SSS and Brees

[Lubber]

3-S,

Conrats to your boy for cracking the record last night. He is a classy guy and well deserved of this record. I do not understand why some media members want to take away from what he accomplished by indicating he was not classy and ran up the score. It is the NFL, stop the guy if you do not want him to score.

[swerb]

What Marino did was much more impressive. Different game today.

This record will be broken 2-3x again in the next 10 years.

It is what it is.

Not to take anything away from Brees. He, Brady, and Rodgers are other-worldly right now. Playing the position so amazingly well. Think all football fans are taking what we're watching right now for granted.

[e0y2e3]

Nate Silver from the NY Times just did the math (passing yardage up 11% on the whole), with the upward trend in passing yardage Marino's season translates to ~5650 yards.

[swerb]

Nate Silver from the NY Times just did the math (passing yardage up 11% on the whole), with the upward trend in passing yardage Marino's season translates to ~5650 yards.

Exactly.

I was young, but I will never forget that shit. Way he was slinging the ball around to Clayton and Duper. Amazing season. Fun to watch.

[Hikohadon]

Nate Silver from the NY Times just did the math (passing yardage up 11% on the whole), with the upward trend in passing yardage Marino's season translates to ~5650 yards.

I would agree with that. Having 2 guys potentially surpass Marino's record in one season is akin to the juicy HR-fest of Maguire/Sosa. Not the juice part, just the I'm-not-as-impressed-as-I-should-be part.

[FUDU]

No question different era and trends etc. Hell just look at attempts.

Plus what often gets forgotten &/or over looked about Dan the Man is his career % was not what you'd expect from a guy that put up his numbers and his record year he only completed 64% of his passes. I'd bet rules played some part in that.

[FUDU]

AN MVP TAKE FROM CHEESELAND. "Regarding the MVP race, if you adjust for the number of attempts Brees has versus Rodgers, Aaron's numbers through 583 attempts (Brees through game 14) would look like this: 5392 yards, 52 touchdowns, seven interceptions. By the end of the season, Brees will have played, by attempts, the equivalent of three-plus games over Rodgers, which speaks to the remarkable efficiency of the Green Bay offense, specifically Rodgers, when looking at scoring offense. Additionally, Brees will have played 11 dome games versus Rodgers' three. Furthermore, the only game Brees played that could be considered poor weather is in Tennessee. Last note, Marino set the record in 564 attempts.''
-- Josh, of Milwaukee

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/12/27/week.16/index.html#ixzz1hnD9JHj5

[Triple-S]

What Marino did was much more impressive. Different game today.

This record will be broken 2-3x again in the next 10 years.

It is what it is.

Not to take anything away from Brees. He, Brady, and Rodgers are other-worldly right now. Playing the position so amazingly well. Think all football fans are taking what we're watching right now for granted.

Was talking to my dad about this last night at a bar.

When Fouts and Marino were posted on the screen about their records he told me it was more impressive, because, like you said, it was a completely different game back then. And, I agree whole-heartidly.

Doesn't mean that I don't however think that Brees is beastly and that he is one of the best in the game (it's hard to place him over Rodgers and vice versa with all due respect to both). So, it's awesome to see Brees break the record!

[Hikohadon]

AN MVP TAKE FROM CHEESELAND. "Regarding the MVP race, if you adjust for the number of attempts Brees has versus Rodgers, Aaron's numbers through 583 attempts (Brees through game 14) would look like this: 5392 yards, 52 touchdowns, seven interceptions. By the end of the season, Brees will have played, by attempts, the equivalent of three-plus games over Rodgers, which speaks to the remarkable efficiency of the Green Bay offense, specifically Rodgers, when looking at scoring offense. Additionally, Brees will have played 11 dome games versus Rodgers' three. Furthermore, the only game Brees played that could be considered poor weather is in Tennessee. Last note, Marino set the record in 564 attempts.''
-- Josh, of Milwaukee

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/12/27/week.16/index.html#ixzz1hnD9JHj5

That's good.

The record should go to the guy with the most yards per pass attempt, minimum 500 attempts. 'Course, today's rules still are a huge advantage in that regard too.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Tom Brady will break the record next week.

