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Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

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Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:29 pm

I know Vlad can't play the OF anymore, but what about first? He'd be an upgrade over LaPorta....
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:37 pm

The Indians' firstbasemen will lead the league in putouts next year. No way some 37-year-old who has never played the position will take that spot.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:55 pm

At this point either they trade for a legit 1st baseman or they need to get either Carlos Pena or Derek Lee if they actually want to compete and have a legit upgrade at the position.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:12 pm

Kotchman's a 1B option, but he's also left handed and has inflated value due to hitting .308/.378/.422 last year. He should regress this year.

Career .998 at 1B though in 6132 chances.

Don't want another LH twig if we can help it.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:02 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Kotchman's a 1B option, but he's also left handed and has inflated value due to hitting .308/.378/.422 last year. He should regress this year.

Career .998 at 1B though in 6132 chances.

Don't want another LH twig if we can help it.



Yeah with Kotchman I didnt mention him because I would imagine his price will inflate due to his statistical outlier last year. Too much money for a guy who doesn't have the offensive potential of the other two when there defense is close. I think teh other two represent a much better value.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:40 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:The Indians' firstbasemen will lead the league in putouts next year. No way some 37-year-old who has never played the position will take that spot.


While this is a valid point, it is also true that they'd be better off with a guy that let a dozen or so balls go thru the wickets than have the offensive "production" they had at that position last year.

(And I say this NOT in regard to Guerrero, cause I have no earthly idea if the guy has an interst is first base, let alone the ability - which I doubt)
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:35 am

I would prefere Pena but I think Lee would be the better option. He has a solid glove at first and can hit for better avg then Pena while still proving ok power at the position.

Honestly I think the Indians are not even going to try to get either of these guys and go with Laporta and Santana platoon again next year.

The offseason for the tribe is over, they got Lowe and resigned Sizemore. They are not going to go out and spend anymore money to get a bigger named FA. We all know it but it is nice to dream about it.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Bigfist » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:26 am

Cleveland Matt wrote:I would prefere Pena but I think Lee would be the better option. He has a solid glove at first and can hit for better avg then Pena while still proving ok power at the position.

Honestly I think the Indians are not even going to try to get either of these guys and go with Laporta and Santana platoon again next year.

The offseason for the tribe is over, they got Lowe and resigned Sizemore. They are not going to go out and spend anymore money to get a bigger named FA. We all know it but it is nice to dream about it.


If what you say is correct, then the Jimenez trade will have been for naught. I doubt you are correct, though..I am still expecting moves via trades.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:51 pm


Reds Shopping Yonder Alonso For Pitching
By Mark Polishuk [November 24 at 11:31pm CST]

The Reds are offering Yonder Alonso as trade bait in their search for a closer or a No. 2 starter, reports Yahoo Sports' Tim Brown. Reds GM Walt Jocketty has spoken to several teams --- including the A's, Blue Jays, Indians and Rays --- about Alonso, though we heard earlier this week that the Reds thought Alonso was too much to give up for Oakland closer Andrew Bailey.

Alonso is regarded as Cincinnati's top hitting prospect, if one without a Major League position since Joey Votto is cemented at first base. The 24-year-old has an OPS of .837 in four minor league seasons and hit .330/.398/.545 in 98 plate appearances with the Reds last year.

If the Reds were willing to move him, you would think Alonso would be too much to deal for any closer, not just Bailey. Jocketty has said his club's top priority is finding a starting pitcher this offseason, so while the Jays and Indians have some good young arms, they wouldn't be willing to deal a top-of-the-rotation caliber of starter for which the Reds are looking. The Jays and Tribe also have other options at first base, though Adam Lind, Edwin Encarnacion and Matt LaPorta wouldn't be major obstacles if Toronto or Cleveland had a legitimate shot at Alonso. The A's and Reds might not be a match on Bailey, but Jocketty might deem possibly-available pitchers like Gio Gonzalez or Trevor Cahill worthy of moving Alonso.

The most logical match would appear to be Tampa Bay, who has a big hole at first base, lots of pitching and a need for a controllable young talent like Alonso. The Rays could offer Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann, though the Reds are more likely looking for a pitcher like James Shields. (Obviously David Price and Jeremy Hellickson are staying put.)



