Moderators: peeker643, jb, swerb, pup
by peeker643 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:16 pm
by LakeErieWarriors » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:28 pm
by Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:32 pm
by peeker643 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:43 pm
Hikohadon wrote:4-22-36 and next year's 1st rd pick might get it done to get Luck.4-22-36 might get it done to move up to 2 and get RG3.In all reality, you're just swapping the 4 out for the 1 or 2, so you're giving up two 1sts and a 2nd to get Luck, one 1st and a 2nd to get RG3.If Luck/RG3 do indeed turn out to be Elway/Manning, then hells yeah it's worth it. If Heckert makes that move, I say "Better be right" but have no complaints.Here are the options, as far as I see it:1. Sign a FA like Flynn, use the picks on other positions.2. Go with Colt/Seneca next year, use the picks on other positions.3. Sit at #4, take RG3 if he gets there, otherwise take BPA, maybe take a QB later.4. Trade 4-22-36-next year's 1st to get Luck.5. Trade 4-22-36 to ensure that you get RG3.I would choose option 3 and take up praying.
by googleeph2 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:05 pm
Hikohadon wrote:3. Sit at #4, take RG3 if he gets there, otherwise take BPA, maybe take a QB later.I would choose option 3 and take up praying.
by googleeph2 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:11 pm
peeker643 wrote:Wondering if the Luck scenario is actually enough the more I think about it. Given the new CBA, the cash layout for that potential franchise QB isn't as steep. To me it means you may have to actually pay more in picks for the relative bargain of the player. If that makes sense.
by Gradysmanldy » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:24 pm
googleeph2 wrote:peeker643 wrote:Wondering if the Luck scenario is actually enough the more I think about it. Given the new CBA, the cash layout for that potential franchise QB isn't as steep. To me it means you may have to actually pay more in picks for the relative bargain of the player. If that makes sense.Lower contracts might mean A team like Indy may be more likely to have >1 top QB.Might mean more teams end up with no QB?Could mean more teams could be desperate in their offer to move up too.If I were sitting at #1, 4-22-36 and next yr's 1st wouldn't be enough for me to trade Luck away.Now, if someone were to add the all-time winning QB from the Big12 as part of the deal- DOOOOOH!!!! I lose.
by mistero » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:27 pm
by Doc » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:43 pm
by motherscratcher » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:09 pm
by Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:10 pm
by jerryroche » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:21 pm
Hikohadon wrote:3. Sit at #4, take RG3 if he gets there, otherwise take BPA, maybe take a QB later."
by Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:22 pm
by JCoz » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:25 pm
by FUDU » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:27 pm
by Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:35 pm
by Hikohadon » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:41 pm
Reggie Wayne (IND) - The Colts are an organization that tends to take care of their own. Though they're in a precarious position after signing Manning long term and with Robert Mathis looking for his own deal, the Colts will have to make room. On the bright side, the new CBA couldn't have come at a better time for the Colts who would have been due to dole out a large sum for a potentially high draft pick. Wes Welker (NE) - Through 5 games, Welker is on pace to break the season record for receptions and shatter the record for receiving yards. It's safe to say heÕs Brady's favorite target on 3rd downs to move the chains and virtually impossible to cover out of the slot due to his quickness, intelligence, and hands. You have to think Brady will make a push to keep him around if the front office shockingly has other plans. Vincent Jackson (SD) - Partially due to his actions and injuries, the Chargers have been reluctant to sign Vincent Jackson to a long-term extension. If there's any animosity between the two parties, this could be the time where there's a split. Still, the best guess is that the team will pay Jackson like a number one receiver and keep him in San Diego. DeSean Jackson (PHI) - Jackson is the perfect weapon for the Eagles offense that relies upon big plays. Though the organization was unwilling to cave to his offseason demands, they'll have to think long and hard about doing everything in their power to retain Jackson. Though Maclin may be the better overall receiver, Jackson's vertical ability has a great impact on the way defenses approach the Eagles' offense. Though based on his comments and actions of several months ago, it appears that Jackson could be lured away from Philadelphia with a lucrative offer. Dwayne Bowe (KC) - One subpar season aside, Dwayne Bowe has emerged into the number one receiver the offense needs. He's a big body and a good route runner with a large catching radius. His most impressive attribute is his body of work