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Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

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Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:08 am

With Boobie and AP both out we got an extended look at KI and Sessions in the backcourt together, although Mychel Thompson started. That pairing led a furious Cavs comeback that fell a little short as Garnett and Pierce held off the rally with some key baskets. Gee had a nice game including another highlight reel dunk and Andy was everywhere - and even hit three or four outside shots.

I thought Scott screwed up at one point when he had a lineup of Sessions, both Thompsons, Samuels, and Varajao. There was nobody on the floor who could create his own shot the Cavs had nothing going offensively while the Celtics pulled out to a 22-point lead. It was ugly and he took too long to get a scorer back in there.

If Andy could start knocking down that unchallenged 17-footer from the elbow with consistency it would add a lot to the Cavs' offense.

Bass was a huge pickup for the Celtics. He saved their bacon tonight.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:03 am

Saw exactly one possession. Down by four, a little over a minute left I think. Cavs possession 3 seconds left on the shot clock after the ball went out of bounds or something. Varejao shoots a three. He's hit one in his career as a Cavalier. This is not good. Don't wanna be a negative Nancy, but to fight back after bein down that far and have Andy heave up a trey at the end? Ouch.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:38 am

Prosecutor wrote:With Boobie and AP both out we got an extended look at KI and Sessions in the backcourt together, although Mychel Thompson started. That pairing led a furious Cavs comeback that fell a little short as Garnett and Pierce held off the rally with some key baskets. Gee had a nice game including another highlight reel dunk and Andy was everywhere - and even hit three or four outside shots.

I thought Scott screwed up at one point when he had a lineup of Sessions, both Thompsons, Samuels, and Varajao. There was nobody on the floor who could create his own shot the Cavs had nothing going offensively while the Celtics pulled out to a 22-point lead. It was ugly and he took too long to get a scorer back in there.

If Andy could start knocking down that unchallenged 17-footer from the elbow with consistency it would add a lot to the Cavs' offense.

Bass was a huge pickup for the Celtics. He saved their bacon tonight.


If Andy could hit that 17 footer with consistency he wouldn't be Andy. He'd be a Hall of Famer playing somewhere else for more than $7million a year.

Dude had 20 and 20 last night going 10-17 while the rest of his starters were somewhere around 40%. Any 3-pointer he takes is of desperation, not design. Any 17-footer he takes is just a bit less desperate than a three and always has been.

Don't expect more from Andy. Expect more from Jamison, Casspi, Thompson, et al.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:42 am

You'd think the 20/20 would be lauded by our stat guru...
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:56 am

Orenthal wrote:You'd think the 20/20 would be lauded by our stat guru...


Well, I was of the opinion that you needed to trade AV at some point in this rebuild. I just don't think you can do that the more I see him. There's no difference in his effort or his game from when it was LBJ and 66 wins to now.

You can't buy that and you can't get enough value back in a trade on what he does. He's playing every game til he retires at warp speed and he's adaptable into any offense because he's not a guy that needs or gets a play called for him.

A lot of people raised eyebrows when he got paid a couple years back.

Dude is a bargain and maybe one of the best values in the league.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:13 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Orenthal wrote:You'd think the 20/20 would be lauded by our stat guru...


Well, I was of the opinion that you needed to trade AV at some point in this rebuild. I just don't think you can do that the more I see him. There's no difference in his effort or his game from when it was LBJ and 66 wins to now.

You can't buy that and you can't get enough value back in a trade on what he does. He's playing every game til he retires at warp speed and he's adaptable into any offense because he's not a guy that needs or gets a play called for him.

A lot of people raised eyebrows when he got paid a couple years back.

Dude is a bargain and maybe one of the best values in the league.


Yeah, I'm pulled both ways on that. The Cavs were down 22 points in the 3rd quarter last night and Andy was banging the boards, hustling his ass off, throwing himself on loose balls, and taking charges just like the game was tied and the playoffs were at stake. I agree, you can't buy that. What an example for the young guys
on how to be a pro.

That being said, Andy could make a huge difference on a number of teams that will be in the playoffs this year. He contributes at both ends of the floor, is totally unselfish, does a lot of things that don't show up in the stat sheets, can play both center and power forward, can start but doesn't mind coming off the bench, and is a bargain for three more years. He is being wasted on a below average team.

