Cleveland Browns & The NFL

by **justmebd** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:37 pm

Looking around the board, I was surprised there was not already a thread on this.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... wont-play/

This quote intrigued me:

Manning is likely done playing for the Colts, as the team is expected to release him before his $28 million bonus comes due in early 2012. It’s tough to see them paying that kind of money to a soon-to-be 36-year-old who just missed an entire season, and the Colts would take an enormous salary cap hit if they traded Manning. So for Indianapolis, the next step at quarterback will be moving on to Andrew Luck.

So . . . if Colt is available, do you trample old ladies and small children to sign him?

Even given his age and the injury he is recovering from, if he passes his physical and is able to step on a football field again, he's light years ahead of anyone else out there and would give the Browns time to develop the next franchise QB.

It's an interesting scenario that could evolve over the offseason.

by **swerb** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Peyton Manning will get to pick where he goes if he's healthy. I see no chance he would choose to play here.

I think it's really that simple.

by **leadpipe** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:41 pm

If they will release him it will be as a courtesy to his service, so that he picks a destination of his choosing.

Done exactly so he's not forced to go to a dog of an organization such as this one.

I'd be willing to bet if they asked Peyton to name the three franchises he's LEAST want to go to, the Browns would be one.

No elephant. No room.

by **e0y2e3** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:43 pm

The Browns would be The Least.

What organization in the NFL is worse?

by **leadpipe** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:44 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:The Browns would be The Least.

What organization in the NFL is worse?

Only one close would be the Raiders. But, probably not real close.

by **justmebd** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:59 pm

I agree that he'll get his choice, but it is fun to think about hearing "Starting quarterback for the Cleveland Browns, PEYTON MANNING!!"

It certainly would make the Division games more interesting.

by **pup** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:42 pm

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:44 pm

Manning wouldn't last 2 series behind the Browns OL

by **mattvan1** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:52 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Tony Pashos wouldn't last 2 series in front of Peyton Manning. Manning would yell and scream at him so relentlessly that Pashos would think he is back in Pop Warner football.

Fixed it at no charge.

BTW, the worst franchise in the NFL is the Bengals, with a comfortable lead over the Browns. Now that Al Davis is gone, the Raiders seem almost functional.

by **peeker643** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:58 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Manning wouldn't last 2 series behind the Browns OL

He'd be Stephen Hawking by the 2nd quarter.

by **leadpipe** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:59 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Tony Pashos wouldn't last 2 series in front of Peyton Manning. Manning would yell and scream at him so relentlessly that Pashos would think he is back in Pop Warner football.

Fixed it at no charge.

BTW, the worst franchise in the NFL is the Bengals, with a comfortable lead over the Browns. Now that Al Davis is gone, the Raiders seem almost functional.

Don't count the Raiders out. Davis' body was cold when they made the worst trade of the decade.

And the NEW Browns are even worse than the Bengals. As sad is that is to say that they are worse than a team that allowed Marvin Lewis to head coach for so long.

I suppose Browns Bengals is the whole Rosie O'donnell/Roseanne Barr argument all over again.

by **mattvan1** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:10 am

leadpipe wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Tony Pashos wouldn't last 2 series in front of Peyton Manning. Manning would yell and scream at him so relentlessly that Pashos would think he is back in Pop Warner football.

Fixed it at no charge.

BTW, the worst franchise in the NFL is the Bengals, with a comfortable lead over the Browns. Now that Al Davis is gone, the Raiders seem almost functional.

Don't count the Raiders out. Davis' body was cold when they made the worst trade of the decade.

And the NEW Browns are even worse than the Bengals. As sad is that is to say that they are worse than a team that allowed Marvin Lewis to head coach for so long.

I suppose Browns Bengals is the whole Rosie O'donnell/Roseanne Barr argument all over again.

Valid points. Time for another double Crown Black and hoping to blackout before New Candlestick does.

by **Spin** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:07 am

leadpipe wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:The Browns would be The Least.

What organization in the NFL is worse?

Only one close would be the Raiders. But, probably not real close.

The Raiders passed us the day Al Davis died.

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:17 am

peeker643 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Manning wouldn't last 2 series behind the Browns OL

He'd be Stephen Hawking by the 2nd quarter.

I have an awesome idea if I only knew how to photoshop...

