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The heresy has started

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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:52 pm

Gotcha.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:55 pm

I saw the 'history and tradition' and I too was 7 when I saw my first Browns game on our 1st TV...it was black & white and it was 1950fucking7 and Jim Brown owned the NFL

It has since turned into laughing stock

Just check a couple new commercials

One has a Browns fan trying to score a TD and getting knocked backwards thru the air about 60' feet...

Another has fans of different teams cheering while watching the TV....until they show Browns fans....they're moaning and covering their faces with their hands

Thats what the Browns have become...that is what they will remain if constant change remains the norm

It reminds me of a joke I heard as a kid...

Guy is telling a story about leading around his donkey and stopping to talk to people and the donkey keeps getting restless and wants to leave

The guy says to the donkey, "patience, ass, patience"

The idea is to keep telling the story till whomever you're talking too says something to the effect of "What's the point?" and you immediately reply "patience, ass, patince"
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:59 pm

The message that is drilled into your head from the Browns marketing team is this supposed tradition that exists from the 1940's, 50's and 60's..but much like Notre Dame. and Service Academy football, they've not been relevant in the national scene other than the occasional blips on the radar.

Me? I'm 22. Just past the Kosar era.

My first Browns related memory is the move. I knew to hate Modeell. and I was excited for the return, and my only two seasons of not-sucking was in '02 and 07.

Pretty much the reason why there's even a fanbase at my generation's level was in due part to our fathers drilling into us that, yes, this is your team and you're to support it.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby swerb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:00 pm

Triple-S wrote:Pretty much the reason why there's even a fanbase at my generation's level was in due part to our fathers drilling into us that, yes, this is your team and you're to support it.

"You will be forced to suffer as I have son." ~ What I tell my kid
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Liondrew » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:05 pm

It wouldn't matter if the Browns drafted Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas in next year's draft. The bottom line is, if you trade picks to move up to get another quarterback, he's going to inherit the same Swiss-cheese offensive line and the same wide receivers who can't catch a cold.

The way forward is to take that first-round pick, or picks, and get a lockdown right tackle, someone who can hold down the right side of the line like Thomas does on the left-hand side. Then get a #1 wide receiver to give McCoy someone to throw to. McCoy's stats aren't that far off other quarterbacks with a similar amount of experience-he hasn't been that bad considering that he's had practically nothing to work with (not to mention a coach that apparently doesn't care if he suffers brain damage from a helmet-to-helmet collision).

I don't know if McCoy is the guy, I really don't. But I know that if you don't put at least a semi-decent offense around him, it doesn't matter if you have Luck, Griffin, McCoy, or anybody else. That's, among other things, the problem the Browns have had all these years-they never give ANY quarterback a real chance to succeed.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:08 pm

swerb wrote:Or he says F it and coaches the team.

Thing is - I'd rather have Fisher or Cowher coach.


^^^^
This

This whole thing has been a charade. The Walrus will come riding over the hill like the Calvary and rescue the day. SHUR will get demoted to OC or fired, and the big guy will have his last tango as Browns HC.

Seem's pretty obvious to me. But I also take a ton of psychotropics. (smoke)
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:11 pm

Let us not forget this:

The Pittsburgh Steelers originated in 1933. They did not have their first winning season until their 10th year of existence. In the first 39 years of the franchise, they had 7 winning seasons, 0 championships, more than 100 games under .500 (168-270). During that time, they had 16 Head Coaches and 27 different opening day QB's.

Not sure if that has anything to do with anything, but it's interesting nonetheless.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:14 pm

bookelly wrote:This whole thing has been a charade. The Walrus will come riding over the hill like the Calvary and rescue the day.


Hail to thee Kamp Krusty on the shores of big snake lake.
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:15 pm

^^^^ Same scenario as me SSS.... I'm 26 though. My pops has given up on Cleveland's chances of a title, but he still follows the teams for the hell of it. Any conversation about the Tribe/Cavs/Browns inevitably ends up with him saying: "It's the Cleveland Curse, man." I will remain a moronic optimist until.....
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Liondrew » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:16 pm

Cowher would be the perfect coach for this team. Someone who understands the rivalry with the Steelers, because he has been on both sides of it. Of course, I don't know if Randy Lerner has enough money to convince him to come back to coaching-and he's a billionaire.

