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Cleveland Cavaliers & The NBA

They're Back!

Talk Cavs hoops and other items from the NBA here.

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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Triple-S » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:22 pm

I literally ran into two classmates today, that not only believed the Cavs would get the 8 spot in the playoffs, but also didn't need to lose out to get a top lottery pick.

Jesus..and I thought I was NBA-illiterate.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:25 pm

Sorry, I wasn't responding to you, was to bac and his entirely false NFL fans don't root against wins argument.

And yeah, the baseball playoffs are a huge outlier that no one understands or watches at this point. Damn good playoffs every year though.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby bac5665 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:40 pm

Hey, fair enough, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Maybe it's just that I don't want to root against my team and therefore watching the NBA means very little to me for the foreseeable future. Maybe I'd feel the same way in the NFL if I were a Colts fan. I don't know. But I don't think I'm wrong to dislike a system where I should root against my team.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:42 pm

Honestly, you are hitting on a fundamental issue with being a sports fan.

In the NBA you notice more because you need one of those top five guys to win a title, but the NFL is the same in needing a top five QB now.

You probably feel that way about it being an NBA thing because you are more well versed in it than the average Joe. Go to Cleveland.com or tOBR and check out how many people are bitching about needing to lose games re: The Browns right now.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:45 pm

And, FWIW: it isn't the system that makes you root for a top pick, it is the sport. BIG difference.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby bac5665 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:55 pm

e0, I think you're spot on about the issue.

And, for the record, Basketball is easily my least favorite of the big 4 sports. But I do want to support my Cavs. I just don't know how to do that and root against them.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:28 am

With the moves the Cavs have made so far since the draft I think they should have no problem being the worst team in the league. I don't even know if I want a high pick in any draft if this is how it is going to end up.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby JJN » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:45 am

bac5665 wrote:And, for the record, Basketball is easily my least favorite of the big 4 sports. But I do want to support my Cavs. I just don't know how to do that and root against them.


Root for them to be exciting but lose every game. Root for Kyrie to win ROY and root for Tristan to make an All-NBA defensive team. And for the Cavs to lose every, single game.

For folks looking at available swingmen, there are two I would really like the cavs to make a run at:
1.Reggie Williams, restricted free agent, Warriors. Athletic scorer. Not really going to set himself up a ton, but he can shoot very efficiently. I would expect him to shoot something like 47/40/78%. He's a bit of a liability on defense, but he is still young. He could start now and become a great 6th man a la Jason Terry should the Cavs get good some years down the road.
2. Marcus Thorton, restricted free agent, Kings. Much better at setting himself up to score than Williams is, but not as efficient. Needs the ball in his hands more. Will probably command a higher price than Williams on the market as he played far more minutes last year, and came on really strong late in the year after being traded to the Kings (21pts, 5rebs, 3.5 ast).

Bring on the ping pong balls, trading just about everyone, and hopefully Drummond and/or Davis.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:32 am

I hate to throw cold water on the party, but there's actually a chance the Cavs might not totally suck this year.

After losing 26 consecutive games last year the Cavs finished out the season by going 11-18. I checked out the starting lineups for a couple of those games at random. For games 73 and 79 the starting lineup was -

Hickson
Davis
Parker
Hollins
Gee

Varajao and Jamison were injured.

So with that starting lineup the Cavs had a winning percentage of .379, which if maintained over the entire season, would have been the 8th worst record in the NBA. That was over 29 games, more than a third of the season.

If the Cavs were to come back this year with the same roster, we could expect them to win more games than seven other teams. There are some really crappy teams in this league.

However, without making any moves between now and the start of the season, they've added Varajao, Jamison, Kyrie Irving, Thompson, and Cresspi. They lost JJ Hickson and Parker. They still have Davis, Boobie, Eyenga, Gee, Samuels, Hollins, Erden, Harangody and Sessions, although a couple of those guys will have to be cut. I don't know - think this year's team might be improved over the group that went 11-18?

