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The heresy has started

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The heresy has started

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:50 pm

Pftalk advancing the notion RG3 maybe drafted ahead of Luck ...

Robert Griffin III, the Baylor quarterback who beat out Luck for the Heisman Trophy, has so much promise that one NFL personnel director told ESPN’s Adam Schefter that there are people around the league who prefer Griffin to Luck. Schefter spoke to two other personnel directors, one who described Griffin as a surefire first-round pick, and another who said he’ll go in the Top 15.

It’s easy to see why scouts would fall in love with Griffin: His passing numbers are ridiculous, with a 72.4 percent completion rate, an average of 10.4 yards a pass, and 36 touchdowns to only six interceptions. And there’s never been a quarterback who has Griffin’s athleticism:

SD:

Don't know if anybody has the guts or the ammo to trade up with Indy and not take Luck , but if I was Holmgren , I'd have my deal on the table with whoever is second come the end of the season .

our two number ones are now in play.


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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:01 pm

I see Indy keeping their pick. But as if this Luck/Manning conundrum hasn't been interesting enough.... RGIII's draft stock sharply rises.... really looking forward to see how this will play out....
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby swerb » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:19 pm

I agree. If I'm the Walrus, I immediately start trying to find a way to get one of the top two picks.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:21 pm

swerb wrote:If I'm the Walrus, I immediately start trying to find a way to get one of the top two picks.


Are we sure he's even still alive? I'm beginning to wonder if his rare appearances are just the body double that Randy Lerner is paying to show up in public and make it look like we still have a "Team President".
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:29 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
swerb wrote:If I'm the Walrus, I immediately start trying to find a way to get one of the top two picks.


Are we sure he's even still alive? I'm beginning to wonder if his rare appearances are just the body double that Randy Lerner is paying to show up in public and make it look like we still have a "Team President".


Do either of those guys "fit his system," cause it seems like Holmgren believes (contrary to the history of how to win in the NFL) the players should be pounded into a system, instead of molding a system to players strengths.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:34 pm

Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:00 pm

Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.

Normally I'd agree with that statement, but not under these circumstances. To me, this is a once in every 5 years type of draft for QB's. Any team that has a ? at quarterback should go after RGIII or Luck with all they've got. These are 2 guys that have franchise quarterback written all over them. Get the QB. Get a receiver. Get an O-Lineman. Get a Linebacker. Success mightfollow.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:34 pm

you are not getting the WR, Olinemen, or the LB if you have to trade up to get the QB in the draft. I just don't see the Browns being able to fill these holes in free agency like they could with the draft. Unless you want to make Deseasn Jackson one of the top 5 WR in the league. Who wants to come to this team with a guy like Shurmur as the coach.

They need to do whatever they can to get John Gruden as the next coach of the Browns. Holmgren is stopping any real coach from wanting to come here. He needs to go as long as Heck stays
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:59 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:SD:

Don't know if anybody has the guts or the ammo to trade up with Indy and not take Luck , but if I was Holmgren , I'd have my deal on the table with whoever is second come the end of the season .

our two number ones are now in play.


SoulDawg


Ok, Stud Muffin. Call your shot. And please don't give me Holmgren is a pussy because he didn't trade up to get Jake Locker or whatever other stiff you supposedly wanted. No revisionist history as to how you just knew Dalton was the schizznit.

No past - only futures. You want the #1 or #2?

Tell us how. What do we offer? How do we play it? What other teams are in the mix? Break it down and 'splain it to me.

Gracias
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:23 pm

Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.


You can't say he's smart, and then say he's gonna stay.

Not even a choice if ya got half a brain, which he more than does.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby pup » Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:36 pm

leadpipe wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.


You can't say he's smart, and then say he's gonna stay.

Not even a choice if ya got half a brain, which he more than does.


I agree he might want to stay. He seems to be that kind of guy.

But as Lead says, if he chooses to stay, I cross him off my board in 2013 as well. With Luck being the exception to the rule, staying is a really bad plan. And even with Luck...listen to some NFL guys talk right now. They have spent all year TRYING to find a reason he is not #1.

All of that is even before we get into the injury side.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:05 am

leadpipe wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.


