Consolidated 2012 Recruiting Post

[jb]

Not necessarily knocking Tress JB. But minimizing what he did. You said, good recruiter, or whatever. I think he was great at it. End of day I think Lee got it right. I think what e0y2e3 said is dead nuts on and that's beyond the credit you're willing or able to give the guy. And I think now that hes gone it's easy to do exactly what you did.

And that drives me nuts. Not about you specifically, about everyone willing and able to do it.

My contention with your point begins when you ascribe motive that springs from an overall philosophy you have. Approach it like J Coz, as a sports discussion, and we're just guys that disagree on the metrics that measure talent or recruiting success.

Tress was not a hack. He was good at his profession. He was great at YSU, good or very good at tOSU.

But to make the suggestion that we're all open jawed at what Meyer has done in his limited time is a societal reflection of sorts is just plain goofy, dude. I'll plant my flag on that point.

[dmiles]

I turned down Ursaline and Mooney/Pelko to stay with Yeagley. We would have won state, trust in that. At the very least I would have played Koesters for the title.

And I never scored a touchdown in ky life Ziner. I think it is why I am such an online prick.

Yeagley should have run more tackle eligibles. Would make for a kinder, gentler domain.

Late as usual, but damn I didn't know Elastyk was South Range guy. I remember when those guys laid that ass-whoopin' on JFK, it was that brief 5 years of my adult life back living in Y-town. They might not win state but Yeagley has had an impressive run. They weren't even good back in my day (old fart late 80s) now they seem to win league every year.

[motherscratcher]

SO what do you think Alvarez said to Bielema behind closed doors? Alvarez always seemed like a hard nosed, no excuses type football guy to me. He must have been beside himself watching his head coach proudly displaying his gaping wet vagina for all the world to see.

[jb]

I turned down Ursaline and Mooney/Pelko to stay with Yeagley. We would have won state, trust in that. At the very least I would have played Koesters for the title.

And I never scored a touchdown in ky life Ziner. I think it is why I am such an online prick.

Yeagley should have run more tackle eligibles. Would make for a kinder, gentler domain.

Late as usual, but damn I didn't know Elastyk was South Range guy. I remember when those guys laid that ass-whoopin' on JFK, it was that brief 5 years of my adult life back living in Y-town. They might not win state but Yeagley has had an impressive run. They weren't even good back in my day (old fart late 80s) now they seem to win league every year.

His SR roots are key to understanding his self-loathing and thus how they project onto us via the inter webs. ;-)

[JCoz]

SO what do you think Alvarez said to Bielema behind closed doors? Alvarez always seemed like a hard nosed, no excuses type football guy to me. He must have been beside himself watching his head coach proudly displaying his gaping wet vagina for all the world to see.

He said "hey brett, must be a great time to be a Vager"

[e0y2e3]

Not necessarily knocking Tress JB. But minimizing what he did. You said, good recruiter, or whatever. I think he was great at it. End of day I think Lee got it right. I think what e0y2e3 said is dead nuts on and that's beyond the credit you're willing or able to give the guy. And I think now that hes gone it's easy to do exactly what you did.

And that drives me nuts. Not about you specifically, about everyone willing and able to do it.

My contention with your point begins when you ascribe motive that springs from an overall philosophy you have. Approach it like J Coz, as a sports discussion, and we're just guys that disagree on the metrics that measure talent or recruiting success.

Tress was not a hack. He was good at his profession. He was great at YSU, good or very good at tOSU.

But to make the suggestion that we're all open jawed at what Meyer has done in his limited time is a societal reflection of sorts is just plain goofy, dude. I'll plant my flag on that point.

To go apples to apples just look at the 2001 class.

[e0y2e3]

I beat JFK dmiles. Cayson is my boy to, never stopped crying about it.

[e0y2e3]

And, fwiw, Yeagley balled his eyes out when I went back to my HS for the first time to get into the HoF. That man raised me and made me. SR's run is now over because the kids are entitled cunts, but he is a master of young men. My grandfather got him offered the Ursaline job twice and he turned them both down.

[JCoz]

Honestly, even with all the shit we have been through that couldnt be apples to apples. In 2000 the buckeyes were in the shitter, and there were more Michigan fans in neo the than there are now Pittsburgh fans. Ok not really but still....

Realistically these Ohio kids all wanted to be buckeyes and tress sure as shit didn't have the PSU implosion to benifit from. No one is saying Urban isn't the better recruiter anyways, that's just a bogus comparison.

[motherscratcher]

[url]
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... index.html[/url]

Operation Bratwurst

[peeker643]

Not necessarily knocking Tress JB. But minimizing what he did. You said, good recruiter, or whatever. I think he was great at it. End of day I think Lee got it right. I think what e0y2e3 said is dead nuts on and that's beyond the credit you're willing or able to give the guy. And I think now that hes gone it's easy to do exactly what you did.

And that drives me nuts. Not about you specifically, about everyone willing and able to do it.

My contention with your point begins when you ascribe motive that springs from an overall philosophy you have. Approach it like J Coz, as a sports discussion, and we're just guys that disagree on the metrics that measure talent or recruiting success.

Tress was not a hack. He was good at his profession. He was great at YSU, good or very good at tOSU.

But to make the suggestion that we're all open jawed at what Meyer has done in his limited time is a societal reflection of sorts is just plain goofy, dude. I'll plant my flag on that point.

Fair enough.

Just understand that you're in the minority. Not because we necessarily disagree but because you have enough head on your shoulders to think about it. I have a lot less faith in the majority of the population. Because the majority IS slack jawed.