around the goal line. He's a complete mismatch with the fade, slant, and back shoulder passes and has shown the propensity to make the acrobatic catches on numerous occasions. Marques Colston (NO) - When healthy, Colston is a match-up nightmare for any corner. He's an incredibly physical receiver and a sure-handed, polished route runner. When he's available, he brings another dimension to the Saints offense that none of their other talented weapons possess. Though Brees has proven capable of running the offense without him, they're even more dangerous with him. Steve Johnson (BUF) - Still working on his meager rookie salary, Johnson figures to be a big part of the Bills' long term plans. On a team with few superstars, the Bills can afford to lock up Johnson long term and maintain an effective passing attack. After he and fellow free agent Ryan Fitzpatrick are locked up, Bills fans can breathe easier about the bright future of their offense. Brandon Lloyd (STL) - Lloyd's next contract will largely depend upon his production over the remainder of the season. Though he hasn't been as explosive and consistent as a year ago when he broke out at age 29, he still appears to be a dangerous receiver with the league's largest catching radius. Robert Meachem (NO) - Meachem is one of the younger receivers that could be a nice pick-up for an offense with a larger workload to offer. He's a good downfield threat and has nice instincts in the red zone. Unlike Colston, Meachem is more of a luxury for the offense. Mario Manningham (NYG) - With Manningham and Cruz behind Hakeem Nicks, the Giants have found a nice threesome. They seemed disappointed in Steve Smith's decision to bolt for Philadelphia without the option to match the contact, so there's no question the front office will look to keep the remainder of their receiving corps intact. Mike Wallace (PIT) - Restricted - No receiver in the league forces safeties back like Wallace. His deep speed is second to none on the perimeter and he capitalizes on it with the ability to run those vertical routes proficiently. He's improving in other areas of his game and is an extremely valuable piece to the Steelers' offense
by peeker643 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:48 pm
Doc wrote:I have no doubts we lose out...can we safely say we get #4 though? Not sure of the SOS for draft position...looks like so long as we don't win, we can't be worse than #6 (Jax and TB also 4-10). Only reason I bring this up is because Indy is getting dangerously close to losing the #1 spot. Jax has Tennessee at Tenn tomorrow, with Tenn fighting for a playoff spot, last ditch effort needing a 2 wins and some help. Anyways, Jax isn't good and probably doesn't win tomorrow. That leaves Indy in a position to beat a bad Jax team next week and blow the #1 pick. I guess I'm saying I can't call my shot until January 2. Jacksonville v. Indy in week 17 is going to be the biggest bad game of the year, unless winning last night already blows Indy's chances at #1. Best case scenarios are...Jax beats Tenn tomorrow, loses to Indy next week, STL will go 2-14 (won't beat Pitt/SF), Minnesota has winnable games against Washington and Chicago, TB has an outside chance of beating Carolina, doubtful against ATL. So, if that happens, we can guarantee 4, STL gets #1, and all of a sudden you've got your choice. Luck/RG3/Bradford. Maybe you offer ATLs pick for Bradford? Keep #4 for a playmaker and hope that reuniting Bradford with Shurmur + getting the #4 overall pick to use on BPA/playmaker...that's my hope. I would think STL would prefer Luck to Bradford, though I could see them as about the only team willing to deal the #1 for picks/players...and whether it's #4, #5, or #6 overall that we end up with, it's still the best set of picks any team could offer. So, go Indianapolis! Go Colts! Beat Jacksonville! Best case scenario for us!
by FUDU » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:19 pm
Hikohadon wrote:Just to be clear, I'm choosing option 3 b/c I think there's a chance that RG3 falls and I'm gambling on that.If I knew for CERTAIN that the team at the #3 spot is taking him, I'd have to think seriously about making the trade to #2.
by LakeErieWarriors » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:38 pm
by Cleveland Matt » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:56 pm
by Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:56 pm
by SoulDawg74 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:18 pm
motherscratcher wrote:I'm glad Hiko wrote that post. It saves me the trouble of having to try to write the same thing, only twice as long and a lot less clear. It also saves you guys from having to read it, so you should thank him too.I also go with Hiko's #3 option. Hope and pray RG3 falls to #4. The #22 and #36 is just an awful lot to give up to move up 2 measly spots. Like Peek has said multiple times, Heckert's top draft picks these last few years is the one damn thing this organization has done right, I'd hate to take the bat out of his hands.I reserve the right to change my mind in an hour, and change it back again in 2 hours...off and on until the draft.Honestly, I think we'll have a lot better idea how things in the draft might shake out as we get closer to it.
