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M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:32 pm

skatingtripods wrote: how anybody can argue that he's too expensive, based on market value, is laughable.


Laughable is your manipulation of stats.


Take Jason Bay in your example (which he is not a good comparison by the way but the one with Cuddyer is)

Jason Bay's career numbers only fall down to where Willingham's are, due to injuries he suffered the last 2 seasons. It has nothing to do with his talent level. Jason Bay when healthy and in his prime was/is 3x the player Willingham is. Before these last 2 seasons his all around numbers were light years better than Willingham. The Mets paid him the contract he got because he had a proven track record of being an All Star and having Above Average offensive output and pretty good defense. They were paying him as a marque free agent as he should have been paid like one.



Willingham is only possibly getting that much due to supply and demand, that doesn't make it right nor does it mean he should get it. Willingham does not have a track record that indicates he should get that much money, but its free agency so teams will overpay which is part of the game. That being said I do see your point when compared to Cuddyer, it is ridiculous that Cuddyer is more sought after than Willingham when Willingham has had better career numbers. However it is scouts and GM's that are making that assumption so maybe they know or see something about Cuddyer that doesn't show up in the stats column that makes him more valuable than Willingham.

Also I don't doubt that he would help this team, just not on a 3 year deal for a team that constantly bitches about having to have financial flexibility or always points out their bad contracts as excuses when not being able to make moves or to have the ability to resign people. I would prob sign Willingham as I stated before on a one year deal. I desperately want this team to improve but they need to do it without screwing themselves even more for the future.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby paulcousineau » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:35 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Josh Willingham: .262/.361/.475/.836

Player A: .264/.360/.464/.824

Player B: .272/.343/.451/.794

Player C: .271/.335/.439/.794

Player D: .274/.369/.494/.863


Player A is Jayson Werth. (paid 13M this year, but 21M '15-'17)
Player B is, as Al guessed, Michael Cuddyer. (TBD salary)
Player C is Jason Kubel. (TBD salary)
Player D is Jason Bay. (paid 16M this year)

Considering that Cuddyer and Kubel will get around or exactly what Willingham gets, how anybody can argue that he's too expensive, based on market value, is laughable. His career OPS is 40 points higher than Kubel/Cuddyer and his OBP is significantly higher.

Unfortunate that we're out on him. Playing 1B would have cut down on the wear and tear he experiences in the OF nightly and he could have been a real RH asset.

This example actually illustrates both sides of the argument pretty well.
OF COURSE Josh Willingham would have upgraded the Indians' offense as he's a better hitter than the internal options and he's a good offensive player - has been for some time. He's not a great offensive player, he's not just an average offensive player...he's good.
On the FA market, signing a "good" player is going to cost you.
A lot. In years and dollars.

That's not breaking any new ground, but the point of the Dellucci comp that I listed above was to point out that you have to pay these guys for a level you think they'll perform at, not for what they've already done. Obviously, there are no crystal balls available, so the track record of players is what you go on, as well as age, and trends.

Adam brings up Bay and Werth as two guys who were paid what the market would bear and based on their past production, with the idea that their production would continue. Since he's joined the Mets, Bay has posted an OPS of .749 (105 OPS+) in 2010 and an OPS of .703 (96 OPS+) with the Mets on the hook for 2 more seasons of a declining OF. In the 1st year of his deal, Werth posted a .718 OPS (97 OPS+) and his big money (under contract through 2017) hasn't even kicked in.

The Mets and the Nats paid the "going rate" for these guys (though Washington obviously overpaid) and they lost/are losing their gamble. That's all FA signings are...gambles. Somebody was going to give Willingham 3 years - whether he deserved it or not or whether that team thought he would perform at a consistent level for all 3 years - and it turned out to be the Twins. If Werth and Bay are comps for Willingham, I'm glad he's not coming to Cleveland, because they've regressed pretty severely. Then again, maybe Willingham just keeps hitting...maybe not enough to justify his contract, but enough to not make him the albatross that a number of FA signings become.

We'll have a front-row seat in the AL Central to see how the Twins' gamble paid off...
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:40 pm

bookelly wrote:Dude, 1B ain't hard. That's where they stash the fat drunk guy who can hit HR's in softball. Shit, there's often a keg of beer at 1B. If you can play LF, you can play 1B.


Then why cant/didn't Laporta ::doh:: , Broussard ::doh:: , or Garko :pb: learn to play it?

