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Cleveland Browns & The NFL

2012 Draft

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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:27 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I dig the plan JB. I'm just not sure anything can save Sheldon Brown from staggering around the field losing guys he's responsible for. A different part of the field just means him losing them in a different part of the field.


I'd really love to upgrade Brown, because I think two really outstanding corners can do a lot for you (see: recent Jets' defenses), but for a team that ranked 23rd in sacks, if Brown was as bad as he's made out to be, he'd have been Boldin/Wright burnt on a regular basis this season, and I didn't see that. (Disclaimer: they were depressing, and I may have only been half-watching for most of the 2nd half of the year.)

I don't know if he's a FS, but I at least wouldn't mind him as a 3rd corner.


If Patterson is indeed > Brown (and he probably is), then I'd rather have Haden/Patterson/Skrine than Brown in the slot. He doesn't tackle well enough.

If anything, he's a poor tackling Free Safety, and even then, meh.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:40 pm

jb wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Burfict's someone I could see lasting until the 4th round, never to be heard from again...or taken in the first and being the next Ray Lewis.

I couldn't help being excited if we got him, but he's the kind of prospect that, if you take him and he busts, you look back and think to yourself, "You knew that was going to happen, dumbass."


I agree 100% . And yet I feel where this club is we need break and we need a wild man. We are complete candy asses. Luke freakin' Kuechluzny ain't coin it for me. We need psychotic to get over the hump vs the Real Browns and the Inbred.


So you want a wild man on a D and white bread (talking about white bread, literally) QB whose ceiling is ok leading the O from the most important position?

Fuck that.

Quick fix is bullshit, find a QB, fix line through FA and go.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jjgmyers » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:14 pm

Basically I want what Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati seemingly have. (note what they all did in drafting at that position)


Flacco blows. Baltimore sure the hell hasn't been winning cause of him. Dalton? Really? 0-7 vs teams with a winning record. AJ Green and their D is the reason their in the playoffs. It aint Dalton.

And what is the premier position that speaks to...


Defense?
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:53 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
peeker643 wrote:I dig the plan JB. I'm just not sure anything can save Sheldon Brown from staggering around the field losing guys he's responsible for. A different part of the field just means him losing them in a different part of the field.


I'd really love to upgrade Brown, because I think two really outstanding corners can do a lot for you (see: recent Jets' defenses), but for a team that ranked 23rd in sacks, if Brown was as bad as he's made out to be, he'd have been Boldin/Wright burnt on a regular basis this season, and I didn't see that. (Disclaimer: they were depressing, and I may have only been half-watching for most of the 2nd half of the year.)

I don't know if he's a FS, but I at least wouldn't mind him as a 3rd corner.


Oh... no worries on the 3rd corner thing. Every CB on the roster after Haden is 3rd corner-caliber so they have their pick there.

I'll take Patterson over Brown. Brown was chasing all year. Patterson actually made a couple plays I can remember. Like choosing between potted meats though.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby noles1 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:30 pm

jjgmyers wrote:
Basically I want what Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati seemingly have. (note what they all did in drafting at that position)


Flacco blows. Baltimore sure the hell hasn't been winning cause of him. Dalton? Really? 0-7 vs teams with a winning record. AJ Green and their D is the reason their in the playoffs. It aint Dalton.

And what is the premier position that speaks to...


Defense?


Uh huh...

They're in the playoffs in spite of their QBs, just like us... oh, wait, err....

Better yet, it was one WR and a defense that lost their best player (L. Hall) over a month ago. Or #2 seed "blowin" so bad they beat up the Steelers twice this year.

I'm not saying that Dalton and Flacco are Top 5 QBs but those guys give their teams shots and hope for the future. A HELLUVA LOT MORE THAN WE CAN SAY FOR OURSELVES, WHICH IS THE MAIN POINT.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby Triple-S » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:04 pm

RG3 on this team nets us 3 more wins

Luck? 5.

I truly believe that.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby pup » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:07 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
pup wrote:After Skins move up to 3 and take RGIII

#4 - Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU
#24 - Zach Brown, OLB, UNC
#37 - Mike Adams, T, tOSU


I don't know if that's supposed to make everyone sad, but I'd be very happy with that draft.


No, no. That is my best case scenario should there be no QB coming to Berea.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jjgmyers » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:04 am

I'm not saying that Dalton and Flacco are Top 5 QBs but those guys give their teams shots and hope for the future. A HELLUVA LOT MORE THAN WE CAN SAY FOR OURSELVES, WHICH IS THE MAIN POINT
.