Interesting. I would say if they could figure out how to get him, then go for it.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Jumbo » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:23 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:

Reds Shopping Yonder Alonso For Pitching
By Mark Polishuk [November 24 at 11:31pm CST]

The Reds are offering Yonder Alonso as trade bait in their search for a closer or a No. 2 starter, reports Yahoo Sports' Tim Brown. Reds GM Walt Jocketty has spoken to several teams --- including the A's, Blue Jays, Indians and Rays --- about Alonso, though we heard earlier this week that the Reds thought Alonso was too much to give up for Oakland closer Andrew Bailey.

Alonso is regarded as Cincinnati's top hitting prospect, if one without a Major League position since Joey Votto is cemented at first base. The 24-year-old has an OPS of .837 in four minor league seasons and hit .330/.398/.545 in 98 plate appearances with the Reds last year.

If the Reds were willing to move him, you would think Alonso would be too much to deal for any closer, not just Bailey. Jocketty has said his club's top priority is finding a starting pitcher this offseason, so while the Jays and Indians have some good young arms, they wouldn't be willing to deal a top-of-the-rotation caliber of starter for which the Reds are looking. The Jays and Tribe also have other options at first base, though Adam Lind, Edwin Encarnacion and Matt LaPorta wouldn't be major obstacles if Toronto or Cleveland had a legitimate shot at Alonso. The A's and Reds might not be a match on Bailey, but Jocketty might deem possibly-available pitchers like Gio Gonzalez or Trevor Cahill worthy of moving Alonso.

The most logical match would appear to be Tampa Bay, who has a big hole at first base, lots of pitching and a need for a controllable young talent like Alonso. The Rays could offer Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann, though the Reds are more likely looking for a pitcher like James Shields. (Obviously David Price and Jeremy Hellickson are staying put.)



Interesting. I would say if they could figure out how to get him, then go for it.


I didn't know much about Alonso, so I looked him up. Big problem: he's a left handed hitter with (so far) a massive platoon split. He'd fit in well somewhere, but I don't think that somewhere is Cleveland.

Guerrero's an interesting idea, if they're looking to take a chance on somebody and not have to trade anybody away.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:42 pm

Yonder may be left handed but he is a legit impact starting 1st base blue chip prospect, that to me trumps the fact that he is left handed and that we are lefty heavy.

if they can actually get him, then they need to go after him.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:53 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Yonder may be left handed but he is a legit impact starting 1st base blue chip prospect, that to me trumps the fact that he is left handed and that we are lefty heavy.

if they can actually get him, then they need to go after him.


AGREE. He will be entrenched as a star wherever he ends up, after Votto up and leaves Cincinnati.

So let it be written. So let it be done.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:54 pm

nt
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:29 pm

WTH, you guys already gave up on Matt LaPorta? ::doh::
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:41 pm

Laporta was a bigger hitting prospect with better offensive numbers in the minor leagues.

Just sayin'....
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:03 pm

I think Guerrero would fit in. Who doesn't want a guy with Dredlocks who can golf a shot over the fences
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:21 pm

The Indians need to stop messing around with Laporta and just let him play. But now the Indians don't have the luxury to ride out the slumps and growing pains. I think the Indians really did not do a good job with his development in a every day player.

Just for the record I would trade Perez in a second for Alonso. After that I honestly believe there are teams out there that would still want Laporta and then trade him for a RP or maybe the A's would take him for Bailey?
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:36 pm

Couple things:

No one here would know Yonder Alonso if he walked in your front door. The point being that given the Indians/Ubaldo window you're not feeling good about giving any prospect his cup of coffee and seeing what you have, much less one with less bona fides than Laporta had.

They need proven offensive upgrades, not if comes.

You need a guy that can rake and you live with his defensive issues or you need a guy that can pick it and hope he's Jack Hannahan defensively, taking what you get offensively. Shit, they may have to live with the actual Hannahan there.

And understand you're not getting shit for Laporta. When he came up not only did he have offensive production that said he would hit here but he could also serviceably play OF. Since his hip injury, he can't play OF and his swing has regressed to the point where you need to replace him for, if you believe this thread, a guy who wasn't as productive as Laporta was in the minor leagues.