I know its not a rocket science position to play but it still takes skill/talent to play that position. I'm not comfortable gambling that he could play it and have him be no better than Garko when 4/5 of our starting rotation rely somewhat heavily on groundballs.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:53 pm

bookelly wrote:Willingham signs with the Twins. Could we be the mystery team (along with Rockies) looking at Cuddyer? He's certainly a defensive match, 1B against righties, and LF vs. lefties. Twins offered 3/24, he's asking 3/30. 3/27 probably gets it done and leaves 1or 2 mil left for Casey or DeRosa.



They don't have that kind of money.

Plain and simple.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:13 pm

They said they have $70 Mil. After all the arby contracts payroll stands at $60 Mil. So that's 10 left. 9 to Cuddyer and 1-2 to Blake. And we keep the Pen intact.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:35 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Laughable is your manipulation of stats.


Laughable would be if I included Grady Sizemore, who, by the way, has a lower career OPS than Willingham.


Jason Bay when healthy and in his prime was/is 3x the player Willingham is. Before these last 2 seasons his all around numbers were light years better than Willingham. The Mets paid him the contract he got because he had a proven track record of being an All Star and having Above Average offensive output and pretty good defense. They were paying him as a marque free agent as he should have been paid like one.


Disagree on 3x the player. But, if he is, as you say, 3x better than Willingham, what's wrong with paying Willingham half of what Bay is making? Are you saying that a .360 career OBP and 22-28 HR isn't worth 8M in today's MLB?

Fangraphs has his monetary value for the last four years listed as: 13.3M, 11.5M, 12.4M, and 9.4M.

That's the going rate for a player of his caliber now. Doesn't matter if you like it or not. It's what it costs to acquire a major league hitter.

But fine, we'll forget about Bay. Explain Jayson Werth to me then. Similar numbers. Makes a huge chunk of change. Who would you rather have? Werth at 18M per (average) or Willingham at 8-10M per?

Or would you rather watch LaPorta fumble around for less than 1M?

For me, with Hafner's 13M club option probably 30/70 to be declined, Sizemore and Lowe off the books, could unload Fausto if he's not worth the 9M '13 option, I don't mind having 8-10M tied up in Willingham.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:38 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Laughable is your manipulation of stats.


Laughable would be if I included Grady Sizemore, who, by the way, has a lower career OPS than Willingham.

/quote]


Yeah because OPS is the end all be all stat. I think you are way to preoccupied with that stat.


Grady Sizemore when Healthy is also 3x the all around player Willingham is.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:39 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Yeah because OPS is the end all be all stat. I think you are way to preoccupied with that stat.


I am? Sure. Me and tons of league front offices.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:40 pm

bookelly wrote:They said they have $70 Mil. After all the arby contracts payroll stands at $60 Mil. So that's 10 left. 9 to Cuddyer and 1-2 to Blake. And we keep the Pen intact.


I'm thinking they're okay with that number for this season but that they're not willing to go with that commitment going into future years.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:48 pm

Hafner's off the book next year. If anything, they have more money.

/just read yer Browns piece. Nice job.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:52 pm

peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:Willingham signs with the Twins. Could we be the mystery team (along with Rockies) looking at Cuddyer? He's certainly a defensive match, 1B against righties, and LF vs. lefties. Twins offered 3/24, he's asking 3/30. 3/27 probably gets it done and leaves 1or 2 mil left for Casey or DeRosa.



They don't have that kind of money.

Plain and simple.


Then sell the fucking team to someone who fucking does. I'm tired of hearing this from these tightwad asshole loser pieces of shit cunt clot we have as owners.

Fuck them and their shitty loser franchise that sucks last place dick and like it.

Die.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:55 pm

bookelly wrote:Hafner's off the book next year. If anything, they have more money.

/just read yer Browns piece. Nice job.


Thank you.

Just think they're less than thrilled for the risk of too many years and too many dollars. Hopefully they find something that works for them because they clearly need an offensive upgrade.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:09 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Yeah because OPS is the end all be all stat. I think you are way to preoccupied with that stat.


I am? Sure. Me and tons of league front offices.


That doesnt make it right. They might use it but its not the end all be all to them or at least to the smart ones.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:28 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:That doesnt make it right. They might use it but its not the end all be all to them or at least to the smart ones.