His chair would need a reverse gear, tho

by **swerb** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:21 am

You couldn't get Peyton Manning to Cleveland with eight terrorists and a white van.

by **Brownsnation09** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:22 am

By far Cleveland is the worse franchise in the NFL. It all starts at the top with an owner who doesn't care about the product, and well we see what we get. Let's all remember, these are not OUR Browns, this is a failed expansion franchise disguised as the Browns we once loved and looked forward to actually watch. Lerner has been terrible for this city, the people, and the franchise. What is the biggest free agent the Lerner's have brought in? Jeff Garcia, Scott Fugita, Ben Watson, give me a break. The drafts have been terrible going all the way back to the Brown, Warren, Green, years. We can all get upset with the Walrus but why, he has no money to work with, the owner will not allow it. Absolutely, this is by far the worst franchise in professional football. Ha, did I say professional? Boycott this team until a competent owner takes control of the Browns, because it is the same thing every year, 4-5 wins, eliminated from contention by October, and draft talk by November. It hurts even more to see all the other teams in our division heading to the playoffs. Absolutely disgusting, except seeing the Steelers getting whooped by the 49ers was nice to see. Did Lerner even consider Harbaugh, yeah we know the answer to that. Shurmer was the guy, what a joke.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:32 am

Lord Tebow, you gentlemen sound like bitter old women.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:36 am

mattvan1 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Tony Pashos wouldn't last 2 series in front of Peyton Manning. Manning would yell and scream at him so relentlessly that Pashos would think he is back in Pop Warner football.

Fixed it at no charge.

BTW, the worst franchise in the NFL is the Bengals, with a comfortable lead over the Browns. Now that Al Davis is gone, the Raiders seem almost functional.

Two 1st rounders for Carson Palmer. Or was that just the final tribute to Al's legacy?

Every fan feels their team (when losing) is the worst franchise in the NFL. Perspective doesn't afflict the common fan.

by **Brownsnation09** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:49 am

Please explain how the disaster of the last decade and a half doesn't cement this franchise as the worst in the NFL? Last playoff win was 1994 I believe, that says it all.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:02 pm

Brownsnation09 wrote:Please explain how the disaster of the last decade and a half doesn't cement this franchise as the worst in the NFL? Last playoff win was 1994 I believe, that says it all.

Why would I bother? You've already got your violin out, nothing's gonna stop you from playing it.

Betcha the fans in Washington have their violins tuned up too. St. Louis (yeah, I know they won a SB in '99, but memories are short). When was the last time Buffalo was good? How about Minny - those fans are about to lose their damn team. Jacksonville too.

All 34 Cincy fans may feel OK now, but they probably sounded like a freakin' symphony last year. Same with Detroit. Same with Houston.

My brother-in-law is a Dolphins fan, and he's gone on and on all year about Miami being the most disfunctional organization with the worst owner in all of sports.

But we somehow believe that we're unique in our suffering because it's our suffering. Our suffering is the only thing we as fans can display with pride, so we'll be damned if someone else is gonna beat us out for Worst Franchise Ever.

Play us a sad sad song.

by **e0y2e3** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:03 pm

One playoff appearance, led there by a coach who had a nervous breakdown.

A lack of young talent everywhere and anywhere.

75 regime changes in ten years.

The numbers don't back you up Hiko.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:11 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:One playoff appearance, led there by a coach who had a nervous breakdown.

A lack of young talent everywhere and anywhere.

75 regime changes in ten years.

The numbers don't back you up Hiko.

Every symphony needs a conductor.

Yes, yes, we're clearly the Worst Ever! We must roll on the ground in our own feces and bay to the heavens "Why Tebow Why???!!!"

We alone are subjected to this suffering! Our team is the only one with poor results! It will never get better! Ever!

We should all just go behind the shed and shoot ourselves.

Yawn. Make sure to bring this back up next time you're playing pinochle with the girls at Shady Brook Retirement Home. :cheers:

by **e0y2e3** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:13 pm

You're a dick.

Anyhow, looking at them strictly through the lens of Neo-Browns I don't see how this is arguable.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:21 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:You're a dick.

Anyhow, looking at them strictly through the lens of Neo-Browns I don't see how this is arguable.

Thank you.

Not necessarily trying to argue it, just don't give a fuck. I can't make the last decade suck any less, nor is it worth my time to dwell on it. If I back the Worst Franchise Ever ticket, do I get a medal or a badge or something? No? Then who cares which team is deemed the Worst Franchise Ever in this completely subjective and fruitless debate?

It would be downright ignorant for me to claim that the Browns will NEVER be good in the future, so I'll keep looking towards that.

by **e0y2e3** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:25 pm

by **justmebd** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:14 pm

swerb wrote:You couldn't get Peyton Manning to Cleveland with eight terrorists and a white van.

