The Race for the #4 Pick in the Draft

[e0y2e3]

Not going to argue Pup.

I'm just pointing out the end game.

LBJ and the Cavs was possibly the most destined for epic failure relationship in the history of sports.

Once the roster got where it got he was gone, but no one wanted to believe it...

And they couldn't let him go.

They were fucked, the situation was fucked, it was just a clusterfuck of fail involving every party involved since 2003.

The result, more Browns fans.

[pup]

Not to mention, the attempt by the Cavaliers to trade for Bosh, placing 2 of the 3 in Cleveland. Which Bosh turned down. Because LeBron told him to. Because the plan was already in place.

[Kingpin74]

BTW: The Jazz got great value for D-Will, the Nuggets okay value for Melo and the Hornets and Magic are working on getting good value for their players.

The only franchises that fucked up were Toronto and Cleveland.

Shocker.

Toronto, yes.

Cleveland did what they had to do. Fielded the best team in the NBA that season and tried to win a championship. Thinking (based on what he said I believe) that was the best way to keep him. Then he "hurt his elbow" and they flamed out.

I was as harsh on Danny Ferry as just about anyone on these boards for that period of time. Agree 100% he failed to build the right way around that bitch. But that bitch played a role in that, which is something YOU were always pretty adamant about.

You honestly think the Cavs would have been able to trade LeBitch while they were coasting to the #1 seed? They had no choice in that regard.

And ^^^^ is the one and only time you will see me defend the choices of that franchise. Now I must go shower.

Exactly, LeBron was a Hall of Fame asshole and Melo/DWill/Howard/CP3 at least had the courtesy to make their intentions known. But it would be nice if there were better defenses in place for teams that can't realistically trade a guy without causing a riot. Again, nobody would be forcing the player to take the extra money.

[e0y2e3]

To be fair, that was a sign a trade offer. You know, like what Kingpin wants to get rid of.

I'm not decreeing LBJ didn't fuck the franchise entirely at all. I already said, about 10K words ago, it's much more honerable to go the route of CP3 and Howard. It's the right way to do things. LBJ is too much of a pussy to have ever owned up to his intentions. And his intentions were never to stay on a team where MO WILLIAMS was his number 2 and Andy his number 3.

[e0y2e3]

Oh and Melo is an even bigger asshole than any of them. He's the one that literally left for a market with no actual thought about rings.

His fucking wife wanted to go to NYC and be a reality TV star.

So he Boozered Denver.

[Kingpin74]

To be fair, that was a sign a trade offer. You know, like what Kingpin wants to get rid of.

I'm not decreeing LBJ didn't fuck the franchise entirely at all. I already said, about 10K words ago, it's much more honerable to go the route of CP3 and Howard. It's the right way to do things. LBJ is too much of a pussy to have ever owned up to his intentions. And his intentions were never to stay on a team where MO WILLIAMS was his number 2 and Andy his number 3.

Serious extra money only available from incumbent team > Token offseason sign-and-trade compensation

The market is already correcting the compensation issue with extend and trades. Why do the sign and trades still need to be there as leverage for superstars?

[e0y2e3]

They aren't leverage.

You can call their bluff and say no.

I don't understand where you are getting that a team has to agree to S & T someone.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Browns receivers have dropped a league-leading 35 passes. Greg Little (11), Montario Hardesty (6) and last year’s leading receiver, Ben Watson (7) all rank in the top 20

[Kingpin74]

They aren't leverage.

You can call their bluff and say no.

I don't understand where you are getting that a team has to agree to S & T someone.

Because teams are too weak. If crazed/enraged Dan Gilbert took a sign-and-trade after what happened, just about any team will take SOMETHING when push comes to shove, even if it's as crappy as two picks in the 28-30 range. And I think players/agents factor that into their strategies. You follow this closer than I do, have any teams just told a guy to piss off? Maybe Phoenix with Amare? Regardless, I'd just like to see that avenue eliminated.

[e0y2e3]

Whatever, this is far too off of topic for me to really care about.