You can't say he's smart, and then say he's gonna stay.

Not even a choice if ya got half a brain, which he more than does.



He is a smart guy in that he realizes that he needs to have something after football. He made the honor roll every semester and finished his degree in political science in three years! He's getting his master's degree in communications in the spring and applying to Baylor law school. This is what I meant the NFL is not his only opinion like a lot of these kids who come out of college.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:33 am

Cleveland Matt wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.


You can't say he's smart, and then say he's gonna stay.

Not even a choice if ya got half a brain, which he more than does.



He is a smart guy in that he realizes that he needs to have something after football. He made the honor roll every semester and finished his degree in political science in three years! He's getting his master's degree in communications in the spring and applying to Baylor law school. This is what I meant the NFL is not his only opinion like a lot of these kids who come out of college.


I realize all of this. So does he.

And he understands that all his smarts and degrees aren't going to get him in a lifetime for what he makes with one signature in the spring.

For playing a game.

So, the NFL isn't his only option, but it's the best one, by far - and one that he can jeapordize beforehand with an injury.

He's very smart, and very in the draft.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:48 am

mattvan1 wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:SD:

Don't know if anybody has the guts or the ammo to trade up with Indy and not take Luck , but if I was Holmgren , I'd have my deal on the table with whoever is second come the end of the season .

our two number ones are now in play.


SoulDawg


Ok, Stud Muffin. Call your shot. And please don't give me Holmgren is a pussy because he didn't trade up to get Jake Locker or whatever other stiff you supposedly wanted. No revisionist history as to how you just knew Dalton was the schizznit.

No past - only futures. You want the #1 or #2?

Tell us how. What do we offer? How do we play it? What other teams are in the mix? Break it down and 'splain it to me.

Gracias


SD:

First of all Holmgren didn't have to trade up to get Luck , I said he was a value pick at our spot provided you signed a vet like Hasselback to mentor him out of the gate.

The Tits picked that exact kid and that exact vet to mentor him and he lopks like he'll finish out their season and see if he can keep their slim playoff hopes alive.

For the record , I said Holmgren was an asshole for not looking at trading up with Carolina for Newton and for bypassing QB altogether in the last draft when there were guys four rounds deep possessing superior skill sets to the table than Charlie McCoy .

After ignoring me then in real time ,you
now want a freebie on demand before all the facts are in and all the positions and draft orders are set .

That would take about three pages of variables and possibilities at this point , which I won't be going into now , but will later when I know for a fact who number two is , where Washington finishes ,the position of Miami who we also have to be concerned with , and if we can have two or more teams ahead of us from the NFC if we finish fourth for possible trade pardners.

We need those teams to be St Louis or Minny both out of our conference , , because Jacksonvile would more favorably deal with Washington out of the conference than us ,
for the same reasons the NFC would rather make trades with them .

Both have #1 picks at QB and we may have some pull left in St louis if Spags ain't fired and Shurmur didn't burn those bridges.

The amount we have to pay in compensation depends on how far we finish from either, and whose upping the anty .

if it was tomorrow before this chart gets upgraded , from the 9th spot both of our #1's would be forfeit +.
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We get to #4 and they can land a guy they have targeted (Blackmon ), plus grab some picks ,
maybe we can wiggle out of that #1 but don't count on it with Shannahands balls in a vice at Washington .

The only reason you don't pull that trigger is if you know for sure he's got a hard on for Barkley , but if your wrong then you'll have been out maneuvered worse than when Boozer slicked his way out of Cleveland.

Why take that chance.

A Franchise pick is worth 2 #1's invariably you have to use next years number one to move up and get one , unless your lucky enough to be dealing with a clown like Mangina and Kokinis

If you have to use both while keeping your 2013 intact , but secured a talent like RG3 in the process , then you do what you have to do and be proactive because getting a true franchise changing high impact franchise player like that is worth every penny.

Certainly you'd like to do that deal for less , but if somebody says tomorrow give me both and I give you RG3 , Its time to step up or step off.

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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:51 am

leadpipe wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.


You can't say he's smart, and then say he's gonna stay.

Not even a choice if ya got half a brain, which he more than does.