Plus I'm tired and run down after limping around racquetball courts for three hours. I don't have the hate or anger in me to fight.

[dmiles]

I beat JFK dmiles. Cayson is my boy to, never stopped crying about it.

Yea I was supposed to go watch that game. Can't remember what came up and I didn't make it. Kennedy up to that point would always smack around the small public it seemed come playoff time but not that year. In fact I think Kennedy's dominance in the districts stopped right about that time. One of my HS rivals has had a good run over at Crestview but other than that I couldn't tell you who's doing what, been away since 2005.

[danwismar]

So the flip flap involving remarks by Dantonio and Bielema adds up to a big fat zero when it all comes out in the wash. Dantonio should explain how his having Wisconsin verbal Dodson on an official visit in January is different from Pittman having one at OSU. But he weasels out altogether with the "out of context" defense.....OK. He released a statement after the B1G coaches meeting, that:

"The timing of my comments was a reflection of an occurring matter on signing day and had nothing to do with Urban Meyer and Ohio State. My comments regarding 'unethical' behavior were general in nature, according to my current coaching philosophy, and not directed toward any particular institution."

"This has nothing to do with my anger and spite for Ohio State for the way they did my old friend Jim Tressel"

OK, made that last line up.

And as for Bielema...what a bozo this guy is. The recruiting behavior he wanted to rat out OSU for...says he contacted Meyer ....got it "rectified", etc. He was accusing them of violating the "simulating a game experience " rule, by having recruits put on game jerseys with their names on the backs. Meyer informed him that...no, dickhead...those were game jerseys with OSU roster players names on the backs....and Bielema, rectified, says..."Oh...okay". Asshole. At least that's the story being related by the man who usually has the inside stuff.

The rule about "simulating a game experience" was put in to discourage the stuff schools were doing having the recruits/prospects run onto the field, and put their mugs and their names on the jumbotron, and have a crowd of students there cheering etc. Can't do that shit anymore. And the personalized jersey thing is part of that rule (in my very limited understanding of it). So Bielema's insinuating that either Meyer doesn't know the rule, or is just ignoring it. What a joke.

But what a chickenshit thing to go confronting your new coaching fraternity brother about, using the word 'illegal' no less. He got rectified all right. November 17 in Madison, baby.

[e0y2e3]

I beat JFK dmiles. Cayson is my boy to, never stopped crying about it.

Yea I was supposed to go watch that game. Can't remember what came up and I didn't make it. Kennedy up to that point would always smack around the small public it seemed come playoff time but not that year. In fact I think Kennedy's dominance in the districts stopped right about that time. One of my HS rivals has had a good run over at Crestview but other than that I couldn't tell you who's doing what, been away since 2005.

That was a big weekend for Y-town, JFK - South Range had 11K in the stands, Hubbard - Poland (Anthony Smith) had more and Maurice was busy shitting on some D 1 team or another.

Fucking eh, Rotsky beat us the same weekend those bitches at Iggy beat Mo with the whitest team in the history of football.

[e0y2e3]

BTW, at one point Anthony Smith, Brad Smith and Maurice were all playing in Y-town. Nasty.

[furls]

Wow, I take a day off from the interwebs and this post just FUCKING explodes. What is interesting is that I think the answer to the Tressel vs. Meyer 3 page discussion lies right in the middle of all the posts that are jammed in here. Since I didn't have a dog in the fight I think I may have been in a bit better of a place to stitch it together. Bear with me here.

-Lots here are saying that Tressel was a great recruiter. I think that is a pretty easy point to make by any metric *rankings, NFL players, etc. Any argument to the contrary is a bit silly. Now it is pretty clear that Tressel is not a relentless recruiter and he did not extend nearly as many offers to OOS 5* maniacs and generally only followed up if the kid showed interest. That is a totally different story with Meyer. Meyer is every bit the recruiter that Tressel is, but he is relentless. He is going to call that OOS kid whom he extended an offer to and ask him why he is isn't interested in OSU.

-Tressel was amazing at finding undervalued recruits. There are tons of them in the midwest and it is a key part of the job at tOSU. All the recruiting services vastly underrate midwest talent, just look at all the NFL players out of PA, OH, IN, IL, MI, IA, etc. that don't end up at elite schools but do end up in the B1G. I sincerely doubt that Meyer will be as dilligent in this aspect of the team's development, although his FNL thing at UF was very successful and yielded many a top performer.

-Tressel's late recruiting classes were very highly ranked (JCoz). True statement, there was no fall off in the recruiting services opinions of JT's classes. I thought there were some great kids in those classes from 08-11. There were also some very questionable roster decisions as well, like OL recruiting. We all kind of point to the OL recruiting but it is a microcosm of the rest of the team. How does Akise Teague not get a look (now that he has been arrested that seems like a good idea)? McGowan, Decker, Dodson, Zebrie Sanders, etc. How do those kids get overlooked? Chris Fields, TY Williams, James Jackson etc. How do you miss on this many WRs? How do Tommy Brown, Chris Carter and Antonio Underwood get offers. How do you only recruit one OL in three classes over a seven year period? These are just a couple of places where we are starting to see some cracks showing.

-Player development. OSU's players just don't seem to get better. Mike Brewster is probably the best example but there are others. Look at tOSU's LBs last year... they looked fat. This probably explains how great recruiting classes are not translating into great draft days. Alot of this lines up nicely with some key assistants leaving... which is a great segue.