You were definitely implying it with this statement

Basically I want what Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati seemingly have. (note what they all did in drafting at that position)


And this one

And what is the premier position that speaks to...



Flacco had 3,600 yds passing with 20 td's and 12 int's and a 57% completion percentage good for 26th in the league.

Dalton had 3,400 yds passing with 20 td's and 13 int's and a 58% completion percentage good for 22nd and not one quality win this season.

Baltimore's defense was 3rd overall and Cincy's 10th. They won a lot more games because of their defense and the playmakers they have on offense, not because of Flacco and Dalton.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:09 am

Now we move on to what will actually happen, and it makes so much sense this is the way they will go it is kind of scary. And unfortunate.

#4 - Justin Blackmon
#24 - Whiteny Mercilus
#33 - Ryan Tannehill

With Mike Sherman the new OC. Ready to step in as the new Head Coach after a Pat continues to fall on his face.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:15 am

I dont see Blackmon being there at #4, who do the Rams and Vikes take in that scernario?
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:10 am

e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Burfict's someone I could see lasting until the 4th round, never to be heard from again...or taken in the first and being the next Ray Lewis.

I couldn't help being excited if we got him, but he's the kind of prospect that, if you take him and he busts, you look back and think to yourself, "You knew that was going to happen, dumbass."


I agree 100% . And yet I feel where this club is we need break and we need a wild man. We are complete candy asses. Luke freakin' Kuechluzny ain't coin it for me. We need psychotic to get over the hump vs the Real Browns and the Inbred.


So you want a wild man on a D and white bread (talking about white bread, literally) QB whose ceiling is ok leading the O from the most important position?

Fuck that.

Quick fix is bullshit, find a QB, fix line through FA and go.



Yes. A QB should be the polar opposite of a wild man.

Duh South Range.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:12 am

pup wrote:Now we move on to what will actually happen, and it makes so much sense this is the way they will go it is kind of scary. And unfortunate.

#4 - Justin Blackmon
#24 - Whiteny Mercilus
#33 - Ryan Tannehill

With Mike Sherman the new OC. Ready to step in as the new Head Coach after a Pat continues to fall on his face.



Didn't we absolutely have to draft Rolando McLain let year? ;-)
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:20 am

jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Burfict's someone I could see lasting until the 4th round, never to be heard from again...or taken in the first and being the next Ray Lewis.

I couldn't help being excited if we got him, but he's the kind of prospect that, if you take him and he busts, you look back and think to yourself, "You knew that was going to happen, dumbass."


I agree 100% . And yet I feel where this club is we need break and we need a wild man. We are complete candy asses. Luke freakin' Kuechluzny ain't coin it for me. We need psychotic to get over the hump vs the Real Browns and the Inbred.


So you want a wild man on a D and white bread (talking about white bread, literally) QB whose ceiling is ok leading the O from the most important position?

Fuck that.

Quick fix is bullshit, find a QB, fix line through FA and go.



Yes. A QB should be the polar opposite of a wild man.

Duh South Range.


Alright, you take Kyle Orton, I'll take Cam.

Fuck, even Rogers has a crazy streak.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:41 am

Regarding the franchise QB, I think the vast majority can agree you need to have one, but you also need to have a pretty damn good HC &or play caller as well. If you don't have both it's more of a long process and an uphill battle.

I'm more confident in Luck or RG3 being the franchise QB than I am in Shurmer being the virtual genius with a clip board.
Last edited by FUDU on Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:45 am

JCoz wrote:I dont see Blackmon being there at #4, who do the Rams and Vikes take in that scernario?


Rams take Kalil
Vikes trade #3 to Washington or take Claiborne
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:47 am

jb wrote:
pup wrote:Now we move on to what will actually happen, and it makes so much sense this is the way they will go it is kind of scary. And unfortunate.

#4 - Justin Blackmon
#24 - Whiteny Mercilus
#33 - Ryan Tannehill

With Mike Sherman the new OC. Ready to step in as the new Head Coach after a Pat continues to fall on his face.



Didn't we absolutely have to draft Rolando McLain let year? ;-)


Yes we did. ;)
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby MOSER » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:52 am

The Browns have 3 of the top 36 picks! They have to hit on all of them. RGIII would be nice, but if Washington wants him, I would trade down 2 spots. We could get Washington's 39th pick and still grab Trent Richardson at #6.

Round 1

Pick #6 (via Trade w/ Wash.)
Pick #23

Round 2

Pick #36
Pick #39 (via Trade w/ Wash.)