Good. Well, then you'll be happy when we sign Jose Lopez.

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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:39 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:That doesnt make it right. They might use it but its not the end all be all to them or at least to the smart ones.


Good. Well, then you'll be happy when we sign Jose Lopez.

http://t.co/R0TXECvA



:lmfao:

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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:53 pm

But he was an all-star at age 22....... and hit 25 home runs three years ago...... Jesus Christ, Morosi would try to talk up Charlie Sheen for a babysitters position..
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:54 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:That doesnt make it right. They might use it but its not the end all be all to them or at least to the smart ones.


Good. Well, then you'll be happy when we sign Jose Lopez.

http://t.co/R0TXECvA



:lmfao:

Jose Lopez.....


If they waste a spot on the 40 man for this guy... ::doh::
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:50 am

skatingtripods wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:That doesnt make it right. They might use it but its not the end all be all to them or at least to the smart ones.


Good. Well, then you'll be happy when we sign Jose Lopez.

http://t.co/R0TXECvA



no, I wont.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:57 am

peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:Willingham signs with the Twins. Could we be the mystery team (along with Rockies) looking at Cuddyer? He's certainly a defensive match, 1B against righties, and LF vs. lefties. Twins offered 3/24, he's asking 3/30. 3/27 probably gets it done and leaves 1or 2 mil left for Casey or DeRosa.



They don't have that kind of money.

Plain and simple.


Weren't the Tribe only talking a little less than that for Willingham though? In the words of the jerk at the beginning of Planes Trains and Automobiles, "Anyone who pays $50 for a cab, certainly pays $75."

I think Cuddyer would be well worth a few more million per year, however they had to tweak the roster to get it done. He would be a legitimate difference maker in this lineup. Again, after the Jimenez trade and accelerating the timeframe, this is the type of real move they need to make. I mean is 3 for 30 THAT bad? MLB free agency is a ripoff anyway, I'd rather they spent more money on a safer bet. Count me in for a ticket upgrade if that's what it takes.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:15 am

Kingpin74 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:Willingham signs with the Twins. Could we be the mystery team (along with Rockies) looking at Cuddyer? He's certainly a defensive match, 1B against righties, and LF vs. lefties. Twins offered 3/24, he's asking 3/30. 3/27 probably gets it done and leaves 1or 2 mil left for Casey or DeRosa.



They don't have that kind of money.

Plain and simple.


Weren't the Tribe only talking a little less than that for Willingham though? In the words of the jerk at the beginning of Planes Trains and Automobiles, "Anyone who pays $50 for a cab, certainly pays $75."

I think Cuddyer would be well worth a few more million per year, however they had to tweak the roster to get it done. He would be a legitimate difference maker in this lineup. Again, after the Jimenez trade and accelerating the timeframe, this is the type of real move they need to make. I mean is 3 for 30 THAT bad? MLB free agency is a ripoff anyway, I'd rather they spent more money on a safer bet. Count me in for a ticket upgrade if that's what it takes.


It's not the money. It's the money x the number of years. The years are the key factor.

If Paulie C is reading/on the boards today, he can likely advise further.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:35 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Then sell the fucking team to someone who fucking does.


I'll bite. Who?
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:45 am

peeker643 wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:Willingham signs with the Twins. Could we be the mystery team (along with Rockies) looking at Cuddyer? He's certainly a defensive match, 1B against righties, and LF vs. lefties. Twins offered 3/24, he's asking 3/30. 3/27 probably gets it done and leaves 1or 2 mil left for Casey or DeRosa.



They don't have that kind of money.

Plain and simple.


Weren't the Tribe only talking a little less than that for Willingham though? In the words of the jerk at the beginning of Planes Trains and Automobiles, "Anyone who pays $50 for a cab, certainly pays $75."

I think Cuddyer would be well worth a few more million per year, however they had to tweak the roster to get it done. He would be a legitimate difference maker in this lineup. Again, after the Jimenez trade and accelerating the timeframe, this is the type of real move they need to make. I mean is 3 for 30 THAT bad? MLB free agency is a ripoff anyway, I'd rather they spent more money on a safer bet. Count me in for a ticket upgrade if that's what it takes.


It's not the money. It's the money x the number of years. The years are the key factor.

If Paulie C is reading/on the boards today, he can likely advise further.