No one wants a guy who will be 27 with an effed up hit whose limited to playing a mediocre 1B while waving at anything that doesn't split the middle of the plate at the belt. The Indians don't want him and neither do 30 other teams.

Carry on. :cheers:
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:54 pm

I think there are teams out there that will still be willing to take a chance on Laporta. 27 is not that old to still being able to figure it out. I agree the hip injury might be hard to look past but he does show potential once or twice out of every 100 ABs. Hell how many teams was Andy Marte supposed to be the future at 3B.


Chances are we are stuck with Laporta in a platoon at 1B with Santana. The only other way we get a 1B is through a trade.

We will resign Kosuke Fukudome as our 4th OF and that will be our offseason. Besides Lowe we will go into the season with the same team pretty much. Does anyone really think Dolan is going to spend anymore money then he already has. And we really don't have much to offer down on the farm that would get us an impact player.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:20 pm

peeker643 wrote:Couple things:

No one here would know Yonder Alonso if he walked in your front door.


I would ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:29 pm

peeker643 wrote:No one here would know Yonder Alonso if he walked in your front door. The point being that given the Indians/Ubaldo window you're not feeling good about giving any prospect his cup of coffee and seeing what you have, much less one with less bona fides than Laporta had.


The only thing Laporta has to do with them being in the market for Alonso is that Laporta isn't the answer and they need one.

I am not a prospect guy- it's a big reason I come here and read the writers and the forum guys. Bu tI live in Cin and I know about Alonso. Saw him hit .330 in 100ab last yr. In 2010, he was a top-30 MLB prospect and I'd guess he's higher now. In my mind, he's got the bona fides.

I'd be really excited if they traded a sliver of their pitching for him.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:33 pm

peeker643 wrote:Couple things:

The point being that given the Indians/Ubaldo window you're not feeling good about giving any prospect his cup of coffee and seeing what you have, much less one with less bona fides than Laporta had.

:



I would be willing to gamble on another impact 1st base prospect if it meant having that position filled for the next 6-7 years rather than having to continuously look for stop gaps or have a stop gap like a Kothcman.

And yes I know its the same situation with Laporta in hoping Yonder develops. (knowing that its more likely that he doesn't)

But I would rather try to fix the problem long term than short term if it can be helped. Plus if you get lucky and hit on him, Chizzy, and Kip, then you have 3/4 of your infield under team control TOGETHER for at least 5-7 years. Plus you have Santanna within the same time frame.

I get that they closed their window but they also need to keep a bit of perspective for the future.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:37 pm

googleeph2 wrote:
peeker643 wrote:No one here would know Yonder Alonso if he walked in your front door. The point being that given the Indians/Ubaldo window you're not feeling good about giving any prospect his cup of coffee and seeing what you have, much less one with less bona fides than Laporta had.


The only thing Laporta has to do with them being in the market for Alonso is that Laporta isn't the answer and they need one.

I am not a prospect guy- it's a big reason I come here and read the writers and the forum guys. Bu tI live in Cin and I know about Alonso. Saw him hit .330 in 100ab last yr. In 2010, he was a top-30 MLB prospect and I'd guess he's higher now. In my mind, he's got the bona fides.

I'd be really excited if they traded a sliver of their pitching for him.


Fair enough. I prefer a known, MLB commodity that can either pick it up with the very best of them or who has already proven he can hit major league pitching. Last year or the year before? I'd take as many talented kids as I could acquire. And I probably will again in two years.

But for the next two seasons, I need to know that what I'm putting out there has already established himself on one side of the ball or the other, preferably both.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:41 pm

darn it, nt


except I meant to edit that I did look up the average and the ABs- but he does pass the eye test. If the Indians had the Reds' situation (with Alonso blocked and Votto not signing an extension), they might have traded Votto.

And Peeker, I guess that I am surprised the known-entity-hitter you prefer would actually be available. I'd still go for that.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:46 pm

Their best team, ILO, is with Marson catching and Santana at first (waffle iron and all). This, however, exasperates the Grady/Hafner problem. That is, if ya got Hanahan and Marson bogging down the line-up, you trade some offense for defense - fine. (Especially when defense at the catching position is critical)

But if ya got that line-up paired with Hafner/Sizemore, Christ, you run a real good chance of giving terrible hitters over a thousand at bats again, cause Haner and Sizemore miss about every other GD game.