I understand that an NBA superstar has more value than in other sports because there are only five players on the court at a time and you can't prevent the superstar from getting the ball on every possession. Albert Pujols only gets to bat once every nine times. Football has 11 guys on the field. But in basketball one player can take over a game, like LeBron did when he single-handedly destroyed the Pistons in that playoff game where he scored something like 36 consecutive points.

So it's no wonder NBA fans are more obsessed with tanking for a top lottery pick, especially since the true franchise players like Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic, Bird, etc never get past the top three picks. But I can't see the Cavs being the worst team in the league this year, or even close, unless they amnesty Davis and trade Varajao and Jamison for future draft picks.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:07 am

Damn, the lockout ends and this forum maintains being unreadable.

At least it is consistent.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:06 pm

JJ from what I have read (Sam Amick former Kings beat writer) the Kings will mostl likely keep Thorton. They had to make that move last year to hit the 75% cap floor, and the floor is now 85%, and they have quite a few FA's. They are also young with potential and may be a buyer.

My move is waiting for Wilson Chandler come March. He was among those who signed in China, and they did not have out clauses in their contracts. That allows us to not improve the team, lose games, and still plug a hole for 2012-13.

Also frees up our draft for a slow lumbering center.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:18 pm

At least OJ CAN STEAL MY WILSON CHANDLER HYPING!#%!%!!

I've been a proponent of Reggie Williams for over a year too.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:53 pm

You don't need to rewrite history to make me look bad...

I called Chandler before you revealed your mystery FA's before the lockout. In some other forum... Think I had like 3 ot of the 4...
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby JJN » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:02 pm

I just don't know how you justify keeping Thorton if you are the Kings, unless they try to sign-and-trade him. While Jimmer, Tyreke, and Thorton can all handle the ball, they are all 2 guards, and if there is any team in the NBA that really needs a point guard to bring all the pieces together, its the Kings. I have a feeling you are probably right that they will try to retain him, but I wonder how much they can afford to pay him and not cripple themselves when it comes time to extend Reke, Cousins, and JJ (should they want to) while adding the PG and SF they are lacking.

I would be fine with grabbing Chandler depending on where we are looking at drafting. As it stands now, the higher picks are primarily bigmen while the mid to late lotto is more swingman oriented. Assuming we only have one pick, we shouldn't end up much lower than the #5 pick which would leave us looking at something like: Perry Jones, Terrence Jones, Robinson, Henson, Quincy Miller. I was a proponent of taking Terrence Jones last year, and continue to be, but I really want Quincy Miller if we can't get Drummond or Davis. He has a game that reminds me a bit of Durant.

I also (despite it possibly leading e0 to a fit) would like to at least have a look at Aaron Gray and Spencer Hawes. I wouldn't overpay for either, but both are young, semi-skilled bigmen who at the least could prove to be capable backups.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:07 pm

Man, a front court rotation of Aaron Gray, Hollins, Andy and TT would inspire fear throughout the league.

And The Kings apparently are back to Reke being the point, as demonstrated by dumping Udoh.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:09 pm

At least Spencer Hawes would be quotable.

He's a complete stiff that'll be out of the league within two years, but he is quotable.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:13 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I hate to throw cold water on the party, but there's actually a chance the Cavs might not totally suck this year.

After losing 26 consecutive games last year the Cavs finished out the season by going 11-18. I checked out the starting lineups for a couple of those games at random. For games 73 and 79 the starting lineup was -

Hickson
Davis
Parker
Hollins
Gee

Varajao and Jamison were injured.

So with that starting lineup the Cavs had a winning percentage of .379, which if maintained over the entire season, would have been the 8th worst record in the NBA. That was over 29 games, more than a third of the season.

If the Cavs were to come back this year with the same roster, we could expect them to win more games than seven other teams. There are some really crappy teams in this league.

However, without making any moves between now and the start of the season, they've added Varajao, Jamison, Kyrie Irving, Thompson, and Cresspi. They lost JJ Hickson and Parker. They still have Davis, Boobie, Eyenga, Gee, Samuels, Hollins, Erden, Harangody and Sessions, although a couple of those guys will have to be cut. I don't know - think this year's team might be improved over the group that went 11-18?