The question is - can a contender offer the Cavs a worthwhile deal? They all will be drafting in the 20's, which is where you get guys like Eyenga and Hickson. If they get Andy they'll be drafting closer to 30. Even if they throw in somebody off their bench, how can that be worth a Varajao, especially since the Cavs would be left with Hollins and Erden at center?

The Western Conference has eight teams with records in the 12-9 to 14-7 range. Good teams but in need of a player like Andy to give them a legitimate shot at the Finals. But how many of them could offer fair value, if any?

If the Cavs don't trade AV, how will they avoid getting stuck in the middle, on the fringe of the playoffs but unable to get better?
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:56 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Yeah, I'm pulled both ways on that. The Cavs were down 22 points in the 3rd quarter last night and Andy was banging the boards, hustling his ass off, throwing himself on loose balls, and taking charges just like the game was tied and the playoffs were at stake. I agree, you can't buy that. What an example for the young guys on how to be a pro.

That being said, Andy could make a huge difference on a number of teams that will be in the playoffs this year. He contributes at both ends of the floor, is totally unselfish, does a lot of things that don't show up in the stat sheets, can play both center and power forward, can start but doesn't mind coming off the bench, and is a bargain for three more years. He is being wasted on a below average team.

The question is - can a contender offer the Cavs a worthwhile deal? They all will be drafting in the 20's, which is where you get guys like Eyenga and Hickson. If they get Andy they'll be drafting closer to 30. Even if they throw in somebody off their bench, how can that be worth a Varajao, especially since the Cavs would be left with Hollins and Erden at center?

The Western Conference has eight teams with records in the 12-9 to 14-7 range. Good teams but in need of a player like Andy to give them a legitimate shot at the Finals. But how many of them could offer fair value, if any?

If the Cavs don't trade AV, how will they avoid getting stuck in the middle, on the fringe of the playoffs but unable to get better?


I don't think you trade valuable pieces that are young, cheap and under control to get better Pros. I think you find more of them. I know Andy isn't a kid, but his game isn't based on speed, agility and leaping. I think his game translates fairly well down the road as he ages.

In other words, I think after Kyrie and TT Andy IS your building block and his shelf life extends out past this contract, IMO. And, end of day, end of careers, Andy ends up the better player than TT.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:18 pm

Andy and TT overlap far too much, Andy is old and will be much older by a playoff run, if you can get legit young talent/lottery pick you trade him and don't even blink.

That said I didn't read a single word Pros typed here, so who knows what I am actually arguing on behalf of.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:25 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Andy and TT overlap far too much, Andy is old and will be much older by a playoff run, if you can get legit young talent/lottery pick you trade him and don't even blink.

That said I didn't read a single word Pros typed here, so who knows what I am actually arguing on behalf of.


They do in that neither can create a shot or be counted on for much more than hustle points and knowing how to play off penetration (which TT still doesn't understand).

Issue I have is Andy may be 29 but he's also 2 inches taller and 40 lbs heavier than TT. That makes him more valuable defending down low IMO.

I hear you, believe me. I just don't think Andy's game gets appreciably worse in 3-5 years. And part of not wanting to deal him is exactly because I don't think you can get what he's worth from the clubs that would want him.

That's a huge issue IMO unless someone is willing to give the picks and a young and promising offensive three.

I don't follow this stuff though. So I'm just yapping.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:30 pm

Here is the thing, you cannot play those two together.

The team decided TT is the future (and he will gain the weight, etc).

I've defended Andy for years, but this team fudamentally drafted his replacement last year. And while he isn't going to fall off a cliff, his value isn't going to get higher.

That said, obvious targets aren't out there and it would take a lottery pick or a young known talent for me to a do a deal. Only a moron would give him away.

If a deal shows up you have to pull the trigger because you can't have your two best front court players unable to play together. You just can't.

If not, well, keep on truckin
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:42 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Here is the thing, you cannot play those two together.

The team decided TT is the future (and he will gain the weight, etc).

