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QB lottery

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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:48 pm

I don't really see any difference in what you or I are saying. Of course if you can play you can play, but to assume watching Favre had zero positive impact on Rodgers game is naive and borderline nuts. Regardless of how minute or if it was an intangible he took away, watching a guy who could play the position well is always going to have a positive impact of some kind.

The interception thing, yeah no doubt Rodgers made a note to self, or he just flat out isn't color blind like Brett used to be.

I'd bet there are a good number of QB that we consider failures (maybe even busts) that would have had significantly different careers if put into a similar situation as a Rodgers or POS. No way in hell that scouts miss that high a % on projecting high round QBs. Not all would be SB winners, but many could have easily held down the position for years adding stability to a lot of offenses until the right guy arrived.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Govbarney » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:00 pm

FUDU wrote:I'd bet there are a good number of QB that we consider failures (maybe even busts) that would have had significantly different careers if put into a similar situation as a Rodgers or POS. No way in hell that scouts miss that high a % on projecting high round QBs. Not all would be SB winners, but many could have easily held down the position for years adding stability to a lot of offenses until the right guy arrived.


I call this the Tim Couch paradox
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:58 pm

Govbarney wrote:
FUDU wrote:I'd bet there are a good number of QB that we consider failures (maybe even busts) that would have had significantly different careers if put into a similar situation as a Rodgers or POS. No way in hell that scouts miss that high a % on projecting high round QBs. Not all would be SB winners, but many could have easily held down the position for years adding stability to a lot of offenses until the right guy arrived.


I call this the Tim Couch paradox


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If i only had a brain .


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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:01 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And seriously if this team drafts a WR or RB in the top ten Cleveland needs to just march to Berea and burn it down.

There is a lot of analysis I could do to prove that Super Bowl contenders don't draft RBs and WRs in the top ten, but instead I'll just say.... DON'T BE FUCKING STUPID.


Maybe so but, the Browns still aren't going to draft a QB with their 1st pick next yr...

Draft a Franchise QB until you have one.

As far as the Browns' FO is concerned, he is #12 and all the angst in the world isn't going to change that

McCoy can win in the 4th qtr............... and he had an awakening today in the 3rd QTR and its the reason OB ran for a buck plus.....believe it...or don't, and carry on with wasted conjecture


SD:

Did he improve this team like Dalton improved the bengals .

We have the worst QB in the division, who we gonna beat with that, let alone win championships.


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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby trsteve1 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:07 pm

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/951675-comparing-browns-qb-colt-mccoy-vs-other-young-nfl-qbs

Worth reading, if at least for the look at the various stats, and how McCoy stacks up against other 1st or 2nd year QBs

Maybe we have a bit more than most think.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Triple-S » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:20 pm

McCoy is not bad..he's just not elite.

I've come to that conclusion. He's not going to do what Aaron Rodgers is doing right now.

He won't prevent you from winning a game, but he won't be "the guy".
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby trsteve1 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:30 pm

Triple-S wrote:McCoy is not bad..he's just not elite.

I've come to that conclusion. He's not going to do what Aaron Rodgers is doing right now.

He won't prevent you from winning a game, but he won't be "the guy".


Well, how many QBs go on a run like A-Rod?
Brady, for 4 years, and has come down a little bit
Manning, has been declining slightly
Brees had a magical year, and high success for a bunch, but nothing like what A-Rod is doing
Eli was ELITE for 4 games at the end of a season

What A-Rod is doing is rare, and I don't expect him to do it again next year, it's the nature of the beast, the question is, could McCoy put it together for a year with the right team around him? Certainly he elevated his game his Junior year at UT on to a great run. I think he could take a good Browns team places.. but yea, he's gotta have talent around him.

But, so do the greats. A-Rod has the best or maybe second best TE at the moment in the game, some of the best WRs after the catch, and oh yea, a defense that sets him up in GREAT field position constantly. Brady has Welker and a head coach who is allegedly a genius. Brees has one of the best TEs in the game, Colston, Henderson and other deep threats, and Sproles to dump it to..

McCoy has something called Ogbannaya, something else called Massaquoi and a guy who might turn into a WR name Little.. and Cribbs might accidentally turn into a WR someday.. who knows?