-Assistants: Tressel's were cronies. How do you explain Nick Siciliano and Jim Bollman? The horrific coaching and lack of leadership last year just made it obvious how important Tressel was to tOSU's staff. Many of us have been bitching about Bollman for years, but did anyone really think he was this bad?

-Tressel Ball: enough said.

I don't think anyone will say that Tressel was not a good coach, or that the program was in a ruins when he left. I will say that I think the program was slipping in nearly every manner toward the end and that we may have been seeing the decline of the empire. The lockeroom was in shambles due to perceived unfair treatment. I think the aging staff was slowing down.

-Meyer is obviously an upgrade as a gameday coach.
-Meyer is probably an upgrade as a recruiter, although the national approach will leave more scraps for scUM.
-Meyer will probably not be as good of an influence on the community.


I loved Tress, still do, but the more I think about it the more I fear what this program was going to become.

[furls]

For those keeping score at home.....

Jordan Diamond to Auburn, the $$$$ beats the childhood favorite team (scUM). I would really love to know the details on this one.

Lots of stuff has come out in the last couple of days and I do think there is some $$$ involved here. Here is what I have read:

-tOSU loved Diamond going into his visit.
-Diamond had a great visit (for him).
-Something happened on Diamond's visit (on tOSU's end)
-OSU never contacted Diamond again after his visit.
-Diamond takes a couple of more visits (Auburn, Arkansas and scUM).
-Diamond becomes a strong scUM lean, so much so that his prospective scUM teammates are tweeting about him being a lock one week before signing day.
-Diamond ends up in the $EC.

Very suspicious.

[peeker643]

Wow, I take a day off from the interwebs and this post just FUCKING explodes. What is interesting is that I think the answer to the Tressel vs. Meyer 3 page discussion lies right in the middle of all the posts that are jammed in here. Since I didn't have a dog in the fight I think I may have been in a bit better of a place to stitch it together. Bear with me here.

-Lots here are saying that Tressel was a great recruiter. I think that is a pretty easy point to make by any metric *rankings, NFL players, etc. Any argument to the contrary is a bit silly. Now it is pretty clear that Tressel is not a relentless recruiter and he did not extend nearly as many offers to OOS 5* maniacs and generally only followed up if the kid showed interest. That is a totally different story with Meyer. Meyer is every bit the recruiter that Tressel is, but he is relentless. He is going to call that OOS kid whom he extended an offer to and ask him why he is isn't interested in OSU.

-Tressel was amazing at finding undervalued recruits. There are tons of them in the midwest and it is a key part of the job at tOSU. All the recruiting services vastly underrate midwest talent, just look at all the NFL players out of PA, OH, IN, IL, MI, IA, etc. that don't end up at elite schools but do end up in the B1G. I sincerely doubt that Meyer will be as dilligent in this aspect of the team's development, although his FNL thing at UF was very successful and yielded many a top performer.

-Tressel's late recruiting classes were very highly ranked (JCoz). True statement, there was no fall off in the recruiting services opinions of JT's classes. I thought there were some great kids in those classes from 08-11. There were also some very questionable roster decisions as well, like OL recruiting. We all kind of point to the OL recruiting but it is a microcosm of the rest of the team. How does Akise Teague not get a look (now that he has been arrested that seems like a good idea)? McGowan, Decker, Dodson, Zebrie Sanders, etc. How do those kids get overlooked? Chris Fields, TY Williams, James Jackson etc. How do you miss on this many WRs? How do Tommy Brown, Chris Carter and Antonio Underwood get offers. How do you only recruit one OL in three classes over a seven year period? These are just a couple of places where we are starting to see some cracks showing.

-Player development. OSU's players just don't seem to get better. Mike Brewster is probably the best example but there are others. Look at tOSU's LBs last year... they looked fat. This probably explains how great recruiting classes are not translating into great draft days. Alot of this lines up nicely with some key assistants leaving... which is a great segue.

-Assistants: Tressel's were cronies. How do you explain Nick Siciliano and Jim Bollman? The horrific coaching and lack of leadership last year just made it obvious how important Tressel was to tOSU's staff. Many of us have been bitching about Bollman for years, but did anyone really think he was this bad?

-Tressel Ball: enough said.

I don't think anyone will say that Tressel was not a good coach, or that the program was in a ruins when he left. I will say that I think the program was slipping in nearly every manner toward the end and that we may have been seeing the decline of the empire. The lockeroom was in shambles due to perceived unfair treatment. I think the aging staff was slowing down.

-Meyer is obviously an upgrade as a gameday coach.
-Meyer is probably an upgrade as a recruiter, although the national approach will leave more scraps for scUM.
-Meyer will probably not be as good of an influence on the community.


I loved Tress, still do, but the more I think about it the more I fear what this program was going to become.

I agree with all of that. Mostly because it expounds on e0y2e3's statement and fits with my beliefs

I do ask why it is we are "seeing the decline of the empire" once the previous emperor is gone. There is not a person on these boards who was seeing any decline of the empire a year ago or so. People were as rabid as they had ever been and talking about the strengths of the last recruiting class or two...At least no one here is on record as saying the empire was rotting on the vine.

And that's part of what I'm saying. Where was that honesty or insight then? Is it a reflection of fans in general? College football fan bases overall? Human nature?

I just find it amusing. I don't give a shit if JB thinks I'm allowed to or not

[peeker643]

For those keeping score at home.....

Jordan Diamond to Auburn, the $$$$ beats the childhood favorite team (scUM). I would really love to know the details on this one.