Gilbert took it because LBJ was leaving regardless, and the S & T rule had no impact in that. You can't name me a single top star that went anywhere because of that rule existing.

You can name me bad GMs that have overpaid with it though *ahem* Rashard.

You really are just so hungup on LBJ it's confusing. He was leaving. Period.

And he didn't leave because of any rules or any system. He left to win a title.

[e0y2e3]

And I do want to thank you for making my point for me Kingpin.

You've now spent more time bitching about a rule that plays little factor in reality than anyone beyond me has spent bitching about The Manning Clan trying to run their teams and league.

[Kingpin74]

And I do want to thank you for making my point for me Kingpin.

You've now spent more time bitching about a rule that plays little factor in reality than anyone beyond me has spent bitching about The Manning Clan trying to run their teams and league.

All I meant was that the NFL system is set up to bring better compensation for the asshole in question. And that's if you have to get rid of him at all, which you technically are never forced to do. NBA teams are still held hostage and I think the extend-and-trade prices will ultimately go down once the power teams can plan more accordingly.

[SoulDawg74]

But quit worrying about us winning games , the only way that happens is if Colt breaks his neck tonight and we trot out the professional QB's on the roster

Just who in the Hell would that be?

SD:

the kid playing third string they won't play , let alone Wallace .

Nobody but the Browns doesn't go to their Bull pen when you go 11 games before you score a first quarter TD or delude themselves into thinking a third round pick has franchise talent , when he can't even complete a sideline out past past the markers to convert third downs.

His arm is so poor , they don't even bother with double moves , because he can't throw it past the defenders ability to recover even if they could sucker them into biting on the play fake .

The NFL average is 17 points a game , we hit that mark twice and missed 10 times .

Thats batting less than 200 and you couldn't break the lineup of the girl scouts let alone the bigs as a batter hitting like that .

When your down three scores late in the game and still throwing short it means your only concerned with padding stats and hiding your QB.

SoulDawg

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Code: Select all

[b][i]the kid playing third string they won't play , let alone Wallace .[/i][/b]

[e0y2e3]

Oh boy and we've officially reached the annual cries for Seneca.

Man I love watching people support this team.

But hey, two guys left and their teams didn't get anything back in the NBA. And hypothetically in the future the value stars are traded for could maybe go down, so WAR NFL.

[Kingpin74]

Oh boy and we've officially reached the annual cries for Seneca.

Man I love watching people support this team.

But hey, two guys left and their teams didn't get anything back in the NBA. And hypothetically in the future the value stars are traded for could maybe go down, so WAR NFL.

You need to try fantasy football or gambling, you might pull a complete 180.

[SoulDawg74]

Oh and Melo is an even bigger asshole than any of them. He's the one that literally left for a market with no actual thought about rings.

His fucking wife wanted to go to NYC and be a reality TV star.

So he Boozered Denver.

Cleveland boozered themselves , they let a kid out of a contract , without safeguards to protect themselves al the while realizing he was worth 5 times what they were offering , they foolishly thought loyalty to them would trump all cash offers .

$65 million and a clubhouse full of jet vapors from his quick departure gave them a clue that their negotiating tactics weren't quite very smart .

The Boozer fiasco was on Cavs management.

SoulDawg

[FUDU]

Lee I think we are at this point of the argument b/c of your comments pages ago that tried to claim NBA players are looking for control of their own personal careers and NFL/Manning are looking to control their entire sport. That was my issue with your arguments here.

Outside of that I thnk we all agree athletes are in general very similar in terms of greed and sacrifice, so are owners to be fair.

Otherwise I think we have all kind of made each other's point at some time in these 5 pages.

[e0y2e3]

Oh and Melo is an even bigger asshole than any of them. He's the one that literally left for a market with no actual thought about rings.

His fucking wife wanted to go to NYC and be a reality TV star.

So he Boozered Denver.

Cleveland boozered themselves , they let a kid out of a contract , without safeguards to protect themselves al the while realizing he was worth 5 times what they were offering , they foolishly thought loyalty to them would trump all cash offers .