I just want someone who at least pretends to care about winning, and about beating Pittsburgh and Baltimore.
Last edited by Liondrew on Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:21 pm

Here's the thing with Cowher... he's gonna want to be able to name his Front Office. So you'd have to get rid of Holmgren and Heckert to get a Cowher. Now, I know some of you are saying "Fine! Do it!" But it's not like Holmgren is gonna fire himself, and we all know he is de facto Owner pretty much as long as he wants to be.

Besides, Cowher promised something to the Rooneys about not coaching in the AFC North, so you can cross him off.

Which you might want to do anyway, since it's been 6 years since he coached last. I may be wrong, but I doubt there have been a bunch of coaches come back from such a long layoff to enjoy enduring success.

Let him go F up the Fins, spittin' all over himself and what not.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:23 pm

FUDU wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:.
stuff


Not a Gruden hater or supporter here, but couldn't the opposing argument be it took a Gruden to get the ring Dungy couldn't (in Tampa)?

Dungy had arguably the best QB in decades at his side and he won 1 ring...or you could say he was part of the ceremony at least.

It's just too hard to know, IMO.


Yeah, you're right. And winning a Super Bowl, no matter who's players you do it with, isn't some kind of black mark on his CV. It's impressive no matter how you slice it.

I was more referring to his entire body of work. He somehow has a reputation of being a beat coach. One of the elite. But when you look, it really isn't that impressive.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby swerb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:24 pm

Cowher might work with Heckert.

Don't see Kevin Colbert leaving the Inbred to come here, even if Cowher were to.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:27 pm

swerb wrote:Cowher might work with Heckert.

Don't see Kevin Colbert leaving the Inbred to come here, even if Cowher were to.


I agree with both parts of this... just don't see Holmgren making that particular move.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Liondrew » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:30 pm

Triple-S wrote:The message that is drilled into your head from the Browns marketing team is this supposed tradition that exists from the 1940's, 50's and 60's..but much like Notre Dame. and Service Academy football, they've not been relevant in the national scene other than the occasional blips on the radar.

Me? I'm 22. Just past the Kosar era.

My first Browns related memory is the move. I knew to hate Modeell. and I was excited for the return, and my only two seasons of not-sucking was in '02 and 07.

Pretty much the reason why there's even a fanbase at my generation's level was in due part to our fathers drilling into us that, yes, this is your team and you're to support it.


That's about all you have if you can't at least remember back to the Bud Carson/Bill Belichick days. I can remember back to when Marty was the coach. It seems like the memories of the "old" Browns are getting dimmer by the year though.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:31 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Here's the thing with Cowher... he's gonna want to be able to name his Front Office. So you'd have to get rid of Holmgren and Heckert to get a Cowher. Now, I know some of you are saying "Fine! Do it!" But it's not like Holmgren is gonna fire himself, and we all know he is de facto Owner pretty much as long as he wants to be.

Besides, Cowher promised something to the Rooneys about not coaching in the AFC North, so you can cross him off.


Is it bad business for Cowher to take over the Browns, if you're the Steelers?

Just purely hypothetical in trying to think of why the Rooney's don't want him to have that job in particular.

Do they figure that the Browns are going to magically become relevant and beat them for the next 30 years if he takes over?
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Liondrew » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:34 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Here's the thing with Cowher... he's gonna want to be able to name his Front Office. So you'd have to get rid of Holmgren and Heckert to get a Cowher. Now, I know some of you are saying "Fine! Do it!" But it's not like Holmgren is gonna fire himself, and we all know he is de facto Owner pretty much as long as he wants to be.

Besides, Cowher promised something to the Rooneys about not coaching in the AFC North, so you can cross him off.

Which you might want to do anyway, since it's been 6 years since he coached last. I may be wrong, but I doubt there have been a bunch of coaches come back from such a long layoff to enjoy enduring success.

Let him go F up the Fins, spittin' all over himself and what not.


What about Dick Vermeil? He was away for about 15 years. It took him a couple of seasons, but he won a Super Bowl with the Rams (went 13-3 in 1999) and had a couple of good seasons with the Chiefs. Of course, maybe he's the exception.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:36 pm

Triple-S wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Here's the thing with Cowher... he's gonna want to be able to name his Front Office. So you'd have to get rid of Holmgren and Heckert to get a Cowher. Now, I know some of you are saying "Fine! Do it!" But it's not like Holmgren is gonna fire himself, and we all know he is de facto Owner pretty much as long as he wants to be.

