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Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

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Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:03 pm

Before you laugh, he can't be ridiculously worse defensively than Carlos Santana there (IMO). Or LaPorta for that matter. Or Brantley...or....

If you want offense he's still a viable offensive player (though clearly on the down side) but last year in ~600ABs he hit .261/.326/.418 with 16Hrs, 75RBI and 20SBs and 110 OPS+.

All those numbers exceed LaPorta's. All of them.

You want offense he's an option. And he's played a wee bit of 1B in the past w/o looking like a pitcher trying to hit.

Just a thought. He can probably be had for what cash you have left and he (and Vlad) are still unsigned. I happen to think Damon is a better athlete at this point than Vlad or I might even consider Vlad there too.

Thoughts?
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:28 pm

Going off of last years stats alone, Damon would be a nice upgrade. This is a scary thing to say since Damon is a full decade+ older than LaPorta. But the fact remains that Damon put in a full season last year with some pretty solid numbers. Throw in the fact that he's a straight up ballplayer with a real passion for the game, and you've got me sold from the hitting perspective.

But how would he be at first? 1)He's got some experience. 2)I hate Santana at first.

I don't like the concept of bringing in old players, but in this case, a 1 year deal doesn't sound that bad at all to me. Bottom line - don't see it happening, but I think it would be a good play considering the market at 1B right now.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:33 pm

I get that Derrick Lee isn't thrilled about playing in Cleveland. But certainly he has to realize there isn't a better opportunity for him in terms of playing time, need for his specific skills (1B, RH bat with pop), leadership and, unlike last year in Pittsburgh where he was supposedly so happy, the hint of a chance at contending, particularly if he has anything left. Guess he's still hoping for a Yankees/Red Sox bench role to fall out of the sky.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby Jumbo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:52 pm

Nothing wrong with Damon at all. Or Vlad. Or Kotchman. Or Lee if he wouldn't rather retire than play in Cleveland. Any of them would be better than LaPorta, who after 1,000 (one thousand!) major league at-bats hasn't shown any ability to ever hit like a league average first baseman(*). A guy in his upper 30s transitioning to first base isn't ideal, but it's not an overwhelming problem.

(*) Quick comparison:
The AL at 1B in 2011: .271/.340/.452
Damon: .261/.326/.418
Vlad: .290/.317/.416
Lee: .267/.325/.446
Kotchman: .306/.378/.422
LaPorta: .247/.299/.412

I still like Kotchman on the basis of age. Even if last year as a career-year, there's less chance of a total breakdown. But any of them would be an upgrade, and both Laporta and Russ not-Branyan are still there as replacement level options in case of injury / marked decline.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby Jumbo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:54 pm

From Jayson Stark via MLBTR: Damon and Vlad are each looking for $5M each.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/damon-guerrero-seek-5mm-deals.html

If Lee is retiring and they don't like Kotchman, offer $3M to each and see if either takes it first.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:11 pm

I wrote when someone brought up Vlad at first that there was no way this team built around ground-ball pitchers would even consider putting him there. I think Vlad would be horrible at first base. Damon, I don't think would be as bad. But I still doubt that the Indians brass will consider putting a guy at first who never played there before. Even though they don't mind doing it with catchers.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:14 pm

Jumbo wrote:From Jayson Stark via MLBTR: Damon and Vlad are each looking for $5M each.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/damon-guerrero-seek-5mm-deals.html

If Lee is retiring and they don't like Kotchman, offer $3M to each and see if either takes it first.


And Kotchmann made about $5m last season and is looking to cash in but what neighborhood is he ultimately living in?
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:15 pm

Sacrifice offense for defense. Get a proven defensive 1B. If Kotchman's the best guy out there, then suck it up and deal with it.

Pass on Damon. Wheels have to fall off sooner rather than later.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:20 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Sacrifice offense for defense. Get a proven defensive 1B. If Kotchman's the best guy out there, then suck it up and deal with it.

Pass on Damon. Wheels have to fall off sooner rather than later.


Suck it up and deal with it is fine were it not for the fact they won't. That's the issue. I'd be thrilled if they just sucked it up and dealt with it that way.

So would Lee be your next choice, Adam? Because he's better defensively?
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:30 pm

peeker643 wrote:Suck it up and deal with it is fine were it not for the fact they won't. That's the issue. I'd be thrilled if they just sucked it up and dealt with it that way.

