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Money Where Your Mouth Is

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Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:16 pm

Browns-centric of course.

Y'all know the issues and the holes this team has. QB is clearly one of those. And y'all know the importance of that spot.

What I think people should probably admit is the Browns could move up more easily than anyone else to grab whatever pick they want. No one has two 1st round picks as high as Cleveland's as well as the 4th pick of the 2nd round.

There really is no excuse to not get the guy you want. You'd just have to give up the 4th, 22nd-ish and potentially next year's first.

Maybe 4-22-36 and another pick next year.

How high y'all willing to go? Where do you draw the line?

Is 4-22 and next year's 1st rounder worth RGIII or Luck?

First one to include McCoy as part of a deal loses unless you're giving up 4-22 and a high pick next year with McCoy included solely to get him gone.

Gotta have te franchise QB is all I hear. Well, is he out there and worth potentially three 1st round picks? If not, why not?
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:28 pm

If a QB were all the Browns needed, I'd say go ahead and trade up. However, we all know this isn't true. And when a team looks as shitty as the Browns, each pick is more and more critical. Given the current draft order, there's a good possibility that RGIII will be there for the taking at pick #4. Christian Ponder should stay at QB for Minnesota. Same with Bradford in St. Louis. AND these teams really need to fill some gaps NOW and shouldn't really be too interested in trading their picks. Browns really need to gauge the possibilities of teams trading picks to get ahead of them.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:32 pm

4-22-36 and next year's 1st rd pick might get it done to get Luck.

4-22-36 might get it done to move up to 2 and get RG3.

In all reality, you're just swapping the 4 out for the 1 or 2, so you're giving up two 1sts and a 2nd to get Luck, one 1st and a 2nd to get RG3.

If Luck/RG3 do indeed turn out to be Elway/Manning, then hells yeah it's worth it. If Heckert makes that move, I say "Better be right" but have no complaints.

Here are the options, as far as I see it:

1. Sign a FA like Flynn, use the picks on other positions.
2. Go with Colt/Seneca next year, use the picks on other positions.
3. Sit at #4, take RG3 if he gets there, otherwise take BPA, maybe take a QB later.
4. Trade 4-22-36-next year's 1st to get Luck.
5. Trade 4-22-36 to ensure that you get RG3.

I would choose option 3 and take up praying.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:43 pm

Hikohadon wrote:4-22-36 and next year's 1st rd pick might get it done to get Luck.

4-22-36 might get it done to move up to 2 and get RG3.

In all reality, you're just swapping the 4 out for the 1 or 2, so you're giving up two 1sts and a 2nd to get Luck, one 1st and a 2nd to get RG3.

If Luck/RG3 do indeed turn out to be Elway/Manning, then hells yeah it's worth it. If Heckert makes that move, I say "Better be right" but have no complaints.

Here are the options, as far as I see it:

1. Sign a FA like Flynn, use the picks on other positions.
2. Go with Colt/Seneca next year, use the picks on other positions.
3. Sit at #4, take RG3 if he gets there, otherwise take BPA, maybe take a QB later.
4. Trade 4-22-36-next year's 1st to get Luck.
5. Trade 4-22-36 to ensure that you get RG3.

I would choose option 3 and take up praying.


Wondering if the Luck scenario is actually enough the more I think about it. Given the new CBA, the cash layout for that potential franchise QB isn't as steep. To me it means you may have to actually pay more in picks for the relative bargain of the player. If that makes sense.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:05 pm

Hikohadon wrote:3. Sit at #4, take RG3 if he gets there, otherwise take BPA, maybe take a QB later.

I would choose option 3 and take up praying.


Me too. Butch getting cute in trading a high pick to get Winslow actually made Matt Millen look smart.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:11 pm

peeker643 wrote:Wondering if the Luck scenario is actually enough the more I think about it. Given the new CBA, the cash layout for that potential franchise QB isn't as steep. To me it means you may have to actually pay more in picks for the relative bargain of the player. If that makes sense.


Lower contracts might mean A team like Indy may be more likely to have >1 top QB.
Might mean more teams end up with no QB?
Could mean more teams could be desperate in their offer to move up too.

If I were sitting at #1, 4-22-36 and next yr's 1st wouldn't be enough for me to trade Luck away.
Now, if someone were to add the all-time winning QB from the Big12 as part of the deal- DOOOOOH!!!! I lose. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:24 pm

googleeph2 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Wondering if the Luck scenario is actually enough the more I think about it. Given the new CBA, the cash layout for that potential franchise QB isn't as steep. To me it means you may have to actually pay more in picks for the relative bargain of the player. If that makes sense.


Lower contracts might mean A team like Indy may be more likely to have >1 top QB.
Might mean more teams end up with no QB?
Could mean more teams could be desperate in their offer to move up too.