Besides, Cowher promised something to the Rooneys about not coaching in the AFC North, so you can cross him off.


Is it bad business for Cowher to take over the Browns, if you're the Steelers?

Just purely hypothetical in trying to think of why the Rooney's don't want him to have that job in particular.

Do they figure that the Browns are going to magically become relevant and beat them for the next 30 years if he takes over?


Why not? The Rooneys (the older ones at least) remember 30+ years of getting ass-whupped by the Browns. Everything is cyclical.

But I doubt that's the case so much anymore. I'd guess they'd be more likely to not care if Cowher came back to the Browns at this point, but 6 years ago when he was still in his prime and the Browns were less of a joke than they are now... yeah, they probably didn't want that.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:41 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Why not? The Rooneys (the older ones at least) remember 30+ years of getting ass-whupped by the Browns. Everything is cyclical.

But I doubt that's the case so much anymore. I'd guess they'd be more likely to not care if Cowher came back to the Browns at this point, but 6 years ago when he was still in his prime and the Browns were less of a joke than they are now... yeah, they probably didn't want that.


You're also not even talking about the same Browns.

Art wouldn't seem like he'd be on good terms with the Rooney's, maybe that's just me.

And yeah, your point is taken about that. In 99, the Browns were rumor to try to take him, The Rooney's freaked and re-upped his deal.
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Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:49 pm

Triple-S wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Why not? The Rooneys (the older ones at least) remember 30+ years of getting ass-whupped by the Browns. Everything is cyclical.

But I doubt that's the case so much anymore. I'd guess they'd be more likely to not care if Cowher came back to the Browns at this point, but 6 years ago when he was still in his prime and the Browns were less of a joke than they are now... yeah, they probably didn't want that.


You're also not even talking about the same Browns.

Art wouldn't seem like he'd be on good terms with the Rooney's, maybe that's just me.

And yeah, your point is taken about that. In 99, the Browns were rumor to try to take him, The Rooney's freaked and re-upped his deal.


My point is that the Steelers sucked for near 40 years, then happened upon the right Coach-QB combo, won 4 SB's in a decade, and then had their organizational reputation set right there.

If the Steelers believed (especially 6 years ago) that Cowher was the kind of Coach that turns organizations around, they certainly wouldn't have wanted him going to a division rival.

Now... I doubt they'd be afraid of Cowher. If the guy had the burning desire to come back and do what it takes to be a great Coach in this league, it would've already happened. The fire is gone. If he comes back now, it's for the money. So, sure, let the Browns pay bookoo bucks to bring back a dude that doesn't really have his heart in it.

Oh, and I came up with the counterpoint to my own point... Dick Vermeil.

There ya go. One in 1000. Good odds.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:03 pm

Hikohadon wrote:Let us not forget this:

The Pittsburgh Steelers originated in 1933. They did not have their first winning season until their 10th year of existence. In the first 39 years of the franchise, they had 7 winning seasons, 0 championships, more than 100 games under .500 (168-270). During that time, they had 16 Head Coaches and 27 different opening day QB's.

Not sure if that has anything to do with anything, but it's interesting nonetheless.


That is some type of urban myth. Every Steeler fan I know has disavowed all franchise history prior to 1975.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Doc » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:03 pm

Well...it appears that there are going to be some interesting scenarios playing out soon.

RG3 seems to be the real deal...to the point that we might have to deal up to get him, if so inclined. It almost seemed we might luck into him, with us possibly nabbing 4 and Blackmon/Kalil seeming likely targets for STL and Minnesota. But, if RG3 is entering 2nd overall prospect territory, we have some serious issues to consider.

A) Is RG3 worth both 1sts this year or our first 1st this year and next year's first? If Barkley is there at 4, is he the pick then? If Barkley doesn't declare, do you now have to trade up for RG3? Do you sit tight at 4 and take BPA like Blackmon possibly?

B) I dunno, I almost feel like Shurmur is being set up to fail. I mean...if you buy into the "same agent" hype...well, Shurmur got paid. Getting fired isn't going to keep that from happening. If Shurmur bombs, and he has, well, now you've got Concussion-gate. You haven't heard dick from Walrus because he's hanging Shurmur out there. Shurmur didn't do anything necessarily wrong, but it's getting enough heat that you could use it as a fireable offense. It's a perfect reason to fire someone, but with pay. And you know Jammies will keep fronting money for new coaches. Especially when Walrus pitches him a big name that is "just becoming available". That's my bet...they lucked into a reason to fire Shurmur after 1 year (besides overall shittiness as an OC and HC). They'll throw Fort Knox at the biggest name to sign here, and entice them with the picks to get RG3...and plenty of cap space to make a splash in Free Agency.