So would Lee be your next choice, Adam? Because he's better defensively?


Yeah, Lee would be my next choice. Right handed stick, little bit of pop, can still field it pretty well. Again, another risk as he's an older guy. Difference is that Lee has plenty of 1B experience while Damon has little.

Kotchman's been #1 in the AL in fielding percentage each of the last four seasons. I hope we're just waiting for his price to come down.

If it comes down to desperation, I can deal with Damon. I'd just rather have a guy with a lot more innings played at first base. Damon's only got 12 innings over there. You know the Indians, who are very statistical in their evaluations, want a top notch defense because they'll consider it their trump card over the Tigers.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby Jumbo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:58 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Jumbo wrote:From Jayson Stark via MLBTR: Damon and Vlad are each looking for $5M each.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/damon-guerrero-seek-5mm-deals.html

If Lee is retiring and they don't like Kotchman, offer $3M to each and see if either takes it first.


And Kotchmann made about $5m last season and is looking to cash in but what neighborhood is he ultimately living in?


I've got no idea. GM me thinks that Kotch @ $5M > either Damon or Vlad @ $3M, but either Damon or Vlad @ $3M > then Kotch @ (say) $8M. If Damon or Vlad hold the line at $5M, then offer Kotch around $6M and see what happens...if he holds out for (say) $8M, and the others hold at $5M, well, I still take Kotch, but it's not my money.

There's really no news on Kotchman, and it seems like most people think last year was a fluke. Any one of them is a gamble, and I think you generally want to gamble on the younger player...plus, you don't have to worry about Kotch needing to learn a new position.

I wonder if the hang-up is that Kotchman has been looking for a multiyear deal from somebody, but nobody is willing to do that based just on last year.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:07 pm

Jumbo wrote:There's really no news on Kotchman, and it seems like most people think last year was a fluke. Any one of them is a gamble, and I think you generally want to gamble on the younger player...plus, you don't have to worry about Kotch needing to learn a new position.

I wonder if the hang-up is that Kotchman has been looking for a multiyear deal from somebody, but nobody is willing to do that based just on last year.


Interesting theory. You may be right.

If that's the case, the Indians should come in with 2 years, 8.5M with a team option for a third year. It's not like we've got a first baseman in waiting and it's not like the market ever gives us a chance at any of the four corner positions in free agency.

If you give Kotchman the security of a second year, you probably lessen his asking price a little. I'd go as high as 2/10, but with the second year a team option at 5.5M. That way, if he blows and 2011 was a fluke, you can easily decline the option, with, say, a 1M buyout.

I don't think he's going to find a starting spot on too many teams other than us. Could give us a leg up and a chance to get a lower price.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby Believeland » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:38 pm

Kotchman to the Tribe.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/02/i ... chman.html

Hopefully this results in Hafner not starting vs. Lefties.

vs. LHP
C - Marson
DH - Santana
1B - Kotchman
LF - Cunnginham/Sloth after Brantley is forced to CF for Grady
Last edited by Believeland on Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:38 pm

Because Jon Heyman just tweeted the Indians signed Kotchman.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:40 pm

See? All I had to do was get the ball rolling and suggest playing a 38 yr old whose never played 1B at 1B.

You're welcome fuckwads.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:46 pm

Got our excellent fielder at 1B. Hopefully he hits around .280. I don't expect .300 or a .380 OBP again, but .280 and .360 work for me. I'd write a Gold Glove bonus into his contract if I was his agent. Dude should lead the league in total chances.

Just gotta see the money amount.

Hoping for one more piece this offseason, but I think we're close to done. Perhaps a couple more minor league deals with invites to ST.

Should be a really interesting spring. Plenty of motivated guys looking for bench spots. Perennial fifth starter battle again.

Need these next two months to fly by.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:46 pm

I like the move.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:46 pm

Somewhere Matt LaPorta weeps.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby CTtribefan » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:47 pm

They are reporting that we signed Kotchman. WTF! Another left handed bat! They should have signed Vladdy and begged him to play first. At least that guy can really hit. Kotchman has one good year and our GM buys. Guy is going to hit .260 with 8 homeruns.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:47 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:Somewhere Matt LaPorta weeps.


Good. He's a bum.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:47 pm

1 yr deal. No financials forthcoming yet.