by bookelly » Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:38 pm
by pup » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:46 am
by SoulDawg74 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:49 am
pup wrote:Love RG3.But I am on the horn to #1 land and offering the top of this year's draft. 4, which could be 3 in another week, Atlanta's pick and 36 (which could be 35 in a week).If they come asking for next year's #1 I hold off as long as possible, but know in the back of my head I will give it if that is what it takes. By time you have to pull the trigger, you should have a good idea if RG3 is going to be there at 4 (cross fingers it is 3). That helps a ton. You have to make #1 believe you have something working and you are completely happy taking Griffin if it gets to that.If Tom H is the the pimp he needs to be, a lot of the "other" positions of need can be acquired in later rounds. As noted, the WR options in FA can handle that. So on offense all you are really looking for in the draft is a RT. Since I am running the show, I am resigning Hillis, and taking another RB later on in draft as Montario insurance.Taking Andrew Luck does not make you a playoff contender in 2012. But it puts you on the path. For the first time in a real long time.So I guess my answer is do everything I can at an absolute max price of 4 draft picks to get Luck, but hold steady with my pick and hope for RG3 if Indy isn't selling.
by pup » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:31 am
by pod2dawg » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:27 pm
by FUDU » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:43 pm
pup wrote:As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.
by SoulDawg74 » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:36 pm
pup wrote:SD.If anyone has ever been "made" for our system and our situation, it is Andrew Luck.I really do like Griffin. A lot. But the only reason he is close in some eyes to Luck is they have done the whole spent a year looking for fatal flaws on Luck while they are still just getting to know RG3.As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.
by pup » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:16 pm
FUDU wrote:pup wrote:As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.I hope you don't really believe that pup. Not saying it is impossible, but it is highly unlikely, and down right not probable in the least. Do I think Luck will be head & shoulders better than Colt McCoy, sure I do. I also believe it will take a little time for Luck to get his feet underneath him. The only advantage to having Luck this Sunday would be his arm strength, otherwise he has no real measurable advantages over Colt at this moment in time, comparing apples to apples competition. Can he close that gap and quickly (with maybe a few weeks of practice and a few real games) IMO yes, but not as you state.
by Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:40 am
pup wrote:We have the worst QB play in the entire league. That is what I truly believe.
by pup » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:06 am
Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:pup wrote:We have the worst QB play in the entire league. That is what I truly believe.I'm not sure how you could come to that assessment, considering we've already played the Colts, Seahawks, and Jaguars. You haven't seen a Redskins game either?
by mistero » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:46 am
by mattvan1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:11 pm
SoulDawg74 wrote:pup wrote:SD.If anyone has ever been "made" for our system and our situation, it is Andrew Luck.I really do like Griffin. A lot. But the only reason he is close in some eyes to Luck is they have done the whole spent a year looking for fatal flaws on Luck while they are still just getting to know RG3.As far as being a pro, NFL QB, Andrew Luck could play against the Steelers Sunday and give the Browns a better chance to win than they have. If today was his first practice. I cannot say the same about RG3.SD:You'll get no argument from me that Luck or RG3 would make a world of difference on this team .I just don't feel the difference of four number ones to get Luck justifies the better bargain to get RG3 for half of that , all things being equal .If one guy is Tom Brady and the other is an Aaron Rodgers , type of a talent , you still net a Champ , so I'd just rather not have to fork over the extra two ducats .No way I kick either one out of bed , and I'll take either in seal and brown as long as we net one .The cachet of LUCK is super appealing , but in the end only St louis will trade , as Indy keeps him JMHO , which means RG3 is ours if we step the fuck up and pay for him.SoulDawg
by Gradysmanldy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:12 pm
mistero wrote:According to the draft pick value system , it would take at least our other number 1 from Atlanta (value if pick 25 is 740) and next years number one (always worth less than current year picks...maybe worth 800 points).Our 4th pick 1800 plus our 25th pick 740 plus 2012 1st rounder est 800=33401 3000 2 2600 3 2200 4 1800
by FUDU » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:36 pm
by motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:48 pm
by pup » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:52 pm
FUDU wrote:Sorry but trading away 2 first and anything else in the second IS mortgaging away the future. Make a legit effort to move up for Luck if you can, wait to see if RG3 falls to you at 4, if not use this draft to build.pup, sorry but Luck isn't going to perform well right out the gate with this line and this group of play makers. Over time can he help improve the play of everyone around him, sure, but not in the scenario you paint, dude would look like crap. You under estimate the experience Colt has playing against professionals compared to the lack of experience Luck has, 90% of the opposition Luck plays against are never going to play a professional football game.