I understand that an NBA superstar has more value than in other sports because there are only five players on the court at a time and you can't prevent the superstar from getting the ball on every possession. Albert Pujols only gets to bat once every nine times. Football has 11 guys on the field. But in basketball one player can take over a game, like LeBron did when he single-handedly destroyed the Pistons in that playoff game where he scored something like 36 consecutive points.

So it's no wonder NBA fans are more obsessed with tanking for a top lottery pick, especially since the true franchise players like Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic, Bird, etc never get past the top three picks. But I can't see the Cavs being the worst team in the league this year, or even close, unless they amnesty Davis and trade Varajao and Jamison for future draft picks.


Do you have a device that calculates the percentage of NBA players that give a shit the last 20 games of the season?

And it would also behoove you to know the over/under for how many games Baron Davis plays this season, and the over/under on how many games he plays that he gives a rats ass about.

Again, if you fell for Baron Davis' act in LA, fine. But if he was gonna be a lazy ass in his home, where he has other vested interests, you'd be a moron to think he's gonna lay it on the line for a bad team - in Cleveland, Ohio.

They are gonna blow. No big deal. Just the way it is. Probably won't set the NBA record for consecutive losses, that I'll give you.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:14 pm

Man, watching Aaron Gray and TT try and score together would be awesome though.

I'm actually warming up to this idea JJN. It would take them from just unwatchable to comicly unwatchable.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:40 pm

Chris Paul wants a trade to the New York Knicks?

Fuck him. You pay what you owe, bitch. No more asshole ego super teams.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby noles1 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:59 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Chris Paul wants a trade to the New York Knicks?

Fuck him. You pay what you owe, bitch. No more asshole ego super teams.



Agree but you are going to really hate what happens with Dwight and Deron to go along with CP3.

I hate it with a passion just as much but it's what they did not fix with the new agreement. It will be corrected more in the years ahead but not over the next 2 seasons.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby JJN » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:40 am

I'm actually warming up to this idea JJN. It would take them from just unwatchable to comicly unwatchable.


This should be a goal. They should be grab short contracts that provide entertainment, intentional or not.

In all seriousness though, Gray and Hawes are both bench guys at best, but they could be used to help teach Irving how to pass into the post, because unless Scott likes the idea of TT going down there and missing 52% of his free throws when he gets fouled, we have nothing down there.

I also like having fat, white bigmen. I can't explain it, but I do. And our current FWB (Harangody) is way fucking worse than Hawes or Gray.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:09 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote: No more asshole ego super teams.


Sheeeit. Nothing changed except dollars, CDT.

Guys will still force deals, guys will still leave Cleveland, guys will still avoid Cleveland unless they're drafted here and the same six teams will also have a shot.

It just means Dan Gilbert and those not in the six cities get more fucking cake on their plate while their franchises remain the red headed step children.

It was always about money and NEVER about an equal playing field.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:45 am

COMPETITIVE BALANCE IN A GAME WHERE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE IS WHAT THIS WAS ALL ABOUT PEEKS, STOP LYING TO THE MASSES
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:30 am

leadpipe wrote:Do you have a device that calculates the percentage of NBA players that give a shit the last 20 games of the season?

I take it that you're implying the only reason the Cavs won some games at the end of the season was because they were playing to win and their opponents didn't give a shit? Is Scott a master motivator or something? After losing 26 in a row you'd think it would be the Cavs that would roll over and play out the string.

And it would also behoove you to know the over/under for how many games Baron Davis plays this season, and the over/under on how many games he plays that he gives a rats ass about.

Yeah, it would behoove me. It sounds like you're giving Davis some of the credit for those wins last year, and coincidentally, the Cavs improved considerably after he arrived.

I'm assuming Irving's presence, and to a lesser degree, Sessions if he isn't moved, will enable the Cavs to ration Scott's minutes so he'll play in most of the games, just like he did last year. As for him not giving a rat's ass, if he ever was going to mail it in he would have done that at the end of last season after arriving in freezing Cleveland to play for the worst team in the league and a coach who he fought with earlier in his career. He played hard for the Cavs last year in meaningless games. Is there any reason to think his attitude has changed since April?