Lots of stuff has come out in the last couple of days and I do think there is some $$$ involved here. Here is what I have read:

-tOSU loved Diamond going into his visit.
-Diamond had a great visit (for him).
-Something happened on Diamond's visit (on tOSU's end)
-OSU never contacted Diamond again after his visit.
-Diamond takes a couple of more visits (Auburn, Arkansas and scUM).
-Diamond becomes a strong scUM lean, so much so that his prospective scUM teammates are tweeting about him being a lock one week before signing day.
-Diamond ends up in the $EC.

Very suspicious.

Saw the source of that as well... let's just say there are some kids you're just better off not getting. I still think Terrelle Pryor was one of those kids. I can't help but see him as the loose thread you pull that causes the hole in the sweater.

BTW- I'm also officially and forever leery of kids who decide they need to declare after NSD. I just think it says something about them...

[furls]

Peek, I think it is emotional investment. Tressel leaves, we all have some time to distance ourselves and gain perspective. Also, the stories don't come out until the emperor is dead so to speak. I don't think anyone knew how fragmented the OSU locker room has been for the last couple of years until recently. I think JT was losing his team and a lot of it had to do with Pryor.

There were some rumors that came out from seniors in '08, but most were attributed (by fans) to butthurt upperclassmen being outperformed by freshman. I am sure that there was some truth to that, but I think I (and others) turned a blind eye to alot of that.

Other parts became painfully apparent after Tressel was gone (Siciliano and Bollman). Many of us who follow HS recruiting could not come up with justifiable reasons for not offering kids like La'Deveon Bell or Zebrie Sanders. In the end, we all said, "These kids are awesome, if the staff is not offering them there must be character issues." What we are seeing now is that Peterson and Bollman (among others) were not really doing their homework.

We all know that the new guy is always better than the old guy (back up QBs included). That si the psychology part.

[peeker643]

Peek, I think it is emotional investment. Tressel leaves, we all have some time to distance ourselves and gain perspective. Also, the stories don't come out until the emperor is dead so to speak. I don't think anyone knew how fragmented the OSU locker room has been for the last couple of years until recently. I think JT was losing his team and a lot of it had to do with Pryor.

There were some rumors that came out from seniors in '08, but most were attributed (by fans) to butthurt upperclassmen being outperformed by freshman. I am sure that there was some truth to that, but I think I (and others) turned a blind eye to alot of that.

Other parts became painfully apparent after Tressel was gone (Siciliano and Bollman). Many of us who follow HS recruiting could not come up with justifiable reasons for not offering kids like La'Deveon Bell or Zebrie Sanders. In the end, we all said, "These kids are awesome, if the staff is not offering them there must be character issues." What we are seeing now is that Peterson and Bollman (among others) were not really doing their homework.

We all know that the new guy is always better than the old guy (back up QBs included). That si the psychology part.

I can dig that. I think the Bollman/Cronyism issues were visible before Tressel left and hurt the on field performance, but I can agree with pretty much everything else.

I know expectations are way out of perspective right now, but quick question:

If Meyer wins one MNC and plays in three in 8 years, are you good with that? Is it 'satisfactory' or is it better?

[peeker643]

From Pete Keating at ESPN (insider)

DURING THE PAST YEAR, the past year, colleges have spent millions of dollars and thousands of hours scouting high school football players, breaking them down on film, ranking them on secret lists, feting them with parties and hostesses and luring them with scholarship offers. On Feb. 1, national signing day, we'll get to see which programs did the best job in their recruiting. What could be more fun? If your favorite school lands the best athletes in the country, it will lead to years of bowl victories and contending for national championships, right?

Not so fast, my friends. New research shows that the connection between landing top preps and winning games is shockingly weak -- so much so that fans should rethink how they judge a coach's recruiting efforts.

Winthrop found no correlation between the number of recruits with three or more stars on an FBS team and its subsequent winning percentages. "We checked more than 100 performance statistics, including points, yards and touchdowns," the company writes in a report. "We found no significant relationship between higher-ranked recruiting classes and better performance statistics."

The Mag looked at players who had been the No. 1 high school recruit in the country in the past 25 years. The list included a few players who proceeded to dominate in college, such as Vince Young and Ted Ginn Jr., but it also included a couple of flameouts like Xavier Crawford, Marquette Smith, Randy Fasani and Kyle Wright.

It's fun to see where the best prep players in the country decide to go to college. But schools recruit like crazy because they like to collect baubles and because their rivals recruit like crazy, not because there's any demonstrable benefit to doing so. The emerging research says we'd do better to evaluate programs by how they develop talent, not how they find it.

[dmiles]

BTW, at one point Anthony Smith, Brad Smith and Maurice were all playing in Y-town. Nasty.

I went to YSU to see Niles against Chaney was that a year later, or the same year I can't remember. Smith could do it all but Niles still ended up winning that game. My memory is a little fuzzy but it seems like Niles the next week got slammed by Mike D'Andrea's team? Anyway Brad Smith was good Mizzou was damn smart to snatch him, one of those perfect college QBs that you know is going to get you wins but don't quite have the skills to bolt early. As an aside what a pity Niles can't ever seem to get anything going with all that history of being a good football town. (ancient history from the 60's when my dad went there).

On your other post I remember watching the TV feed of MoC putting up 300 yards in the first half against St. Eds. And the thing was that was just rushing I am sure he had a TD on an 85 yard swing pass on top of that. One of the Y-town stations was running the game after the news, don't think it was live, but what I remember was three straight touches by MoC early in the game were all 80+ yard TDs. My wife was teaching at WWR so we were pulling for WGH. Couldn't believe Iggy shut down Harding that year.