JUST SAYIN'
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:43 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And seriously if this team drafts a WR or RB in the top ten Cleveland needs to just march to Berea and burn it down.

There is a lot of analysis I could do to prove that Super Bowl contenders don't draft RBs and WRs in the top ten, but instead I'll just say.... DON'T BE FUCKING STUPID.


Maybe so but, the Browns still aren't going to draft a QB with their 1st pick next yr...

Draft a Franchise QB until you have one.

As far as the Browns' FO is concerned, he is #12 and all the angst in the world isn't going to change that

McCoy can win in the 4th qtr............... and he had an awakening today in the 3rd QTR and its the reason OB ran for a buck plus.....believe it...or don't, and carry on with wasted conjecture


SD:

Did he improve this team like Dalton improved the bengals .

We have the worst QB in the division, who we gonna beat with that, let alone win championships.


SoulDawg


Your problem is you think 8 games makes a career

The elephant in the room is Sanchize and your knobslobbing and blubbering over him for two yrs....now his shit stinks and you're on Dalton, Gabbert, Newton or whomever the flavor of the MOMENT turns out to be

Anyone But Colt is all you got. He could light it up the rest of the season and you'd still bitch and whine like a little girl

In fact, your worst fucking nitemare is Colt McCoy succeeding and I'd bet $100 you'd like to see him and the Browns stink as much as your takes just to tell yourself you were right when in reality you know less about QB's than CDT does about pizza





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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Triple-S » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:15 pm

McCoy is a guy I can only see succeeding with an elite team around him. But he neds that. If he doesn't have the personnel around he's "meh".

Drop him in Philly, Dallas or the Jets, he'd be up for a pro-bowl. I honestly believe that with the Jets he'd have them in 2 SB's by now.

Manning, Brady, Rodgers, POS, and maybe Brees depending on the year could take over this current team and have them in the playoff hunt.

So your options are as follows:

A.) Draft a QB this year if one that looks like the above is available, and pray that it speeds up the process.

B.) Pray that Heckert is able to pull off a philly like build up, and McCoy is able to grow along with it.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:34 pm

The defense between Dalton and McCoy right now is they have a running game, an OC, an established HC, and one of the best up and coming WR's in Green and another WR in Simpson who is better then what we have right now. The Bengals D and the Browns D is pretty much the same to me from week to week. Shurmur just has too much on his plate and hopefully with a full offseason next year the Browns will be more prepared and in a better position to win close games.

I would love for the Browns not to draft a QB this year with those two first round picks. I want them to continue to build a young elite defense. I think McCoy is good enough with an elite D to take this team where it has not been since they returned.


Build the offense through free agency with proven NFL players. I would love to see them get Michael Bush from the Raiders in teh offseason he will be a FA.

I have seen nothing from Hardesty that would lead me to believe he should be a lead back in this league. I think Little could be a legit #1 WR for this team and if we continue to get Cribbs touches on offense. Evan Moore hopefully will get owrked into this offense more as the year goes on and into training camp.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:32 pm

FUDU wrote:I don't really see any difference in what you or I are saying. Of course if you can play you can play, but to assume watching Favre had zero positive impact on Rodgers game is naive and borderline nuts. Regardless of how minute or if it was an intangible he took away, watching a guy who could play the position well is always going to have a positive impact of some kind.

The interception thing, yeah no doubt Rodgers made a note to self, or he just flat out isn't color blind like Brett used to be.

I'd bet there are a good number of QB that we consider failures (maybe even busts) that would have had significantly different careers if put into a similar situation as a Rodgers or POS. No way in hell that scouts miss that high a % on projecting high round QBs. Not all would be SB winners, but many could have easily held down the position for years adding stability to a lot of offenses until the right guy arrived.


We agree that situations make a difference.

We disagree the value of tutoring.

I stand by the last sentence in my previous post, that is, Aaron Rodgers following Doug Pederson is the same GD player he is now.

There's far more great quarterbacks that stepped in for stiffs then were "tutored" by greats.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:32 pm

leadpipe wrote:We agree that situations make a difference.

We disagree the value of tutoring.

I stand by the last sentence in my previous post, that is, Aaron Rodgers following Doug Pederson is the same GD player he is now.

There's far more great quarterbacks that stepped in for stiffs then were "tutored" by greats.