But what if Peyton is in a modified Delorean?

by **Sea Foam Green** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:37 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
All 34 Cincy fans may feel OK now, but they probably sounded like a freakin' symphony last year.

Mostly it's just bitching about Mike Brown and consoling themselves with the knowledge that at least they aren't as bad as Cleveland.

Unfortunately, they're right. Mediocre>Fucking Terrible.

They've been the better Franchise since they drafted Carson Palmer.

Could be a lesson in there.

by **Gradysmanldy** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:42 pm

Manning is going to the Dolphins, Skins, or Jets. Would almost put money on it.

....and if he goes to the Skins or Jets, he wins at least 9-10 games next year; competent defenses, good run games, and receivers basically as good as what he's had in Indy.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:46 pm

Gee, and I could've sworn that Cleveland fans have been consoling themselves for years that at least their team isn't as bad as Cincy's.

Because the Bengals are doing OK this year, we are supposed to forget that they've only had 2 winning seasons in the last 20? That is, yes, less than the Browns during the same time span, even with 3 years removed and an expansion team.

SUB. JECK. TIVE.

by **JCoz** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:47 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Gee, and I could've sworn that Cleveland fans have been consoling themselves for years that at least their team isn't as bad as Cincy's.

Because the Bengals are doing OK this year, we are supposed to forget that they've only had 2 winning seasons in the last 20? That is, yes, less than the Browns during the same time span, even with 3 years removed and an expansion team.

SUB. JECK. TIVE.

Lol, I literally had a one line response typed out about an hour ago about Cincy getting a pass becuase of this year but thought fuck it...

by **FUDU** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:56 pm

68 wins since we fought to have them back.

[/thread]

by **Sea Foam Green** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:57 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Gee, and I could've sworn that Cleveland fans have been consoling themselves for years that at least their team isn't as bad as Cincy's.

Because the Bengals are doing OK this year, we are supposed to forget that they've only had 2 winning seasons in the last 20? That is, yes, less than the Browns during the same time span, even with 3 years removed and an expansion team.

SUB. JECK. TIVE.

Trust me man, I live down here, I know all about it. It used to be who's had more winning seasons in the past 10 years. After this year, I don't know what I'll say...

Still, I think if you try your best to be objective and look at the past 10 years, you'll see one franchise that's been consistently average with a couple up and a couple down years, and one franchise that's been consistently bad, with a couple good years.

And, yes, it kills me to be sticking up for the Bengals, but at this point....Fact is Facts.

by **Hikohadon** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:13 pm

Sea Foam Green wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Gee, and I could've sworn that Cleveland fans have been consoling themselves for years that at least their team isn't as bad as Cincy's.

Because the Bengals are doing OK this year, we are supposed to forget that they've only had 2 winning seasons in the last 20? That is, yes, less than the Browns during the same time span, even with 3 years removed and an expansion team.

SUB. JECK. TIVE.

Trust me man, I live down here, I know all about it. It used to be who's had more winning seasons in the past 10 years. After this year, I don't know what I'll say...

Still, I think if you try your best to be objective and look at the past 10 years, you'll see one franchise that's been consistently average with a couple up and a couple down years, and one franchise that's been consistently bad, with a couple good years.

And, yes, it kills me to be sticking up for the Bengals, but at this point....Fact is Facts.

This isn't a worthy debate, trying to determine which franchise is worse. They both suck, along with a handful of other franchises. Trying to order the level of suck just isn't worth the effort. It's meaningless.

The only thing that matters is what these franchises do on a go-forward. In that respect, Cincy does look better right this minute. We'll have to see if that's still the case post-draft.

by **peeker643** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:34 pm

Just saw this, for whatever it's worth:

http://tinypic.com/r/24zhthk/5

The link above has a few more numbers (INTS and sacks) that get cut off with the pic.

by **Sea Foam Green** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:34 pm

For anybody else out there that struggles to put 2 and 2 together. The SD numbers are for Drew Brees.

I had to look it up.

by **Hikohadon** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:03 pm

Clearly, these numbers mean that Colt McCoy will somehow become Drew Brees. Probably even better.

He's also won as many games in his first year of starting as Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman did in their first years COMBINED.

Greatness, get ready to welcome Colt McCoy.

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:36 pm

Blast from the past...

http://www.bangcartoon.com/2007/norvaway.htm

by **peeker643** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:10 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Clearly, these numbers mean that Colt McCoy will somehow become Drew Brees. Probably even better.