[danwismar]

I think JT was losing his team and a lot of it had to do with Pryor

Yeah...talk about wishing you knew the details...

The loyalty between those two (in both directions) was really something to marvel at. It ended up costing Tressel his job, of course.

I had an email exchange with JB and with Furls about this a few days ago. It seems that Tressel, above all else, wanted to maintain his perception of himself as mentor, guide, father-figure, protector of his players...especially TP...and obviously to a fault.

They in turn revered him, and I think he valued/needed their reverence...maybe more than anything else. When it came up against protecting the program, instead of protecting that relationship, the program came in second. The principle that everyone on the team is treated the same came in second too...at least that's the way it appears from the outside looking in.

I don't think there's anything insincere about Tressel's concern for the well-being of his players. Ten years ago, in the Clarett case, he showed that he can care for the kid and still maintain discipline on the team....Clarett was booted off the team and out of the university...and yet 7-8 years later, when he was trying to get into semi-pro ball, Tressel was still there for him at every turn, and Clarett loves JT to this day.

Same deal with Pryor. Someone asked TP on Twitter recently if he still talks to Tressel. His response "Yup, every day". Bottom line...Tress let his need to be revered by his kids get in the way of maintaining the integrity of the program. Costly lesson to learn.

Peeks is right that after a 12-1 season and a BCS win over the SEC, not too many people were talking about the empire declining. Go figure. Lots of folks here seem to think 2011 would have been a repeat of that 2010 season if Tatgate doesn't happen. I'm not so sure. Having those four offensive stars would have made a huge difference, but it wouldn't have made the linebackers faster...or the safeties better...or the receivers better beyond Posey, etc.

A lot of the slippage...or the decline if you will, at least as far as the conditioning of the team, etc, seems to have accelerated in the one year gap between JT and Meyer...hard to blame Fickell, given all the other bizarre circumstances of last season. Hard to quantify the effects of not having the experienced captain's (JT) hands on the wheel. But I think Furls is right that in retrospect, you can see that JT was "losing the locker room", as they say...and his kid glove handling of Pryor was a big part of that.

[e0y2e3]

nm

[e0y2e3]

Also, FTR Peeks, JB and myself have been bitching about JT for years. Dan nailed the problem, Furls the evidence.

[danwismar]

Hey eO...not to be a killjoy, but I would just caution you about pasting large chunks of premium content on another free message board. I have lots of friends at Scout, including Bill and nevada...don't want them pissed at TCF. Thanks.

[e0y2e3]

Yeah, I pay and support paying (felt the same about the OBR stuff when I worked there). That post has already been bastardized on Twitter to death (seriously, Twitter will be the death of pay boards). If you want to delete it I won't feel bad.

Also worth noting, somehow the Dodson story hasn't leaked on Twitter that I have seen, which is hilariously weird.

[furls]

I have been known to email some interesting stuff as well. PM me if you are interested. I find that each of the sites tends to have about 1/3 of the story, if you get the story from all 3 then you can usually extrapolate the details.

I will say this... during the Tressel regime BN was very, very well connected, but they do not seem to be doing as well now. These days Mike Farrel at Rivals, Bill Greene and Stickney seem to be killing it. I am thinking about canceling BN. The best stuff from their site seems to be coming from connected posters and twitter feeds not the staff.

I still like Duane Long as a talent evaluator and I think the 24/7 players rankings are actually probably the best in the industry right now, but gone are the days when you could log on to BN$$ and find out that during winter workouts this guy was puking in the bucket or Joel Hale had bested John Simon in some strength drill.

[JCoz]

From Pete Keating at ESPN (insider)

DURING THE PAST YEAR, the past year, colleges have spent millions of dollars and thousands of hours scouting high school football players, breaking them down on film, ranking them on secret lists, feting them with parties and hostesses and luring them with scholarship offers. On Feb. 1, national signing day, we'll get to see which programs did the best job in their recruiting. What could be more fun? If your favorite school lands the best athletes in the country, it will lead to years of bowl victories and contending for national championships, right?

Not so fast, my friends. New research shows that the connection between landing top preps and winning games is shockingly weak -- so much so that fans should rethink how they judge a coach's recruiting efforts.

Winthrop found no correlation between the number of recruits with three or more stars on an FBS team and its subsequent winning percentages. "We checked more than 100 performance statistics, including points, yards and touchdowns," the company writes in a report. "We found no significant relationship between higher-ranked recruiting classes and better performance statistics."

The Mag looked at players who had been the No. 1 high school recruit in the country in the past 25 years. The list included a few players who proceeded to dominate in college, such as Vince Young and Ted Ginn Jr., but it also included a couple of flameouts like Xavier Crawford, Marquette Smith, Randy Fasani and Kyle Wright.

It's fun to see where the best prep players in the country decide to go to college. But schools recruit like crazy because they like to collect baubles and because their rivals recruit like crazy, not because there's any demonstrable benefit to doing so. The emerging research says we'd do better to evaluate programs by how they develop talent, not how they find it.

That is LAUGHABLE.

They used performance statistics? What a fucking joke. What that is saying is Hawaii qb's under june jones we far better than guys like Andrew luck.

Check within a conference, look at the recruiting rankings, and look at the # of conference games and championships comparatively. There are always exceptions, but you will undoubtably see correlation between recruiting dominance and winning games.

Talk about not seeing the Forrest for the trees. Embarrassingly dumb conclusions on the data.