I don't necessarily think that Rodgers was "tutored" by Farve, and I'm not convinced how helpful that it was. What I think is that he clearly benefitted from sitting and watching for those 3 years. Being immersed in a winning culture. Knowing competence from the front office, to the coaching staff, to the players on the field. Being exposed to NFL game speed in practice and watching on the sideline long before he was exposed to it on Sunday's under center.

I'm not saying that it is what made hm who he is. He likely would have endednup Aaron Rodgers regardless. But I have to think those Thngs made a big difference. Or at least made the transition a lot easier.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:42 pm

trsteve1 wrote:http://bleacherreport.com/articles/951675-comparing-browns-qb-colt-mccoy-vs-other-young-nfl-qbs

Worth reading, if at least for the look at the various stats, and how McCoy stacks up against other 1st or 2nd year QBs

Maybe we have a bit more than most think.


Those stats are interesting. I was ready to write off Colt a month ago, but he has looked significantly better the last couple of weeks. Still, he doesn't look like a guy thatcan turn into one of the top QBs in the league. Inhope he proves me wrong.

At this point, I'd still like one of the top 3 QBs in this draft. Mostly because I think they all have the potential to be that good. We will see if I still feel that way about Colt after the season.

also, please, for the love of all that is good and holy, I'm begging you...don't call Aaron Rodgers A-Rod anymore. You're fuckin killing me.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:45 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:And seriously if this team drafts a WR or RB in the top ten Cleveland needs to just march to Berea and burn it down.

There is a lot of analysis I could do to prove that Super Bowl contenders don't draft RBs and WRs in the top ten, but instead I'll just say.... DON'T BE FUCKING STUPID.


Maybe so but, the Browns still aren't going to draft a QB with their 1st pick next yr...

Draft a Franchise QB until you have one.

As far as the Browns' FO is concerned, he is #12 and all the angst in the world isn't going to change that

McCoy can win in the 4th qtr............... and he had an awakening today in the 3rd QTR and its the reason OB ran for a buck plus.....believe it...or don't, and carry on with wasted conjecture


SD:

Did he improve this team like Dalton improved the bengals .

We have the worst QB in the division, who we gonna beat with that, let alone win championships.


SoulDawg


Your problem is you think 8 games makes a career

The elephant in the room is Sanchize and your knobslobbing and blubbering over him for two yrs....now his shit stinks and you're on Dalton, Gabbert, Newton or whomever the flavor of the MOMENT turns out to be

Anyone But Colt is all you got. He could light it up the rest of the season and you'd still bitch and whine like a little girl

In fact, your worst fucking nitemare is Colt McCoy succeeding and I'd bet $100 you'd like to see him and the Browns stink as much as your takes just to tell yourself you were right when in reality you know less about QB's than CDT does about pizza





...and talking to you is like talking to a wall


SD:


Colt could succeed here on the Browns if we had an All pro at all the rest of the positions .

He's been outplayed by a half a dozen rookies this year in his second year after 18 starts .

He'd kill to have four playoff wins in his first two years like Sanchez.

Oh and head to head , he's down there too o - 1 .

Now you chew on that while you stew over your next even dumber ass reply.

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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:22 am

leadpipe wrote:
FUDU wrote:I don't really see any difference in what you or I are saying. Of course if you can play you can play, but to assume watching Favre had zero positive impact on Rodgers game is naive and borderline nuts. Regardless of how minute or if it was an intangible he took away, watching a guy who could play the position well is always going to have a positive impact of some kind.

The interception thing, yeah no doubt Rodgers made a note to self, or he just flat out isn't color blind like Brett used to be.

I'd bet there are a good number of QB that we consider failures (maybe even busts) that would have had significantly different careers if put into a similar situation as a Rodgers or POS. No way in hell that scouts miss that high a % on projecting high round QBs. Not all would be SB winners, but many could have easily held down the position for years adding stability to a lot of offenses until the right guy arrived.


We agree that situations make a difference.

We disagree the value of tutoring.

I stand by the last sentence in my previous post, that is, Aaron Rodgers following Doug Pederson is the same GD player he is now.

There's far more great quarterbacks that stepped in for stiffs then were "tutored" by greats.

Not to be a dick LP but yeah, duh. There are simply fewer greats than stiffs to begin with, and it is rare for an org. to rush into replacing a great and pretty common for an org to want to replace a stiff ASAP.