$65 million and a clubhouse full of jet vapors from his quick departure gave them a clue that their negotiating tactics weren't quite very smart .

The Boozer fiasco was on Cavs management.

SoulDawg

I agree, I was more so talking about going where your wife wanted you to go and having no balls.

[e0y2e3]

Oh boy and we've officially reached the annual cries for Seneca.

Man I love watching people support this team.

But hey, two guys left and their teams didn't get anything back in the NBA. And hypothetically in the future the value stars are traded for could maybe go down, so WAR NFL.

You need to try fantasy football or gambling, you might pull a complete 180.

I already cashed top record and points in fantasy football.

I feel no different.

[e0y2e3]

Lee I think we are at this point of the argument b/c of your comments pages ago that tried to claim NBA players are looking for control of their own personal careers and NFL/Manning are looking to control their entire sport. That was my issue with your arguments here.

Outside of that I thnk we all agree athletes are in general very similar in terms of greed and sacrifice, so are owners to be fair.

Otherwise I think we have all kind of made each other's point at some time in these 5 pages.

There is a definitive difference in going somewhere to win your first title after 6/7 years of failure and refusing to play mentor to a young QB and refusing to play in San Diego with little to no differentiation between San Diego and New York.

This is inarguable.

[SoulDawg74]

Code: Select all

[b][i]the kid playing third string they won't play , let alone Wallace .[/i][/b]

SD:

Actually we got some dead bodies down at the morgue who could do better , but i figured if I said that you might take me seriously , and want me to trot one out , nevermind the point .

This is all a dream of Holgrens to eclipse Walsh by reincarnating Joe Montana in the third .

and

If it wasn't for this hubris Colt would have been held accountable by all other standards .

Peter King rates his play at D this year .

The Chin called for him to get yanked in the middle of that rat attack .

Livingston put him on notice yesterday in the PD .

The blood in the water is bringing on the sharks fast , soon you Homie and all the other looney tunes who think this imitation spam dogmeat hump is a grade A Franchise talent won't be finding your trip down Dee Nile all that comfortable.


SoulDawg

[SoulDawg74]

Oh and Melo is an even bigger asshole than any of them. He's the one that literally left for a market with no actual thought about rings.

His fucking wife wanted to go to NYC and be a reality TV star.

So he Boozered Denver.

Cleveland boozered themselves , they let a kid out of a contract , without safeguards to protect themselves al the while realizing he was worth 5 times what they were offering , they foolishly thought loyalty to them would trump all cash offers .

$65 million and a clubhouse full of jet vapors from his quick departure gave them a clue that their negotiating tactics weren't quite very smart .

The Boozer fiasco was on Cavs management.

SoulDawg

I agree, I was more so talking about going where your wife wanted you to go and having no balls.

SD:

That explains so much about why you want the big celebrity high society NY wedding.

So funny but so true , think of that QB in any Given Sunday who comes cryin to his wife about the pain and he couldn't take it anymore , when she slapped him upside the head like Brett Farves wife and told him we got two or three more good years to get out of you .

man can have all the money in the world , but if he ain't got his word or the balls to live by it , he ain't shit.


SoulDawg

[peeker643]

Lee I think we are at this point of the argument b/c of your comments pages ago that tried to claim NBA players are looking for control of their own personal careers and NFL/Manning are looking to control their entire sport. That was my issue with your arguments here.

Outside of that I thnk we all agree athletes are in general very similar in terms of greed and sacrifice, so are owners to be fair.

Otherwise I think we have all kind of made each other's point at some time in these 5 pages.

There is a definitive difference in going somewhere to win your first title after 6/7 years of failure and refusing to play mentor to a young QB and refusing to play in San Diego with little to no differentiation between San Diego and New York.

This is inarguable.

Can we please stop this soon? Because while it's simply circular it's also inarguable that the NBA stars have colluded to sign in major markets for a chance to 'win' and that 3/4 of the league has been rendered as moot.