I know I'm being repetitive, but if you look at this team the last several years, one of the easiest - and realistic ways to improve the team is replacing awful at bats with even average ones.

You play many games with Marson, Hanahan, Carrera, LaPorta and Fuko in the same line-up, you aren't winning jack-shit.

Good pitching is hard to aquire in this market. A big time offensive player is tough to aquire in this market. Getting someone out on the field besides Eziquiel Carrerra IN ANY MARKET, should be a pretty simple task.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:59 pm

leadpipe wrote:Their best team, ILO, is with Marson catching and Santana at first (waffle iron and all). This, however, exasperates the Grady/Hafner problem. That is, if ya got Hanahan and Marson bogging down the line-up, you trade some offense for defense - fine. (Especially when defense at the catching position is critical)

But if ya got that line-up paired with Hafner/Sizemore, Christ, you run a real good chance of giving terrible hitters over a thousand at bats again, cause Haner and Sizemore miss about every other GD game.

I know I'm being repetitive, but if you look at this team the last several years, one of the easiest - and realistic ways to improve the team is replacing awful at bats with even average ones.

You play many games with Marson, Hanahan, Carrera, LaPorta and Fuko in the same line-up, you aren't winning jack-shit.

Good pitching is hard to aquire in this market. A big time offensive player is tough to aquire in this market. Getting someone out on the field besides Eziquiel Carrerra IN ANY MARKET, should be a pretty simple task.


Point taken on avg hitters making a difference, and being easy to get.

Are you advocating this over a bold move such as trading for a good bat (or one you are gambling will be good)?
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:03 am

googleeph2 wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Their best team, ILO, is with Marson catching and Santana at first (waffle iron and all). This, however, exasperates the Grady/Hafner problem. That is, if ya got Hanahan and Marson bogging down the line-up, you trade some offense for defense - fine. (Especially when defense at the catching position is critical)

But if ya got that line-up paired with Hafner/Sizemore, Christ, you run a real good chance of giving terrible hitters over a thousand at bats again, cause Haner and Sizemore miss about every other GD game.

I know I'm being repetitive, but if you look at this team the last several years, one of the easiest - and realistic ways to improve the team is replacing awful at bats with even average ones.

You play many games with Marson, Hanahan, Carrera, LaPorta and Fuko in the same line-up, you aren't winning jack-shit.

Good pitching is hard to aquire in this market. A big time offensive player is tough to aquire in this market. Getting someone out on the field besides Eziquiel Carrerra IN ANY MARKET, should be a pretty simple task.


Point taken on avg hitters making a difference, and being easy to get.

Are you advocating this over a bold move such as trading for a good bat (or one you are gambling will be good)?



I'm not advocating it over a good bat, but I don't claim to know what the good bats available are going to cost in cash or trade, and if they are feasible/smart for the Tribe to do.

I am advocating, that if you're going to pencil in Sizemore and Hafner as starters, you'd better have a better player than Ezikiel Carrera or Trevor Crowe on the bench - cause those guys are likely to catch far more than the couple hundred at bats maximum, you'd like to have.

Again, exasperating this fact is that the line-up may already contain Lou Marson and Jack Hanahan a pretty good amount of the time.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:09 am

The Blue Jays would listen to offers on 24-year-old first baseman David Cooper, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com. Cooper, the Blue Jays' first round draft pick in 2008, debuted with the team in 2011 and posted a .678 OPS in 81 plate appearances. He won the Pacific Coast League batting title with a .364/.439/.535 line this past season, adding nine home runs and 51 doubles.



from MLBtraderumors.


There has been a lot on this kid the last couple of days, maybe somebody to look into.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:18 am

I think we're waiting to see where Fielder and Albert land. Then we trade for the surplus 1B. Marlins kid Sanchez looks good, but he hit .212 after the break (he was an all-star). But think of all the great "Dirty Sanchez" posts we'd have. (mooning)
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:41 pm

I agree with bookelly. We are waiting to see what the rest of the 1st base market looks like after the big names are gone. The kid from Toronto seems intruiging thoug.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:45 pm

No taking chances on a 1B. He's another left handed hitter too. All of the Jays prospects have inflated AAA numbers because they play in a really good hitter's park.