I was under the impression that Cuddyer was looking for 3 years. I'd pay that. If he wants more, then I agree with you.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:48 am

Kingpin74 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
bookelly wrote:Willingham signs with the Twins. Could we be the mystery team (along with Rockies) looking at Cuddyer? He's certainly a defensive match, 1B against righties, and LF vs. lefties. Twins offered 3/24, he's asking 3/30. 3/27 probably gets it done and leaves 1or 2 mil left for Casey or DeRosa.



They don't have that kind of money.

Plain and simple.


Weren't the Tribe only talking a little less than that for Willingham though? In the words of the jerk at the beginning of Planes Trains and Automobiles, "Anyone who pays $50 for a cab, certainly pays $75."

I think Cuddyer would be well worth a few more million per year, however they had to tweak the roster to get it done. He would be a legitimate difference maker in this lineup. Again, after the Jimenez trade and accelerating the timeframe, this is the type of real move they need to make. I mean is 3 for 30 THAT bad? MLB free agency is a ripoff anyway, I'd rather they spent more money on a safer bet. Count me in for a ticket upgrade if that's what it takes.


It's not the money. It's the money x the number of years. The years are the key factor.

If Paulie C is reading/on the boards today, he can likely advise further.


I was under the impression that Cuddyer was looking for 3 years. I'd pay that. If he wants more, then I agree with you.


Seems reasonable. But PC will advise that the Indians aren't up for three years at that price. That's the issue.

I actually get the impression they'd go a bit higher per year if two years was the duration.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:23 pm

peeker643 wrote:It's not the money. It's the money x the number of years. The years are the key factor.


If you're speaking about free agency in general, then yes, I agree.

If you're speaking solely about Willingham, I disagree. I think it's all about the money there and it's because they don't have the money this year.

To hear the team president tell a fan on Twitter that it's because of Willingham's "defensive fit" screams of bullshit. As I said upthread, this is the team that trotted Shelley Duncan into LF/RF 79 times in the last two seasons. This is the organization that thinks Ezequiel Carrera is actually a good defensive player.

We're all sitting around a table and Shapiro says he has five 7's. I call bullshit.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby TonyIPI » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:52 pm

People can agree or disagree, but straight from the team's mouth it is the years and not the $$ that deters them from signing guys in FA. They could sign any guy to a 1 year deal for any amount of money. They would be fine with that. But it is and always will be the contract length they are uncomfortable with. After the disasters with recent long term deals to Westbrook and Hafner and some extensions to others like Carmona, Sizemore, etc, they are very reluctant to sign anyone for over two years right now. It is also why we have not seen anyone signed to long term deals through their arby years. They just think that at this point in time it is better for them to go year to year with guys as that is where you will get the best value for the players and risk overpaying them. Getting an extra year of control in exchange for high dollar backend deals is no longer inviting.

They may still sign a guy or two to extensions during the arb years, but it is no longer the way of business. The money and deals are just ridiculous right now and they do not have the revenues to support it. Free agency is an inefficient market that they have never really been huge players in, and back in the 90s when they did sign some solid/good players no one was ever signed to more than 3 years. The Hershisers, Murrays, Martinezs, McDowells, etc all got 2 or 3 year deals for now mor than $4.5 million per. Just a different game today.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby paulcousineau » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:05 pm

What I had heard was that they would go to 2 years and when the Twins guaranteed the 3rd year, they dropped out. They think he's good and an obvious offensive upgrade, but not to the point that they were comfortable committing 3 years to him, particularly at numbers that aren't small.

While I can't speak to his defensive skill in that I've never actually sat there and watched him play the OF, most things I've read say that he's a poor defensive OF and his lack of versatility played a role in the Indians' hestitance. There's a big difference between playing Duncan in LF/RF because 3 OF ahead of him were hurt and having a poor defensive OF as your 1st option in LF. Whether he can play 1B is not something I can answer, though with all of these GB pitchers and 2 young IF, you would think that defense is a priority for whoever is playing 1B.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby pup » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:35 pm

TonyIPI wrote:People can agree or disagree, but straight from the team's mouth it is the years and not the $$ that deters them from signing guys in FA. They could sign any guy to a 1 year deal for any amount of money. They would be fine with that. But it is and always will be the contract length they are uncomfortable with. After the disasters with recent long term deals to Westbrook and Hafner and some extensions to others like Carmona, Sizemore, etc, they are very reluctant to sign anyone for over two years right now. It is also why we have not seen anyone signed to long term deals through their arby years. They just think that at this point in time it is better for them to go year to year with guys as that is where you will get the best value for the players and risk overpaying them. Getting an extra year of control in exchange for high dollar backend deals is no longer inviting.