Get it done Heckert!
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:56 am

pup wrote:Now we move on to what will actually happen, and it makes so much sense this is the way they will go it is kind of scary. And unfortunate.

#4 - Justin Blackmon
#24 - Whiteny Mercilus
#33 - Ryan Tannehill

With Mike Sherman the new OC. Ready to step in as the new Head Coach after a Pat continues to fall on his face.


I'd love to have Blackmon.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:05 pm

jjgmyers wrote:Flacco had 3,600 yds passing with 20 td's and 12 int's and a 57% completion percentage good for 26th in the league.

Dalton had 3,400 yds passing with 20 td's and 13 int's and a 58% completion percentage good for 22nd and not one quality win this season.

Baltimore's defense was 3rd overall and Cincy's 10th. They won a lot more games because of their defense and the playmakers they have on offense, not because of Flacco and Dalton.


Baltimore's was 3rd, Cincy's was actually 7th. Cleveland's was actually 10th, so that probably blows out of the water that archaic concept that Defense is carrying the Ravens and Bengals and their QB's suck, since if that were the case the Browns would be playoff bound too.

I'd have to think that Colt McCoy proved a good Defense can't carry a bad QB.

BTW - Flacco, 3610 yards, 12th in NFL, 12 wins.
Dalton, 3398 yards, 16th in NFL, 9 wins.

Dalton and Flacco are inconsistent at times, but they also look really good at times. They have games where you think "Damn, that guy is good." Colt was almost like clockwork, meh to nth power.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:08 pm

But those dimples Hiko, didn't you respect those dimples?!?!
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jb » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:14 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
jb wrote:
HoodooMan wrote:Burfict's someone I could see lasting until the 4th round, never to be heard from again...or taken in the first and being the next Ray Lewis.

I couldn't help being excited if we got him, but he's the kind of prospect that, if you take him and he busts, you look back and think to yourself, "You knew that was going to happen, dumbass."


I agree 100% . And yet I feel where this club is we need break and we need a wild man. We are complete candy asses. Luke freakin' Kuechluzny ain't coin it for me. We need psychotic to get over the hump vs the Real Browns and the Inbred.


So you want a wild man on a D and white bread (talking about white bread, literally) QB whose ceiling is ok leading the O from the most important position?

Fuck that.

Quick fix is bullshit, find a QB, fix line through FA and go.



Yes. A QB should be the polar opposite of a wild man.

Duh South Range.


Alright, you take Kyle Orton, I'll take Cam.

Fuck, even Rogers has a crazy streak.



You're an idiot.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:17 pm

^ still pining for Bernie's return
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:40 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
jjgmyers wrote:Flacco had 3,600 yds passing with 20 td's and 12 int's and a 57% completion percentage good for 26th in the league.

Dalton had 3,400 yds passing with 20 td's and 13 int's and a 58% completion percentage good for 22nd and not one quality win this season.

Baltimore's defense was 3rd overall and Cincy's 10th. They won a lot more games because of their defense and the playmakers they have on offense, not because of Flacco and Dalton.


Baltimore's was 3rd, Cincy's was actually 7th. Cleveland's was actually 10th, so that probably blows out of the water that archaic concept that Defense is carrying the Ravens and Bengals and their QB's suck, since if that were the case the Browns would be playoff bound too.

I'd have to think that Colt McCoy proved a good Defense can't carry a bad QB.

BTW - Flacco, 3610 yards, 12th in NFL, 12 wins.
Dalton, 3398 yards, 16th in NFL, 9 wins.

Dalton and Flacco are inconsistent at times, but they also look really good at times. They have games where you think "Damn, that guy is good." Colt was almost like clockwork, meh to nth power.

Have to agree with Hiko's over all point.

Yeah those teams have good defenses but they won as a result of scoring points as much as anything else. The statistical ranking of specific units has so much circumstance to it, that you really do need to watch the teams in question while using those numbers as evidence. I mean fuck, look at how many more points they scored than us.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby wmurphyhh » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:42 pm

Now we move on to what will actually happen, and it makes so much sense this is the way they will go it is kind of scary. And unfortunate.

#4 - Justin Blackmon
#24 - Whiteny Mercilus
#33 - Ryan Tannehill

With Mike Sherman the new OC. Ready to step in as the new Head Coach after a Pat continues to fall on his face.


http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/stor ... rstrounder

Whitney sounds like the perfect underachiever for the Browns.

Where's the talk of Mike Sherman coming from?