Proven 1B or deal with LaPorta/Santana. Now isn't the time to be dicking around. Plus, we don't have anything worth trading to Toronto outside of a bullpen guy and we need all of those because of the year-to-year bullpen volatility.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:14 pm

skatingtripods wrote:No taking chances on a 1B. He's another left handed hitter too. All of the Jays prospects have inflated AAA numbers because they play in a really good hitter's park.

Proven 1B or deal with LaPorta/Santana. Now isn't the time to be dicking around. Plus, we don't have anything worth trading to Toronto outside of a bullpen guy and we need all of those because of the year-to-year bullpen volatility.



Yeah the only problem I saw was the left handedness. I did read a piece that said his number were not that inflated due to his track record. I will have to find it.

I dont agree with teh bullpen guy thing though. I would flip raffy perez, chris perez, and or joe smith in a heartbeat for legit big league hitters
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:02 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:I dont agree with teh bullpen guy thing though. I would flip raffy perez, chris perez, and or joe smith in a heartbeat for legit big league hitters


Creating one hole to plug another doesn't help.

Let's say we trade Chris Perez. Pestano closes. What if Joe Smith gets hurt? Who's your RHP in the pen? Josh Judy? Zach Putnam? Frank Herrmann?

Let's say we trade Raffy Perez. Who's your second lefty? Nick Hagadone?

The bullpen's a strength. The best play is to keep it that way.

Define legit big league hitter to me. And also tell me which legit big league hitter we can get for bullpen guys?

You won't get back the value of what Pestano/Perez x2/Smith are worth to us. At least I don't think.

Especially when you can throw 8M at Derrek Lee/Carlos Pena and probably get one of them without losing a valuable asset.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby bookelly » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:06 pm

If we trade for a young under-club-control 1B guy we won't have to pay him that much yet. Use the 6 mil they have left to shore up the pen with one of the dozen or so closers still out there on the market.

i.e. - Trade C. Perez for Sanchez (or whomever), then sign one of Ryan Madson, Heath Bell, Francisco Rodriguez, Francisco Cordero, Frank Francisco, Jonathan Broxton, Brad Lidge, Matt Capps, Octavio Dotel, Jon Rauch, David Aardsma, Takashi Saito or LaTroy Hawkins. Nearly all of whom have closed (last two are set-up guys.)

/btw - I got 6 mil because Antonelli says they have 3mil left. Add the 3mil we'd save by trading C. Perez and I get 6mil.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby rigs » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:02 pm

when did antonetti say we only had 3 million left?
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:42 pm

rigs wrote:when did antonetti say we only had 3 million left?


I saw it in the PD...I think it was a Hoynse quote. I find that number very low too. I wouldn't be surprised if we have much more available and this was mis-information by the FO to the agents.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:52 pm

I guess I am OK w/trading a bullpen piece for a 1B for precisely the reason some are not ok- because of their volatility. Since a lot of those guys flame out.

I get the sentiment that they need to keep our strengths as strengths. But they need to score some runs this season.

How effective was C Perez in June, when he was unable to be used much after Hafner went down?
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:23 pm

I think with Perez it comes down to this: Were his low K rate and frequent Borowski-like tendencies this past season an aberration or a trend? And ultimately, it's on the front office to determine which is the case with him. He's certainly their best bargaining chip and there seems to be good depth behind him. Problem is, the other teams see the same peripherals we did, so it's unlikely they'll get top dollar in return for him. A useful RH bat, a la Sanchez or Heisey? Probably. Maybe a bit more if it's part of a larger package. And that's fine ... if what we saw last season is what he is. But if it's something else -- I don't know, maybe a dead-arm situation like Verlander (not to compare the 2 but you get the idea) went through a couple years ago, then they'd be selling low. If they hang on to him, I want it to be because they have good reason to believe that. Basically, it's up to them to know something about him that we don't.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby ChoccoIndians » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:51 pm

Instead of getting Guerrero, play Hafner at first base and make Sizemore designated hitter ;-) ;) :wink:

Personally I would stick with La Porta.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:17 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Creating one hole to plug another doesn't help.