[e0y2e3]

Brees' propensity to throw stupid picks makes the conversation between him and Rogers moot. He's just not that good.

[Kingpin74]

What Marino did was much more impressive. Different game today.

This record will be broken 2-3x again in the next 10 years.

It is what it is.

Not to take anything away from Brees. He, Brady, and Rodgers are other-worldly right now. Playing the position so amazingly well. Think all football fans are taking what we're watching right now for granted.

Yep, Brady Rodgers and Brees are obviously in the conversation with a lot of the all timers as far as quality of play. But mid-80's Marino with these 5 yard bump zone and helmet-to-helmet/defenseless receiver rules would put up Arena Football numbers.

[Lubber]

Brees' propensity to throw stupid picks makes the conversation between him and Rogers moot. He's just not that good.

Well, we will probably see another showdown between the two in about a month so we can let their play do the talking.

[e0y2e3]

Yeah dickrider, one match-up will certainly outweigh two years of work from Rogers.

At least we'll always know Tebow has the second best chance in the AFC to beat the Steelers....

[Lubber]

Yeah dickrider, one match-up will certainly outweigh two years of work from Rogers.

At least we'll always know Tebow has the second best chance in the AFC to beat the Steelers....

You love to get your boy Tebow mentioned in as many posts as possible. You appear to be a closet dick rider fanboi as you so eloquently phrase things.

To say that Brees is just not that good does him an injustice. He is right there with Brady and Rodgers

[e0y2e3]

No Lubber, I'm just going to take every single opportunity I get to point out how effing stupid you are.

Brees throws picks like few QBs in the league, takes about 60 attempts a game and no one with half a brain would call him as good as Rogers yet here you are, trotting in here to share your wisdom about another "good guy QB."

Brees is good, very good, but you just have to take it too far.

Just like when you shared the single worst take in the history of this board a couple weeks ago, you know, where you told the world that NO TURNOVER TEBOW had the second best shot in the AFC to beat the Steelers....

BAHAHAHAHAHA

What's next, spending months defending Big Ben for raping chicks at every opportunity?

Every single time you talk about a QB you make yourself look like a bigger dumb ass. Effing manage to make SD look lucid.

But hey, if the Saints beat the Packers Brees is the better QB!!!#$!%!

[Lubber]

No Lubber, I'm just going to take every single opportunity I get to point out how effing stupid you are.

Brees throws picks like few QBs in the league, takes about 60 attempts a game and no one with half a brain would call him as good as Rogers yet here you are, trotting in here to share your wisdom about another "good guy QB."

Brees is good, very good, but you just have to take it too far.


But hey, if the Saints beat the Packers Brees is the better QB!!!#$!%!

OK, well since you are Mr. Crush the Direct TV NFL package, I guess your opinion is the only one that counts on this board.

But I do disagree with you on your opinion that Drew is better if they beat the Packers. Rodgers is definitely a few notches above Drew, especially this year. But neither defense can stop anybody, so it will be a shoot out like the first game this season.

Hopefully in your future rants about dick riding and fanbois and your obsession with Tebowing, try to get RODGERS spelled correctly. Thanks, and please continue with your same ole, same ole stuff. It keeps us entertained on this slow work week.

[e0y2e3]

WHOEVER WINS A SHOOTOUT = BEST QB IN THE LEAGUE!!!

You're a laugh a minute moron.

[Lubber]

WHOEVER WINS A SHOOTOUT = BEST QB IN THE LEAGUE!!!

You're a laugh a minute moron.

Thanks, although it seems that you are not really reading or perhaps not understanding the posts. You said if the Saints win, Drew is the better QB, and I disagreed indicating that RODGERS is a few notches better even if the Saints win. But like I said, keep entertaining us with your exclamation points and #%*=}^'s and BAHAHAHAHAs. Hopefully one day you can present something constructive to this board instead of berating others and your tired old clichés.

[e0y2e3]

No dumbass, I was making fun of your first post in this thread in which I said brees is not as good as Rogers and your answer was "WE'LL SEE IN A FEW WEEKS!!!!!"

Which is, like most of you type, drivel that isn't worthy of the bandwidth it is hogging.

[Lubber]

No dumbass, I was making fun of your first post in this thread in which I said brees is not as good as Rogers and your answer was "WE'LL SEE IN A FEW WEEKS!!!!!"