He's also won as many games in his first year of starting as Peyton Manning and Troy Aikman did in their first years COMBINED.

Greatness, get ready to welcome Colt McCoy.

Ha!

I have zero recollection about the perception of Brees when he was in San Diego. Does anyone have links or articles? Also wondering what the major knocks on Brees were coming out of school. I'm not looking for opinion so much as reporting.

No offense, but I just don't care about what some claims manager at Progressive or fork lift operator in Barberton think on this. Looking for scouting reports and that kind of shit.

Anyone help a bored board member out? I can't find shit here at work.

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:23 pm

Drew Brees
By: Dave-Te' Thomas

#15-DREW BREES Purdue University Boilermakers 5:11.7-221

ANALYSIS
Positives... Touch passer with the ability to read and diagnose defensive coverages...Confident leader who knows how to take command in the huddle...Very tough and mobile moving around in the pocket...Has a quick setup and is very effective throwing on the move...Throws across his body with great consistency...Hits receivers in stride and improvises his throws in order to make a completion...Puts good zip behind the short and mid-range passes...Shows good judgement and keen field vision...Has a take-charge attitude and is very cool under pressure...Hits receivers in motion with impressive velocity...Has superb pocket presence and uses all of his offensive weapons in order to move the chains...Has solid body mechanics and quickness moving away from center... Elusive scrambler with the body control to avoid the rush.

Negatives... Plays in the spread offense, taking the bulk of his snaps from the shotgun... Tends to side-arm his passes going deep...Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws... Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack...Does not possess the ideal height you look for in a pro passer, though his ability to scan the field helps him compensate in this area...Will improvise and run when the passing lanes are clogged, but tends to run through defenders rather than trying to avoid them to prevent unnecessary punishment.

CAREER NOTES
The unquestioned leader of the Boilermakers' offense and one of the school's most decorated athletes...The three-year starter shattered virtually every school passing record and also made his marks on the Big Ten Conference and NCAA Division 1-A record charts...Ranks fourth in NCAA annals with 1525 pass attempts, 942 completions and 11,815 yards in total offense (NCAA does not recognize bowl stats)...Including post-season action, he holds the Boilermaker and conference career-records with 1026 pass completions of 1678 passes for 11,792 yards, 90 touchdown tosses and 12,692 yards in total offense...His pass completion percentage of .611 set another Purdue all-time record... Only player in Big Ten Conference history to throw for over 500 yards in a game twice in a career...Threw for over 400 yards seven times, over 300 yards sixteen times and over 200 yards twenty-seven times during his career...Tied Wisconsin tailback Ron Dayne's (1996-99) Big Ten Conference record by earning Player of the Week honors eight times during his career.

REMIND ME OF... San Francisco's Jeff Garcia.

GAZING INTO THE CRYSTAL BALL... Despite his "shortcoming" in the size department, Brees has put up impressive enough numbers to generate first round consideration. Pittsburtgh, Kansas City (if they don't pull off the Trent Green trade) or Miami could opt for Brees in the first round, but I am not convinced that he will come anywhere close to matching his lofty collegiate figures at the pro level. If those three teams pass on him, Brees will still be on board when the second round opens.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2001/pro ... brees.html

LOL

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:26 pm

In his rookie season, Brees played only one game under head coach Mike Riley but did arguably well, garnering a passer rating of 94.8. In his second year, Brees wasn't able to silence critics who complained about his poor arm strength. Brees posted reasonable numbers, passing for 3284 yards and 17 touchdowns under new head coach Marty Schottenheimer. The Chargers looked to turn Brees' second season into a successful one as they started 4-0 against a difficult schedule. However, a series of losses forced the Chargers into a .500 at 8-8, and forced Brees to settle for a 76.9 rating on the season. Brees was named the starter of 2003, but failed to prove himself worthy of the job as he posted his worst season ever, with a career low 2108 yards and 67.5 rating. The Chargers went 4-12 under the poor leadership of both Brees and Flutie. San Diego earned the first overall pick with said record, and through a deal with the New York Giants got Philips Rivers for Eli Manning. However, due to long contract negoatations between Rivers and the Chargers Brees started the following season and had a break out year.

ComebackEdit

http://armchairgm.wikia.com/Drew_Brees

by **mattvan1** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:49 pm

peeker643 wrote: Also wondering what the major knocks on Brees were coming out of school.

He played at Purdue. (trolling for SSS)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/2001/draft/news/2001/04/21/chargers_draft_ap/

by **peeker643** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:53 pm

Thanks fellas.