Would actually like to see Mike Adams fall to #37. Anything is better than watching Pashos chase down his DE every time.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:16 pm

He plays hard through the whistle and even when effectively contained for several seconds, he persevered to make impact plays in 2011...Scheme and hustle, not sheer athleticism, led to virtually every big play Mercilus made in regular-season games against...Some NFL teams may believe Mercilus' heavy hands and high motor as reason enough to spend a first-round pick on the pass rusher...


If only Mercilus was white, this would all be perfectly acceptable.

(And from what I've seen, he's certainly more athletic than Effort White Guy DEs of the past like Kerrigan & Pollack.)
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:31 pm

HoodooMan wrote:
He plays hard through the whistle and even when effectively contained for several seconds, he persevered to make impact plays in 2011...Scheme and hustle, not sheer athleticism, led to virtually every big play Mercilus made in regular-season games against...Some NFL teams may believe Mercilus' heavy hands and high motor as reason enough to spend a first-round pick on the pass rusher...


If only Mercilus was white, this would all be perfectly acceptable.

(And from what I've seen, he's certainly more athletic than Effort White Guy DEs of the past like Kerrigan & Pollack.)


Pollack was a DT and was taken in the 2nd round IIRC, and He'll be taken right around the same spot as Kerrigan.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Are we talking about the same Pollack?

David, from UGA, went to Cincinnati at 17th overall as a DE/OLB.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby noles1 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:29 pm

jjgmyers wrote:
I'm not saying that Dalton and Flacco are Top 5 QBs but those guys give their teams shots and hope for the future. A HELLUVA LOT MORE THAN WE CAN SAY FOR OURSELVES, WHICH IS THE MAIN POINT
.

You were definitely implying it with this statement

Basically I want what Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Cincinnati seemingly have. (note what they all did in drafting at that position)


And this one

And what is the premier position that speaks to...



Flacco had 3,600 yds passing with 20 td's and 12 int's and a 57% completion percentage good for 26th in the league.

Dalton had 3,400 yds passing with 20 td's and 13 int's and a 58% completion percentage good for 22nd and not one quality win this season.

Baltimore's defense was 3rd overall and Cincy's 10th. They won a lot more games because of their defense and the playmakers they have on offense, not because of Flacco and Dalton.



My implication was no more complicated then where are each of these 3 quarterbacks right now... (hint: they ALL will be playing at least once over the next 2 weeks)

At least with Baltimore and Pittsburgh, they feel because their QBs they can compete for another 5 years. Certainly not in spite of them as all us Browns have to hope currently. The most important position is not a deterrent to their success rate. Cincy coupling with their upcoming draft picks probably feels the same way. We don't.

This isn't complicated.

And because you implied something doesn't mean that's my intent whatsoever. No point did I bring up winning Super Bowls but I did bring up competing andif you aren't willing to concedwe all three of those teams are in a MARKEDLY BETTER situation at the QB position than the Browns right now then there is no sense debating or responding to you further.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:45 pm

I'd guess that one way to identify a really smart argument is when it can yield opposite results from one year to the next.

For example: "Look how many playoff teams drafted WRs at the top of the first round! Look, I say!"

In early 2011: "Whoa, it'z all zeroez!!1!!1!!!! We'd be so stupid to take AJ Green or Julio Jonez!!1!1!!!!"

In early 2012: "5 out of 12 teams did that! ESPN'S SPORTS SCIENCE tells me that's almost HALF!!! OMIGOSH, we'd better take Justin Blackmon if he's there!!!"
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:56 pm

HoodooMan wrote:Are we talking about the same Pollack?

David, from UGA, went to Cincinnati at 17th overall as a DE/OLB.


Are we? 3-time all-american DT from UGA David Pollack? I dunno I thought he was an undersized DT not a DE, maybe I'm incorrect
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:05 pm

^ SMH
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:14 pm

As e0's shaking head suggests, you are indeed incorrect.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby pup » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:51 pm

Well, duh, there were only 16 teams drafting that year. Which makes him a 2nd rounder.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby Triple-S » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:57 pm

Let's go through the playoffs here:

on the NFC side:

6. Detroit Lions- Matt Stafford, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB.
5. Atlanta Falcons- Matt Ryan, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. New York Giants- Eli Manning, drafted number 1 overall (technically),is a Franchise QB
3. New Orleans Saints- Drew Brees, 2nd rounder, traded after he proved himself to be a franchise QB in San Diego (and they figured that having two wasn't worth it).
2. San Fransisco 49ers, Alex Smith, drafted number 1 overall, is NOT a Franchise QB.
1. Green Bay Packers, Aaron Rodgers, number 24 overall, is a FRANCHISE QB.