by FUDU » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:53 pm
motherscratcher wrote:I just don't know. I'd like to think that RG3 will fall to #4 and we can grab him there, but the more I think about it, if we have to trade up to get him then that's what we should do. If we come out of this draft without RG3 it will be a failure, no matter how many other holes are filled.Put me on SD and Matt's trade up bandwagon...for now.And I'm not saying that because RG3 is some magic QB that we absolutely have to have. He might be, but you can never be sure about anything. I'm saying that because we have no idea when we will ever be in this strong of a position again. RG3 might be flavor of the month, but he's one of the few QBs available to us that has the potential to be elite. We are the one team, right now, with the bargaining power to call our own shot on this. If we want RG3, there's really no team that can stop us.Next year...what if we're picking 12th or something with no second 1st round pick? We can't fire a gun without bullets. This year, we have a fuckin' bazooka.
by FUDU » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:55 pm
by pup » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:57 pm
by motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:02 pm
FUDU wrote:At what cost though mo?Here is my thing, I have no problem acknowledging Colt isn't "The Guy", but with just a little help he could easily be "A Guy" good enough to hold down the fort and allow you to NOT have to mortgage the future when in fact you do have so many holes to fill. I see it as there is such a thing as trading up, and then there is trading up. No way in hell do I trade away 3 high picks to move up 1-2 spots to take a guy that isn't the sure fire thing in this draft (RG3), when those picks could improve the team enough that maybe next year you have so few holes that making such a move to fill your QB needs makes more sense.
by e0y2e3 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:03 pm
motherscratcher wrote:I'm of the opinion that we will be moving up the crap pile a little bit next year, no matter what we do.
by Triple-S » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:03 pm
pup wrote:THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS OK QB PLAY IN TODAY'S NFL. YOU ARE EITHER A STUD AND SUPER BOWL LEADING MATERIAL OR YOU ARE NOT. JOE FLACCO, MARK SANCHEZ, ANDY DALTON, ALEX SMITH..............WILL ALL DO A NICE JOB OF GETTING YOU INTO THE PLAYOFFS. BUT IF YOU WANT TO WIN A SUPER BOWL YOU NEED TO GET A STUD. I NO LONGER CARE ABOUT BEING RESPECTABLE. I CARE ABOUT WINNING A SUPER BOWL.
Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
by motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:19 pm
e0y2e3 wrote:motherscratcher wrote:I'm of the opinion that we will be moving up the crap pile a little bit next year, no matter what we do.
by Gradysmanldy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:20 pm
by e0y2e3 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:28 pm
motherscratcher wrote:Not because we will be so much better, but it will be almost ipmossible not to. Look how fucking attrociously bad we were this year, and we're still only picking #4. Fill 3 holes with 3 high picks, give Colt another year in the system, give Paddy another year...this will definitely imporve. Not a lot. And there will definitely be a plateau that keeps us squarely in the realm of suck in that scenario.But I don't see how you think we are more likely to be picking top 4 next year as opposed to #8-10, no matter what happens in the draft and this offseason.Christ, you act like I said we'd be a playoff contender.Nobody likes you.
by mattvan1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:35 pm
FUDU wrote:I see it as there is such a thing as trading up, and then there is trading up. No way in hell do I trade away 3 high picks to move up 1-2 spots to take a guy that isn't the sure fire thing in this draft (RG3), when those picks could improve the team enough that maybe next year you have so few holes that making such a move to fill your QB needs makes more sense.
by motherscratcher » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:36 pm
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