[JCoz]

Furls I think you are making far too much of the lockeroom talk. I knew guys on the team in 04 and people were ready to quit with how bad things were in the lockeroom, particularly after the Iowa loss. The stories I got about the house crumbling were such that you'd think he had lost the lockeroom forever. They got over it.

I agree with about everything else you broke down though.

[JCoz]

My god I seriously cannot get over how fucking dumb the recruiting article was Peek. Holy shit it's terrible.

Christ I would give a lot to be able to hand Meyer that article and just watch his facial expression as he read it.

[furls]

Sure, losing makes everything worse. Now that the Tressel era has ended the split in the locker room over the TP era is starting to come to light and I am sure there will be more stories in the near future. I think that is a far cry worse than losing 4 games in in 2004.

It was pretty clear last year that the team was a rudderless ship even beyond the coaching staff. There was not a lot of leadership on the field. Some of that is to be expected with Fr. QB, but the fact that none of the other guys were able to step up except tat 5 member Boom Herron tells you all you need to know. FWIW, if I have to hear one more time about what a good Buckeye Dan Herron or Devier Posey was during their suspension, I think I am going to puke in my mouth.

[furls]

The reality will probably be different, but in general it’s hard to argue with the premise. The kids who are good enough to play as freshmen will play anyway. If a freshman isn’t good enough to see the field, even on special teams, chances are decent you might not want him tying up a scholarship for five years.

Very well put Dan, particularly the portion about a guy tying up a schollie for 5 years. There are some exceptions, but in general I hate the idea of redshirting guys. Cardale Jones is a guy that I think it makes sense to RS (if you believe he is the successor at QB). RS puts two years of separation between he and Miller. I am not sure that they will RS him though because I think they have their eyes on Malik Zaire as the heir to Braxton.

It would make a lot of sense to get Jones as much mop up time as possible, because as hard (and frequently) as Miller runs it the odds of him getting banged up and missing games during his career are pretty good.

[motherscratcher]

The lockeroom was in shambles due to perceived unfair treatment. I think the aging staff was slowing down.

Could you elaborate on that? Tressell's locker room was in shambles?

Edit: it looks like you already addressed it. I hadn't gotten that far down the thread yet.

[JCoz]

Sure, losing makes everything worse. Now that the Tressel era has ended the split in the locker room over the TP era is starting to come to light and I am sure there will be more stories in the near future. I think that is a far cry worse than losing 4 games in in 2004.

It was pretty clear last year that the team was a rudderless ship even beyond the coaching staff. There was not a lot of leadership on the field. Some of that is to be expected with Fr. QB, but the fact that none of the other guys were able to step up except tat 5 member Boom Herron tells you all you need to know. FWIW, if I have to hear one more time about what a good Buckeye Dan Herron or Devier Posey was during their suspension, I think I am going to puke in my mouth.

It wasn't all about losses and it actually was a good deal similar, because that locker room was split because of Troy.

Pryor graduates and things reset. Look at the stories after Troy left in 06.

Troy wasn't really being painted in a great light in terms of leadership, I remember the comments from players about it being alot more selfless on the team in 07. There were a TON of quotes that made things seem like things were not great in that lockeroom. That was 2006.

It really doesnt matter at this point, I just am not buying for one second that that was a crumbling house.

[JCoz]

Did a quick and rough survey from 02-11 recruiting and conference results as a test run:

Wins.....Recruiting
(7)OSU......(7)OSU
(2)UM........(2)UM
(2)IOWA....(2)PSU
(2)WIS.......(2)IOWA
(2)PSU......(0)ILL
(1)MSU......(2)WIS
(0)PUR......(1)MSU
(0)NW........(0)PUR
(0)MINN....(0)MINN
(0)ILL.........(0)NW
(0)IND........(0)IND

(*)Conference Titles

[peeker643]

Also, FTR Peeks, JB and myself have been bitching about JT for years. Dan nailed the problem, Furls the evidence.

Okay.

But there's not a soul here with any sense who wasn't aware of the issues with Tressel's cronyism or stone age approach. If you're talking something else I'm all ears.

If you're talking about being Nostradamus regarding the decline of the empire I'm not buying.

And JCoz, I saw that article this morning after this thread. Thought it was interesting read.

You can read entire thing on Insider as it may be less choppy but yeah, gist is (and no one I know disputes this) coaching and development are more important than recruiting.

Who could have imagined?

[JCoz]

Also, FTR Peeks, JB and myself have been bitching about JT for years. Dan nailed the problem, Furls the evidence.

Okay.

But there's not a soul here with any sense who wasn't aware of the issues with Tressel's cronyism or stone age approach. If you're talking something else I'm all ears.

If you're talking about being Nostradamus regarding the decline of the empire I'm not buying.

And JCoz, I saw that article this morning after this thread. Thought it was interesting read.

You can read entire thing on Insider as it may be less choppy but yeah, gist is (and no one I know disputes this) coaching and development are more important than recruiting.

Who could have imagined?

Urban Meyer would laugh in your face on that one. Look at his quotes, he's said several times that recruiting is his absolute number one priority for his assistant.

X's and O's? Dead last.

That articles research is flawed and conclusions are 100% incorrect. It's really that simple.

[peeker643]

Also, FTR Peeks, JB and myself have been bitching about JT for years. Dan nailed the problem, Furls the evidence.

Okay.

But there's not a soul here with any sense who wasn't aware of the issues with Tressel's cronyism or stone age approach. If you're talking something else I'm all ears.