on the AFC side:
6. Cincinati Bengals- Andy Dalton, 2nd rounder, early, but most likely a Franchise QB.
5. Pittspuke- The Rapist, number 7 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. Denver Broncos- Tebow Christ, 25th overall, is more than likely NOT a Franchise QB
3. Houston Texans- (for the sake of argument), Matt Schaub, aquired in a trade with Atlanta for the 3rd overall. Franchise QB
2. Baltimore Ravens- Joe Flacco, 18th overall, is a Franchise QB
1. New England Patriots- Tom Brady, 6th rounder, is a Franchise QB.

There are two teams in here total that are in this playoff race with mediocre QB play. Out of all the QB's on this list, only 3 were not first rounders.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby noles1 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:09 pm

And I would guess that at least Jacksonville wish they had a mulligan on Dalton in this past draft. (And Tebow year's before - more fanbase oriented though)
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby pup » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:25 pm

Triple-S wrote:Let's go through the playoffs here:

on the NFC side:

6. Detroit Lions- Matt Stafford, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB.
5. Atlanta Falcons- Matt Ryan, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. New York Giants- Eli Manning, drafted number 1 overall (technically),is a Franchise QB
3. New Orleans Saints- Drew Brees, 2nd rounder, traded after he proved himself to be a franchise QB in San Diego (and they figured that having two wasn't worth it).
2. San Fransisco 49ers, Alex Smith, drafted number 1 overall, is NOT a Franchise QB.
1. Green Bay Packers, Aaron Rodgers, number 24 overall, is a FRANCHISE QB.

on the AFC side:
6. Cincinati Bengals- Andy Dalton, 2nd rounder, early, but most likely a Franchise QB.
5. Pittspuke- The Rapist, number 7 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. Denver Broncos- Tebow Christ, 25th overall, is more than likely NOT a Franchise QB
3. Houston Texans- (for the sake of argument), Matt Schaub, aquired in a trade with Atlanta for the 3rd overall. Franchise QB
2. Baltimore Ravens- Joe Flacco, 18th overall, is a Franchise QB
1. New England Patriots- Tom Brady, 6th rounder, is a Franchise QB.

There are two teams in here total that are in this playoff race with mediocre QB play. Out of all the QB's on this list, only 3 were not first rounders.


Pretty sure I put together a very similar list going into last off season. And you can probably do it again next year.

It is so obvious, yet still so many will come around and refute it. Draft a QB early in the first round. Has to be done. And you have to be right on that guy, of course. Having a first round QB guarantees you nothing. Not having one almost assuredly does.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jjgmyers » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:33 am

Baltimore's was 3rd, Cincy's was actually 7th. Cleveland's was actually 10th, so that probably blows out of the water that archaic concept that Defense is carrying the Ravens and Bengals and their QB's suck, since if that were the case the Browns would be playoff bound too.



You do realize the Browns were 30th vs the rush? Balt 2nd & Cincy 10th. To even suggest that hypothetical is completely illogical.

BTW - Flacco, 3610 yards, 12th in NFL, 12 wins.
Dalton, 3398 yards, 16th in NFL, 9 wins.



If were just giving wins to QB's:
5th rd TJ Yates 1
Franchise Dalton 0

Yeah those teams have good defenses but they won as a result of scoring points as much as anything else.


Exactly. They have Ray Rice, Boldin, T. Smith, AJ Green, Gresham, Ced Ben.... we have MoMass, Little, Norwood, Hardesty, Obi. Their defense and ability to run the ball keeps them in games and wins them games moreso than Dalton or Flacco having anything to do with it. Those teams just ask them to manage a game and don't turn the ball over. They're far from elite.


(hint: they ALL will be playing at least once over the next 2 weeks)


Yeah, it has nothing to do with having top 5 defenses. It's all because of the QB's.