It's also inarguable that Peyton Manning can't go anywhere without the Colts making that decision no matter how much Archie cries and whines.

It's also inarguable that Eli Manning was traded for Philip Rivers and 3 picks that turned out to be Shawne Merriman, Nate Kaeding and Roamn Oben and that Rivers, Kaeding, and Merriman all made Pro Bowls.

Can we move on?

[e0y2e3]

Getting draft picks doesn't equal trading for pro bowlers Peeks.

That was just great execution. People really not to stop pretending like Eli was traded for three Pro-bowlers, he was traded for picks. D-Will was traded for a bigger instant package.

And again, old people see big and small markets, I don't. It's really the only place I can go here.

Fair hate is my only request.

I doubt I'll get it.

[SoulDawg74]

Oh boy and we've officially reached the annual cries for Seneca.

Man I love watching people support this team.

But hey, two guys left and their teams didn't get anything back in the NBA. And hypothetically in the future the value stars are traded for could maybe go down, so WAR NFL.

SD:

really don't want Wallace , just want the example of how poorly Colt is running this offense to emblazoned upon peeps brains .

We heard the blame game in regard to couch , just before Holcomb set the inbred on fire with the same not ready for prime time players .

The Browns are hiding just how poor Colt is by staunchly refusing to play anyone else ,
which is a mistake , because you can only get better thru competition .

They dumbed down the roster and avoided bringing in any perceived threat to Colt and treated him like a franchise pick sans competition in a rigged show .

Now there scared his grade B backups , will expose him for the true hack they wasted a year on.

Thadeus Lewis has an extra year in this system over Colt is bigger and has twice the arm , and was a Shurmur pickup from the lambs right at the wire , but like Greco whose better than Luavo they don't want their pets getting beat out.

Not that Thadeus Lewis or Wallace or any combination of both is the answer

SoulDawg

[peeker643]

Getting draft picks doesn't equal trading for pro bowlers Peeks.

That was just great execution. People really not to stop pretending like Eli was traded for three Pro-bowlers, he was traded for picks. D-Will was traded for a bigger instant package.

And again, old people see big and small markets, I don't. It's really the only place I can go here.

Fair hate is my only request.

I doubt I'll get it.

The same org that turned two of three picks into Pro Bowlers was also on record as having Eli and Rivers rated extremely close. They're also on record as stating they would (and did) draft Eli number one regardless of his desires.

I think you'll get fair hate when superstars are equally distributed across the NBA as they are in the NFL, regardless of market size. Until then there will always be perceptions that the inmates are running the asylum in the NBA and I personally think that based on the last few years it's a fair assessment.

And again, most importantly with your Peyton, Eli, Braylon, KWII examples, the team had the ultimate control and the returns on losing such players is much greater in the NFL (depending on the 'execution' as you noted).

End of day this argument/discussion will simply go in circles depending on which sport you prefer.

But I think we can agree that there are egomaniacal assholes in both sports that will attempt to dictate where they play. I've never debated that fact. In fact, you can look at how Kosar manipulated the system and Elway dictated where he would not play almost 30 years ago.

[e0y2e3]

And I wasted all those words trying to explain that the sport is the difference, not the rules.

It's just so.. so... so... pointless.

All you can see is Big Market and Small Market. It's become such a complex I'm just living in disbelief.

Last word is yours, or Kingpin's on Sign and Trades, or SD's on Seneca Wallace, or Matt on the awful summer in Houston....

I'm just exhausted.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

The Chargers end up with 4 Pro Bowlers and a "Franchise QB"

The Giants get Eli Manning and win a SB....

There's so many points to be made out of that its just not worth the time...

Its akin to Bum the bum Phillips w/5 #1 picks on the OL and The Tyler Rose @ RB but not quite

[Triple-S]

All you can see is Big Market and Small Market. It's become such a complex I'm just living in disbelief.