If I were sitting at #1, 4-22-36 and next yr's 1st wouldn't be enough for me to trade Luck away.
Now, if someone were to add the all-time winning QB from the Big12 as part of the deal- DOOOOOH!!!! I lose. ;-) ;) :wink:


Ugh. I think you have to draw the line with this years draft, for two reasons. (At least as far as #1/2 picks go)

1. As has been mentioned, there's a massive void of talent on this team. Upgrading the most important position isn't worth trading TWO years of upgrading any other position. The extra first rounder this year is only palatable because of the decisions last year, and I tend to agree with Peeks that that sort of a package (#4, #22, #36) is better than what any other team is really going to be able to offer. Use it to get whichever QB is available. Just don't make it so that if that QB doesn't pan out or gets injured, the franchise gets set back 2-3 years because of it's inability to draft.

Basically, if youve got a GM that is hellbent on improving through the draft, dont take away the one thing he does. Of all the top 1st round qb's, I dont remember any team having to mortgage their whole future to get him. (Eli, Ryan, Flacco, Cam, Mcnabb, Rodgers, Peyton, POS, etc)

If anything, if the QB is unavailable by trade using the top two OR by waiting for 4, trade the second 1st rounder for a 1st rounder next year, and go into next year with the same ammo.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby mistero » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:27 pm

4,22, next year's 1st plus McCoy.

Hoping to hang on to my second rounder, but it's not a deal breaker to get Luck. Heckert better bring in FA's by the busload though.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Doc » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:43 pm

I have no doubts we lose out...can we safely say we get #4 though? Not sure of the SOS for draft position...looks like so long as we don't win, we can't be worse than #6 (Jax and TB also 4-10).

Only reason I bring this up is because Indy is getting dangerously close to losing the #1 spot. Jax has Tennessee at Tenn tomorrow, with Tenn fighting for a playoff spot, last ditch effort needing a 2 wins and some help. Anyways, Jax isn't good and probably doesn't win tomorrow. That leaves Indy in a position to beat a bad Jax team next week and blow the #1 pick.

I guess I'm saying I can't call my shot until January 2. Jacksonville v. Indy in week 17 is going to be the biggest bad game of the year, unless winning last night already blows Indy's chances at #1. Best case scenarios are...Jax beats Tenn tomorrow, loses to Indy next week, STL will go 2-14 (won't beat Pitt/SF), Minnesota has winnable games against Washington and Chicago, TB has an outside chance of beating Carolina, doubtful against ATL. So, if that happens, we can guarantee 4, STL gets #1, and all of a sudden you've got your choice. Luck/RG3/Bradford. Maybe you offer ATLs pick for Bradford? Keep #4 for a playmaker and hope that reuniting Bradford with Shurmur + getting the #4 overall pick to use on BPA/playmaker...that's my hope.

I would think STL would prefer Luck to Bradford, though I could see them as about the only team willing to deal the #1 for picks/players...and whether it's #4, #5, or #6 overall that we end up with, it's still the best set of picks any team could offer. So, go Indianapolis! Go Colts! Beat Jacksonville! Best case scenario for us!
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:09 pm

I'm glad Hiko wrote that post. It saves me the trouble of having to try to write the same thing, only twice as long and a lot less clear. It also saves you guys from having to read it, so you should thank him too.

I also go with Hiko's #3 option. Hope and pray RG3 falls to #4. The #22 and #36 is just an awful lot to give up to move up 2 measly spots. Like Peek has said multiple times, Heckert's top draft picks these last few years is the one damn thing this organization has done right, I'd hate to take the bat out of his hands.

I reserve the right to change my mind in an hour, and change it back again in 2 hours...off and on until the draft.

Honestly, I think we'll have a lot better idea how things in the draft might shake out as we get closer to it.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:10 pm

peeker643 wrote:Wondering if the Luck scenario is actually enough the more I think about it. Given the new CBA, the cash layout for that potential franchise QB isn't as steep. To me it means you may have to actually pay more in picks for the relative bargain of the player. If that makes sense.


You might very well be right. I was just throwing 4-22-36-next year's 1st as a base since it's only a 3 spot move down, but b/c of the player in question it could easily cost more.

BTW - No matter what the trade, I throw Colt in. If they sign Matt Flynn, I trade Colt then too.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby jerryroche » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Hikohadon wrote:3. Sit at #4, take RG3 if he gets there, otherwise take BPA, maybe take a QB later."


My two cents: This^^^.

A WR to stretch the field, a "possession" WR, competency on the OL, and a breakaway RB will make almost any QB--Colt, RG3 or whomever--look good. That's at least four draft picks/FAs just to upgrade the offense.

A good ball-control offense (which is what the WC is supposed to be) can help a defense immensely. Got none of that this past season. Admittedly, there are also a few holes on defense, but offense is what Heckert should be concentrating on now.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:22 pm

FA Options according to Football's Future (http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html):

1. Drew Brees - I don't see any way in hell he gets out of NO.
2. Matt Flynn - already discussed, a very real option.
3. Alex Smith - My guess is that he re-ups with SF.
4. Kyle Orton - No.
5. Jason Campbell - No.
6. Donovan McNabb - Hell no.