They may still sign a guy or two to extensions during the arb years, but it is no longer the way of business. The money and deals are just ridiculous right now and they do not have the revenues to support it. Free agency is an inefficient market that they have never really been huge players in, and back in the 90s when they did sign some solid/good players no one was ever signed to more than 3 years. The Hershisers, Murrays, Martinezs, McDowells, etc all got 2 or 3 year deals for now mor than $4.5 million per. Just a different game today.


Excuses are like a$$holes.

They say what they need to say to keep bringing the few to the park that they do. They are comfortable with the attendance as it is creating a profit with the payroll they will put forth. Any taking a risk that increases the payroll risks their profit, because they suck at what they do and are not confident that adding to that payroll will produce wins.

Same old story. I only feel bad for those folks that bought into this whole concept of bringing in someone this winter to take advantage of this short window they painted themselves into.

They could get lucky and have healthy and productive years from some fringe guys and they could compete. But it will be no more than just that...luck.

Grady and Lowe...
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:07 pm

pup wrote:
Excuses are like a$$holes.

They say what they need to say to keep bringing the few to the park that they do. They are comfortable with the attendance as it is creating a profit with the payroll they will put forth. Any taking a risk that increases the payroll risks their profit, because they suck at what they do and are not confident that adding to that payroll will produce wins.

Same old story. I only feel bad for those folks that bought into this whole concept of bringing in someone this winter to take advantage of this short window they painted themselves into.

They could get lucky and have healthy and productive years from some fringe guys and they could compete. But it will be no more than just that...luck.

Grady and Lowe...


This goddamnit! THIS!
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:41 pm

Pup- I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

They are okay with profit and they aren't especially interested in risking it with longer deals for bigger dollars.

But, to be honest, I don't have a problem with that part. That's fine IMO if that's their business model and the fans make them profitable.

My issue is the second part of your post. I agree that given we know the constraints and the limitations I cannot understand how anyone reaches the conclusion that Grady Sizemore is a good fit or risk to take for $5m guaranteed.

Lowe doesn't bother me as much as I think he'll be fine for what he is at this point and they're paying him accordingly (with Atlanta's help). But moves like the Grady thing, even for a year, just don't make sense.

You're praying they pay Grady $9m. But I'm 90% sure they just threw away $5million in a market where they can't afford to.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:52 pm

This team could sell out every game next year and they would still put a shit product on the field.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby pup » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:01 pm

Agreed.

I am OK with that as a business model.

I am not OK with the execution of their business model.

If you were not going to make a serious effort at improving the lineup to take advantage of this window, they should have been making efforts to lengthen the window. Instead, they shrunk the window and failed to improve.

Shapiro 101. Cry about $ while wasting $. Then make sure you come up with a real good excuse like defensive deficiencies in god damn LF are the reason we are not improving the lineup. You would have to be awfully damn putrid (probably confined to a wheelchair putrid) to have a negative impact defensively in LF that your offense does not make up for.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:40 pm

pup wrote:Agreed.

I am OK with that as a business model.

I am not OK with the execution of their business model.

If you were not going to make a serious effort at improving the lineup to take advantage of this window, they should have been making efforts to lengthen the window. Instead, they shrunk the window and failed to improve.

Shapiro 101. Cry about $ while wasting $. Then make sure you come up with a real good excuse like defensive deficiencies in god damn LF are the reason we are not improving the lineup. You would have to be awfully damn putrid (probably confined to a wheelchair putrid) to have a negative impact defensively in LF that your offense does not make up for.


Bingo, they're trying to sit on two chairs with one ass. If you really have no money and/or want to commit to a shoestring philosophy, study the Tampa Bay Rays and their transactions up and down and do your best to copy them. They do quite well without ever having to make panic trades or rely on mediocre free agents when they don't have the money to do so. Or, alternatively, if you're impatient and really want to go for it for a few years, belly up to the bar and pay the going rate for the needed players. This half baked garbage doesn't help anyone.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:38 pm

Once bitten, twice shy is a pretty stupid way to run a baseball team. These guys aren't stupid. Somebody is gonna be playing 1B and LF next year. And he ain't on the roster yet.