I think mo articulates a middle ground between any difference you & I might have on this.

IMO one thing is for certain right now, Aaron Rodgers is playing the position smoother than anyone in the game, and maybe anyone in history.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:56 am

motherscratcher wrote:
leadpipe wrote:We agree that situations make a difference.

We disagree the value of tutoring.

I stand by the last sentence in my previous post, that is, Aaron Rodgers following Doug Pederson is the same GD player he is now.

There's far more great quarterbacks that stepped in for stiffs then were "tutored" by greats.


I don't necessarily think that Rodgers was "tutored" by Farve, and I'm not convinced how helpful that it was. What I think is that he clearly benefitted from sitting and watching for those 3 years. Being immersed in a winning culture. Knowing competence from the front office, to the coaching staff, to the players on the field. Being exposed to NFL game speed in practice and watching on the sideline long before he was exposed to it on Sunday's under center.

I'm not saying that it is what made hm who he is. He likely would have endednup Aaron Rodgers regardless. But I have to think those Thngs made a big difference. Or at least made the transition a lot easier.


So your saying he picked up some of those "intangibles"?

Look, I think it would behoove anyone a rookies age to be able to watch awhile, but in the big picture it does very lttle for his career. Aaron Rodgers was very good the minute he stepped on the field, including the few times he took over for Favre.You learn little about game speed until you're in there and if a winning culture is in place fine, but the good ones at that position create it anyways.

Sanchez and Big Ben are two guys that got thrown into great situations. At the end of the day it all boils down to who can PLAY. Put a QB in front of Sanchez for a couple years, and you'd be delaying for two years what you see now, not making him better. He ain't gonna play the game faster, nor get more accurate simply by watching Johnny FootballHero - and those are things that make a far bigger difference.

Thie history of the league tells us so.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby trsteve1 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:57 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:
SD:


Colt could succeed here on the Browns if we had an All pro at all the rest of the positions .

He's been outplayed by a half a dozen rookies this year in his second year after 18 starts .


He'd kill to have four playoff wins in his first two years like Sanchez.

Oh and head to head , he's down there too o - 1 .

Now you chew on that while you stew over your next even dumber ass reply.

SoulDawg


In the head to head matchup with Sanchez, the Jets were the BETTER TEAM and won the game, interestingly enough, often times in team sports, the BETTER TEAM wins the game, and not the team with the better player at a single position (if that were the case, I truly believe the Jets would NEVER win, because Sanchez might be the worst QB out there), now, did Sanchez have some great moments escaping the Browns' pass rush? Sure. But only because he was so slow in his decision making that he had given the Browns enough time to finally break through their stalwart line. In the end, it still took an overtime pass and a SUPERSTAR move by Santonio Holmes for the PLAYOFF Jets and Mark Sanchez to beat the lowly Cleveland Browns. I think that says more to Sanchez's deficiencies than anything.

Furthermore, McCoy hasn't been outplayed by other rookie quarterbacks, ESPN just wants you to think that because no one cares about Cleveland. Here are some stats to justify my statement, instead of the pure conjecture that you usually spew.


McCoy - 60.1% cmp, 3757 yds, 6.5 y/a, 17 TD, 16 INT, 77.4 RAT, 6-12 in 18 games (.333), with 2 OCs and ZERO playmakers around him (8 games with a solid running game, with Hillis), however the running game is averaging 3.5 y/a this year.. Though, the Browns Defense has saved the team on quite a few occasions. Keep in mind as well, that McCoy is playing better this year than last, and his career stats are weighted down a bit by that fact (same with Stafford, whose rookie year was actually quite bad)

Newton - 60% cmp, 2885 yds, 7.9 y/a, 12 TD, 14, INT, 80 RAT, 2-8 (.200) with a stud for a receiver in Smith, and an underutilized running game that is averaging almost 5 y/a

Stafford - 58.3% cmp, 5921 yds, 6.5 y/a, 45 TD, 34 INT, 78.5 RAT (61 RAT his rookie year), 10-14 (.417) with Megatron and a running game that averages 4.5 y/a this season