Let's say we trade Chris Perez. Pestano closes. What if Joe Smith gets hurt? Who's your RHP in the pen? Josh Judy? Zach Putnam? Frank Herrmann?

Let's say we trade Raffy Perez. Who's your second lefty? Nick Hagadone?

The bullpen's a strength. The best play is to keep it that way.

Define legit big league hitter to me. And also tell me which legit big league hitter we can get for bullpen guys?

You won't get back the value of what Pestano/Perez x2/Smith are worth to us. At least I don't think.

Especially when you can throw 8M at Derrek Lee/Carlos Pena and probably get one of them without losing a valuable asset.


1. I dont think its creating one hole to fill another, only because that is where our depth is at. Plus it would be easier and cheaper to find a bullpen option and hit on one on the open market than it would be to find a 1 baseman that could become impactful.

2. You can't be afraid of injuries or let fear dictate your plan, yes you need to plan and be prepared, but I'm not going to be afraid to trade Chris Perez or anybody in the pen for fear of injury. Personally I would be more worried about Pestano imploding than Smith getting hurt. However the backup righty option would be whoever steps up and shows the most. It wont be Herman IMO maybe Putnam probably Lee, it will be whoever steps up, but if trading Perez means getting a high quality player or prospect and then letting a bunch of our prospects battle it out for 1 spot or signing a veteran then that is okay to me.

3. Yes I would make Hagadone our 2nd lefty if Raffy gets traded.

4. I disagree about keeping it that way because bullpens are always such fluid and volatile situations and its not like any of out guys have CONSISTENT dominant track records that can really give us hope that we can rely on them year after year. Plus outside of closers, relievers are always some of the cheapest and easiest commodities to acquire.

5. Legit hitter was just a figure of speech. Quality or 1 with lots of potential was probably a better choice of words. I dont know who they could get for Chris Perez, but all it takes is one GM to overpay or really value a certain player that creates a deal that nobody saw coming. I mean Wilson Ramos was traded for Mat Capps ;-) ;) :wink: so who knows.

6. I disgaree with that. I believe you could get the value back if you got the right player or if you could shed salary which allowed you to go fill another hole and allow your organizational depth to fill the spot you created by trading perez, smith.

I do see your point here however because I don't think anybody would really give up anything of value straight up for either Smith or Raffy Perez that would be worth the risk of trading them. If one of those guys got traded it would as stated above it would need to be to shed salary and be hand and hand with another move. I do think they could find a taker for Perez because all you need is one GM to like him, but you would probably have to Package Chris Perez with either Raffy or Smith, or maybe a prospect like Putnam in order to get anything of real value.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:03 am

The Indians are among the teams interest in free agent Casey Blake.
Blake has experience at both corner infield and outfield and would provide right-handed depth for an Indians team that's looking for insurance behind Grady Sizemore and Matt LaPorta. The 38-year-old is coming off a season that saw him hit .252/.342/.371 with four homers and a .713 OPS, but will likely only require a one-year deal this offseason.

When are we going to stop beinging back these old Indian players that are on there last leg. Sure it would be nice to have Blake as a bench player from time to time. But if the Indians think he is going to be the answer at 1B for this season they are going to be screwed.

I am sick of stop gap player, go out and do something for an impact bat like they did for a impact pitcher
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:11 am

Blake is an upgrade over LaPorta offensively and defensively if his neck has healed and he's healthy.

That's all I'm saying about that. And he's a proven major league contributor and not another prospect with the same resume LaPorta (and Marte and....) had.

If ya think the Tribe is gonna use the next two years to audition young hopefuls when their clock is ticking I think you're going to be disappointed.

Get better. If better means younger that's cool, but you better get better.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:26 am

peeker643 wrote:Blake is an upgrade over LaPorta offensively and defensively if his neck has healed and he's healthy.

That's all I'm saying about that. And he's a proven major league contributor and not another prospect with the same resume LaPorta (and Marte and....) had.