The rest:

Chris Redman - No
Derek Anderson - Ha.
Shaun Hill - Meh
Drew Stanton - double meh
Brady Quinn - Ha.
David Garrard - Still no team?
Luke McCown - How is it that all these ex-Browns QB's aren't under long-term contracts?
Chad Henne - A motherfucking joke.
Sage Rosenfels - Blech.
David Carr - Pass
Mark Brunell - He's still alive?
Kevin O'Connell - wasn't he the Bachelor?
Kyle Boller - Wow, this list is bad
Vince Young - better than the rest of these
Charlie Batch - whatever
Dennis Dixon - one of the better ones here
Byron Leftwich - No
Charlie Whitehurst - After what I saw in the CLE-SEA game? Hell no.
AJ Feeley - AJ no.
Josh Johnson - his music is too touchy-feely.
Rex Grossman - he's the punchline, but what's the joke?

And then some RFA's that we wouldn't want anyway. Tebow, that list is horrific.

So, as far as I can tell, Matt Flynn is the one and ONLY FA option.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:25 pm

Ugh....I need to wait until the order is set, and even the. The combine could alter my decision. The closer we get, the more I want RG3. But I can't say that sitting tight might not be enough just yet. I'll put my money on the table in two weeks.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:27 pm

Honestly I lean with the Hiko and mo option.

I'm just not sure giving up all that for RG3 is the right move. Not b/c I don't think RG3 can't play, but b/c IMO there is still too much question about whether his stock looks good b/c he is a system QB or not. IMO I think he would be an improvement over what we have, but that doesn't mean it is enough in the quest of the needed elite franchise QB.

It's deja vu all over again with our draft, we have so many holes I can't see how they justify giving up a whole draft to fill one hole regardless of the significance of that hole in today's game.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:35 pm

Just to be clear, I'm choosing option 3 b/c I think there's a chance that RG3 falls and I'm gambling on that.

If I knew for CERTAIN that the team at the #3 spot is taking him, I'd have to think seriously about making the trade to #2.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:41 pm

BTW, have you gents seen the FA WR list? Might not need to draft one after all...

Reggie Wayne (IND) - The Colts are an organization that tends to take care of their own. Though they're in a precarious position after signing Manning long term and with Robert Mathis looking for his own deal, the Colts will have to make room. On the bright side, the new CBA couldn't have come at a better time for the Colts who would have been due to dole out a large sum for a potentially high draft pick.

Wes Welker (NE) - Through 5 games, Welker is on pace to break the season record for receptions and shatter the record for receiving yards. It's safe to say heÕs Brady's favorite target on 3rd downs to move the chains and virtually impossible to cover out of the slot due to his quickness, intelligence, and hands. You have to think Brady will make a push to keep him around if the front office shockingly has other plans.

Vincent Jackson (SD) - Partially due to his actions and injuries, the Chargers have been reluctant to sign Vincent Jackson to a long-term extension. If there's any animosity between the two parties, this could be the time where there's a split. Still, the best guess is that the team will pay Jackson like a number one receiver and keep him in San Diego.

DeSean Jackson (PHI) - Jackson is the perfect weapon for the Eagles offense that relies upon big plays. Though the organization was unwilling to cave to his offseason demands, they'll have to think long and hard about doing everything in their power to retain Jackson. Though Maclin may be the better overall receiver, Jackson's vertical ability has a great impact on the way defenses approach the Eagles' offense. Though based on his comments and actions of several months ago, it appears that Jackson could be lured away from Philadelphia with a lucrative offer.

Dwayne Bowe (KC) - One subpar season aside, Dwayne Bowe has emerged into the number one receiver the offense needs. He's a big body and a good route runner with a large catching radius. His most impressive attribute is his body of work around the goal line. He's a complete mismatch with the fade, slant, and back shoulder passes and has shown the propensity to make the acrobatic catches on numerous occasions.

Marques Colston (NO) - When healthy, Colston is a match-up nightmare for any corner. He's an incredibly physical receiver and a sure-handed, polished route runner. When he's available, he brings another dimension to the Saints offense that none of their other talented weapons possess. Though Brees has proven capable of running the offense without him, they're even more dangerous with him.

Steve Johnson (BUF) - Still working on his meager rookie salary, Johnson figures to be a big part of the Bills' long term plans. On a team with few superstars, the Bills can afford to lock up Johnson long term and maintain an effective passing attack. After he and fellow free agent Ryan Fitzpatrick are locked up, Bills fans can breathe easier about the bright future of their offense.

Brandon Lloyd (STL) - Lloyd's next contract will largely depend upon his production over the remainder of the season. Though he hasn't been as explosive and consistent as a year ago when he broke out at age 29, he still appears to be a dangerous receiver with the league's largest catching radius.

Robert Meachem (NO) - Meachem is one of the younger receivers that could be a nice pick-up for an offense with a larger workload to offer. He's a good downfield threat and has nice instincts in the red zone. Unlike Colston, Meachem is more of a luxury for the offense.