Bradford - 58.2% cmp, 5280 yds, 6.0 y/a, 23 TD, 20 INT, 74.6 RAT, 8-16 (.333) with scrubs for receivers but a strong running game behind Steven Jackson (not to mention his ability to catch the ball)

Sanchez - 55.2% cmp, 8086 yds, 6.7 y/a, 43 TD, 43 INT, 72.9 RAT, 24-17 (.585) with a solid running game, TOP NOTCH receivers with the likes of Holmes, Edwards, Cotchery, etc.. Solid running game behind one of the better OLs in the game, and oh, right, a BEST in the league quality Defense (defense kept the Jets in the playoffs most years, despite Sanchez's inability to Quarterback effectively)

Dalton - 58.7% cmp, 2239 yds, 6.7 y/a, 15 TD, 12 INT, 79.6 RAT, 6-4 (.600) Dalton has actually impressed me. However, he does have some emerging WRs in Simpson and Green, and a solid young TE in Gresham and the Bengals Defense is quite underrated and has kept them in many a game.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:21 pm

leadpipe wrote:So your saying he picked up some of those "intangibles"?


Where in the world did I say anything about "intangibles"?

leadpipe wrote:I think it would behoove anyone a rookies age to be able to watch awhile...


And that's all I'm saying. I'm saying it helps and it matters, nut it doesn't make a bad QB good. Rodgers would have been Rodgers regardless. But I think that time helped him and made it easier for him. That's all.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:24 pm

trsteve1 wrote:McCoy - 60.1% cmp, 3757 yds, 6.5 y/a, 17 TD, 16 INT, 77.4 RAT, 6-12 in 18 games (.333), with 2 OCs and ZERO playmakers around him (8 games with a solid running game, with Hillis), however the running game is averaging 3.5 y/a this year.


I grow a little weary or the zero playmakers argument - it takes way too much responsibility off Colt. Cribbs, Little, Moore, Watson, even Norwood have shown (especially in the last few weeks) that they can make plays if you can actually get them the ball, which he struggled at doing this year. Are they "elite" playmakers? Course not. But the dropoff from, say, New England's playmakers to Cleveland's is probably about the same as the dropoff from, say, Phillip Rivers to McCoy.

Put Aaron Rodgers on this team and the non-elite playmakers here would suddenly look a helluva lot better.

I will certainly concede that those guys will never be mistaken for a Larry Fitzgerald or a Calvin Johnson, but claiming that he has "nothing" around him is clearly disingenous. Maybe it's Colt that's holding THEM back (I doubt it, but it's hard to say without seeing them with a franchise QB).

Your rookie QB comparison is enough, you don't need to make excuses to try and "prove" your point.

PS - To claim that, say, Greg Little can "never" become elite (especially with a really good QB) is the same as claiming that Colt McCoy can "never" become elite. And if a player can never become elite, why not replace him with someone you think can?
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:48 pm

I don't know what Colt will be. As stated before, he seems competent and less than 'elite'.

One thing to keep in mind isn't so much the 'playmakers' around him, but rather the inexperience. Hillis's funk and injury hurt a lot.

You have backs back there who never played at an NFL level before in A Smith, Ogbonnaya,(essentially), Marecic and Hardesty.

You have rookies in Pinkston and Lauvao. You have Little and Norwood as well.

Not one of those guys had started more than one or two games in the NFL before this season. Asking them to get up to speed in a new offense at NFL regular season speed, and doing so without issues at the level they need to produce, is nuts.

Take away Brandon Jackson's blitz pick up ability and Steinbach's production and leadership, along with all of that above, and I really don't give a flying fuck who you put under center because there would be problems.

Again, none of it means McCoy is blameless or the answer. I'm saying there's no way anyone can say with a great deal of clarity or accuracy what he can actually do.

You can see he's not a guy who can overcome all of that with what he brings. If you think someone else would be markedly better, someone in their 2nd NFL season, well, I think you're crazy.

The talent may be there, that's debatable. The experience is not and that's not debatable. I think it's also why you see the offense looking a small bit better as the year goes on.

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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:13 pm

I don't think any of these rookies that are coming out would be doing much better then McCoy has done this year. I understand McCoy has had a couple more NFL games under his belt. But the play calling has not helped and Shurmur not giving McCoy audiables to call at the line will handicap any QB.