A is more serious discussion, re: where's the value...trading 2 1sts for RG3, or sitting tight at 4 and taking Barkley? Or if Barkley doesn't declare, does that force the Browns' hand?

B is more opinion (obviously). But, Jammies is committed. If Walrus says spend, Jammies has to say "how much?" Maybe the Shurmur hire was 2 birds, 1 stone...installing Walrus philosophies and doing a solid for a friend/agent. And if it worked, even better. But, I can't imagine Walrus tying his legacy to that jagoff after seeing 13 games worth of mistakes. Now is the time to strike...#4 overall in sight, fireable shitty coach, deep pockets, and, well, deep pockets.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:16 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
Hikohadon wrote:Let us not forget this:

The Pittsburgh Steelers originated in 1933. They did not have their first winning season until their 10th year of existence. In the first 39 years of the franchise, they had 7 winning seasons, 0 championships, more than 100 games under .500 (168-270). During that time, they had 16 Head Coaches and 27 different opening day QB's.

Not sure if that has anything to do with anything, but it's interesting nonetheless.


That is some type of urban myth. Every Steeler fan I know has disavowed all franchise history prior to 1975.


'Tis true. History has been wiped off the Western PA curriculum. Along with Reedin and Rite-in.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:30 pm

According to CBSSports.com, offensive tackle Matt Kalil will be staying at Southern Cal for the 2012 season. It's never a shock when a good player who's likely a mid-round pick stays, but when he's best player at his position and possible top-five pick, it's news.

Well this might make things a lot more interesting now
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:06 am

Cleveland Matt wrote:According to CBSSports.com, offensive tackle Matt Kalil will be staying at Southern Cal for the 2012 season. It's never a shock when a good player who's likely a mid-round pick stays, but when he's best player at his position and possible top-five pick, it's news.

Well this might make things a lot more interesting now


What a dick.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:09 am

Looking at some numbers (I'm huge into statistical analysis ;-) ;) :wink: ):

Pat Shurmur's '09 Rams offense was last in league at 10.9 ppg
Last year they scored 18 ppg
This year they are at 11.7ppg

The '11 Browns are averaging 13.7 ppg.

The WCO protege has never had an offense average 19ppg.

Just thought it was worth noting.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:03 am

peeker643 wrote:Looking at some numbers (I'm huge into statistical analysis ;-) ;) :wink: ):

Pat Shurmur's '09 Rams offense was last in league at 10.9 ppg
Last year they scored 18 ppg
This year they are at 11.7ppg

The '11 Browns are averaging 13.7 ppg.

The WCO protege has never had an offense average 19ppg.

Just thought it was worth noting.


However, when you compare those numbers to "other guys that employ outdated offenses in which the other team knows every play," they compare very well.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:28 am

Cleveland Matt wrote:According to CBSSports.com, offensive tackle Matt Kalil will be staying at Southern Cal for the 2012 season. It's never a shock when a good player who's likely a mid-round pick stays, but when he's best player at his position and possible top-five pick, it's news.

Well this might make things a lot more interesting now


If Kalil is staying then the chances Barkley stay just went up exponentially. USC gets to go to a bowl game next season, and if Barkley and Kalil come back, that teams going to compete for a title.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:35 am

Cleveland Matt wrote:According to CBSSports.com, offensive tackle Matt Kalil will be staying at Southern Cal for the 2012 season. It's never a shock when a good player who's likely a mid-round pick stays, but when he's best player at his position and possible top-five pick, it's news.

Well this might make things a lot more interesting now



Refuted in the LA Times

http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/usc/la-sp-1213-barkley-usc-juniors-20111213,0,4086137.story

Matt Kalil was sleeping soundly, the writing of a term paper his next priority.

Instead, Kalil awoke last week to what he called "mayhem."

A website, citing an unidentified source, reported that the All-American tackle was "set to return" to USC rather than turn pro, causing Kalil's phone and Twitter account to explode with messages.

Kalil said later in an interview that he wasn't close to making a decision — players have until mid-January to declare for the NFL draft —- but the episode illustrated the pressures and distractions that he and three teammates are facing as they decide whether to return for a final college season.
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