Mario Manningham (NYG) - With Manningham and Cruz behind Hakeem Nicks, the Giants have found a nice threesome. They seemed disappointed in Steve Smith's decision to bolt for Philadelphia without the option to match the contact, so there's no question the front office will look to keep the remainder of their receiving corps intact.

Mike Wallace (PIT) - Restricted - No receiver in the league forces safeties back like Wallace. His deep speed is second to none on the perimeter and he capitalizes on it with the ability to run those vertical routes proficiently. He's improving in other areas of his game and is an extremely valuable piece to the Steelers' offense
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:48 pm

Doc wrote:I have no doubts we lose out...can we safely say we get #4 though? Not sure of the SOS for draft position...looks like so long as we don't win, we can't be worse than #6 (Jax and TB also 4-10).

Only reason I bring this up is because Indy is getting dangerously close to losing the #1 spot. Jax has Tennessee at Tenn tomorrow, with Tenn fighting for a playoff spot, last ditch effort needing a 2 wins and some help. Anyways, Jax isn't good and probably doesn't win tomorrow. That leaves Indy in a position to beat a bad Jax team next week and blow the #1 pick.

I guess I'm saying I can't call my shot until January 2. Jacksonville v. Indy in week 17 is going to be the biggest bad game of the year, unless winning last night already blows Indy's chances at #1. Best case scenarios are...Jax beats Tenn tomorrow, loses to Indy next week, STL will go 2-14 (won't beat Pitt/SF), Minnesota has winnable games against Washington and Chicago, TB has an outside chance of beating Carolina, doubtful against ATL. So, if that happens, we can guarantee 4, STL gets #1, and all of a sudden you've got your choice. Luck/RG3/Bradford. Maybe you offer ATLs pick for Bradford? Keep #4 for a playmaker and hope that reuniting Bradford with Shurmur + getting the #4 overall pick to use on BPA/playmaker...that's my hope.

I would think STL would prefer Luck to Bradford, though I could see them as about the only team willing to deal the #1 for picks/players...and whether it's #4, #5, or #6 overall that we end up with, it's still the best set of picks any team could offer. So, go Indianapolis! Go Colts! Beat Jacksonville! Best case scenario for us!


I get this and agree, but either way, the Browns are the only team in the world with a
high 1st and another first to accompnay a high second and the history of sucking and fucking things up so bad that their next first could be a beauty too.

That's what I'm getting at.

If they want that 1-3 pick they, and they alone, have the picks this season and beyond to simply go and get it.

Even if a team was willing to trade it's entire draft for that pick, the Browns is better than anyone else's who might do the same.

That's what I'm talking about in this thread and wondering how far you're willing to go.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:19 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Just to be clear, I'm choosing option 3 b/c I think there's a chance that RG3 falls and I'm gambling on that.

If I knew for CERTAIN that the team at the #3 spot is taking him, I'd have to think seriously about making the trade to #2.

Can't disagree. IMO you take RG3 if he falls to you, if he doesn't b/c very careful what you give up to go get him.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:38 pm

While I'm all for option #3, I can't help but acknowledge that Luck might be the biggest #1 since P. Manning. If he's the franchise QB everyone thinks he is, he would be worth trading up for right?
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:56 pm

Luck or RG3 is not worth what we would have to give up. Especially with this coach and offensive line. It will not make a difference yet until the Browns continue building a better team around whoever is the QB.

trade down and draft Richardson or if we can draft Griffin and not have to move up to get him, with the Falcons picks get the best OL or LB and with the 2nd round pick get the the other best OL or LB.

Then sign Desean jackson and cortland finnegan and then you will have a team that will compete despite the clueless head coach
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:56 pm

NO

I think there is a perception out there that has Browns fans thinking they'll be play-off worthy in a yr or two just by changing QB's

I personally think that is a freaking pipe dream

Also, it's my opinion that RG3 falls into our lap at 4-5 so why trade any high picks on a team still full of suck

After picking RG at 4 I'd rather trade the 2nd and whatever for a higher 1st round pick to grab Michael Floyd

If RG doesn't fall into my lap, I go all in on D

Again, all is dependent on who becomes available in FA

I'm not a Colt pimp...just argumentative...but, if Little progresses, Cribbs is benched and the O gets a REAL!!!! NFL RB with some serious speed, we'll be competitive and a mid first round QB the following yr would not be a bad thing

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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:18 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I'm glad Hiko wrote that post. It saves me the trouble of having to try to write the same thing, only twice as long and a lot less clear. It also saves you guys from having to read it, so you should thank him too.

I also go with Hiko's #3 option. Hope and pray RG3 falls to #4. The #22 and #36 is just an awful lot to give up to move up 2 measly spots. Like Peek has said multiple times, Heckert's top draft picks these last few years is the one damn thing this organization has done right, I'd hate to take the bat out of his hands.