Have and Have-not really. I don't really see it as big vs. small. BTW, MYoung brought up an awesome point on twitter saying Cleveland, when you think about it IS NOT A SMALL MARKET. It's 11th biggest in the country. Want a small market? go look at some place like Jax or Tulsa

If the Tribe had some psychotic billionaire owner who looked to go out and overpay Pujols, and go Steinbrenner, is anyone here suddenly bitching about being a small market team in a dying region?

And no, I don't fault Dolan as much I suppose. For what he's been able to do he's been able to at least do slightly better than the Browns. (it remains to be seen if Gilbert makes us into a basketball no-mans land, my guess is..yes).

[Fire Marshall Bill]

viewforum.php?f=2

[e0y2e3]

Sorry, I lied, but IF this Tyson Chandler to the Knicks for $14 per year and Billups getting shipped out deal goes through every single good thing I said about the Knicks turn around was wrong. They would be giving up any hopes of signing Paul to play a D'Antonio offense with no PG.

Or they would be trading Melo to NO for Paul and the most poetic sports moment of all time happens.

Now I'm out, but this, this situation right here is gold.

[e0y2e3]

http://www.theclevelandfan.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=2

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BASEBALL NOW ASSHOLE, READ SSS' POST DAMNIT.

/really out now.

[motherscratcher]

So, we're all in agreement, yes?

Fantastic

[FUDU]

Lee I think we are at this point of the argument b/c of your comments pages ago that tried to claim NBA players are looking for control of their own personal careers and NFL/Manning are looking to control their entire sport. That was my issue with your arguments here.

Outside of that I thnk we all agree athletes are in general very similar in terms of greed and sacrifice, so are owners to be fair.

Otherwise I think we have all kind of made each other's point at some time in these 5 pages.

There is a definitive difference in going somewhere to win your first title after 6/7 years of failure and refusing to play mentor to a young QB and refusing to play in San Diego with little to no differentiation between San Diego and New York.

This is inarguable.

Compare apples to apples though.

2012 healthy Peyton Manning with his same offense that he's had for the last few seasons IS better than a young recently Heisman winning Luck, way better, that is inarguable. That's the point. Now of course there is no guarantee a 2012 healthy Peyton Manning even exists, but only HE knows or will know if that is true. So if you're in his shoes, him trying to keep his career going full steam ahead is not douchy, at least not anymore douchier than bailing on your team with no hint of your intentions JUST b/c you are in your 7th season and haven't accomplished what your hero (who you will never be) actually DID accomplish. The real kicker there is the guy's real interest isn't truly basketball, and he has come within words of saying such. LeBron want's to be Andy Gibb, he wants to be our everything.

IMO you are being too emotional in this argument in terms of where your heart is between the NBA & the NFL.

[peeker643]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
More agent Andy Miller on Knicks exposing Billups to amnesty waiver wire: "....unless it's a team he chooses himself. Buyer beware."
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WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Agent Miller on Billups: "He has no intention of being open-minded about any possible situation where a team would claim him off waivers.."
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

[e0y2e3]

This will be the third time Chauncey will be forced to a new team since signing his extension in...

wait for it....

Detroit!

WHERE'S THE OWNER LOYALTY?

[FUDU]

This will be the third time Chauncey will be forced to a new team since signing his extension...and the third time I've come back into this thread after I said I was done

:poke

[e0y2e3]

Just sayin', I wouldn't use a player that showed loyalty, reupped with his home market, then was rewarded with three teams in three years (once this goes down) bitching about getting shipped around the league an example of any argument you have made here.

[FUDU]

Ya Peeker. Honestly I cannot argue with you on that example.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Just sayin', I wouldn't use a player that showed loyalty, reupped with his home market, then was rewarded with three teams in three years (once this goes down) bitching about getting shipped around the league an example of any argument you have made here.

4TH

ADDICT.

[peeker643]

This will be the third time Chauncey will be forced to a new team since signing his extension in...

wait for it....

Detroit!

WHERE'S THE OWNER LOYALTY?

Detroit sent him home to Denver. A touching and magnanimous gesture that pulled at the heartstrings.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Do I hear 5?