Again, if you fell for Baron Davis' act in LA, fine. But if he was gonna be a lazy ass in his home, where he has other vested interests, you'd be a moron to think he's gonna lay it on the line for a bad team - in Cleveland, Ohio.

Did he "lay it on the line" after coming over last year? Or did the Cavs win some games despite Davis being a lazy ass?

They are gonna blow. No big deal. Just the way it is. Probably won't set the NBA record for consecutive losses, that I'll give you.

Grant says they're trying to sign Anthony Parker. If they are gonna blow, it won't be because they're trying to.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:01 am

Signing Anthony Parker.

Does that mean they are trying to win?

Or trying to lose?
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:13 am

"Anthony Parker is a vital part of this team..."

- the joke regime that runs this team.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby pup » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:33 am

e0y2e3 wrote:"Anthony Parker is a vital part of this team..."

- the joke regime that runs this team and Prosecutor.



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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:18 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:"Anthony Parker is a vital part of this team..."

- the joke regime that runs this team.


Ughh.... this thread.

Now I remember why I was perfectly fine with a longer strike/lockout.

66 games... my over under is 14.5 wins.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:21 pm

This thread really is awful.

Maybe we can talk about these super awesome media driven Chris Paul to NYC rumors in another thread!!!

It's not like Bucher just came out and said Paul knows the Knicks have nothing to trade for him and he won't assfuck NO into trading him there for nothing!!!

Nope, didn't happen!
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:09 pm

pup wrote:Signing Anthony Parker.

Does that mean they are trying to win?

Or trying to lose?


Great question. I suppose the answer depends on whether you think Parker is better than Manny.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:42 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
pup wrote:Signing Anthony Parker.

Does that mean they are trying to win?

Or trying to lose?


Great question. I suppose the answer depends on whether you think Parker is better than Manny.


Parker might be the 8th or 9th guy in a good team's 8-man rotation. Harris isn't even that but because he's 22 you can see if there's any potential there.

If you're running either of them out there with this team you're losing 70% of your ball games.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:38 pm

peeker643 wrote:Parker might be the 8th or 9th guy in a good team's 8-man rotation. Harris isn't even that but because he's 22 you can see if there's any potential there.

If you're running either of them out there with this team you're losing 70% of your ball games.


Agree with your assessment of Parker, but that starting lineup of Parker, Hickson, Davis, Hollins and Gee didn't lose 70% of their games last year (actually it was 62%). Take out Hickson, add Irving, Thompson, Varajao, Jamison, and Cresspi. What percentage does that give you?
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:00 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Parker might be the 8th or 9th guy in a good team's 8-man rotation. Harris isn't even that but because he's 22 you can see if there's any potential there.

If you're running either of them out there with this team you're losing 70% of your ball games.


Agree with your assessment of Parker, but that starting lineup of Parker, Hickson, Davis, Hollins and Gee didn't lose 70% of their games last year (actually it was 62%). Take out Hickson, add Irving, Thompson, Varajao, Jamison, and Cresspi. What percentage does that give you?


I'm sticking with the 14 1/2 over under. So I'll go with 79% ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:10 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Parker might be the 8th or 9th guy in a good team's 8-man rotation. Harris isn't even that but because he's 22 you can see if there's any potential there.

If you're running either of them out there with this team you're losing 70% of your ball games.


Agree with your assessment of Parker, but that starting lineup of Parker, Hickson, Davis, Hollins and Gee didn't lose 70% of their games last year (actually it was 62%). Take out Hickson, add Irving, Thompson, Varajao, Jamison, and Cresspi. What percentage does that give you?


Why do you keep assuming that the entire rest of the league is exactly the same?
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:47 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:"Anthony Parker is a vital part of this team..."

- the joke regime that runs this team.


What I hear is "Anthony Parker is a warm body that helps fill the salary floor for a couple years, but we're trying to be nice to AP here." Just as long as they don't give him a Kevin Ollie deal.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:54 am

motherscratcher wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Parker might be the 8th or 9th guy in a good team's 8-man rotation. Harris isn't even that but because he's 22 you can see if there's any potential there.