If ya think the Tribe is gonna use the next two years to audition young hopefuls when their clock is ticking I think you're going to be disappointed.

Get better. If better means younger that's cool, but you better get better.


Keith Law just published his list of the top 50 major league players under the age of 25.

There wasn't an Injun in sight.

So, if you wanna win in the near future, best to get some major league players here.

As mentioned upthread, getting rid of the absolute joke at bats they are handing out would be a fine start.

Rather have Blake taking a portion of those at bats instead of wishing they are gonna sign a big name or acting as the "next big prospect" to actually conribute is right around the corner.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:10 pm

I would love Derrek Lee but I'd expect him to accept arbitration with the Pirates as I would bet he won't get as much on the open market.

We're being linked with Casey Blake at the moment :/
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:39 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:I would love Derrek Lee but I'd expect him to accept arbitration with the Pirates as I would bet he won't get as much on the open market.


At this stage in his career, if a team with a shot at the playoffs comes knocking, he won't stay with the lowly Pirates.

Not saying that team is us, but I think he'd rather play for a winner.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby paulcousineau » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:16 pm

skatingtripods wrote:At this stage in his career, if a team with a shot at the playoffs comes knocking, he won't stay with the lowly Pirates.

Not saying that team is us, but I think he'd rather play for a winner.

The same Derrek Lee that signed a one-year deal with the Orioles last off-season?
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:25 pm

paulcousineau wrote:The same Derrek Lee that signed a one-year deal with the Orioles last off-season?


Good point.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:05 pm

leadpipe wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Blake is an upgrade over LaPorta offensively and defensively if his neck has healed and he's healthy.

That's all I'm saying about that. And he's a proven major league contributor and not another prospect with the same resume LaPorta (and Marte and....) had.

If ya think the Tribe is gonna use the next two years to audition young hopefuls when their clock is ticking I think you're going to be disappointed.

Get better. If better means younger that's cool, but you better get better.


Keith Law just published his list of the top 50 major league players under the age of 25.

There wasn't an Injun in sight.

So, if you wanna win in the near future, best to get some major league players here.

As mentioned upthread, getting rid of the absolute joke at bats they are handing out would be a fine start.

Rather have Blake taking a portion of those at bats instead of wishing they are gonna sign a big name or acting as the "next big prospect" to actually conribute is right around the corner.


Santana, Masterson, Asdrubal all close to the cutoff but didn't quite make it, otherwise I think all 3 would have been on it. Interestingly, he listed Kipnis as "just missed" (which I expected) but also had Michael Brantley, which I didn't expect. Chiz should still be at least a league-average hitter next year. I still think they're a pretty young team overall, despite not having anyone on the list.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby TonyIPI » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:15 pm

peeker643 wrote:Blake is an upgrade over LaPorta offensively and defensively if his neck has healed and he's healthy.

That's all I'm saying about that. And he's a proven major league contributor and not another prospect with the same resume LaPorta (and Marte and....) had.

If ya think the Tribe is gonna use the next two years to audition young hopefuls when their clock is ticking I think you're going to be disappointed.

Get better. If better means younger that's cool, but you better get better.


100% concur.

As much as I like Yonder Alonso, it would not make a lot of sense to add yet another question mark to a lineup already full of them. Alonso is a great prospect, but has yet to prove himself....and from everything I have heard they want to add a player or two with more proven track records. Now, that may mean a Mark DeRosa on a minor league deal....and a Casey Blake on a small major league deal....and still another more proven bat....who knows. More clarity to all of that should be known by the end of this week.

This team is not in prospect adding mode. Alonso would have made sense at the start of last season....but right now it is going to be a hard sell if they fix first base and picking up a highly valued prospect. Whether it is the right move long term or not.
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Re: Vlad Guerrero for 1B?

Unread postby TonyIPI » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:17 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Interestingly, he listed Kipnis as "just missed" (which I expected) but also had Michael Brantley, which I didn't expect. Chiz should still be at least a league-average hitter next year. I still think they're a pretty young team overall, despite not having anyone on the list.


Brantley is a guy that a lot of teams like. I have talked to reps from over a dozen teams in the past year and he is always one of the top three-four guys mentioned. They feel he won't be a star, but that he will have a good, long career.
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