Which is, like most of you type, drivel that isn't worthy of the bandwidth it is hogging.

Actually my first post was congratulating Brees on the record setting performance. But per usual, why should you let the facts stand in the way of you trying to berate another person on here.

My SECOND post was related to Rodgers and Brees probably going head to head in the playoffs. They played rather equally in the first game versus each other, so why would we expect something different in the playoffs. I merely said we will let their play in that game do the talking. There is a very good chance both QBs have monster games again and it will come down to the final minute of play. I am sorry if you consider that drivel. I will try to include more derogatory comments in my future posts so I can be like you.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Brees breaking the record is just as impressive as Dumb Dan setting it. passing league bullshit be damned.

[LakeErieWarriors]

Brees breaking the record is just as impressive as Dumb Dan setting it. passing league bullshit be damned.

Good point. The record was about a quarter century old for God's sake, taking anything away from that achievement is pretty ludicrous. I was trying to figure out via the web who held the record before Marino and I got lost..... anybody know?

[FUDU]

Dan Fouts is my guess, 80 81 or 82, 4700?

ETA: It was Fouts.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_single_season.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FoutDa00.htm

[e0y2e3]

aoxo did some awesome analysis on this and in reality (and shockingly) when comparing yardage total to the rest of the league's passing stats Namath owns the most impressive passing season of all time.

Not going to steal the analysis for you dolts, but it's both surprising and telling. Brees season when compared to the rest of the league isn't even near Marino, Fouts, Namath, etc.

[FUDU]

Probably his 4000 yard season in the late 60's. Pretty impressive season for the times, even at a clip of 50% completion. I think SN or SI did a story on this in the late 80's early 90's.

[e0y2e3]

Probably his 4000 yard season in the late 60's. Pretty impressive season for the times, even at a clip of 50% completion. I think SN or SI did a story on this in the late 80's early 90's.

Yeah that is the year, he was something like 69% ahead of the league average for yards that year. Brees is living way down around 42% (Marino's season was somewhere between 50 and 55%).

[e0y2e3]

Also, IIRC Fouts is the only guy to go over 50% for a three year clip.

[JCoz]

aoxo did some awesome analysis on this and in reality (and shockingly) when comparing yardage total to the rest of the league's passing stats Namath owns the most impressive passing season of all time.

Not going to steal the analysis for you dolts, but it's both surprising and telling. Brees season when compared to the rest of the league isn't even near Marino, Fouts, Namath, etc.

I think that says less about Namath or Brees and more about the state of the forward pass in offensive schemes in the 60's, personally.

[e0y2e3]

Uhm, it was the late 60s and the guy threw for 4000 yards.

It's not like we are talking about someone who threw for 933 yards the year of Knute invented the pass.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo ... in_the_NFL

Some guys playing now have a long way to go to reach some old dudes

Throwing the ball all over the field is nothing new....its just the approach

The list for throwing for over 400 is even more telling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NF ... _in_a_game

Sorry for the linkage...can't seem to copy anything to this site lately

[JCoz]

Passing games were still coming out of the stone ages, E0. I guess it would depend on what point you are trying to ultimately make by comparing the % of yards over the league for Brees and Namath.

[e0y2e3]

Throwing at a 40% clip above league average with a MEH to super MEH yards per attempt in a league where playing defense is not allowed is less impressive than redefinging the league as a QB in an era when you were actually allowed to play defense.

My point is pretty simple.

Just like Marino passed in an era that featured 11% less passing production than today, those previous achievements were far more impressive than Brees'

[JCoz]

Jurgenson had a better year in a better league.

[FUDU]

Combination of a few things, league rules/trends, coaching & schemes (taking full advantage of said changes) AND guys really putting in the time to be tops at their position.

Brees accomplishment is noteworthy but eye is right, in hindsight & in context it isn't the biggest deal. Payton really deserves a ton of credit for using his resource the best way possible.

This is why so many old timers mention Johnny Us accomplishments as so significant even though they've been passed up, the numbers he put up in that era compared to today...

[JCoz]

Throwing at a 40% clip above league average with a MEH to super MEH yards per attempt in a league where playing defense is not allowed is less impressive than redefinging the league as a QB in an era when you were actually allowed to play defense.

