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The home stand

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The home stand

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:03 pm

Nine game homestand; Cavs are 1-0 after the win over the Clippers.

The Cavs have a chance to put some W's on the board over the next eight games. Here are the opponents, along with their road records:

Milwaukee 4-10
Philadelphia 5-4
Detroit 2-12
New Orleans 2-9
Boston 4-4
Sacramento 3-12
Indiana 10-6
Miami 7-5

The Cavs are 5-5 at home, but their last two home games were wins over the Clippers (15-8) and Dallas (15-11).

Indiana has the best road record, but the Cavs lost to them in OT on the road when KI missed the layup, so I'm not putting that game in the loss column in advance. None of the eight games appears to be unwinnable.

Philly and Boston have both played about twice as many home games as road games, so they're probably not as good as their overall records suggest.

It's unfortunate that Irving suffered a concussion. If he's out a couple of weeks the Cavs fans won't get to see him play much on this home stand.

From what I've seen, the Cavs are a better team than the one that started the season. Gee has taken minutes away from Casspi, which has improved the team significantly. The injuries to AP and Boobie have forced Scott to use Irving and Sessions in the backcourt at the same time, and they're learning to play effectively together, which gives Scott more flexibility. Irving has emerged as the go-to guy at crunch time. When Parker and Thompson return from injury Scott will have even more matchup flexibility.

Overall Scott has a better idea of what combinations are most effective. He's still searching for a backup center and a way to limit the damage by quality power forwards, but he's getting the most out of what he has.

I thought the win over the Clippers was very significant and I'm surprised nobody is talking about it. With the Cavs playing the second night of a back-to-back, having to fly in from Miami, without both starting guards, and playing a team that came in with a 15-7 record, there was no reason to expect a win. After they blew a 15-point lead I thought the Clippers would roll over the Cavs in the 4th quarter, with Chris Paul taking over the game and dishing to Griffin, Caron Butler, and Kenyon Martin. But it was the Cavs who stepped up late, even without Irving to lead the charge. Just a very impressive performance on top of the win over Dallas five days earlier.

This should be a fun home stand to watch.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:38 pm

Meh teams upsetting West Coast teams, no matter what the circumstances, happens all the effin time and means little to nothing.

Horray, good win, nice, cut.... big picture it changes little to nothing and this team is what it is, a deeply flawed team that has enough hustle to win a meh amount of games resulting in a big bowl of meh.

The roster is TERRIBLY constructed (as it should be, they are rebuilding), so please forgive people for not jumping up and down and thanking hustle (a lot of other teams really not caring because this schedule is the worst thing ever) for a meh amount of wins.

Hell, kudos on Scott for getting his meh team to take advantage of this schedule and the assfucking it has laid on the quality of the product.

And don't pretend for a second that the quality of play isn't down A LOT this year. Fourth Quarters at this point are more often then not a battle of who can find their legs for more than a minute or two.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:48 pm

I thought you never read Pros posts? ;-) ;) :wink:

There's also part of the fanbase (and I think it's the portion that agrees with your 'terribly constructed roster' point) that flinches a bit with each win.

Watching them is like being in a bar and drinking it up, having a good time and all is well. Then you wake up with a fucking headache the next morning wondering just what the hell you fucked up.

I can't root against them. But I can't justify wanting them to win either.

e0y2e3 wrote:Meh teams upsetting West Coast teams, no matter what the circumstances, happens all the effin time and means little to nothing.

Horray, good win, nice, cut.... big picture it changes little to nothing and this team is what it is, a deeply flawed team that has enough hustle to win a meh amount of games resulting in a big bowl of meh.

The roster is TERRIBLY constructed (as it should be, they are rebuilding), so please forgive people for not jumping up and down and thanking hustle (a lot of other teams really not caring because this schedule is the worst thing ever) for a meh amount of wins.

Hell, kudos on Scott for getting his meh team to take advantage of this schedule and the assfucking it has laid on the quality of the product.