If you're talking about being Nostradamus regarding the decline of the empire I'm not buying.

And JCoz, I saw that article this morning after this thread. Thought it was interesting read.

You can read entire thing on Insider as it may be less choppy but yeah, gist is (and no one I know disputes this) coaching and development are more important than recruiting.

Who could have imagined?

Urban Meyer would laugh in your face on that one. Look at his quotes, he's said several times that recruiting is his absolute number one priority for his assistant.

X's and O's? Dead last.

That articles research is flawed and conclusions are 100% incorrect. It's really that simple.

I don't think so. I don't think for a second Meyer or anyone else believes you recruit those kids and watch them take you to a bowl game. Just get their signatures and book a flight to the Orange Bowl? I find it hard to imagine you believe that to be the case. Read the article. Maybe my cuts and pastes chop it up too much.

Otherwise you're telling me Mack Brown should win the MNC every year and that Mike D'Andrea is a better player than James Laurinaitis/AJ Hawk

If you want the whole thing I'll pm or email you. Then you can see it in ts entirety if you haven't already.

[JCoz]

Peek I really don't need to, I know for an absolute fact that recruiting is not something schools do just because their rivals do.

I know for a fact that Meyer considers recruiting priority number one. Because he has said so himself. Several times.

“My job as the head coach is to put a plan together,” Meyer said. “The plan is very simplistic. It’s not rocket science. You recruit really good players. If you’re lucky, you recruit great ones. Number two, hire great coaches. Everybody knows that

.

[peeker643]

Peek I really don't need to, I know for an absolute fact that recruiting is not something schools do just because their rivals do.

I know for a fact that Meyer considers recruiting priority number one. Because he has said so himself. Several times.

“My job as the head coach is to put a plan together,” Meyer said. “The plan is very simplistic. It’s not rocket science. You recruit really good players. If you’re lucky, you recruit great ones. Number two, hire great coaches. Everybody knows that

.

I don't think the author is saying it any other way than tongue in cheek. Which is why I mentioned context may be lacking with my snippets..

I think the overriding point is you can get the alleged best players in the country but that's a bit ambiguous/subjective. And even when you get them you need to coach them and develop them.

Otherwise, not sure why you need coaches if your recruits can just sign and win without development.

[JCoz]

No one is saying that. What I'm saying is the there is strong correlation between recruiting and winning. You rent going to find nation champions who don't recruit well.*

Urban Meyer and his staff would not have won national championships at Florida with classes full of three stars. It is not a coincidence that USC was so dominant under Carroll and also recruited better than any team in the country. It is not a coincidence that Alabama is now recruiting better than anyone in the country and is dominating on the field under Saban.

You need good coaches but more than that you need good players.

Recruiting is absolutely critical and by and large four and five star players ARE better than three stars as a general rule.

[peeker643]

No one is saying that. What I'm saying is the there is strong correlation between recruiting and winning. You rent going to find nation champions who don't recruit well.*

Urban Meyer and his staff would not have won national championships at Florida with classes full of three stars. It is not a coincidence that USC was so dominant under Carroll and also recruited better than any team in the country. It is not a coincidence that Alabama is now recruiting better than anyone in the country and is dominating on the field under Saban.

You need good coaches but more than that you need good players.

Recruiting is absolutely critical and by and large four and five star players ARE better than three stars as a general rule.

I agree with everything except the "You need good coaches but more than that you need good players"

I think it's 50/50.

I also think really good coaching can get a 3* recruit to produce at a 4* star level while shitty coaches will kill your 5* really quick.

50/50 if not slightly skewed to coaching. Example. I think shitty coaching/staffing hampered a 5* tpeezy2.

No doubt he was 5*, right? No doubt he was very good in college but never truly reached that 5* collegiate level?

[furls]

Recruit rankings are fun, but they really aren't a true indicator of the value of classes, they are more an algorithm to try to make the subjective appear objective. Class rankings ignore a player's true value (or lack thereof) to a team. Remember the USC team that had the #1 recruiting class in the country (Joe McKnight's year) because they had four 5* RBs? The fact that the class had 4 RBs undermined the value, let alone the fact that most of the "star power" was at one position.

There are some guys, Noah Spence and Adolphus Washington for instance, that are valuable in any system, but I would say that Dunn is a weird fit for this system and therefore is not really worth his 5* rating. That said, a guy like Davonte Neal may be worth more than a 4* rating in an Urban Meyer offense. Smaller, more athletic linemen that may only be 3-4* because they are lighter are worth more in Meyer's system than some of the 330lb 6-8 behemouths that get the 5*.

And then there is the question of NEED! That is obviously the most important part of a class (or draft). I don't care enough about recruiting (believe it or not) to scour Alabama or TX's class to see if their recruits better fit their needs than tOSU.

That said, here is my take on the 2012 class.... it is an absolute HR. It addresses needs and brings in vital playmakers. Here it is broken down by addressing needs:

1. OL: Most important need. Depth was a trainwreck and the tackle was a disaster. The Buckeyes have decent answers at OT next year in Norwell and Fragel. 2013 is a ??? and either Dodson or Decker will need to be ready to make the jump to starter. The Buckeyes answered this glaring need with 5 OL. 2 Tackles and 3 interior guys. I am not sure how Boren and Elflein will do, but O'Connor is a potential AA guard and Dodson and Decker have elite upside. Overall the Buckeyes took care of a huge need.

