luck in draft projections .

I compare him to a right handed version of Steve Young with more maturity better leadership and a more charming personalilty which gets teamates to buy in .

He makes plays and makes those around him better .

Not saying , you have a problem with color .

But if this kid was white , would any of these yahoos be lined up defending Colt Mccoy or not be all in as choosing this kid as a viable option for the Browns .

would Luck be the automatic shoe in choice for Indy , considering Polian got fired for voicing the words in private that Dungy spoke in public where they would take RG3 first .

can two men whose careers where tied to the success of Manning be more wrong than you and your reticience to take the plunge .

Inquiring minds want to know .

Exactly whats your problem numbnut ?


Fool you better recognize.................:)



SoulDawg

[pup]

As an early entrant (not earliest, but early nonetheless) I can without hesitation say that if RG3 were white, he would not be that fast.

I mean, he would still be behind Luck because of football pedigree, system and coaching.

[peeker643]

Not saying , you have a problem with color .

But if this kid was white , would any of these yahoos be lined up defending Colt Mccoy or not be all in as choosing this kid as a viable option for the Browns .

would Luck be the automatic shoe in choice for Indy , considering Polian got fired for voicing the words in private that Dungy spoke in public where they would take RG3 first .

can two men whose careers where tied to the success of Manning be more wrong than you and your reticience to take the plunge .

Inquiring minds want to know .

Exactly whats your problem numbnut ?


Fool you better recognize.................:)



SoulDawg

If RG3 were white, yeah, I think he's still behind Luck. Luck has better size and build and has demonstrated he has fewer question marks than RG3 because of his pedigree and his history. He's DEMONSTRATED it, not been blessed by the media with it. And people forget how good a runner and athlete Luck is as well.

But I agree we're not talking about Luck anymore. My issue isn't with taking RG3 or even trading up if you think he's worth it. My issue is people believeing there are no question marks with the guy. That his build, small frame and lack of experience in reading defenses doesn't matter simply because of everything else.

It does. If after the next week or so he alleviates those issues then there is no reason not to go up and do what you have to do to get him. I have no idea why we can't wait til then to annoint him the next Steve Young.

[Hikohadon]

Does RG3 have question marks? Of course. Every QB in the history of the NFL Draft has had question marks. He has less than most, but probably more than Luck. Do the question marks mean anything? Only time will tell.

Does he have "concerns"? Not really. A question mark is a worry about an unknown, a concern is a worry about a known problem.

I don't think a majority of people think he's Football Jesus. But I do think people are latching onto him because he's simply the only option that in all likelihood has the potential to be anything close to Football Jesus.

Flynn, Tannehill, Kolb... thems is all Football Random Nameless Monk In Some Monestary In Medieval Latvia.

And Colteca McWallace? He's Football Judas.

[peeker643]

Does RG3 have question marks? Of course. Every QB in the history of the NFL Draft has had question marks. He has less than most, but probably more than Luck. Do the question marks mean anything? Only time will tell.

Does he have "concerns"? Not really. A question mark is a worry about an unknown, a concern is a worry about a known problem.

I don't think a majority of people think he's Football Jesus. But I do think people are latching onto him because he's simply the only option that in all likelihood has the potential to be anything close to Football Jesus.

Flynn, Tannehill, Kolb... thems is all Football Random Nameless Monk In Some Monestary In Medieval Latvia.

And Colteca McWallace? He's Football Judas.

The fact he's not even 6'2" tall is a concern of mine. The fact he's got a smaller frame is a concern of mine.

The fact he's not had to truly read defenses is a concern of mine although it's one that can easily be alleviated if he displays that ability in his upcoming skull sessions.

I guess questions vs. concerns is a subjective issue too.

[jb]

Luck seems very intelligent. RG3 seems very intelligent. There is no way to categorically measure how smart they are against each other. Any attempt is fruitless, foolish, and, really, who gives a fuck? It seems apparent they're both plenty smart enough. Luck will be a Horsey. Fin.

Amen.

Maybe they should play Risk to determine who is "smarter".

Or should it be Stratego?