And don't pretend for a second that the quality of play isn't down A LOT this year. Fourth Quarters at this point are more often then not a battle of who can find their legs for more than a minute or two.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:27 pm

Yeah I don't know why I read that, really I don't.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:24 pm

I can't root against them. But I can't justify wanting them to win either.


I tried rooting for them to play well but lose 60 games by 1 point, but I can't do it. When Kyrie takes it into the teeth of the defense with 4 seconds to go and the Cavs down by 1, I want that bad boy to go down.

Look at it this way. If the Cavs won 12 games and got the first pick would they be better off in the long run than if they won 30 games and got the 14th pick? I guess it depends on whether there's a Jalen Rose or a Kevin Durant in this year's draft. But a 30-win team has a lot more talent than a 12-win team, so they might be better off being decent than totally sucking because adding the #1 pick to a 12-win team still gives you a team that sucks. Just ask the Wizards. YMMV.

The Cavs have extra draft picks and a ton of cap space over the next three years, if I'm not mistaken. I haven't looked at their cap situation lately, but with Baron Davis' $28 million already off the books, Jamison's $15 million coming off the books next year, plus whatever Parker is making, they should have the flexibility to upgrade the roster even without a top three pick.

Sessions will be a free agent after this season if he declines his option, which I'm sure he will. So they need to trade him before the deadline and at least get something for him. They also might get a worthwhile offer for Jamison if he keeps throwing down 25 or 27 points against teams like the Heat and Clippers. If they can move those two they'll start losing a lot more often and you can cheer up.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:32 pm

Also, while I'm here and not reading that Pros post I urge people who think this roster has potential to compare the talent, depth and overall construction a team like the Atlanta Hawks.

The Cavs have MILES to go to get near the Hawks, MILES.

And that isn't even factoring in that their only front court player that can score is eleventy million years old and gone very soon.

But hey, GEE!!!!
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:16 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Look at it this way. If the Cavs won 12 games and got the first pick would they be better off in the long run than if they won 30 games and got the 14th pick?


Yes.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:35 pm

Orenthal wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
Look at it this way. If the Cavs won 12 games and got the first pick would they be better off in the long run than if they won 30 games and got the 14th pick?


Yes.


Well, you better hope they trade Jamison and Sessions quickly followed by Varajao going down with a season ending injury, because that's their only hope for the #1 overall pick. It kind of sucks that we're only 24 games into the season and they've already won 10 games. Somebody forgot to tell these guys they're supposed to lose. I put the blame for that oversight squarely on Scott. Coach of the Year my ass.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:40 am

^That's funny. Don't ask a stupid question.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:49 am

Orenthal wrote:^That's funny. Don't ask a stupid question.



It was a stupid question. Unless Pros meant it as a rhetorical one. Which he didn't.

But on a team with MAYBE four long term parts on it (and three of those should be 6-7-8 on your bench except that two of them are redundant) you would be faaaar better off winning 12 games this season and getting the number one pick.

You're also far better off trading anyone other than Irving/Thompson for number ones if possible.

Argue that trading Sessions for a #1 doesn't get you a player as good as Sessions in the draft, but dude ain't staying here and backing up Irving for 5 more years. Get what ya can. If you could get #1's for Sessions, Jamison and Varejao (+ something additional for Varejao if the #1 is 16th-30th then I've come to the conclusion you have to do that too.

You need an elite player to pair with Irving. And you can either deal for one or give yourself multiple picks because you ain't getting one of their own free will. Not when the league tilts toward every coast and not when you didn't get one when the tBPotP was here.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:00 am

Pros is clinging to the belief that you can hit on good prospects later in the draft and have them turn Rondo style elite.

This is true.

My point is when you are fresh into a reload you rely on higher probablity (aka a Davis/MKG/Drummond) because misses hurt a lot more.

But hey, Rondo went at 21!!! WE CAN DO IT
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:11 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Pros is clinging to the belief that you can hit on good prospects later in the draft and have them turn Rondo style elite.

This is true.

My point is when you are fresh into a reload you rely on higher probablity (aka a Davis/MKG/Drummond) because misses hurt a lot more.