We are pleased to announce that we have agreed to sign first baseman Casey Kotchman to a one year contract....Casey will provide needed stability at first base and a strong on-base presence in our lineup. Solidifying our production at first base was a priority entering the off-season, and we are pleased to be able to do so with a player of Casey’s caliber.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:49 pm

CTtribefan wrote:They are reporting that we signed Kotchman. WTF! Another left handed bat! They should have signed Vladdy and begged him to play first. At least that guy can really hit. Kotchman has one good year and our GM buys. Guy is going to hit .260 with 8 homeruns.


Yep. Going to lead the league in ground ball outs so we'll give first base to a guy who has never played it and has been a full-time DH for the last two years.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:50 pm

peeker643 wrote:1 yr deal. No financials forthcoming yet.

We are pleased to announce that we have agreed to sign first baseman Casey Kotchman to a one year contract....Casey will provide needed stability at first base and a strong on-base presence in our lineup. Solidifying our production at first base was a priority entering the off-season, and we are pleased to be able to do so with a player of Casey’s caliber.


What's that from? A media release?
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:54 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
peeker643 wrote:1 yr deal. No financials forthcoming yet.

We are pleased to announce that we have agreed to sign first baseman Casey Kotchman to a one year contract....Casey will provide needed stability at first base and a strong on-base presence in our lineup. Solidifying our production at first base was a priority entering the off-season, and we are pleased to be able to do so with a player of Casey’s caliber.


What's that from? A media release?


It's a yet to be released release.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Jumbo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:55 pm

From no news to signed in a hour.

Nice move, time to start praying that the light switch actually turned on for him. Hitting .280 with good defense is solid, another .300 season would be great.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby gotribe31 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:00 pm

I can't wait till 2018 when Casey Kotchman e-mails Jonathan Knight, upset because his signing didn't even result in it's own thread.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:02 pm

Hoynes reporting 3M base + incentives.

I like this.

Can't imagine incentives topping 2M.

Money left to potentially get us a MOR replacement for Fausberto.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:21 pm

I like the move for sure. Is this the best/only above average move of the offseason?

Peeks, I had no idea that starting a thread like this could net such results; I'm impressed.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:24 pm

LakeErieWarriors wrote:I like the move for sure. Is this the best/only above average move of the offseason?

Peeks, I had no idea that starting a thread like this could net such results; I'm impressed.


I just felt it was time to get this resolved. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:24 pm

LakeErieWarriors wrote:I like the move for sure. Is this the best/only above average move of the offseason?


Depends what kind of year Derek Lowe has. Seeing as how we gave up pretty much nothing for him and are only paying 1/3 of his contract.

There's hope with him: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... e-and-fip/
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:35 pm

Who are Cleveland fans more excited to be rid of, Laporta or Tony Grossi?
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Jumbo » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:35 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Hoynes reporting 3M base + incentives.


That's a bargain, considering that upthread I thought an initial offer of $5M was fair.

This is definitely the best move of the offseason, although getting Lowe is important in retrospect with the Fauxsto situation.

With health for Grady and Choo and progress from Kip/Chiz/Brantley, the Indians have a legitimate lineup.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:49 pm

A 300 hitter with great defense is always welcomed and for only $3m

Nice bit of business
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby redneckofsc » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:24 pm

Sweet gentle Jesus...thank you....no more Laporta
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:32 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Who are Cleveland fans more excited to be rid of, Laporta or Tony Grossi?


Yes.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby redneckofsc » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:36 pm

Jumbo wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Hoynes reporting 3M base + incentives.


That's a bargain, considering that upthread I thought an initial offer of $5M was fair.




Especially when consider what we paid some of the stool sample in the past like Dellucci, Michaels, Boone, etc
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby googleeph2 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:18 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Who are Cleveland fans more excited to be rid of, Laporta or Tony Grossi?


Grossi- looking forward to his tell all book
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:10 am

redneckofsc wrote:
Especially when consider what we paid some of the stool sample in the past like Dellucci, Michaels, Boone, etc


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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:45 pm

Oh, and Russ Branyan is still a FA. He plays 1B as well.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby redneckofsc » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:49 am

Erie Warrior wrote:Oh, and Russ Branyan is still a FA. He plays 1B as well.


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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Jumbo » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:58 am

redneckofsc wrote:
Jumbo wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Hoynes reporting 3M base + incentives.