My point is pretty simple.

Just like Marino passed in an era that featured 11% less passing production than today, those previous achievements were far more impressive than Brees'

Ultimately what Brees is doing this season is not as impressive not so much because of the league average but by having all these other QB's right there on Marinos ass too. Its like the HR record that was broken by 2 guys in the same season. Except there are a ton more differences in NFL systems than with hitters in baseball.

But I dont know that I put a whole lot of value in the yards vs league from that time. Namath had a ton of yards, but a few QB's probably had better "years" in 67 than him. I dont know. Not sure yards have ever been a great indicator of QB quality.

I guess I agree 100% that this record falling this year is ho hum, just dont agree so much with that angle. Stupid really to argue it though.

[FUDU]

Also when comparing ears check out TD%s. Have to look deep into it but I think it tells a story.

[e0y2e3]

I swear you argue just to say shit JCoz.

Rogers is having a better year than Brees this year, I didn't even mention it in regards to this specific record.

We are talking about one thing, yardage output as a record. Brees is just another cog in an NFL machine that is producing passing yardage like a cheap whore produces genital warts. There are several ways to look AT THIS SINGLE RECORD. You can take pure raw numbers (WOOHOO!!! WE EVEN ADJUST PERSONAL WELTH FOR INFLATION!!!), you can look at inflation adjusted numbers (Namath's season scores WAY high for this as well) or you can look at performance versus peers. Every way is an acceptable and different angle, with the last two providing the most analytical value.

I mean christ, residual analysis on properties are adjusted for CPI and are typically also measured for performance versus the standards in their market. This is simple basic analytical work and thought.

[JCoz]

Thats why I asked about the point you were ultimately trying to make about the record and this year. The record in and of itself has never impressed me, this isn't baseball, and in the league I grew up watching, you were just as likely to lose a game throwing for over 300 as you were to win it. It usually just meant something was wrong with your running game.

My first comment was that his % doesn't mean as much because of the huge variation in passing schemes at that time. So I don't necessarily buy that angle, but for me ultimately what is anyone even discussing when it comes to this when Namath and Brees weren't even the best QB's anyways? You don't get anything meaningful for passing for more yards. Football isnt driven by records like this.

[Lubber]

Namath got the record back in the 60 because he threw the ball aalmost 500 times that season in an era where mosts guys were in the 250-300 range. He had more picks than TDs, so I just do not find that season all that impressive.

Since the 2002 season, only 2 guys have averaged 300 yards per game for a season (Brady with 300 in 2007 with Moss, and Brees with 316 in 2008). This year, there are 5 guys, including Brees at a whooping 339 a game. Is this just a fluke season? Or is this a sign of things to come moving forward? With all the rule changes giving more and more advantages to the offense, unfortunately, I think it is the future too. I for one, would rather see defense, but I know offense is sexy and sells.

A lot of you guys are making light of Brees' accomplishment. Sure, everybody is chucking the ball around like flag football, but he was able to do this week after week, and has his team on the path to a NFC Championship matchup against an even better QB.

[FUDU]

Lubber re-read the entire thread in regards to Joe Namath, b/c you're missing the entire point.

[FUDU]

Also pay attention to yds/comp when comparing era.

[Lubber]

Also pay attention to yds/comp when comparing era.

OK, so if I used that logic, then my boy Tebooooow is comparable to Joe Namath's season since he is leading the NFL this season in Yds/Comp at 14 yards per comp, just 1.5 yards behind Joe?

I am not missing the point. I am aware that Joe was way ahead of his peers. I was merely pointing out that if a QB in any era attempted over 200 more passes than his peers, he would also likely have much more yardage.

[pup]

Also pay attention to yds/comp when comparing era.

OK, so if I used that logic, then my boy Tebooooow is comparable to Joe Namath's season since he is leading the NFL this season in Yds/Comp at 14 yards per comp, just 1.5 yards behind Joe?

I am not missing the point. I am aware that Joe was way ahead of his peers. I was merely pointing out that if a QB in any era attempted over 200 more passes than his peers, he would also likely have much more yardage.

Unless he was Colt McCoy. Then he would be right around league average for yards.