But hey, Rondo went at 21!!! WE CAN DO IT


Interesting:

Jonathan Givony @DraftExpress Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
RT @teamziller: Only five of the 24 All-Stars were drafted outside of the top 10. #keepontanking
Retweeted by The Greek
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:29 am

As you guys have already said its about quantity, the higher the better, but you need multiple picks to reduce the luck factor. Its just silly to posit a question like would the team be better off with Davis/Drummond/MKG/Barnes or Jones/Henson/Zeller/Beal. Then to back it up with, "Hey hey coach your winning games dummy." (See what I did thar...)

Anybody and everybody not named Irving can be traded. Keep stockpiling picks. Sign chemistry guys to short deals in the offseason to prevent becoming the Washington Bullets.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:47 am

My biggest problem is that I am staring at two young 3's that won't get max money and are playoff caliber starters that are about to be FAs.

I want one of them and they can get them.

That makes losing all the harder.

You needed to tank this year. Even if they only hit on a 5th best player caliber guy this year it gets even harder....

Every year losing and getting an elite player is going to get more and more difficult.

That's one of the reasons I would advocate overpaying for Gordon this off-season if possible, at least he has All-Star upside if he can stay on the court.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:01 pm

As much as it'd be best for the team to tank and wind up high lotto again this year...

When AV went down for the season last year, the Cavs were 8-24. Right now they're 10-14. Take the difference between those two teams and you realize just why tanking this season ended when Kyrie first held up a Cavs jersey.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:28 pm

I'm under no illusion that the Cavs can trade Sessions, Jamison, or Varajao for a pick in the 20s and end up with a Rajon Rondo. Yes, we landed Carlos Boozer and Daniel Gibson in the second round, but those are anomalies. We got J.J. Hickson at #19 and Eyenga at #30, so those are the kind of players I expect we would end up with if we traded Varajao to a Finals team for two 1st round picks.

Anybody want to trade Andy for JJ and Eyenga?

I agree Sessions has to be traded for whatever he'll bring, or we end up with nothing.

I think letting Jamison's contract expire and freeing up $15 million in cap space might be preferrable to trading him for the 30th pick. The savings could be used to help sign a better player than we could draft at #30. Did somebody mention Gordon?

As for the rhetorical question, I'm trying to say that I would rather have a 30-win team populated by some fairly talented players like AV, Irving, Sessions, Boobie, TT, and Jamison, and then add the #14 pick, than have a group of stiffs who couldn't win 12 games and add a Kyrie Irving. I understand not everyone agrees. No problem.

With a 10-14 record and eight home games coming up, any chance of tanking the season is long gone, unless Andy gets hurt like last year. They couldn't beat anybody with some combination of Samuels, Hollins, and Erden playing 48 minutes a night. OK, maybe New Orleans when Will Farrell announces the lineups.

The best case scenario is for Sessions and Jamison to be traded this week, KI to be out six weeks with the concussion, and Andy to get a case of mono that knocks him out for the year. Now we're talking 12 wins and a top three pick.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby JJN » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:39 am

Prosecutor wrote:I'm under no illusion that the Cavs can trade Sessions, Jamison, or Varajao for a pick in the 20s and end up with a Rajon Rondo. Yes, we landed Carlos Boozer and Daniel Gibson in the second round, but those are anomalies. We got J.J. Hickson at #19 and Eyenga at #30, so those are the kind of players I expect we would end up with if we traded Varajao to a Finals team for two 1st round picks.

Anybody want to trade Andy for JJ and Eyenga?

I agree Sessions has to be traded for whatever he'll bring, or we end up with nothing.

I think letting Jamison's contract expire and freeing up $15 million in cap space might be preferrable to trading him for the 30th pick. The savings could be used to help sign a better player than we could draft at #30. Did somebody mention Gordon?

We wouldn't be taking on anywhere near Jamo's salary long term for the #30, so the point is moot.