I reserve the right to change my mind in an hour, and change it back again in 2 hours...off and on until the draft.

Honestly, I think we'll have a lot better idea how things in the draft might shake out as we get closer to it.


SD:

Hope and prayer is the strategy we embarked upon in regard to Colt , its not a plan and it won't net you RG3 at 4 either. not with both Minny and Stlouis having the ability to field calls load up with picks drop down and still get essentially what they wanted if they stayed put.


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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby bookelly » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:38 pm

Though I disagree with the whole premise of trading up (Hiko option #3) I think the price you guys have quoted is way to high. We'd only be moving up 2 spots! St. Louis or Minny would gladly take our second #1 and trade down. Hell, they might even do it for that 2nd rounder. Or even far less.

Nobody else can offer the leverage of the #4 + whatever.

And if your MIN at #3 and you're not looking for a QB, trading down one spot...you're gonna get the same player you had at #3.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:46 am

Love RG3.

But I am on the horn to #1 land and offering the top of this year's draft. 4, which could be 3 in another week, Atlanta's pick and 36 (which could be 35 in a week).

If they come asking for next year's #1 I hold off as long as possible, but know in the back of my head I will give it if that is what it takes. By time you have to pull the trigger, you should have a good idea if RG3 is going to be there at 4 (cross fingers it is 3). That helps a ton. You have to make #1 believe you have something working and you are completely happy taking Griffin if it gets to that.

If Tom H is the the pimp he needs to be, a lot of the "other" positions of need can be acquired in later rounds. As noted, the WR options in FA can handle that. So on offense all you are really looking for in the draft is a RT. Since I am running the show, I am resigning Hillis, and taking another RB later on in draft as Montario insurance.

Taking Andrew Luck does not make you a playoff contender in 2012. But it puts you on the path. For the first time in a real long time.

So I guess my answer is do everything I can at an absolute max price of 4 draft picks to get Luck, but hold steady with my pick and hope for RG3 if Indy isn't selling.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:49 am

pup wrote:Love RG3.

But I am on the horn to #1 land and offering the top of this year's draft. 4, which could be 3 in another week, Atlanta's pick and 36 (which could be 35 in a week).

If they come asking for next year's #1 I hold off as long as possible, but know in the back of my head I will give it if that is what it takes. By time you have to pull the trigger, you should have a good idea if RG3 is going to be there at 4 (cross fingers it is 3). That helps a ton. You have to make #1 believe you have something working and you are completely happy taking Griffin if it gets to that.

If Tom H is the the pimp he needs to be, a lot of the "other" positions of need can be acquired in later rounds. As noted, the WR options in FA can handle that. So on offense all you are really looking for in the draft is a RT. Since I am running the show, I am resigning Hillis, and taking another RB later on in draft as Montario insurance.

Taking Andrew Luck does not make you a playoff contender in 2012. But it puts you on the path. For the first time in a real long time.

So I guess my answer is do everything I can at an absolute max price of 4 draft picks to get Luck, but hold steady with my pick and hope for RG3 if Indy isn't selling.



SD:

I don't even deal with Indy .

4 #1's is just too much and if I target RG3 I'm making my deal with St Louis with both our number ones to move down one or two spots , which Washington or Miami can't top because they don't have multiple #1's in the same year they'd have to drum up three #1's or better,
to proffer commensurate compensation.

and

While Luck is the consensus #1 and Indy bound , RG3 is better for our system with the pressure his athleticism can put on the edges his quicker release and his better accuracy both short and deep.


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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:31 am

SD.

If anyone has ever been "made" for our system and our situation, it is Andrew Luck.

I really do like Griffin. A lot. But the only reason he is close in some eyes to Luck is they have done the whole spent a year looking for fatal flaws on Luck while they are still just getting to know RG3.

As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pod2dawg » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:27 pm

I am on board with Hiko's #3. I also like Flynn if we miss out on RGIII ; with Dixon a close 2nd. We have to spend money next year in FA market so the Walrus better get Lerner's fucking checkbook out and fill some holes.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:43 pm

pup wrote:As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.


I hope you don't really believe that pup. Not saying it is impossible, but it is highly unlikely, and down right not probable in the least. Do I think Luck will be head & shoulders better than Colt McCoy, sure I do. I also believe it will take a little time for Luck to get his feet underneath him. The only advantage to having Luck this Sunday would be his arm strength, otherwise he has no real measurable advantages over Colt at this moment in time, comparing apples to apples competition. Can he close that gap and quickly (with maybe a few weeks of practice and a few real games) IMO yes, but not as you state.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:36 pm

pup wrote:SD.

If anyone has ever been "made" for our system and our situation, it is Andrew Luck.

I really do like Griffin. A lot. But the only reason he is close in some eyes to Luck is they have done the whole spent a year looking for fatal flaws on Luck while they are still just getting to know RG3.

As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.


SD:

You'll get no argument from me that Luck or RG3 would make a world of difference on this team .