He is a smart guy in that he realizes that he needs to have something after football. He made the honor roll every

semester and finished his degree in political science in three years! He's getting his master's degree in communications in the spring and applying to Baylor law school. This is what I meant the NFL is not his only opinion like a lot of these kids who come out of college.


I realize all of this. So does he.


And he understands that all his smarts and degrees aren't going to get him in a lifetime for what he makes with one signature in the spring.

For playing a game.

So, the NFL isn't his only option, but it's the best one, by far - and one that he can jeapordize beforehand with an injury.

He's very smart, and very in the draft.


Yes. And unless he's planning on getting his law degree in one year I'm not sure what the draw would be. There's too much at stake no to return at this point.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby mistero » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:38 am

They need to do whatever they can to get John Gruden as the next coach of the Browns. Holmgren is stopping any real coach from wanting to come here. He needs to go as long as Heck stays

I agree with this a million times over. Holmgren's presence prohibits anything but a puppet HC.

I would offer 2 1st rounders in 2012 and 1st rounder in 2013 and Colt McCoy for Indy's pick. I wouldn't deal if I was them,but you never know I guess.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby swerb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:19 am

Jon Gruden and Robert Griffin III. Or Pat Effing Shurmur and Colt McCoy.

Seems easy to me.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:28 am

Sigh..... being a Browns fan means never being happy or getting what you want...

Just more wishin and hopin

You know, like wishin Gruden had been hired and hopin that RG# becomes a brown

If I had to bet I'd lay odds they go all in on D... just 'going with my gut' tells me
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby trsteve1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:22 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Sigh..... being a Browns fan means never being happy or getting what you want...

Just more wishin and hopin

You know, like wishin Gruden had been hired and hopin that RG# becomes a brown

If I had to bet I'd lay odds they go all in on D... just 'going with my gut' tells me


More than that. Being a Browns fan means knowing that anyone we pick will be a bust (Couch, C. Brown, Gerard Warren, William Green, Edwards, B. Quinn) or get injured (Winslow).. or be crazy (Winslow again, Edwards)

Especially if they are selected high in the draft (Joe Thomas being a small exception to this rule).. Joe Haden looks good thus far, but he could always be due for a regression =/.. the same goes for Mack

I think the Browns will trade out of their top 10 pick for another 1st rounder next year, dunno, just seems like something HeckRus would do..
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:25 am

SoulDawg74 wrote: A Franchise pick is worth 2 #1's invariably you have to use next years number one to move up and get one , unless your lucky enough to be dealing with a clown like Mangina and Kokinis

If you have to use both while keeping your 2013 intact , but secured a talent like RG3 in the process , then you do what you have to do and be proactive because getting a true franchise changing high impact franchise player like that is worth every penny.

Certainly you'd like to do that deal for less , but if somebody says tomorrow give me both and I give you RG3 , Its time to step up or step off.

SoulDawg


Thanks. So if I read correctly, your position is our two first round picks in 2012, (currently 9 and 23) and possibly our first round pick in 2013, and we probably need to get in the 4 hole?

I would agree, but if you believe the draft value chart we might be able to move up and still keep the 2013 first rounder.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:36 am

We've been beaten into submission badly enough to think of Jon Gruden as a viable head coaching candidate. And to think we had Jim Harbaugh right there for the taking too.

In any case, one of Luck, RGIII, or Barkley and I'm a happy camper next April.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:38 am

Browns have gone cheap on the QB position ever since Tim Couch didn't pan out. It's the new franchise's downfall. Only Phil Savage placed a premium on getting a QB, if you can call drafting a QB in the final portion of the first round going all-out for a QB. Of course, that cost him his job when it didn't work.

But if you really need a QB and don't place a premium on getting one this draft, you shouldn't have a job anymore either.
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:24 am

mattvan1 wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote: A Franchise pick is worth 2 #1's invariably you have to use next years number one to move up and get one , unless your lucky enough to be dealing with a clown like Mangina and Kokinis

If you have to use both while keeping your 2013 intact , but secured a talent like RG3 in the process , then you do what you have to do and be proactive because getting a true franchise changing high impact franchise player like that is worth every penny.

Certainly you'd like to do that deal for less , but if somebody says tomorrow give me both and I give you RG3 , Its time to step up or step off.