[e0y2e3]

Also pay attention to yds/comp when comparing era.

OK, so if I used that logic, then my boy Tebooooow is comparable to Joe Namath's season since he is leading the NFL this season in Yds/Comp at 14 yards per comp, just 1.5 yards behind Joe?

I am not missing the point. I am aware that Joe was way ahead of his peers. I was merely pointing out that if a QB in any era attempted over 200 more passes than his peers, he would also likely have much more yardage.

I assume FUDU meant yards/attempt, which is a far better indicator.

But hey, you're a moron so go ahead and jump on a stupid point to try and feel like a non mouth-breather for once.

Fuck you just made me defend FUDU.

I'm showering in bleach now.

[Lubber]

Also pay attention to yds/comp when comparing era.

OK, so if I used that logic, then my boy Tebooooow is comparable to Joe Namath's season since he is leading the NFL this season in Yds/Comp at 14 yards per comp, just 1.5 yards behind Joe?

I am not missing the point. I am aware that Joe was way ahead of his peers. I was merely pointing out that if a QB in any era attempted over 200 more passes than his peers, he would also likely have much more yardage.

I assume FUDU meant yards/attempt, which is a far better indicator.

But hey, you're a moron so go ahead and jump on a stupid point to try and feel like a non mouth-breather for once.

Fuck you just made me defend FUDU.

I'm showering in bleach now.

OK, well, wince you are a mind reader, I am not sure if that is a much better indicator either. Fran T (8.2) and Bart Starr (8.7) were equal and better than Joe that same year. Earl Morrall was a full yard per attempt (9.2) ahead of Joe Willie (8.2) one year after Joe's magical season. Fact is, throughout the years, the yards/attempt has not really changed much. The leader is generally somewhere between 8.2-9.0 yards per attempt. It has been the number of attempts per game that has increased dramatically.

[FUDU]

I actually meant to include Y/A & Y/C, b/c Y/C tells a story as well, and Y/A don't get wildly crazy from era to era as much as Y/C from my quick glance.

But Lubber the thing is Namath didn't throw 200 more passes than all of his peers there were 2 other AFL QBs that threw over 420 passes, 3 NFL QB's did with Jurg throwing 500+. Reaching the 4000 milestone then was a HUGE deal taking everything into consideration.

Took 10+ years to see a 4000yd season again.

[JCoz]

I actually meant to include Y/A & Y/C, b/c Y/C tells a story as well, and Y/A don't get wildly crazy from era to era as much as Y/C from my quick glance.

But Lubber the thing is Namath didn't throw 200 more passes than all of his peers there were 2 other AFL QBs that threw over 420 passes, 3 NFL QB's did with Jurg throwing 500+. Reaching the 4000 milestone then was a HUGE deal taking everything into consideration.

Took 10+ years to see a 4000yd season again.

I don't think it was because there was no one capable of throwing for 4000yds though.

Thats part of why that type of statistical analysis can be pointless or misleading with regards to football.

There are too many moving parts within the goal of trying to win football games to point to something singular like passing yards vs peers and expect to draw some reasonable comparisons between QB's.

[Lubber]

I actually meant to include Y/A & Y/C, b/c Y/C tells a story as well, and Y/A don't get wildly crazy from era to era as much as Y/C from my quick glance.

But Lubber the thing is Namath didn't throw 200 more passes than all of his peers there were 2 other AFL QBs that threw over 420 passes, 3 NFL QB's did with Jurg throwing 500+. Reaching the 4000 milestone then was a HUGE deal taking everything into consideration.

Took 10+ years to see a 4000yd season again.

The top 10 AFl QB's averaged 343 attempts that year, so Joe threw over 150 more times than the average. The top ten NFL QB were at 370. I agree it was a big deal back then. Sonny was only about 250 yards away from 4000 himself. Why, because he threw over 500 times. Those amount of attmepts is what led to the increase in yardage.

[leadpipe]

Bottom line, if you break a prestigious record, that took years to break, well, you should CLEARLY be the best thing going.

The fact hat there's a guy having a better year, and a guy breathing down his neck tell you all you need to know about the current state of the forward pass.

Great year, great QB. Impressive. But I gotta tell ya, don't need any numbers to tell me that this isn't the best season I've ever seen from a QB.