If you're running either of them out there with this team you're losing 70% of your ball games.


Agree with your assessment of Parker, but that starting lineup of Parker, Hickson, Davis, Hollins and Gee didn't lose 70% of their games last year (actually it was 62%). Take out Hickson, add Irving, Thompson, Varajao, Jamison, and Cresspi. What percentage does that give you?


Why do you keep assuming that the entire rest of the league is exactly the same?


I'm not. Some teams will be better, some worse. Based on the roster changes since last year, I think the Cavs will be better (as of this moment).

In the 2010-11 season there were 8 teams that won less than 40% of their games.
In 2009-10, it was 10 teams.
In 2008-09, it was 8 teams.

History proves that in any given year, 8-10 teams win less than 40%. I'm assuming that will occur again this year. Any problem with that?

After acquiring Baron Davis, the Cavs won 38% of their games, despite not having Varajao and Jamison. I'm asking if there is a legitmate reason to believe the Cavs will fail to improve 2% by replacing Hickson and some guys at the end of the bench like Joey Graham and Manny Harris with Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, AV, Jamo, and Cresspi.

I also think the compressed schedule, with about 48 fewer off days but only 16 fewer games, will benefit young teams like the Cavs and hurt older teams like the Celtics, who rely heavily on a few aging stars.

There are a number of people making "Cavs are gonna suck" type statements without providing any evidence to support that opinion. I want to hear some kind of reasoned argument as to why the Cavs will win fewer than 38% of their games.

If they amnesty Davis and go with a rookie at point guard who didn't play last year and also trade Jamison and Varajao for a draft picks, then all bets are off. Grant says there will be a lot of wheeling and dealing over the next 10 days. I'm waiting to see how the Cavs decide to play it - go for wins or a better ping pong ball.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby pup » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:35 pm

You have yet to explain why you think the return of 2 players that "lead" the team to an NBA record losing streak, combined with a guy that will be begging to get out of town and will play that part to Wince Carter levels, means the team is going to resemble a winner.

You have yet to accept the fact the team that won 38% of the time late in the year against teams playing out the string and doing a better job than we were in jockeying for position for the ping pong balls.

Who is scoring for this team? An 84 year old Jamison? Who else?
This team will be one of the worst in the league. Young legs or not.

Davis
Parker
Caspi
Twan
Andy

You think that team can score enough points to win in the NBA? And we have not even gotten to the deplorable level of defense that group will be putting out there.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:06 pm

You know how I know the Cavs aren't going to be good this year Pros?

I watch the GD games. I watch the Cavs, and I watch the talent on other teams.

I understand the time it takes for rookies to get acclimated and REALLY contribute - even 1st rounders.

Good Christ, this ain't that hard. They've got far too many guys that are going to play major minutes that can't score in an open gym - and a rookie at the point to get them the ball - unless the soon to be injured malcontent has his historically fat ass at that position.

And they will have to make leaps and bounds just to be decent defensively, which again, with the combination of rookies, horrid defenders and few shot blockers (if any) in the middle...good luck.

If you stink on offense and stink on defense, you will stink.

Not sure why you're looking for some sort of disseration on this. The reason many who think they aren't going to be good haven't told you why is because anyone who isn't a GD moron can easily recognize this.

And by the way, your "short season, young leags" theory. Well, you could argue that it hurts them more than helps them because you'd like as many games as possible for Irving and the other young players to figure shit out. A young team that can already PLAY, I'll buy that thory - a team that has as much, if not more work to do than anyone in the league....It'd be better if they played a hundred.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:49 pm

pup wrote:You have yet to explain why you think the return of 2 players that "lead" the team to an NBA record losing streak, combined with a guy that will be begging to get out of town and will play that part to Wince Carter levels, means the team is going to resemble a winner.

You're blaming Varajao and Jamison for the losing streak? I think they'll be an improvement over Hollins and Hickson. We'll see.