SoulDawg


Thanks. So if I read correctly, your position is our two first round picks in 2012, (currently 9 and 23) and possibly our first round pick in 2013, and we probably need to get in the 4 hole?

I would agree, but if you believe the draft value chart we might be able to move up and still keep the 2013 first rounder.


SD:

Nope I wouldn't use all three picks unless I was going after #1 , and there is no need with #2 being one hell of a consolation prize .

We have the cheddar , the extra number one was paid for last year , its a bonus if we can net RG3 without using it this year , but must be used as the asset it was meant to be , firepower to net a Franchise pick if McCoy wasn't the answer , first and foremost .

All other considerations and wish lists for the use of that pick are secondary.

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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:36 am

leadpipe wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.


You can't say he's smart, and then say he's gonna stay.

Not even a choice if ya got half a brain, which he more than does.


Plus I think he's already going to graduate this year.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:07 pm

RG will wiat to see who may be drafting him....

If its the Browns he'll go back to school

No way he'd be looking to go to the city where QB's go to die
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Re: The heresy gas started

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:14 pm

JCoz wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:Come on there are way too many holes on this team for the Browns to trade both those first round picks. We are all living in a fantasy world if you think by drafting RG3 in this offense with Shurmur as the OC/head coach the Browns are going to be better. One guy is not going to help this team right now we are not that close to being a playoff team.

Plus I think RG3 goes back to Baylor for another year. You can mark my words and call me crazy. This kid is smart and comes from a good family. He is not some poor kid that needs to get his family out of a bad situation. It is just like Luck last year.


You can't say he's smart, and then say he's gonna stay.

Not even a choice if ya got half a brain, which he more than does.


Plus I think he's already going to graduate this year.


He actually graduated a year ago.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Ziner » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:55 pm

Don't forget how well spoken he is.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:11 pm

I don't care which one we get - I just want one of Luck or RG3.

Are people really wanting freakin' Chuckie? Ick. Personally, I have no interest in that d-bag. Yeah, I understand that he's better than Shurmur, but we as Cleveland fans really have to get out of the habit of using "at least he's better than" comparisons when describing what we want. Aiming for mediocrity is even more usless than outright suck because you're just good enough to not get the players that will make a difference.

I want Shurmur gone, but I want someone better than Chuckie to replace him. Doesn't have to be a guy with experience, just someone good. Chuckie sucks with QB's, I don't want him anywhere near Luck/RG3.

There is no reason for RG3 to go back to school, it would be stupid, he can do nothing but hurt his stock and potentially cost himself millions of dollars while opening himself up for injury. It's not like school won't still be there when he's done in the NFL, and he'll be one of the few people able to afford tuition.

Luck was wrong for going back. He's Luck-y that he didn't hurt his stock, but he certainly didn't improve it, he would've been #1 overall last year too. You don't go back unless you feel it will significantly improve your draft position. I think the only reason he went back was the uncertainty of the CBA.

Toss out the draft chart, Matt. It's meaningless now with the Rookie Scale and the fact that it's Luck. It'll take both #1's this year and the #1 next year to move from #4 to #1. At least.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby LakeErieWarriors » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:52 pm

"Are people really wanting freakin' Chuckie? Ick. Personally, I have no interest in that d-bag. Yeah, I understand that he's better than Shurmur, but we as Cleveland fans really have to get out of the habit of using "at least he's better than" comparisons when describing what we want. Aiming for mediocrity is even more usless than outright suck because you're just good enough to not get the players that will make a difference.

I want Shurmur gone, but I want someone better than Chuckie to replace him. Doesn't have to be a guy with experience, just someone good. Chuckie sucks with QB's, I don't want him anywhere near Luck/RG3."
I think you're underrating Gruden big time. I think he's up there with the best of them, Harbaugh included. Chuckie HAS experience. Chuckie DID win a Super Bowl with Brad "Effing" Johnson. I'd rather have a coach with offensive success (Gruden), Than a coach with offensive dreams of success (Shurmur).
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:04 pm

LakeErieWarriors wrote:"Are people really wanting freakin' Chuckie? Ick. Personally, I have no interest in that d-bag. Yeah, I understand that he's better than Shurmur, but we as Cleveland fans really have to get out of the habit of using "at least he's better than" comparisons when describing what we want. Aiming for mediocrity is even more usless than outright suck because you're just good enough to not get the players that will make a difference.