As for the rhetorical question, I'm trying to say that I would rather have a 30-win team populated by some fairly talented players like AV, Irving, Sessions, Boobie, TT, and Jamison, and then add the #14 pick, than have a group of stiffs who couldn't win 12 games and add a Kyrie Irving. I understand not everyone agrees. No problem.

I'd rather stink for another two years and end up with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden later on.

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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:02 am

Well part 1 of the tank plan is in effect w/ AV going out w/ a wrist injury and leaaving the arena with a brace on.

Now if Browns management could take over the Irving concussion recovery the Cavs could be really short handed for a while. Well at least until DHoward comes via trade.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:59 am

Jamo is vital to this team winning.

Seriously.

He's a big reason for the increase (well his sustained health). He's gotta go.

And I'm not calling him anything but okay as a player, it's just that he is the only guy on this team that can do what he does and with no one to do it you're kinda screwed.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:44 pm

Can they trade Jamison straight up for a draft pick or do they need to take back a player with a similar salary that they can release after 30 days?

They need to move him before his Achilles blows out. There's a huge logjam in the West behind Ok City with six teams jousting for position:

LA Clippers 16-8
LA Lakers 15-12
Portland 15-12
Denver 15-12
Dallas 16-11
Houston 16-11

Adding the right piece could be the difference between the 2nd and 7th seed for any of these teams. I'm not saying Jamison is the right piece, but there must be a couple of teams that could benefit, even if he's only providing instant offense off the bench while keeping a Nowitzke, Aldridge, or Griffin fresh for the 4th quarter.

Tonight could get ugly with AV and KI out and Tawn having played 43 minutes last night. The Sixers are one of the better defensive teams. I don't know how the Cavs get 80 points.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:38 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Tonight could get ugly with AV and KI out and Tawn having played 43 minutes last night. The Sixers are one of the better defensive teams. I don't know how the Cavs get 80 points.


Well, since they aren't on the west coast they could shoot a lot of 3s. :dingle:
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:16 pm

Cavs shooting 41.4% at home and 32.5% on the road from downtown. That last number is probably lower on the west coast. Yeah, go ahead and launch 'em.

Upon further review, the Sixers are 5-4 on the road and 6-7 when their starting center, Steve Hawes, doesn't play. Hawes is out tonight, so I'd say we're looking at a slightly below average team as of this moment. They played last night, like the Cavs, so they don't have any rest advantage. Normally I'd say the Cavs are at least 50/50 to win this one, but with AV and KI down and Jamison playing 43 minutes last night, I'm not liking their chances.

By the way, the Sixers held the Clippers to 78 points last night so I'd say the over/under for the Cavs is about 72.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:10 pm

Larvell Blanks wrote:Well part 1 of the tank plan is in effect w/ AV going out w/ a wrist injury and leaaving the arena with a brace on.

Now if Browns management could take over the Irving concussion recovery the Cavs could be really short handed for a while. Well at least until DHoward comes via trade.



Confirmed as broken. Out indefinitely. Now they can't trade him, but at least they'll lose more games.



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Re: The home stand

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:19 pm

Can't wait till they draft Henson and I die of laughter.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:51 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Can't wait till they draft Henson and I die of laughter.


Looks like e0y is finally in agreement with the majority of TCF posters who also can't wait until he dies.
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Re: The home stand

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:29 am

Henson just vaulted to the top of my wish list.

Might as well go into hibernation until Andy gets back. Except by then Sessions and Jamison will have been traded so the team will still suck.

This year reminds me of the Tribe's 2011 season where they started out playing well above expectations only to crash after Grady and Choo got hurt.

Random observations:

Watching Erden attempt to play basketball is painful.

Tristan Thompson needs to work on the difficult transition from standing there holding the ball to dribbling without commiting a traveling violation. Or better yet, stop dribbling completely and pass the ball.

Casspi shouldn't attempt any shots other than dunks and layups. Opponents should station a defender directly under the basket every time he attempts a shot to shag the airballs.

I've already seen 66 games worth of missed free throws. They better not miss any more the rest of the year.
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