Biggest difference in criticisms as far as I can see, and it could well be fatal, is McCoy's college accuracy appears to be a product of the receivers in the Big12 running alone like antelope in the secondary. His placement has been poor on many occasions.

And watching Brees throw today, he may not be Elway or Rodgers but his velocity just looks better than McCoy's on the intermediate and tight throws. I honestly don't and can't know if that's arm or head/confidence/system failure.

I have seen McCoy jam a couple balls in tight windows, I have seen him throw the ball 50 yards downfield accurately. But why is there so much inconsistency in terms of his velocity/accuracy?

Obviously the answer may be, "He's just not that good" but his situation gives me more pause than I ever had with DA or Quinn/Frye/Et al.

by **e0y2e3** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:55 pm

So help me gawd you bald headed asshat, if this causes a month of morons running around the boards poinint to Colt and screaming BREEEEEEEEEEEEEEZEEEEEEEE I'm going to pay CDT to kick your ass.

by **peeker643** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:01 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:So help me gawd you bald headed asshat, if this causes a month of morons running around the boards poinint to Colt and screaming BREEEEEEEEEEEEEEZEEEEEEEE I'm going to pay CDT to kick your ass.

I'm all about the discussions. And it's the holidays and SoulDawg has been scarce. This is his Siren's Call.

And a large part of my holiday joy is making sure you're bent out of shape. It might be the biggest part actually...

by **Hikohadon** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:18 pm

I wonder what Rex Grossman's scouting report said coming out of college.

For every single QB that has ever entered the NFL, there is an example of another QB with a similar style and similar physical attributes that succeeded. And there will also be 10 examples of similar QB's that failed.

Comparing Colt McCoy to Drew Brees is like comparing Seneca Wallace to Kurt Warner - maybe all Seneca needs is a shot... but it's not likely.

by **Hikohadon** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:25 pm

peeker643 wrote:Thanks fellas.

Biggest difference in criticisms as far as I can see, and it could well be fatal, is McCoy's college accuracy appears to be a product of the receivers in the Big12 running alone like antelope in the secondary. His placement has been poor on many occasions.

And watching Brees throw today, he may not be Elway or Rodgers but his velocity just looks better than McCoy's on the intermediate and tight throws. I honestly don't and can't know if that's arm or head/confidence/system failure.

I have seen McCoy jam a couple balls in tight windows, I have seen him throw the ball 50 yards downfield accurately. But why is there so much inconsistency in terms of his velocity/accuracy?

Obviously the answer may be, "He's just not that good" but his situation gives me more pause than I ever had with DA or Quinn/Frye/Et al.

It is my recollection that Brees always had a better arm, but I'd have to watch some of those first 2 years' performances to really compare him to Colt. Stats mean nothing.

by **peeker643** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:42 pm

I agree Hiko. The bottom line for me is I know people will always make comps to Brees and to other 'similar' type athletes.

The biggest issue for me is the accuracy issue. McCoy is simply far less accurate than advertised. If the Browns feel that he's inaccurate regardless of the other issues (OL) then IMO he's done here and won't take the field again as a Brown.

And fwiw I feel they already made that evaluation and that's the way it's going to play out.

As I said peviously, I tend to think some of those issues are directly related to his second system/OC/QB coach/etc in 2 seasons but I've seen him miss multiple open receivers on the rare occasions he had time.

It is interesting to me though, that Brees's accuracy was questioned early in his NFL career when it wasn't questioned in college. I don't know what it means in terms of McCoy, most likely nothing, but it interests me.

by **e0y2e3** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:43 pm

Yall just wanna shine, Yall just wanna glisten....

by **peeker643** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:48 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Yall just wanna shine, Yall just wanna glisten....

This is my gift to you. Try and enjoy it.

by **Hikohadon** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:57 pm

The accuracy question is unanswerable, really. Do QB's improve their accuracy after a couple years in the NFL? Definitely. You can look at pretty much every good QB and say their accuracy has improved markedly since they were rookies.

But just b/c a certain QB could improve his accuracy doesn't mean he will.

When I look at a guy like McCoy, I gauge where he is, what his ceiling is, how far he has to go to be in that elite class, and what percentage of his ceiling will he have to reach in order to be in said class.

Then I multiply by the square root of pi and that gives me an indisputable measure of whether or not a QB will succeed.

Colt's measure in the Hiko System is low b/c he has a long way to go and would have to reach almost 100% of his potential to get there, which is very rare and difficult. Not to say it's impossible, just not likely (imho).

Cleveland Browns & The NFL

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