I want Shurmur gone, but I want someone better than Chuckie to replace him. Doesn't have to be a guy with experience, just someone good. Chuckie sucks with QB's, I don't want him anywhere near Luck/RG3."
I think you're underrating Gruden big time. I think he's up there with the best of them, Harbaugh included. Chuckie HAS experience. Chuckie DID win a Super Bowl with Brad "Effing" Johnson. I'd rather have a coach with offensive success (Gruden), Than a coach with offensive dreams of success (Shurmur).


I'm sorry, I must've missed the part where the Tampa Offense had anything to do with that SB win.

There's a faction of people that think Gruden's a good coach. I'm just not one of them. There's really no reason to argue this - I'd be shocked if he leaves the booth.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:25 pm

LakeErieWarriors wrote:I think you're underrating Gruden big time. I think he's up there with the best of them, Harbaugh included. Chuckie HAS experience. Chuckie DID win a Super Bowl with Brad "Effing" Johnson. I'd rather have a coach with offensive success (Gruden), Than a coach with offensive dreams of success (Shurmur).


I think maybe you're overrating Gruden. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't hate him here. He's definitely better than Paddy, but so would Hiko with LP and Peeker as his coordinators and SD as QB coach.

I used to think the same thing about Gruden. He did win a Super Bowl...with Dungy's players. Go look up his record. I think you'll be surprised. I know I was. I'll bet your first thought is "jeez, I thought it was a lot more impressive than that."
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:48 pm

Not that I want him to be fired, but Jason Garrett is very much on the hot seat.

Another Clevelander. Just throwing his name out there.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:49 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
LakeErieWarriors wrote:"Are people really wanting freakin' Chuckie? Ick. Personally, I have no interest in that d-bag. Yeah, I understand that he's better than Shurmur, but we as Cleveland fans really have to get out of the habit of using "at least he's better than" comparisons when describing what we want. Aiming for mediocrity is even more usless than outright suck because you're just good enough to not get the players that will make a difference.

I want Shurmur gone, but I want someone better than Chuckie to replace him. Doesn't have to be a guy with experience, just someone good. Chuckie sucks with QB's, I don't want him anywhere near Luck/RG3."
I think you're underrating Gruden big time. I think he's up there with the best of them, Harbaugh included. Chuckie HAS experience. Chuckie DID win a Super Bowl with Brad "Effing" Johnson. I'd rather have a coach with offensive success (Gruden), Than a coach with offensive dreams of success (Shurmur).


I'm sorry, I must've missed the part where the Tampa Offense had anything to do with that SB win.

There's a faction of people that think Gruden's a good coach. I'm just not one of them. There's really no reason to argue this - I'd be shocked if he leaves the booth.


I agree 100%. I wonder sometimes if people remember what the last few years of his HC careeer actually looked like. Dude and his team were a total mess by the end.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:58 pm

I like Chuckie, maybe he won't be a Super Bowl coach winning coach, but at least he'll bring some form of competencies to being the Head Coach He'd also understand the tradition, the history, what it means, and the rivalries in the area. He'd work his ass every weekend, and with Heckert in the FO, and Holmgren above, RGIII taking snaps on Sunday behind an improved offensive line in free agency, and some receivers...things are suddenly looking up.

In regards to Hiko's comment on TB, that really wasn't his team when he took over. That was Dungy's team that he had taken over and he had figured out a way to finally put them over the top. I more so look at the RAIDAHS when I think of Gruden, and what he was able to pull off with Gannon and co., who I may add were one tuck rule away from a Super Bowl title (do they beat the 01 rams? not sure, but they'd have given them a damn good game). And, yes, if Dungy isn't fired, and Gruden keeps the job they win it in 02, and more than likely win it handily.