Houston's D completely shut down Cincy's run and it was up to Dalton to beat them. How'd that turn out?
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jjgmyers » Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:41 am

Triple-S wrote:
Let's go through the playoffs here:

on the NFC side:

6. Detroit Lions- Matt Stafford, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB.
5. Atlanta Falcons- Matt Ryan, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. New York Giants- Eli Manning, drafted number 1 overall (technically),is a Franchise QB
3. New Orleans Saints- Drew Brees, 2nd rounder, traded after he proved himself to be a franchise QB in San Diego (and they figured that having two wasn't worth it).
2. San Fransisco 49ers, Alex Smith, drafted number 1 overall, is NOT a Franchise QB.
1. Green Bay Packers, Aaron Rodgers, number 24 overall, is a FRANCHISE QB.

on the AFC side:
6. Cincinati Bengals- Andy Dalton, 2nd rounder, early, but most likely a Franchise QB.
5. Pittspuke- The Rapist, number 7 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. Denver Broncos- Tebow Christ, 25th overall, is more than likely NOT a Franchise QB
3. Houston Texans- (for the sake of argument), Matt Schaub, aquired in a trade with Atlanta for the 3rd overall. Franchise QB
2. Baltimore Ravens- Joe Flacco, 18th overall, is a Franchise QB
1. New England Patriots- Tom Brady, 6th rounder, is a Franchise QB.

There are two teams in here total that are in this playoff race with mediocre QB play. Out of all the QB's on this list, only 3 were not first rounders.


Pretty sure I put together a very similar list going into last off season. And you can probably do it again next year.

It is so obvious, yet still so many will come around and refute it. Draft a QB early in the first round. Has to be done. And you have to be right on that guy, of course. Having a first round QB guarantees you nothing. Not having one almost assuredly does.



What do 11 outta those 12 QB's all have in common? They're all pocket, drop back passers. And the one who doesn't barely qualifies as a NFL QB.

We ain't getting Luck. It's that simple. Do you want to take a chance on RG3 (when we can't afford to miss) that he'll eventually develop into a prototypical NFL QB? I'd rather take a sure thing there.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:06 am

jjgmyers wrote:
Triple-S wrote:
Let's go through the playoffs here:

on the NFC side:

6. Detroit Lions- Matt Stafford, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB.
5. Atlanta Falcons- Matt Ryan, drafted number 1 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. New York Giants- Eli Manning, drafted number 1 overall (technically),is a Franchise QB
3. New Orleans Saints- Drew Brees, 2nd rounder, traded after he proved himself to be a franchise QB in San Diego (and they figured that having two wasn't worth it).
2. San Fransisco 49ers, Alex Smith, drafted number 1 overall, is NOT a Franchise QB.
1. Green Bay Packers, Aaron Rodgers, number 24 overall, is a FRANCHISE QB.

on the AFC side:
6. Cincinati Bengals- Andy Dalton, 2nd rounder, early, but most likely a Franchise QB.
5. Pittspuke- The Rapist, number 7 overall, is a Franchise QB
4. Denver Broncos- Tebow Christ, 25th overall, is more than likely NOT a Franchise QB
3. Houston Texans- (for the sake of argument), Matt Schaub, aquired in a trade with Atlanta for the 3rd overall. Franchise QB
2. Baltimore Ravens- Joe Flacco, 18th overall, is a Franchise QB
1. New England Patriots- Tom Brady, 6th rounder, is a Franchise QB.

There are two teams in here total that are in this playoff race with mediocre QB play. Out of all the QB's on this list, only 3 were not first rounders.


Pretty sure I put together a very similar list going into last off season. And you can probably do it again next year.

It is so obvious, yet still so many will come around and refute it. Draft a QB early in the first round. Has to be done. And you have to be right on that guy, of course. Having a first round QB guarantees you nothing. Not having one almost assuredly does.



What do 11 outta those 12 QB's all have in common? They're all pocket, drop back passers. And the one who doesn't barely qualifies as a NFL QB.

We ain't getting Luck. It's that simple. Do you want to take a chance on RG3 (when we can't afford to miss) that he'll eventually develop into a prototypical NFL QB? I'd rather take a sure thing there.


Actually, it all depends on the % one thinks that "chance" is.

Cause in todays NFL the WHOLE game is the quarterback. Everything else is ancillary, including things that were one important like THE ENTIRE DEFENSE. Sure the line and skill players mean something, but Christ, give me Rodgers Brees and Brady for the next five years, and I'll give the field, and lets see where we end up. (already rolling on the last two years running) And this is taking into account a bad GB defense getting older, New England stll missing on draft picks and having white slot receivers playing D back, and NO being incompetent on enough levels to basically be a "dome getting them into position" only team.

And this argument might not have been valid years a go, when offensive lineman couldn't legally hold, you were allowed to brush against a receiver and the QB's got roughed up more than a flag football signal caller. But this is the game now soooooo.... in 2012, if you think RG3 has a 30% chance of becoming elite, I would argue that that's a better gamble than a guy at ANY position you would put a 80% tag on.