2. LB: Last year's LB play was a disaster; it undermined the entire defense. Once the play got past Hankins it was going for 15 until the safety made the tackle. Buckeyes landed Marcus and Perkins, two players I LOVE! I am not sure if Williams will materialize into anything, and hopefully Roberts is another camp offer gem. Who knows. In the end, the Buckeyes got 2 guys that I think are contributors and I think Marcus could play next year. Again, Home RUN.

3. WR/Playmaker: Still don't think the Buckeyes have that guy yet. If/when they land Diggs this need will be met. For now, we have to go with Frank E., Southward and Thomas. Thomas was a UA AA last year, so he has some upside. Southward had an amazing Sr year and Frank E. just lit up the international bowl. Gotta think that one of those guys will contribute, but I don't think anyone of them is the HR. We'll have to see how Diggs plays out.

4. Safety/CB: CB really wasn't a need until tOSU launched its #3 and #4 CBs in the same week last month. Armani Reeves is supposed to be a CB, I haven't seen any CB footage, but he is a great athlete. He is very highly ranked and could be a real player I just haven't seen it with my own eyes. I like Najee Murray..... A LOT. I think he is the steal of this class, and I think he will play some CB to start with, but I think his home is at FS. Isn't it nice to think that we may have a FS that has the skills to play CB? How long has that been. Devan Bogard (assuming he qualifies) looks like a solid SS prospect. Tyvis Powell, currently a CB, prospect will probably never play CB. He is 6'4, and there are no CBs that big and I don't think Powell has the hips. All in all, the needs were met right up until Meyer launched Clarke and Gambrell. Hopefully the current roster can hold down the fort until Cam Burrows and Eli Woodard step in.

5. TE/HBack. Meyer's O will get away from the Jake Ballards and Fragels (not that Tressel used em either) and move more towards the Gronkowski/Hernandez HBacks you saw in his UF days. He has that guy on the roster right now in Stoneburner, and probably still has it in Vannett and Heuerman. The Buckeyes also landed Blake Thomas, very underrated TE, and he could fill a similar role at tOSU. There are lots of folks that think that Josh Perry is an ideal candidate to move there, but for now I will classify him as a LB/DE until proven otherwise.

6. The Buckeyes added a ridiculous DL class to the strongest position group on the team. You cannot have enough playmakers on the line, and last year's team lacked quickness and pass rush. The Buckeyes have added two of the best pass rushers in the NCAA in the #1 and #2 WDE prospects in the country, Noah Spence and A. Wash. The need at WDE was not critical, but it was there and Meyer crushed it.

This class is a triple right now, if they land Diggs it is a HR. Now it is up to the staff to develop them.

[furls]

No one is saying that. What I'm saying is the there is strong correlation between recruiting and winning. You rent going to find nation champions who don't recruit well.*

Urban Meyer and his staff would not have won national championships at Florida with classes full of three stars. It is not a coincidence that USC was so dominant under Carroll and also recruited better than any team in the country. It is not a coincidence that Alabama is now recruiting better than anyone in the country and is dominating on the field under Saban.

You need good coaches but more than that you need good players.

Recruiting is absolutely critical and by and large four and five star players ARE better than three stars as a general rule.

I agree with everything except the "You need good coaches but more than that you need good players"

I think it's 50/50.

I also think really good coaching can get a 3* recruit to produce at a 4* star level while shitty coaches will kill your 5* really quick.

50/50 if not slightly skewed to coaching. Example. I think shitty coaching/staffing hampered a 5* tpeezy2.

No doubt he was 5*, right? No doubt he was very good in college but never truly reached that 5* collegiate level?

Exactly. The point on TPeezy is right on. Even more apparent in Mike Adams who seems to have stumbled into approaching his 5* potential while JB Shugarts was successfully converted from a 5* to a 3* by Jim Bollman. Mike Brewster was exactly as good as a freshman as he was after 47 starts. It is a very sad commentary on how ineffective Jim Bollman was.

[e0y2e3]

Seriously, Peeks, I have been calling the end of the empire for Tress for ages. You can call me out about a lot of shit, but as personally tied as I am to that man and his system, I saw the end.

[Bayou Tribe]

I've got to go back and read this entire thread (or at least from the timeline that Dantonio and ol what's his face in Wisconsin started bitching). Truth is, Urban is going to bring SEC recruiting tactics to Columbus. He's going to spew negative shit about other programs, he's going to pimp everyone from Alex Smith down to Percy Harvin, and none of you are going to mind because he's going to collect hardware. That's what he does. He's a fucking ninja assassin in a Nike pullover.

Illegal? Nope.
Unethical? Possibly.
Does it work? Yep.
Does he give a shit? Of course not.


I know the majority of the posters in this forum have had mixed feelings towards guys like Meyer in the past when they've coached at other schools, so it will be interesting to see if/how their feelings changed now that it's in Columbus. My suggestion.... enjoy it. Times change; this is how winning is done. Meyer is going to have a tough time getting his shoe out of the Big 10's ass. It's going to be a blast for you guys.

[peeker643]

I know the majority of the posters in this forum have had mixed feelings towards guys like Meyer in the past when they've coached at other schools, so it will be interesting to see if/how their feelings changed now that it's in Columbus.

Let me end the mystery for you, Bayou: they'll suck it up. Meyer will wear a white hat. Everyone else in the SEC will be cheating, thieving assholes like Meyer was when he was down here.

That's over. Prodigal son. Whole new game. Brand new attitude. All that....

Erich Barnes- 'Dirty' if he's lined up across from you. 'Aggressive' if he's on your sideline.

That's guaranteed.

[FUDU]

Is Urban going to be able to over sign here?