His chances of taking the job or getting it are slim in my books though. But damn, it'd be nice wouldn't it? Would bring some buzz to the Browns, make the team look more attractive in the eyes of free agents, make the Browns a relevant name on the nationl scene. Suddenly instead of seeing some idiot like Shurmer or Crennel slouching on the sidelines we're seeing this guy get into a refs face on a bad call during a pre-season game. Dream staff with him at the helm? Reid as OC, Jauron as DC.

But at the same time, the Browns need to find their own guy. Shurmer's not it. They need to find their own Cowher, Parcells, Walsh, Belichick, Noll, Landry..A guy who can help achieve a winning culture that strives at being the best and being a championship team. That doesn't just want mediocrity in his mind, a guy who has his eyes set on the Lombard and nothing else. The culture in Berea is a so messed up and pathetic at the moment. From the Staph infections to the unhappy players to the losing. Something needs to be done. Staying the course with this guy isn't the answer.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:25 pm

How good a coach he is has nothing to do with making the choice between these two;

1. Working 16 hours a day, with constant pressure from media and fans

or

2. Working 16 hours a week while having Mike Tirico guffah at your every comment.

That guy won't coach another down unless he's 86ed outta that booth.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:32 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:Not that I want him to be fired, but Jason Garrett is very much on the hot seat.

Another Clevelander. Just throwing his name out there.


Have Jason Garrett and Pat Shurmur ever been seen at the same place at the same time?
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:37 pm

Hikohadon wrote:
Rat_Tail wrote:Not that I want him to be fired, but Jason Garrett is very much on the hot seat.

Another Clevelander. Just throwing his name out there.


Have Jason Garrett and Pat Shurmur ever been seen at the same place at the same time?


If they were and if Garret became the OC, I don't think I'd bitch
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:39 pm

leadpipe wrote:How good a coach he is has nothing to do with making the choice between these two;

1. Working 16 hours a day, with constant pressure from media and fans

or

2. Working 16 hours a week while having Mike Tirico guffah at your every comment.

That guy won't coach another down unless he's 86ed outta that booth.


pretty much this.

plus ESPN's paying him out the ass.

My only remote theory is that he still has a craving to get back out there, but that's looking remote.

Holmgren would really have to back the brinks truck up for him.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby swerb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:50 pm

Two words.

Jeff Fucking Fisher.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:53 pm

swerb wrote:Two words.

Jeff Fucking Fisher.


Read my mind.

hopefully miami doesn't get to him first.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby swerb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:02 pm

Triple-S wrote:
swerb wrote:Two words.

Jeff Fucking Fisher.


Read my mind.

hopefully miami doesn't get to him first.

Chiefs and Dolphins racing to get at those two. While we putz around with Holmgren's buddies puppet nephew who has the same agent as him.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:23 pm

Triple-S wrote:I like Chuckie, maybe he won't be a Super Bowl coach winning coach, but at least he'll bring some form of competencies to being the Head Coach He'd also understand the tradition, the history, what it means, and the rivalries in the area.


Not directed at you in a negative way SSS , but I've about had it with the talk of 'tradition' and 'history'. You're in your early 20's, right?

What's your sense of tradition and history as it pertains to the Browns? It's losing piled on losing with a move to Baltimore thrown in the middle of more losing. Jon Gruden is roughly my age, maybe a few years older. He grew up with the same shitty 70's Browns I did and his reference is losing, losing, losing, couple good years, losing, move, expansion, losing.

And my sense of history and tradition is a couple good years swallowed up by shit and pre-dated by what I read about the salad days.

Let's say I was 7 when I sat next to the old man and started watching. That would be 1973 or so and that's about right in terms of remembering Bill Nelsen and Milt Morin, et al.

1973 7-5-2 1974 4-10 1975 3-11 1976 9-5 1977 6-8 1978 8-8 1979 9-7
1980 11-5 1981 5-11 1982 4-5 1983 9-7 1984 5-11 1985 8-8 1986 12-4
1987 10-5-1 1988 10-6 1989 9-6-1 1990 3-13 1991 6-10 1992 7-9 1993 7-9
1994 11-5 1995 5-11 1999 2-14 2000 3-13 2001 7-9 2002 9-7 2003 5-11
2004 4-12 2005 10-6 2006 4-12 2007 10-6 2008 4-12 2009 5-11 2010 5-11

My history and tradition is 13 winning seasons out of 35. No Super Bowls, two AFC title games. My history is 237 wins and 303 losses with four ties. My history is a drive, a fumble, Red Right 88 and a collapse in Pittsburgh a few years back.