I don't claim to know what RG3's gonna do, and I'm so down on the organization, I'm not jumping off a cliff no matter what they do, but I will say this - WITH AN ELITE QUARTERBACK YOU HAVE A CHANCE, WITHOUT ONE YOU HAVE NONE. I would wager the odds of a quaretrback drafted in the first half of the first round has a better chance of being an elite than the scenario of drafting a bunch of other guys, and somehow stumbling upon the player you REALLY need in the 6th round. And everyone who's ready to spit out "Tom Brady in the 6th..." might want to peruse the above list again, and realize where about every GD of em' were drafted.

Good day.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:53 pm

That list is a real eye opener SSS.

I'm on record as being in on RG3 at the top of this draft, but damn...if someone can look at that and think a RT and new receiver solves the Browns problems better than a new QB with a higher ceiling does...I don't know what to say.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:05 pm

Hey Trips, Dalton most likely a franchise QB? Really? Why?

Plus after what happened yesterday wouldn't that play a big part in putting that label on him? (the answer is yes considering he looked like Colt McCoy, and Dalton has better parts around him). So again what comes first the elite franchise QB moniker or winning...

It's easy to label a Superbowl winning QB as the franchise/elite. But when you are looking for "the Guy" and you are in fact a loser org. it is not that easy.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:17 pm

FUDU wrote:Hey Trips, Dalton most likely a franchise QB? Really? Why?

Plus after what happened yesterday wouldn't that play a big part in putting that label on him? (the answer is yes considering he looked like Colt McCoy, and Dalton has better parts around him). So again what comes first the elite franchise QB moniker or winning...

It's easy to label a Superbowl winning QB as the franchise/elite. But when you are looking for "the Guy" and you are in fact a loser org. it is not that easy.


We're throwing "franchise" around here a bit, let's say "Elite".
There are four elite QB's. Rodgers, Brees, Brady and Manning. Throw them any hell the where you want, and those teams would start to turn around immediately, and in short time be consistent winners.

I would ask again, how many elite/HOF type QB's, in the history of the NFL, found themselves on consistently losing teams.

Take into account the joke rules of NFL 2011, and this point is exasberated.

In today's day and age, great team, no QB = No Superbowl.

Great QB, medicre team = Superbowl.

Sure, if we surround a great with the biggest starting stiffs in the league, we're in trouble. That's rarely a realistic scenarion - as NFL history has told us over, and over and over again.

To be clear, you don't need a good QB in 2011, you need an elite or very close to elite. Again, I believe some of these arguments are ten years ago.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby Triple-S » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:21 pm

FUDU wrote:Hey Trips, Dalton most likely a franchise QB? Really? Why?

Plus after what happened yesterday wouldn't that play a big part in putting that label on him? (the answer is yes considering he looked like Colt McCoy, and Dalton has better parts around him). So again what comes first the elite franchise QB moniker or winning...

It's easy to label a Superbowl winning QB as the franchise/elite. But when you are looking for "the Guy" and you are in fact a loser org. it is not that easy.


I think he's a guy the Bengals can pencil as as starter and not have to worry about for the next 10 years or so. Piss-poor management or not.

That's kind of my intent.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:26 pm

Agreed, franchise is not elite but elite is obviously franchise.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby Hikohadon » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:53 pm

jjgmyers wrote:
Baltimore's was 3rd, Cincy's was actually 7th. Cleveland's was actually 10th, so that probably blows out of the water that archaic concept that Defense is carrying the Ravens and Bengals and their QB's suck, since if that were the case the Browns would be playoff bound too.



You do realize the Browns were 30th vs the rush? Balt 2nd & Cincy 10th. To even suggest that hypothetical is completely illogical.

BTW - Flacco, 3610 yards, 12th in NFL, 12 wins.
Dalton, 3398 yards, 16th in NFL, 9 wins.



If were just giving wins to QB's:
5th rd TJ Yates 1
Franchise Dalton 0

Yeah those teams have good defenses but they won as a result of scoring points as much as anything else.


Exactly. They have Ray Rice, Boldin, T. Smith, AJ Green, Gresham, Ced Ben.... we have MoMass, Little, Norwood, Hardesty, Obi. Their defense and ability to run the ball keeps them in games and wins them games moreso than Dalton or Flacco having anything to do with it. Those teams just ask them to manage a game and don't turn the ball over. They're far from elite.


(hint: they ALL will be playing at least once over the next 2 weeks)


Yeah, it has nothing to do with having top 5 defenses. It's all because of the QB's.