That's a bargain, considering that upthread I thought an initial offer of $5M was fair.




Especially when consider what we paid some of the stool sample in the past like Dellucci, Michaels, Boone, etc


Of course, there's still a chance that Kotchman joins that crew. Let's hope the difference really was his vision getting better and not dumb luck.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:34 am

Matt LaPorta had more HRs and RBI in 200 fewer PAs last season. Just sayin'.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:05 am

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Matt LaPorta had more HRs and RBI in 200 fewer PAs last season. Just sayin'.


HR are a thing for sure. Everything else being equal, of course we'd rather have more home runs. But everything is not equal.

Crotch walked more, K'd less, has a much better glove, and most importantly was much much better at not making outs.

And RBIs (that's right, I call them RBIs...with an "s") are meaningless. But I know you knew that.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Jumbo » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:08 am

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Matt LaPorta had more HRs and RBI in 200 fewer PAs last season. Just sayin'.


That's fair. But you pick up Kotchman knowing that you aren't expecting much in the way of power. You want somebody who can handle first base defensively and isn't an out machine.

Kotchman had a .378 OBP last year to LaPorta's .299. Even including all of Kotchman's bad seasons pre-2011, his .336 career OBP is still 30 points higher than LaPorta's career.

I'll take a .260-.280 batting average with a .350 OBP. Any power you get is a bonus.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:42 pm

RBIs are not meaningless. They are overrated. It's very hard to drive in 100 runs if guys aren't on base for you. At the same time it's hard to drive in 100 runs if you aren't hitting for power. While I won't base everything on RBIs, there is something to a lousy hitter with 200 fewer PAs driving in more runs than a better hitter in a better offense.

The Browns' code word is playmakers. The Indians' is run-producers. Signing Kotchman is like when the Browns brought in Chansi Stuckey. Stuckey led the Browns WRs in receptions, but wasn't really any better than Massaquoi.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:20 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Matt LaPorta had more HRs and RBI in 200 fewer PAs last season. Just sayin'.


But how many times did he use the wrong foot on the bag?

Watching LaPorta at the plate was bad. Watching him in the field was embarrassing. I've sat 14 year olds for those errors.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:26 pm

Anyone arguing for LaPorta at 1B needs to watch LaPorta's ABs on a loop. That kind of torture would be commensurate with arguing on his behalf.

He fucking blows and he's had 1,000 MLB at bats to prove it.

I don't know what, if any, value Kotchman will add. I am quite sure that even if it's none it's no worse than what LaPorta brings.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:28 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:RBIs are not meaningless. They are overrated. It's very hard to drive in 100 runs if guys aren't on base for you. At the same time it's hard to drive in 100 runs if you aren't hitting for power. While I won't base everything on RBIs, there is something to a lousy hitter with 200 fewer PAs driving in more runs than a better hitter in a better offense.

The Browns' code word is playmakers. The Indians' is run-producers. Signing Kotchman is like when the Browns brought in Chansi Stuckey. Stuckey led the Browns WRs in receptions, but wasn't really any better than Massaquoi.


Ok, RBIs aren't meaningless in the sense that no stat is entirely meaningless. There is information to be gleaned from any stat.

How about we just call it the most meaningless stat that is a stat. Because it is.
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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:12 pm

peeker643 wrote:Anyone arguing for LaPorta at 1B needs to watch LaPorta's ABs on a loop. That kind of torture would be commensurate with arguing on his behalf.

He fucking blows and he's had 1,000 MLB at bats to prove it.

I don't know what, if any, value Kotchman will add. I am quite sure that even if it's none it's no worse than what LaPorta brings.


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Re: Why Not Johnny Damon at 1B/Casey Kotchman Signed

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:19 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Anyone arguing for LaPorta at 1B needs to watch LaPorta's ABs on a loop. That kind of torture would be commensurate with arguing on his behalf.

He fucking blows and he's had 1,000 MLB at bats to prove it.

I don't know what, if any, value Kotchman will add. I am quite sure that even if it's none it's no worse than what LaPorta brings.


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Agreed.

Funny side story. I dropped him back in July in my fantasy dynasty league, and another owner picked him up. I told the guy over the winter break that LaPorta sucks, and he said people said the same thing about Alex Gordon :lmfao: .
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