I've defended Andy for years, but this team fudamentally drafted his replacement last year. And while he isn't going to fall off a cliff, his value isn't going to get higher.

That said, obvious targets aren't out there and it would take a lottery pick or a young known talent for me to a do a deal. Only a moron would give him away.

If a deal shows up you have to pull the trigger because you can't have your two best front court players unable to play together. You just can't.

If not, well, keep on truckin


I agree with all of that. I just don't know where you find that deal. Just also don't know why you draft TT when he's redundant and you actually almost force yourself into making a move because of it.

I guess I could see TT playing with AV for a year and learning what he can (and he does seem to be genuinely interested in getting better unlike Eyenga/Hickson/etc) and then maybe making a draft day deal for that guy you ID or who is available.

Although a top 15 team could also easily involve a 3rd party as well to get something done.

But yeah... AV has a lot more value than common NBA fan would think.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:42 pm

If we could somehow draft unibrow I don't think the Cavs would be that bad next year.

We need to start tanking some games before it's too late.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:08 pm

I just don't think Andy's game gets appreciably worse in 3-5 years. And part of not wanting to deal him is exactly because I don't think you can get what he's worth from the clubs that would want him.


I'm with you on that. It's not like Andy's play is going to decline after his vertical jump goes from 12" to 10".

After seeing how well Garnett, Allen and Pierce are still playing , I'm confident AV will still be playing at a high level for the rest of his current contract if not longer. The only potential problem is that his style of play results in a lot of contact and injuries may become more of an issue. He missed a big chunk of the season last year.

And the biggest problem is what you said - we can't get what he's worth from the clubs that could best utilize him. This isn't the NFL where you need 53 players and there are seven rounds of draft picks. So even if the Cavs feel there is significant overlap and the best course of action is to trade AV, there still remains the problem of finding a serious contender with a combination of players and picks that would make it worthwhile. It would take a team that has a Mark Price and a Kevin Johnson like the Cavs did when they made the Nance deal. Don't know if there's a deal like that out there.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:22 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Orenthal wrote:You'd think the 20/20 would be lauded by our stat guru...


Well, I was of the opinion that you needed to trade AV at some point in this rebuild. I just don't think you can do that the more I see him. There's no difference in his effort or his game from when it was LBJ and 66 wins to now.

You can't buy that and you can't get enough value back in a trade on what he does. He's playing every game til he retires at warp speed and he's adaptable into any offense because he's not a guy that needs or gets a play called for him.

A lot of people raised eyebrows when he got paid a couple years back.

Dude is a bargain and maybe one of the best values in the league.


Exactly, teams that want Andy won't have the assests the Cavaliers are looking for. The only contending team I can think of that does, is LAC (Minny unprotected first), and they won't for obvious reasons...

Otherwise I understand the, he won't be viable when we compete, but eh eh its just a tough decision.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby JJN » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:02 pm

LAC owe their pick and the Minny pick this year. Boston gets the lower pick, NOH gets the higher pick.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby StewieG » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:18 pm

Could Golden State be a match? Would they give up their first for Varejao?
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:02 pm

JJN wrote:LAC owe their pick and the Minny pick this year. Boston gets the lower pick, NOH gets the higher pick.


Was just reading a chat recap of Chad Ford's and noticed the Minny pick going to NO, somehow forgot that was sent away in the CP3 deal (duh). My attempt to come back and fix that :pb: :pb: :pb: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby JJN » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:15 pm

Could Golden State be a match? Would they give up their first for Varejao?


Utah owns the pick that is top 7 protected. I don't think GS would give up a 1-7 pick for Varejao.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby StewieG » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:51 pm

Ah, well forget that one then. I was thinking more the 10-15 range.
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Re: Cavs vs. Celtics 1/31/12

Unread postby JJN » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:58 am

I hate the way owed picks are usually listed in the owed/owes format. I just want to know who has what picks in what year, so I made a spreadsheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Alx0gCxJfZdLdHBlQ1dlX1hVT1ZoTFVnSEVHVEhMcEE

1st page is what the Cavs are owed, after that it is broken down through 2015. I didn't cover some of the really odd provisions on some of the 2nd rounders.
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