The concern about Davis is legitimate. But you have yet to explain why he would do the Wince Carter thing. Last winter he was traded from his home town in SoCal to a bad weather team that just set a record for consecutive losses to play for a coach he was at war with earlier in his career. If he was ever going to dog it, that would have been the time. Yet he came in and led the team to 11 wins in 29 games - a huge improvement over the previous 53 games. So why would he lay down this year?

I suspect he's matured from his young hothead days and he wants to adopt the elder statesman/mentor role. That's the glass half full approach. You seem convinced he'll suddenly decide he wants out of here and become a cancer - the glass half empty approach. You could be right, but I don't see that based on last year. I guess we'll find out soon enough.


You have yet to accept the fact the team that won 38% of the time late in the year against teams playing out the string and doing a better job than we were in jockeying for position for the ping pong balls.

"Doing a better job than we were in jockeying for position for the ping pong balls"? So you're saying the Cavs were trying to lose, but their opponents were trying harder? That's why the Cavs won 38% of their games? Well, four of those wins were against playoff teams. Maybe they were trying for lower seeds for some reason.

Who is scoring for this team? An 84 year old Jamison? Who else?

The scoring will be balanced. No more 28 ppg from one guy. For example, in the Mar. 29 win over Miami, Hickson scored 21, Parker 20, Hollins 13, Davis 10, Gee 6, and Sessions chipped in with 11 off the bench. Harangoty, Eyenga, and Gibson scored 9, 7, and 5, respectively for a total of 102 points. LeBron and Wade each played 43 minutes in case you were thinking that the Heat was deliberately trying to lose for some reason. The Cavs basically won that game with defense.

This team will be one of the worst in the league. Young legs or not.

Davis
Parker
Caspi
Twan
Andy

You think that team can score enough points to win in the NBA? And we have not even gotten to the deplorable level of defense that group will be putting out there.

That looks like a better starting five to me than last year's group:

Davis
Parker
Hickson
Hollins
Gee

The bench will be better with Irving and Thompson, plus guys who were starting at various times last season (Hollins, Eyenga, Gee) will be coming off the bench.

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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:20 pm

leadpipe wrote:You know how I know the Cavs aren't going to be good this year Pros?

I watch the GD games. I watch the Cavs, and I watch the talent on other teams.

I understand the time it takes for rookies to get acclimated and REALLY contribute - even 1st rounders.

Good Christ, this ain't that hard. They've got far too many guys that are going to play major minutes that can't score in an open gym - and a rookie at the point to get them the ball - unless the soon to be injured malcontent has his historically fat ass at that position.

And they will have to make leaps and bounds just to be decent defensively, which again, with the combination of rookies, horrid defenders and few shot blockers (if any) in the middle...good luck.

If you stink on offense and stink on defense, you will stink.

Not sure why you're looking for some sort of disseration on this. The reason many who think they aren't going to be good haven't told you why is because anyone who isn't a GD moron can easily recognize this.

And by the way, your "short season, young leags" theory. Well, you could argue that it hurts them more than helps them because you'd like as many games as possible for Irving and the other young players to figure shit out. A young team that can already PLAY, I'll buy that thory - a team that has as much, if not more work to do than anyone in the league....It'd be better if they played a hundred.


Got it. You think they'll stink on offense, stink on defense, Davis will be a fat ass injured malcontent and by the time KI and TT have figured enough shit out to contribute anything the shortened season will be over.

Well, you could be right. I think the addition of AV, Twan, KI, TT, and Cresspi to a unit that won 38% of its games last year and is losing only Hickson should be a better and deeper team. You make some good points. We'll see what happens.


You may well be right.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby JJN » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:22 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I'm not. Some teams will be better, some worse. Based on the roster changes since last year, I think the Cavs will be better (as of this moment).

In the 2010-11 season there were 8 teams that won less than 40% of their games.
In 2009-10, it was 10 teams.
In 2008-09, it was 8 teams.

History proves that in any given year, 8-10 teams win less than 40%. I'm assuming that will occur again this year. Any problem with that?