I just don't feel the difference of four number ones to get Luck justifies the better bargain to get RG3 for half of that , all things being equal .

If one guy is Tom Brady and the other is an Aaron Rodgers , type of a talent , you still net a Champ , so I'd just rather not have to fork over the extra two ducats .

No way I kick either one out of bed , and I'll take either in seal and brown as long as we net one .

The cachet of LUCK is super appealing , but in the end only St louis will trade , as Indy keeps him JMHO , which means RG3 is ours if we step the fuck up and pay for him.


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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:16 pm

FUDU wrote:
pup wrote:As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.


I hope you don't really believe that pup. Not saying it is impossible, but it is highly unlikely, and down right not probable in the least. Do I think Luck will be head & shoulders better than Colt McCoy, sure I do. I also believe it will take a little time for Luck to get his feet underneath him. The only advantage to having Luck this Sunday would be his arm strength, otherwise he has no real measurable advantages over Colt at this moment in time, comparing apples to apples competition. Can he close that gap and quickly (with maybe a few weeks of practice and a few real games) IMO yes, but not as you state.


Other than terminology he is running the WCO right now. And performs it better than the guys we have.

We have the worst QB play in the entire league. That is what I truly believe. And he is better today, has more responsibility at the line, makes better decisions, has a better arm and is more accurate. I would take him with 1 week of practice over what we have.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:40 am

pup wrote:We have the worst QB play in the entire league. That is what I truly believe.


I'm not sure how you could come to that assessment, considering we've already played the Colts, Seahawks, and Jaguars. You haven't seen a Redskins game either?
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:06 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
pup wrote:We have the worst QB play in the entire league. That is what I truly believe.


I'm not sure how you could come to that assessment, considering we've already played the Colts, Seahawks, and Jaguars. You haven't seen a Redskins game either?


Colts have Manning.
I would take Tavaris Jackson over what we have. No doubt.
Blaine Gabbert, ok, maybe we have the 2nd worst QB situation in the league.
Rex > Colt Wallace.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby mistero » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:46 am

According to the draft pick value system , it would take at least our other number 1 from Atlanta (value if pick 25 is 740) and next years number one (always worth less than current year picks...maybe worth 800 points).

Our 4th pick 1800 plus our 25th pick 740 plus 2012 1st rounder est 800=
3340

1
3000

2
2600

3
2200

4
1800
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:11 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
pup wrote:SD.

If anyone has ever been "made" for our system and our situation, it is Andrew Luck.

I really do like Griffin. A lot. But the only reason he is close in some eyes to Luck is they have done the whole spent a year looking for fatal flaws on Luck while they are still just getting to know RG3.

As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.



SD:

You'll get no argument from me that Luck or RG3 would make a world of difference on this team .

I just don't feel the difference of four number ones to get Luck justifies the better bargain to get RG3 for half of that , all things being equal .

If one guy is Tom Brady and the other is an Aaron Rodgers , type of a talent , you still net a Champ , so I'd just rather not have to fork over the extra two ducats .

No way I kick either one out of bed , and I'll take either in seal and brown as long as we net one .

The cachet of LUCK is super appealing , but in the end only St louis will trade , as Indy keeps him JMHO , which means RG3 is ours if we step the fuck up and pay for him.


SoulDawg


This is pretty much it. I seriously doubt Indy trades out of the number 1 overall. I also don't believe you can sit at #4 and hope RGIII falls - need to be more aggressive.

So if you still believe in the draft value chart thingy from Jimmuh, then you have the Browns trading up from #4 (1,800 points) to #2 (2,600 points) which means they would need to include somewhere around the #21 (800 points).

Which is almost exactly where Atlanta winds up. Almost too good to be true. Which means it probably is.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:12 pm

mistero wrote:According to the draft pick value system , it would take at least our other number 1 from Atlanta (value if pick 25 is 740) and next years number one (always worth less than current year picks...maybe worth 800 points).

Our 4th pick 1800 plus our 25th pick 740 plus 2012 1st rounder est 800=
3340

1
3000

2
2600

3
2200

4
1800


Right in the wheelhouse for picks 2-3 with both firsts (and maybe a second) for the 2/3 picks, maybe throw Colt in as a backup to keep the second rounder. Maybe.

Either way, gotta do what it takes with this years draft....without mortgaging the future.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:36 pm

Sorry but trading away 2 first and anything else in the second IS mortgaging away the future. Make a legit effort to move up for Luck if you can, wait to see if RG3 falls to you at 4, if not use this draft to build.

pup, sorry but Luck isn't going to perform well right out the gate with this line and this group of play makers. Over time can he help improve the play of everyone around him, sure, but not in the scenario you paint, dude would look like crap. You under estimate the experience Colt has playing against professionals compared to the lack of experience Luck has, 90% of the opposition Luck plays against are never going to play a professional football game.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:48 pm

I just don't know. I'd like to think that RG3 will fall to #4 and we can grab him there, but the more I think about it, if we have to trade up to get him then that's what we should do. If we come out of this draft without RG3 it will be a failure, no matter how many other holes are filled.