Houston's D completely shut down Cincy's run and it was up to Dalton to beat them. How'd that turn out?


Tebow, you're dumb.

The '80's called, they want their team design back.

Just to be clear so I know your "plan" - it's to draft a bunch more defensive players so we have a dominating D (against the run too) and a bunch of playmakers and then - after we do all this - what? Colt McCoy will look OK? We'll be the Ravens - a team that hasn't won anything since the league became QB-driven?

Tell us, please, what is your plan for the QB position while we're doing ALL this other stuff, which will only take 3-5 more years?
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:48 pm

Triple-S wrote:
FUDU wrote:Hey Trips, Dalton most likely a franchise QB? Really? Why?

Plus after what happened yesterday wouldn't that play a big part in putting that label on him? (the answer is yes considering he looked like Colt McCoy, and Dalton has better parts around him). So again what comes first the elite franchise QB moniker or winning...

It's easy to label a Superbowl winning QB as the franchise/elite. But when you are looking for "the Guy" and you are in fact a loser org. it is not that easy.


I think he's a guy the Bengals can pencil as as starter and not have to worry about for the next 10 years or so. Piss-poor management or not.

That's kind of my intent.

A guy that can be their stater for the next 10 years and get them some 10 wins seasons and a playoff win here or there but most likely never a Superbowl. Not trying to put words in your mouth but isn't this the crux of the discussion the 12-15 of us have been having in here for about a month? So he's Colt McCoy, I know you're not a Bengals fan but why would you think that org/fanbase would be satisfied with that when we aren't?

IMO Dalton is as meh feh bleh as Colt, but with more around him to objectively analyze at this point in his career....which to me = more meh feh bleh.

A related point I've insisted on in all this is the chicken & egg factor of which comes first "the guy that can get it done" or "the winning" b/c a big part of all this comparison crap is based upon subjectivity and double standards in terms of what makes a winner.

There's only 1 SB winner each year, there's only 6 SB winning QBs in the last 8 SBs, so by the standard of the "winner" label there are a shit ton of losers out there, that we should not be looking to duplicate in our search for "our guy". Should every team that doesn't have a SB winning QB right now be looking for a new QB? (<rhetorical)
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby jjgmyers » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:06 pm

When's the last time King Brady's won anything? The last time they had anything resembling a defense there.

Peyton (GOAT) Manning has exactly 1 Super Bowl in 14 years. Just so happened to have his best D that year.

Pittsburgh's been consistently good for how long? You think it's because of a dominating D or QB play?

Baltimore: see above

Everyone wants to blow Rodgers for that Super Bowl last year. GB's d was 2nd overall last year and was just as responsible for their title they had huge to's and defensive scores throughout the playoffs last year. Guess who had the1st ranked D last year? Guess what 2 teams played in the Super Bowl ?

Bree's has 1 Super Bowl and just so happened to have his best D that season. We'll see how he does this week vs a real, quality D.


To answer your question - you get a dominating D and OL and everything else falls into place.
A good OL enables you to run the ball and protect the QB.
A great D where you can rush the passer and stop the run.

I don't care what QB you have. You have those things someone like Joe Flacco could succeed.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:30 pm

You make some valid points but running the ball has little to do with winning in the NFL right now. The biggest need for running the ball: to mix things up, inside the 10 and to help run out the clock when ahead in the playoffs.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby HoodooMan » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:40 pm

jjgmyers wrote:I don't care what QB you have.


leadpipe wrote:Cause in todays NFL the WHOLE game is the quarterback. Everything else is ancillary, including things that were one important like THE ENTIRE DEFENSE.


I think you two should light each other on fire.
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Re: 2012 Draft

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:48 pm

jj - I don't think anyone is saying that defense is completely unimportant, or running is completely unimportant. But a great QB can win with an average team around him. An average QB might win with a great team around him

If you are Aaron Rogers, you can still win the Super Bowl if your defense is average, or your O-Line is average, or your running game is average.

For an average QB to win all of these facets have to be stellar. Flacco is a good example. He has a better defense, Line, and running game than Rogers has, yet GB has a better chance to win this year.

If the Browns got RG3, and it turned out that RG3 is what we hope he is, then you can still win it if your RT is Pashos. And you can still win it if your RBs can't stay healthy. And you can still win it if Sheldon Brown is a CB. Sure, it makes it easier if the team has less holes overall, but it is possible.

But, if you put a perfect team around Colt McCoy, he still has less chance to win the SB than Brees, Brady, Rogers, POS,...etc have no matter who is on their team.
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