After acquiring Baron Davis, the Cavs won 38% of their games, despite not having Varajao and Jamison. I'm asking if there is a legitmate reason to believe the Cavs will fail to improve 2% by replacing Hickson and some guys at the end of the bench like Joey Graham and Manny Harris with Kyrie Irving, Tristan Thompson, AV, Jamo, and Cresspi.

I also think the compressed schedule, with about 48 fewer off days but only 16 fewer games, will benefit young teams like the Cavs and hurt older teams like the Celtics, who rely heavily on a few aging stars.

There are a number of people making "Cavs are gonna suck" type statements without providing any evidence to support that opinion. I want to hear some kind of reasoned argument as to why the Cavs will win fewer than 38% of their games.

If they amnesty Davis and go with a rookie at point guard who didn't play last year and also trade Jamison and Varajao for a draft picks, then all bets are off. Grant says there will be a lot of wheeling and dealing over the next 10 days. I'm waiting to see how the Cavs decide to play it - go for wins or a better ping pong ball.


Why the Cavs will suck
a report by JJN
Grade 5

1. Not, in fact, a young team, not by the weighted average of minutes. The 7 guys who should get the majority of the minutes as the roster stands right now (assuming we bring back AP) is like this:

Kyrie 19
TT 20
Casspi (not Cresspi or Croissant or however the hell you keep spelling it) 23

Davis 32
Jamo 35
Varejao 29
Parker 36

Of those young players, TT can't shoot and Casspi can't defend anyone. The rest of our young players are, at this point, hot garbage. They stink.

2. You are assuming that being young means they are NBA ready. The "rookie wall" should occur much, much earlier this year. The NBA schedule is really tiring, even more so when you haven't had the required conditioning. Older players may suffer, but they know how to handle the grind. You think that a player who played 11 games total last year with no preseason is going to be ready to go into a 66 game season with 3 games in 3 nights? Davis always has to play himself into shape. Jamison hasn't played since Feb. Varejao is coming off foot surgery and hasn't played in almost a full year. How the hell do you think this team is going to have fresh legs?

3. We sucked last year, and we didn't really get a ton better. The 2 playoff teams we beat once BD actually started playing? The Knicks once and the Heat once. The Knicks were still in disarray after acquiring Carmelo. Other than that, we beat the Wiz, the Pistons twice, the Kings, Bobcats, and the Raptors. After the BD trade, our winning percentage was 36% Comparing that to other teams' winning percentage for their whole seasons, there would have been 5 teams worse than us. We had the worse point differential for the season, a whole 1.6pts worse than the next closest team.

That is why were are going to suck this year.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:28 pm

Are we really having this discussion?

Really?
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:53 pm

You know why there is a 140 character limit to Twitter?

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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:19 pm

Remember that one time when Pros said that the Cavs will be better at scoring now that they don't have a guy who can score 28ppg.

That's my favorite.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:24 pm

This thread has slowly become my favorite thread ever.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Demeatloaf » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:30 pm

There was this guy on various Cavs forums who would argue with me before last season. He thought the Cavs would be good, I didn't. Even after they had the season that they did, he didn't take it back.

I honestly felt like I was arguing with him over whether or not the earth was flat.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:50 pm

Fuck you you sweaty greek.

I hope your cat eats you.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:21 pm

Remember that one time when Pros said that the Cavs will be better at scoring now that they don't have a guy who can score 28ppg.


What I actually said was...

"The scoring will be balanced. No more 28 ppg from one guy."

Maybe I should explain that "balanced scoring" doesn't have the exact same meaning as "more scoring." Nah. You knew that. You're the smartest guy on this board.

JJN wrote:
Why the Cavs will suck
a report by JJN
Grade 5

1. Not, in fact, a young team, not by the weighted average of minutes. The 7 guys who should get the majority of the minutes as the roster stands right now (assuming we bring back AP) is like this:

Kyrie 19
TT 20
Casspi (not Cresspi or Croissant or however the hell you keep spelling it) 23

Davis 32
Jamo 35
Varejao 29
Parker 36

Of those young players, TT can't shoot and Casspi can't defend anyone. The rest of our young players are, at this point, hot garbage. They stink.