[Ziner]

This will be the third time Chauncey will be forced to a new team since signing his extension in...

wait for it....

Detroit!

WHERE'S THE OWNER LOYALTY?

Detroit sent him home to Denver. A touching and magnanimous gesture that pulled at the heartstrings.

Everything I heard and can find Chauncey was happy to play in Denver, no? Then he got traded VERY reluctantly because Melo was being a douche. Kroenke personally apologized to him and his family over the entire ordeal. Without the gun to their head he never gets traded.

And no, egomaniac, I am not on your dick, I simply pointed out how wrong you were after arrogantly and incorrectly correcting Peeker. The comeback of pretending I am on your dick, whatever exactly you think that means, is lame, tired, and frankly pathetic.

[Orenthal]

It's dumbfounding to me and admittedly something I just don't get.

Yet I and most of my friends are in your demo. Age and education for the most part and still we are somewhat, shit mostly geographic centric. I understand the love the game aspect, and basketball would probably be the only sport that could hold my interest absent a Cleveland connection.

It is an interesting jump into the human mind/collective. There is just so much more productive shit to do absent that local connection for me. Course my father was the driver of that Cleveland only mindset when it comes to sports, and most of my friends are from stable homes*, eh its just so layerd, as to become beyond analysis.

*anecdotal that many of my friends whose fathers died early or split tended to be front runners.

[FUDU]

It's dumbfounding to me and admittedly something I just don't get.

Yet I and most of my friends are in your demo. Age and education for the most part and still we are somewhat, shit mostly geographic centric. I understand the love the game aspect, and basketball would probably be the only sport that could hold my interest absent a Cleveland connection.

It is an interesting jump into the human mind/collective. There is just so much more productive shit to do absent that local connection for me. Course my father was the driver of that Cleveland only mindset when it comes to sports, and most of my friends are from stable homes*, eh its just so layerd, as to become beyond analysis.

*anecdotal that many of my friends whose fathers died early or split tended to be front runners.

Interesting b/c most of my friends whose fathers died or split early, myself included, are much more die hard types. I'm serious. It is something I noticed but never really made mention of until you brought it up.

Emotions are an integral and virtually inherent part of sports, so it stands that emotions would tie into being a sports fan as well. I've never understood the need to try to separate them from sports and being a fan. My two cents.

[Orenthal]

Peeks 1:22 and 1:48 are money IMO.

[Orenthal]

It's dumbfounding to me and admittedly something I just don't get.

Yet I and most of my friends are in your demo. Age and education for the most part and still we are somewhat, shit mostly geographic centric. I understand the love the game aspect, and basketball would probably be the only sport that could hold my interest absent a Cleveland connection.

It is an interesting jump into the human mind/collective. There is just so much more productive shit to do absent that local connection for me. Course my father was the driver of that Cleveland only mindset when it comes to sports, and most of my friends are from stable homes*, eh its just so layerd, as to become beyond analysis.

*anecdotal that many of my friends whose fathers died early or split tended to be front runners.

Interesting b/c most of my friends whose fathers died or split early, myself included, are much more die hard types. I'm serious. It is something I noticed but never really made mention of until you brought it up.

Emotions are an integral and virtually inherent part of sports, so it stands that emotions would tie into being a sports fan as well. I've never understood the need to try to separate them from sports and being a fan. My two cents.

Ya quote boxes! It's why trying to understand fandom and loyalty is bound for failure of inconclusiveness. Consice its what Kingpin said, you want to feel your team has a better shot at keep their talent. Make it a tough economic decision, while not making it a plantation .

Peeks gives the substance on the NFL/NBA dynamic, I bow out.

[GreatGoo]

Am I in the wrong thread?

I think it would be very interesting if the browns drafted RG3. The offense would be more exciting that is for sure. Do you guys think RG3 could be successful in AFC North?

[motherscratcher]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/11/robert-griffin-iii-a-better-prospect-than-andrew-luck-in-some-eyes/