Again, Cuddyer would be a perfect fit. If he wants 3 years instead of 2. Give it to him.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby TonyIPI » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:14 am

bookelly wrote:Once bitten, twice shy is a pretty stupid way to run a baseball team. These guys aren't stupid. Somebody is gonna be playing 1B and LF next year. And he ain't on the roster yet.

Again, Cuddyer would be a perfect fit. If he wants 3 years instead of 2. Give it to him.


Me personally, I don't care what they have to pay guys, just get the best players here.

But from an organizational perspective, it is just not gonna happen or ever happen. If anyone is holding out hope it happens, it is just not. MLB is the worst sport as far as competitive balance goes. Sure, any team can win in any given year, especially if they make it to the playoffs....but every year it is proven that there are 5-7 teams that can get the stars and the rest of the teams are just a feeding system for those 5-7 teams. I've been saying for awhile, but unless you are a diehard baseball fan it may be better if you just pay attention to another sport.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby pup » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:18 am

TonyIPI wrote:
bookelly wrote:Once bitten, twice shy is a pretty stupid way to run a baseball team. These guys aren't stupid. Somebody is gonna be playing 1B and LF next year. And he ain't on the roster yet.

Again, Cuddyer would be a perfect fit. If he wants 3 years instead of 2. Give it to him.


Me personally, I don't care what they have to pay guys, just get the best players here.

But from an organizational perspective, it is just not gonna happen or ever happen. If anyone is holding out hope it happens, it is just not. MLB is the worst sport as far as competitive balance goes. Sure, any team can win in any given year, especially if they make it to the playoffs....but every year it is proven that there are 5-7 teams that can get the stars and the rest of the teams are just a feeding system for those 5-7 teams. I've been saying for awhile, but unless you are a diehard baseball fan it may be better if you just pay attention to another sport.


5-7 out of 30. And once again, we have a new CBA signed that does nothing to change the way the system is set up. I blame those 23-25.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby bookelly » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:21 am

Occupy Bud Selig.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:27 am

pup wrote:5-7 out of 30. And once again, we have a new CBA signed that does nothing to change the way the system is set up. I blame those 23-25.


If they weren't satisfied with how things are, then they wouldn't have signed the agreement.

Baseball is a business, run by businessmen. Plain and simple. If people think Dolan is the only one that is like this, they're fooling themselves.

For most owners, wins are nice, but making money is better. Few of them are going to go out on limb and potentially lose money, especially since free agents are expensive and the return on that investment is so variable (see Crawford, Carl). Spending a lot more money also doesn't guarantee that you'll get to the playoffs and win, just ask the Cubs.

It is what it is, folks. Very few people are going to run a business at a loss, and even fewer are going to dip into their personal wealth to cover the difference.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby pup » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:30 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:
pup wrote:5-7 out of 30. And once again, we have a new CBA signed that does nothing to change the way the system is set up. I blame those 23-25.


If they weren't satisfied with how things are, then they wouldn't have signed the agreement.

Baseball is a business, run by businessmen. Plain and simple. If people think Dolan is the only one that is like this, they're fooling themselves.

For most owners, wins are nice, but making money is better. Few of them are going to go out on limb and potentially lose money, especially since free agents are expensive and the return on that investment is so variable (see Crawford, Carl). Spending a lot more money also doesn't guarantee that you'll get to the playoffs and win, just ask the Cubs.

It is what it is, folks. Very few people are going to run a business at a loss, and even fewer are going to dip into their personal wealth to cover the difference.


I agree with what you are saying.

Just don't tell me you did not sign a LF because he struggles with the glove.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:24 pm

Agreed.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby rigs » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:20 pm

The Indians philosophy that Tony mentioned regarding "not the money, the years" is the biggest scam of scams. If anyone is good enough to make 10m per year, they sure as hell are good enough to get someone to pay them that for several years. It makes no sense. Explain to me a situation where there will be a guy looking for a one year, $12 million dollar contract.

Next year, Hafner, Gimpmore, and Carmona come off the books. The following year, we are rebuilding after that. How in the world does Willingham's third year affect anything? There is no money at all committed in 2014???
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:09 am

rigs wrote:The Indians philosophy that Tony mentioned regarding "not the money, the years" is the biggest scam of scams. If anyone is good enough to make 10m per year, they sure as hell are good enough to get someone to pay them that for several years. It makes no sense. Explain to me a situation where there will be a guy looking for a one year, $12 million dollar contract.