Put me on SD and Matt's trade up bandwagon...for now.

And I'm not saying that because RG3 is some magic QB that we absolutely have to have. He might be, but you can never be sure about anything. I'm saying that because we have no idea when we will ever be in this strong of a position again.

RG3 might be flavor of the month, but he's one of the few QBs available to us that has the potential to be elite. We are the one team, right now, with the bargaining power to call our own shot on this. If we want RG3, there's really no team that can stop us.

Next year...what if we're picking 12th or something with no second 1st round pick? We can't fire a gun without bullets. This year, we have a fuckin' bazooka.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:52 pm

FUDU wrote:Sorry but trading away 2 first and anything else in the second IS mortgaging away the future. Make a legit effort to move up for Luck if you can, wait to see if RG3 falls to you at 4, if not use this draft to build.

pup, sorry but Luck isn't going to perform well right out the gate with this line and this group of play makers. Over time can he help improve the play of everyone around him, sure, but not in the scenario you paint, dude would look like crap. You under estimate the experience Colt has playing against professionals compared to the lack of experience Luck has, 90% of the opposition Luck plays against are never going to play a professional football game.


Please.

Colt McCoy sucks. That is reason 1A why this football team sucks. Andrew Luck is better rolling out of bed after a New Years Bender than Colt ever will be.

He doesn't have to perform "well" as you put it to be an upgrade to the position over the current. He has to be awake.

Maybe he makes the playmakers better? No way, right. It has to be the playmakers making Colt suck. Because you have watched hours of coach tape to know he is making the right reads and delivering the ball on time?

Maybe Colt is the problem? Possibly? Maybe the fact he can't consistently beat anyone deep putting 11 defenders within 10 yards makes it harder for those playmakers to make plays? Maybe back hip throws are killing YAC? Maybe dancing around in the pocket before the rush comes makes him unable to hit the first open guy?

Competent QB play is the first step to recovery.

What are you taking with #21? WR? Sign a FA.
What are you taking at #36? RT? Sign a FA.

You can't do that with a QB. You will not sign one in FA worth a damn.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:53 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I just don't know. I'd like to think that RG3 will fall to #4 and we can grab him there, but the more I think about it, if we have to trade up to get him then that's what we should do. If we come out of this draft without RG3 it will be a failure, no matter how many other holes are filled.

Put me on SD and Matt's trade up bandwagon...for now.

And I'm not saying that because RG3 is some magic QB that we absolutely have to have. He might be, but you can never be sure about anything. I'm saying that because we have no idea when we will ever be in this strong of a position again.

RG3 might be flavor of the month, but he's one of the few QBs available to us that has the potential to be elite. We are the one team, right now, with the bargaining power to call our own shot on this. If we want RG3, there's really no team that can stop us.

Next year...what if we're picking 12th or something with no second 1st round pick? We can't fire a gun without bullets. This year, we have a fuckin' bazooka.

At what cost though mo?

Here is my thing, I have no problem acknowledging Colt isn't "The Guy", but with just a little help he could easily be "A Guy" good enough to hold down the fort and allow you to NOT have to mortgage the future when in fact you do have so many holes to fill.

I see it as there is such a thing as trading up, and then there is trading up. No way in hell do I trade away 3 high picks to move up 1-2 spots to take a guy that isn't the sure fire thing in this draft (RG3), when those picks could improve the team enough that maybe next year you have so few holes that making such a move to fill your QB needs makes more sense.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:55 pm

So I see you're back on your pup agenda in regards to Colt and QB's in general, what ever. I'll agree to disagree simply due to the sake of you're not even being objective now.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby pup » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:57 pm

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OK QB PLAY IN TODAY'S NFL. YOU ARE EITHER A STUD AND SUPER BOWL LEADING MATERIAL OR YOU ARE NOT. JOE FLACCO, MARK SANCHEZ, ANDY DALTON, ALEX SMITH..............WILL ALL DO A NICE JOB OF GETTING YOU INTO THE PLAYOFFS. BUT IF YOU WANT TO WIN A SUPER BOWL YOU NEED TO GET A STUD. I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT BEING RESPECTABLE. I CARE ABOUT WINNING A SUPER BOWL.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:02 pm

FUDU wrote:At what cost though mo?

Here is my thing, I have no problem acknowledging Colt isn't "The Guy", but with just a little help he could easily be "A Guy" good enough to hold down the fort and allow you to NOT have to mortgage the future when in fact you do have so many holes to fill.

I see it as there is such a thing as trading up, and then there is trading up. No way in hell do I trade away 3 high picks to move up 1-2 spots to take a guy that isn't the sure fire thing in this draft (RG3), when those picks could improve the team enough that maybe next year you have so few holes that making such a move to fill your QB needs makes more sense.


You're right, I get that, and that is what I struggle with. It seems ludicrous to spend so much to trade up a few spots. You're saying fill holes this year (if RG3 doesnt' naturally fall to you) and fire that gun next year with a trade up to get the franchise QB.