My history is Willis Adams, Mike Junkin, Gerard Warren, William Green, Greg Allen, Charles White, Don Rogers, Clifford Charlton, Tommy Vardell, Antonio Langham, Craig Powell and Brady Quinn.

It's also Romeo, Bud, Butch, Chris Palmer and Pat Shurmur.

I just think we really need to be careful when we talk about tradition and history because with each passing day that history and tradition is becoming more and more filled with shit. There are a couple generations now that don't have a tie to a winning football team and we're starting another one.

So if that's enticing to Jon Gruden or anyone else, excuse if I question WTF those guys are thinking. History and tradition is bullshit in terms of any of these guys. We'll always have a hope because there are so few of these jobs and you could luck into a good one. I don't know, maybe a guy like Belichik somehow ends up in Cleveland somehow.

Aside from that, though, I don't think I'd be selling the tradition and history angle to anyone. And Jim Brown will be dead soon. So there's that.

Like I said, you know I like ya, but I've just had it with the 'tradition' and 'history' thing.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:32 pm

swerb wrote:Two words. Jeff Fucking Fisher.


As I've noted elsewhere, it took rookie head coach Chuck Noll six years to craft a Super Bowl champion, and rookie head coach Bill Belichick seven. At the time, I thought, "Let's give Shurmur a chance to grow into the role."

But on second thought, am I willing to wait a MINIMUM of six or seven years for a Super Bowl contender? Not at my damn age, I'm not!

I like the sound of "Jeff Fucking Fisher." Even Chuckie doesn't sound bad. Anybody but a rookie head coach—which is what we've gotten six out of the seven hires since '99.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:38 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
LakeErieWarriors wrote:I think you're underrating Gruden big time. I think he's up there with the best of them, Harbaugh included. Chuckie HAS experience. Chuckie DID win a Super Bowl with Brad "Effing" Johnson. I'd rather have a coach with offensive success (Gruden), Than a coach with offensive dreams of success (Shurmur).


I think maybe you're overrating Gruden. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't hate him here. He's definitely better than Paddy, but so would Hiko with LP and Peeker as his coordinators and SD as QB coach.

I used to think the same thing about Gruden. He did win a Super Bowl...with Dungy's players. Go look up his record. I think you'll be surprised. I know I was. I'll bet your first thought is "jeez, I thought it was a lot more impressive than that."

Not a Gruden hater or supporter here, but couldn't the opposing argument be it took a Gruden to get the ring Dungy couldn't (in Tampa)?

Dungy had arguably the best QB in decades at his side and he won 1 ring...or you could say he was part of the ceremony at least.

It's just too hard to know, IMO.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby swerb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:43 pm

Dungy was a puss that couldn't get that team over the top. Chucky was like a bolt of lightning there, defense was still great, offense got hot ... and they won it all. You can argue all you want about whose fault it is for what happened after that there, but he came in there and won a SB with that team when Dungy could not. Not like they were as bad as the Browns. Still a regular playoff participant IMO.

Not too many shitty coaches w SB rings.

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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:44 pm

swerb wrote: Chiefs and Dolphins racing to get at those two. While we putz around with Holmgren's buddies puppet nephew who has the same agent as him.


The Browns remain a fascination for my dark passenger.

Way too much stain on the Walrus if he boots SHUR MUR after this season, so Paddy sticks. After we fuck the dog again next year (regardless of how we draft we'll still be around 6-10 if we're lucky) the excitement really starts.

Holmgren either takes off the Depends and pulls on his big boy pants, fires SHUR MUR and changes coaches, OR continues to suckle from the $60 million Lerner teet while standing pat. Then, after another (his 4th, the 3rd for SHUR MUR) non playoff year (2013) Holmgren pulls the plug on the whole enchilada, and returns to Seattle.

So either SHUR MUR gets whacked at the end of next season, or the Browns re-boot January 2014.