[pup]

We should probably cancel the draft if we can only take guys with no question marks or concerns.

Shit, there are people saying Andy Luck's arm is a question mark. I will take skinny as my question mark over arm strength (and no, I am not saying RG3> Luck)

[jb]

SD, this is arguably one of your worst posts of all time, and we are all dumber for reading it in any way, shape, or form.

Couch was drafted # 1 overall for potential, not due to racism. Not a unanimous #1 overall prior to the draft s he had flaws, but consensus sure enough based on mocks and talking head analysis. He was drafted for the same reason you remind us daily we ned to draft a franchise QB. Sucks for all he didn't work out.

Andrew Luck is the dominant number one overall even if RG3 could trace his roots back to the Mayflower, his family owns an 8 figure summer home in Kennebunkport purchase by how great-great-great-great-great grandfather Increase Griffin III, and he was a legacy member of Skull and Bones following his matriculation from Phillips Exeter.

Stick to reminiscing about Marlan Briscoe, Sherman Smith and Conridge Holloway. At least you'd have a point.

[Hikohadon]

You want a concern?

How about the concern we all should have if the Browns sit tight during Free Agency and fail to get RG3 in the draft.

Colt improves enough and has enough talent around him to get 6-8 wins the next couple years, good enough to move us safely out of Franchise QB range. Suddenly it's 2014 and we STILL have a steaming pile of mush at QB.

Scares the shit out of me.

[jb]

You want a concern?

How about the concern we all should have if the Browns sit tight during Free Agency and fail to get RG3 in the draft.

Colt improves enough and has enough talent around him to get 6-8 wins the next couple years, good enough to move us safely out of Franchise QB range. Suddenly it's 2014 and we STILL have a steaming pile of mush at QB.

Scares the shit out of me.

No worries. racism will drop EJ manuel to us in round 4.

[pup]

You want a concern?

How about the concern we all should have if the Browns sit tight during Free Agency and fail to get RG3 in the draft.

Colt improves enough and has enough talent around him to get 6-8 wins the next couple years, good enough to move us safely out of Franchise QB range. Suddenly it's 2014 and we STILL have a steaming pile of mush at QB.

Scares the shit out of me.

Do not be concerned. No way Colt puts you consistently in that range. Even if they win 8 next year, they will be shuffled right back to the 3/4 class the following year.

[peeker643]

You want a concern?

How about the concern we all should have if the Browns sit tight during Free Agency and fail to get RG3 in the draft.

Colt improves enough and has enough talent around him to get 6-8 wins the next couple years, good enough to move us safely out of Franchise QB range. Suddenly it's 2014 and we STILL have a steaming pile of mush at QB.

Scares the shit out of me.

Yeah. That's not a concern. That's a legitimate nightmare. But the fact I hate what they have in place doesn't mean potentially making another mistake puts you any further ahead of the game.

All I'm asking is to see what goes down in the skull sessions. I'll take the chance on smaller frame and ideal height if that's all there is to be concerned about. If, after those film studies and after those guys have thrown everything at him, if he comes through relatively unscathed then I'm all in on it.


And if he's as smart as everyone believes him to be, what's the rush to commit until you know that much?

[SoulDawg74]

SD, this is arguably one of your worst posts of all time, and we are all dumber for reading it in any way, shape, or form.

Couch was drafted # 1 overall for potential, not due to racism. Not a unanimous #1 overall prior to the draft s he had flaws, but consensus sure enough based on mocks and talking head analysis. He was drafted for the same reason you remind us daily we ned to draft a franchise QB. Sucks for all he didn't work out.

Andrew Luck is the dominant number one overall even if RG3 could trace his roots back to the Mayflower, owns an 8 figure summer home in Kennebunkport, and was a member of Skull and Bones.

Stick to reminiscing about Marlan Briscoe, Sherman Smith and Conridge Holloway. At least you'd have a point.

SD:

The only color that matters in this world is green .

Look man

This ain't about racism this is about economic facts , so take your lump outta your throat and pull back the all things couch defense when his name gets mentioned .