I think that's a lot easier said than done. What will we have next year to offer in a trade up scenario to get that QB? I don't know what QB's we'll be talking about other than Barkley, but I know that if Barkley is #1 next year, who's to say we can even put together an attractive enough offer to make that move up.

Like Hiko says, there are a lot of crap teams, I'm of the opinion that we will be moving up the crap pile a little bit next year, no matter what we do. That just puts more teams closer to the real prize which is a potential elite QB.

I'd just hate to be left holding our bags at #4 without a QB., and no guarantee we can just "go get the QB next year."
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:03 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I'm of the opinion that we will be moving up the crap pile a little bit next year, no matter what we do.


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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Triple-S » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:03 pm

pup wrote:THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OK QB PLAY IN TODAY'S NFL. YOU ARE EITHER A STUD AND SUPER BOWL LEADING MATERIAL OR YOU ARE NOT. JOE FLACCO, MARK SANCHEZ, ANDY DALTON, ALEX SMITH..............WILL ALL DO A NICE JOB OF GETTING YOU INTO THE PLAYOFFS. BUT IF YOU WANT TO WIN A SUPER BOWL YOU NEED TO GET A STUD. I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT BEING RESPECTABLE. I CARE ABOUT WINNING A SUPER BOWL.


I would take either at this point.

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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:19 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:I'm of the opinion that we will be moving up the crap pile a little bit next year, no matter what we do.


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:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:


Not because we will be so much better, but it will be almost ipmossible not to. Look how fucking attrociously bad we were this year, and we're still only picking #4. Fill 3 holes with 3 high picks, give Colt another year in the system, give Paddy another year...this will definitely imporve. Not a lot. And there will definitely be a plateau that keeps us squarely in the realm of suck in that scenario.

But I don't see how you think we are more likely to be picking top 4 next year as opposed to #8-10, no matter what happens in the draft and this offseason.

Christ, you act like I said we'd be a playoff contender.

Nobody likes you.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:20 pm

After 10 years of god-awful, I just want to be respectable. Reasonable goals.
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:28 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Not because we will be so much better, but it will be almost ipmossible not to. Look how fucking attrociously bad we were this year, and we're still only picking #4. Fill 3 holes with 3 high picks, give Colt another year in the system, give Paddy another year...this will definitely imporve. Not a lot. And there will definitely be a plateau that keeps us squarely in the realm of suck in that scenario.

But I don't see how you think we are more likely to be picking top 4 next year as opposed to #8-10, no matter what happens in the draft and this offseason.

Christ, you act like I said we'd be a playoff contender.

Nobody likes you.


1999 - 1
2000 - 1
2001 - 3
2002 - 16
2003 - 21
2004 - 6
2005 - 3
2006 - 13
2007 - 3
2008 - 22
2009 - 5
2010 - 7
2011 - 6

^ Browns draft position since the rebirth (trades not accounted for).

I'm not disagreeing with your logic and fully support getting an elite QB ASAP, but something tells me this shithole will find a way to draft in the top five again very soon.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:35 pm

FUDU wrote:I see it as there is such a thing as trading up, and then there is trading up. No way in hell do I trade away 3 high picks to move up 1-2 spots to take a guy that isn't the sure fire thing in this draft (RG3), when those picks could improve the team enough that maybe next year you have so few holes that making such a move to fill your QB needs makes more sense.


You do realize that one of those high picks is our own at #4? So this concept of "three high picks" is a fallacy. Unless you plan on not using our own pick and banking it for a rainy day?

The net cost to the Browns, in this hypothetical scenario, IS ONE ADDITIONAL PICK - THE ONE WE GOT FROM THE FALCONS WHICH SHOULD FALL AROUND 21-23.

That's it. One additional pick, and an extra pick at that. Well worth the risk to move up to #2 overall to grab RGIII. If the Rams or whomever is in the 2 hole says "no" then you have a decision on how much more you want to offer. But let's please stop the "mortgaging the future" because we would need to use the #21 overall.
I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever.
- CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team
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Re: Money Where Your Mouth Is

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:36 pm

Wow. That is...impressive isnt' it. (e0y's list)

My guess is that standing pat in the draft, with the aptitude that Heckert has shown at the top of the last 2 drafts, will get us to around 6 wins next year, which will get us drafting around 10. Just a guess.

Honestly, and people don't want to hear it, if we don't get RG3 in this draft, and we don't trade up to get him, we might be better off trading down again. I know we need elite playmakers. I get that. But we need the QB more than anything else.

If we don't get our QB, we are better off adding another 1st rounder next year by trading down this year. It will put us in a better position next year to draft the QB we need.

Of course this scenario sucks balls and puts us behind yet another year, but I'm not sure were the QB comes from, if not the top of the draft. Another bonus with 2 1st rounders next year is we would get to have this same exact conversation again next year. Good times! :thumb up:
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