'Course, SHUR MUR could always end up like Gary Kubiak - head on the chopping block every year until the team suddenly has so much talent and the division is such a shambles that even a complete lack of coaching skill can't screw it up. But I don't see that happening.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:45 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Triple-S wrote:I like Chuckie, maybe he won't be a Super Bowl coach winning coach, but at least he'll bring some form of competencies to being the Head Coach He'd also understand the tradition, the history, what it means, and the rivalries in the area.


Not directed at you in a negative way SSS , but I've about had it with the talk of 'tradition' and 'history'. You're in your early 20's, right?

What's your sense of tradition and history as it pertains to the Browns? It's losing piled on losing with a move to Baltimore thrown in the middle of more losing. Jon Gruden is roughly my age, maybe a few years older. He grew up with the same shitty 70's Browns I did and his reference is losing, losing, losing, couple good years, losing, move, expansion, losing.

And my sense of history and tradition is a couple good years swallowed up by shit and pre-dated by what I read about the salad days.

Let's say I was 7 when I sat next to the old man and started watching. That would be 1973 or so and that's about right in terms of remembering Bill Nelsen and Milt Morin, et al.

1973 7-5-2 1974 4-10 1975 3-11 1976 9-5 1977 6-8 1978 8-8 1979 9-7
1980 11-5 1981 5-11 1982 4-5 1983 9-7 1984 5-11 1985 8-8 1986 12-4
1987 10-5-1 1988 10-6 1989 9-6-1 1990 3-13 1991 6-10 1992 7-9 1993 7-9
1994 11-5 1995 5-11 1999 2-14 2000 3-13 2001 7-9 2002 9-7 2003 5-11
2004 4-12 2005 10-6 2006 4-12 2007 10-6 2008 4-12 2009 5-11 2010 5-11

My history and tradition is 13 winning seasons out of 35. No Super Bowls, two AFC title games. My history is 237 wins and 303 losses with four ties. My history is a drive, a fumble, Red Right 88 and a collapse in Pittsburgh a few years back.

My history is Willis Adams, Mike Junkin, Gerard Warren, William Green, Greg Allen, Charles White, Don Rogers, Clifford Charlton, Tommy Vardell, Antonio Langham, Craig Powell and Brady Quinn.

It's also Romeo, Bud, Butch, Chris Palmer and Pat Shurmur.

I just think we really need to be careful when we talk about tradition and history because with each passing day that history and tradition is becoming more and more filled with shit. There are a couple generations now that don't have a tie to a winning football team and we're starting another one.

So if that's enticing to Jon Gruden or anyone else, excuse if I question WTF those guys are thinking. History and tradition is bullshit in terms of any of these guys. We'll always have a hope because there are so few of these jobs and you could luck into a good one. I don't know, maybe a guy like Belichik somehow ends up in Cleveland somehow.

Aside from that, though, I don't think I'd be selling the tradition and history angle to anyone. And Jim Brown will be dead soon. So there's that.

Like I said, you know I like ya, but I've just had it with the 'tradition' and 'history' thing.


Hallelujah praise Tebow!

I'll be 40 in 2012. It was 8 years before my birth that the Browns won a Championship.

You not only have to be in your 50's, but your late 50's to know what the term "Cleveland Browns Tradition" means, unless you mean it as a synonym to "Suck".

It's not like the Browns were Super Bowl contenders every year up to The Move. I remember one good year - the Kardiak Kids - between birth and 14. By the time I was old enough to buy cigarettes and vote, they were back to Suck.

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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby swerb » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:47 pm

Or he says F it and coaches the team.

Thing is - I'd rather have Fisher or Cowher coach.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:49 pm

Really Hiko just one good year, we're you in a coma from 86-90, when the Browns were indeed legit SB contenders? Not to mention Bernie sweeping the Steelers his first 3 seasons.

If you were in a coma I apologize, and am glad to hear you're doing well.
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Re: The heresy has started

Unread postby Hikohadon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:50 pm

FUDU wrote:Really Hiko just one good year, we're you in a coma from 86-90, when the Browns were indeed legit SB contenders? Not to mention Bernie sweeping the Steelers his first 3 seasons.

If you were in a coma I apologize, and am glad to hear you're doing well.


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