If I'm Jim Irsay , and I don't kill myself first after waking up and finding out I'm an ex drunk illiterate hillbilly fuck up but rich as shit , as an owner I choose Andrew Luck .

If I'm the offensive coordinator Bill Polian or Tony Dungy who have no responsiblity to growing the franchise or the keys to the vault where i count my money , I choose RG3 who has a better arm is more elusive a bigger playmaker and gasp maybe smarter , both on the field and off , not to mention his Olympic speed vs Lucks pedigree and NFl background .

On the Browns when thy came back ,

There was no successful Black QB's other than Warren Moon the pocket passer .

McNabb was regarded as a runner who could throw , you couldn't have sold that choice anymore than it went over in Phully where he was booed on draft day , or the Rickey Williams contract for a Rastafarian looking brother prior to Al Davis thowing a boomerang to the conservatives when he payed Jamarcus Russell more than the GNP of haiti .

I was in lock step for the position of the Browns with a new francise who had to bring back a pissed off fan base who was being extorted into the new phenomenon of PSL plus getting gacked for a ticket .

You couldn't sell that shit with McNabb or Smiths picture on it and it needed a Golden boy .

It was marvelous PR it fit the dream .

I Bought The Farce even knowing it was exactly what I would do , even if the other QB's were better, and I ate the reports of his successful private workouts like chum lapping up every drop.

Couch wasn't that good , he was propped up because Franchises rode on a shiny white Horses with white Knights at the time, which is why Palmer was damn near taken to a wharf and dropped down a trap door , for the discord he raised when he mentioned Akillme Smith
had a stronger arm , and why his back still bore whip marks when he was made to mouth ascent when they were trotted out to be in lock step accord in regard to Couch pre draft.

He fit the part he got the shot , he failed .

There was never a legit consideration for any other option once Policy found out he was 6'5" blond hair and blue eyed and could breath without passing out .

They didn't even care if e could talk , which was a good thing because he couldn't .

Its what I would have done , but its hardly because Couch was the best player in the draft ,
lets be real .

and call a spade a spade .

I fell for the Okey doke same as everybody else , which I freely admit , but upon further review at leat i know how I was played and understand that I was played
unlike yourself , so grow up

thats life.

On Polian , I fire his ass too .

Irsay has to play it safe and there is no way no how does anybody in my building cast even the slightest possibility of doubt to replacing that legend which has made me rich and will keep me rich .

Even if Lucks personality reminds people of ryan leaf , Bethard err a Irsay is married to that pick .

On this one we're the Eagles with a better choice than Mcnabb , with the caveat
Luck is no prop job , he 's damn good and the safe pick and the absolute best choice for that franchise at this time , just like what we did in 99 with a far better player who is truly legit vs Couch who was never elite by any measure you can bring to the table
other than show.


SoulDawg




SoulDawg

[motherscratcher]

I think the biggest obstacle for these GMs is the fear of being wrong.

Maybe Policy thought that McNabb (or even Smith) was a better prospect than Couch. But Couch, for whatever reason, was the consensus #1 pick. If you miss on Couch, well, that's bad luck. But you took the guy who was anointed for whatever reason. It's understandable failure. It's not your fault.

Same this year. Even if there are guys in Indi that like RG3 better than Luck, it can never happen. If you take Luck and he bombs, and RG3 is the next great QB...well, it's not on the GM (right or wrong). They just took the #1 guy. Nobody gets fired for taking Luck, no matter how it turns out.

But, if you buck trends and take RG3 over Luck, and that turns out bad. It's not only your job...it's you entire legacy. You're the asshat that passed Andrew fucking Luck. What were you thinking? You're the dumbest GM in history, including Matt Millen.

There are obviously a lot of factors that go into these decisions, but I think CYA is a damn big one in a year like this when there is already an annointed goldenboy.

However, maybe these guys would be better served thinking like SD and not giving a fuck what happens. Just take the guy you like, even if it gets ridiculed by the masses.

The last time I can remember that happening is when Texas sign Mario Williams before the draft when everyone thought Bush was #1. That turned out OK.

But that wasn't QBs. QBs amplify everything.