2. You are assuming that being young means they are NBA ready. The "rookie wall" should occur much, much earlier this year. The NBA schedule is really tiring, even more so when you haven't had the required conditioning. Older players may suffer, but they know how to handle the grind. You think that a player who played 11 games total last year with no preseason is going to be ready to go into a 66 game season with 3 games in 3 nights? Davis always has to play himself into shape. Jamison hasn't played since Feb. Varejao is coming off foot surgery and hasn't played in almost a full year. How the hell do you think this team is going to have fresh legs?

3. We sucked last year, and we didn't really get a ton better. The 2 playoff teams we beat once BD actually started playing? The Knicks once and the Heat once. The Knicks were still in disarray after acquiring Carmelo. Other than that, we beat the Wiz, the Pistons twice, the Kings, Bobcats, and the Raptors. After the BD trade, our winning percentage was 36% Comparing that to other teams' winning percentage for their whole seasons, there would have been 5 teams worse than us. We had the worse point differential for the season, a whole 1.6pts worse than the next closest team.

That is why were are going to suck this year.


Nice report. Solid points and actual facts leading to a logical conclusion. I'd give it an A.

However, I disagree with a couple of your points. Yes, we have three key players over 30, assuming they sign Parker and don't dump Davis. But I don't think any of them will be overworked. Scott will divide up the PG minutes between Davis, KI, and Sessions, if they don't trade Ramon. Davis won't be forced to play 40 minutes a night for 66 games in 127 days like, say, Rondo will because the Celtics are going for the playoffs. KI won't hit the "rookie wall" because he'll only be averaging 22-26 minutes a game.

Same with power forward where Jamison, TT, and possibly Samuels will divvy up the minutes. At off guard, Parker is a role player at this point. Scott will carefully ration out the playing time so the vets don't get toasted by the compressed schedule and the rookies still get their minutes.

It's interesting that pup says KI won't be much help early on because he'll still be adjusting to the league and JJN says he won't be of any use later because he'll have hit the rookie wall. Those are both possibilities, but come on, you guys are making the argument that the Cavs totally suck but the number 1 and number 4 picks in the draft aren't good enough to improve them. Sounds contradictory, don't you think? I say Irving makes them better the day he walks into the gym.

You also believe that Jamison, Varajao, and Davis will report out of shape and not ready to play. Are we talking about the same Antwan Jamison I'm thinking of, a true professional with a great work ethic and one of the most respected players in the league? Are we talking about the Varajao that takes charges night after night, hustles his ass off, and dives for every loose ball? These are the guys that are going to show up out of shape? Varajao was the first guy in the gym when they unlocked the door a couple of days ago. Sorry, I'm not buying that one, either.

If Irving and Thompson aren't good enough to improve a 19-63 team and if Jamo, AV, and Davis show up out of shape next week, then I'll admit I'm wrong.

Other than that, we beat the Wiz, the Pistons twice, the Kings, Bobcats, and the Raptors.

Guess what, those teams are still in the league. In fact, somebody mentioned that with the shortened schedule we'll play a lower percentage of games against Western Conference teams than usual. Don't try and tell me that won't help the W-L.

After the BD trade, our winning percentage was 36% Comparing that to other teams' winning percentage for their whole seasons, there would have been 5 teams worse than us.

So what are you expecting this year? Greater than or less than 36%? And when you say the Cavs are going to "suck", how many wins does that equate to?
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:28 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Remember that one time when Pros said that the Cavs will be better at scoring now that they don't have a guy who can score 28ppg.


What I actually said was...

"The scoring will be balanced. No more 28 ppg from one guy."

Maybe I should explain that "balanced scoring" doesn't have the exact same meaning as "more scoring." Nah. You knew that. You're the smartest guy on this board.



Thank you. Finally, someone says it. Will you tell that to e0y? He always acts like I'm an idiot or something.
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Re: They're Back!

Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:37 am

Thank you. Finally, someone says it. Will you tell that to e0y? He always acts like I'm an idiot or something.


I'm sure you're just being overly sensitive to the subtle nuances of his language.
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