Next year, Hafner, Gimpmore, and Carmona come off the books. The following year, we are rebuilding after that. How in the world does Willingham's third year affect anything? There is no money at all committed in 2014???


The only thing I can think of is Dolan is selling the team. It's easier to sell when there are no financial obligations like lengthy contracts getting in the way.

But otherwise your observation is spot on. And is the screamingly real truth that Dolan does not want to win, and is only looking for an exit strategy. Right at the start of a window of contention. If you thought he was bad before...just wait.

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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby TonyIPI » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:00 am

rigs wrote:The Indians philosophy that Tony mentioned regarding "not the money, the years" is the biggest scam of scams. If anyone is good enough to make 10m per year, they sure as hell are good enough to get someone to pay them that for several years. It makes no sense. Explain to me a situation where there will be a guy looking for a one year, $12 million dollar contract.

Next year, Hafner, Gimpmore, and Carmona come off the books. The following year, we are rebuilding after that. How in the world does Willingham's third year affect anything? There is no money at all committed in 2014???


It's always been the years. Back to Jacobs as owner. Back to Hart as GM. They have always missed out on players in trade/free agency because of their discomfort with long term expensive deals for any player. The only two contracts they have ever offered more than four years for are the Thome/Ramirez extensions, and those took a big leap in faith and also the two players involved were special.

Show me one multi-year deal which worked out very good for them (excluding pre-arb deals)? Disasters: Kerry Wood, Travis Hafner, Jake Westbrook, David Dellucci, Matt Lawton, Ricky Gutierrez. Only Ellis Burks and Chuck Finley are the only ones who were productive. Some of their best FA decisions are from one year deala (Juan GOnzalez and Kevin Millwood).

I think the problem is stemming from the Ubaldo trade where it created a false perception the Indians were going to spend on a big time free agent or something. I don't know how that trade made anyone put two and two together that way. That trade was all about getting a good player under control for an inexpensive cost to help win now. It wasn't about blowing cash on any player. What the trade showed is they are willing to trade anything to get a player they think adds great value to the team. They are not going to sign a player or trade for a player making big money as that doesn't necessarily bring value to the team. This is the whole "aligning value" think Antonetti keeps talking about.

I'll be the first to say how disappointing the offseason has been, but I can't say I am surprised. It's just the way things are for the Indians. Until I see a worthwhile first base upgrade get traded to another team, it is hard to get upset about anything. Everyone knew that any major upgrade would have to come via trade, and to date I haven't seen Gabby Sanchez, Yonder Alonso, etc traded to another team. The options are just not out there (available). If some of potential trade fits start flying off the shelves, I would be a lot more concerned. But the asking price right now is unreal, and is why I have heard they may now have to wait until during the season or at the trade deadline to get any kind of impact bat.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:25 pm

Like I said previously.

Since they suck at what they do, they do nothing and hope.

Yet countless people, each and every winter sit around and wait for them to do something.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:31 pm

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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:42 pm

pup wrote:Like I said previously.

Since they suck at what they do, they do nothing and hope.

Yet countless people, each and every winter sit around and wait for them to do something.


Yup, stupidly sit around and wait, as opposed to all of the pro-active options out there for fans.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:14 pm

I had a humorous post to go here. These piece of shit boards ate it.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:37 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I had a humorous post to go here. These piece of shit boards ate it.


In all seriousness, I have never lost a post on this site.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:39 pm

These insane log in problems started about a month or so ago. Like clockwork, something breaks here every 3-4 months. I have to log in two or three times now and get logged out after hitting submit on posts all the time.

It's just par for the course, like I said, every 3-4 months. The broken last post links were fixed a few months ago.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:03 pm

pup wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:I had a humorous post to go here. These piece of shit boards ate it.


In all seriousness, I have never lost a post on this site.


Me either. I haven't had login problems in a long time either.

As an "IT" guy I'd be happy to take a look. Right now I'm a little backed up, what with the holidays and all. I have a VCR, clicker, Walkman, and 2 ghetto blasters to get up and running. After that I'll get to your login issue.
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Re: M's, Tribe leaders for Willingham?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:04 pm

BTW, I still want to see this mythical " humorous" post.
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