Right now if Rodgers, Brees, Brady, or Mannings was put on this team right now. Do you think they would be fine with the plays they are given to run without any auidables to call. Those guys would laugh in Shurmur's fan and run there own offense. Lets remember back in the day the QB would call most of the plays because they did not have the fancy headsets in their helemets.

There is plenty of blame and excuses to go around for why the Browns are in the position they are in. At some point we are going to have to have faith in a QB and just go with him. McCoy is obviously someone Holmgren thinks highly of and thinks can mature into a good NFL QB. I honestly hope we go into next season with McCoy as the starting QB because drafting a rookie I think would be like playing this year all over again.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby jerryroche » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:37 pm

Cleveland Matt wrote:McCoy is obviously someone Holmgren thinks highly of and thinks can mature into a good NFL QB.


Holmgren has NEVER given McCoy a vote of confidence. At best, he believes in giving the kid a chance to be the Browns' starting QB for years to come. This season is that chance, and if McCoy isn't consistently more accurate, Holmgren will not hesitate to recommend that Heckert draft a QB in the spring.

I'd love to see him under center for the next few years, but the results he's produced so far are hardly eye-catching. I'd give him a 5.5 or 6 out of 10 so far; ideally, if you want to win 10 games or more, you're going to need AT LEAST an 8 at QB (7.5 if the defense is top-tier, a la Joe Flacco).
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:08 pm

peeker643 wrote:I don't know what Colt will be. As stated before, he seems competent and less than 'elite'.

One thing to keep in mind isn't so much the 'playmakers' around him, but rather the inexperience. Hillis's funk and injury hurt a lot.

You have backs back there who never played at an NFL level before in A Smith, Ogbonnaya,(essentially), Marecic and Hardesty.

You have rookies in Pinkston and Lauvao. You have Little and Norwood as well.

Not one of those guys had started more than one or two games in the NFL before this season. Asking them to get up to speed in a new offense at NFL regular season speed, and doing so without issues at the level they need to produce, is nuts.

Take away Brandon Jackson's blitz pick up ability and Steinbach's production and leadership, along with all of that above, and I really don't give a flying fuck who you put under center because there would be problems.

Again, none of it means McCoy is blameless or the answer. I'm saying there's no way anyone can say with a great deal of clarity or accuracy what he can actually do.

You can see he's not a guy who can overcome all of that with what he brings. If you think someone else would be markedly better, someone in their 2nd NFL season, well, I think you're crazy.

The talent may be there, that's debatable. The experience is not and that's not debatable. I think it's also why you see the offense looking a small bit better as the year goes on.

YMMV


This here....

I'm just not getting the finality of peoples opinion based on the obvious

Internet Nostrodamatism I guess

If Little and Norwood are 'comming along', its because they're finally in the game plan

Norwood should have started last yr and Slow Mass is a #4 at best

The sooner Cribbs returns to ST and another real NFL WR takes his place the better

In any event...the only words that describe McCoy and his future in the NFL are... "We shall see"
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:34 am

There is no objective way to judge a young QB like Colt without solid to good OL play, end of story.

The importance of the QB position in today's NFL has not diminished the impact of a consistent & good offensive line.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:54 am

jerryroche wrote:
Cleveland Matt wrote:McCoy is obviously someone Holmgren thinks highly of and thinks can mature into a good NFL QB.


Holmgren has NEVER given McCoy a vote of confidence. At best, he believes in giving the kid a chance to be the Browns' starting QB for years to come. This season is that chance, and if McCoy isn't consistently more accurate, Holmgren will not hesitate to recommend that Heckert draft a QB in the spring.

I'd love to see him under center for the next few years, but the results he's produced so far are hardly eye-catching. I'd give him a 5.5 or 6 out of 10 so far; ideally, if you want to win 10 games or more, you're going to need AT LEAST an 8 at QB (7.5 if the defense is top-tier, a la Joe Flacco).



He likes him enough to name in the starter from the start of training camp and lets see this is Holmgren 2nd year in charge, He only has 3 years left don't you think if he wants to be here when the Browns finally are a consistent winnings team. I honestly don't think once his contract is up he is staying here.

I just think as Browns fans we deserve a winning team but at the same time we can't keep blwoing through QB's just because the overall team is has never been really full of nfl players. The closest we came was with Anderson when the Browns missed the playoffs at 10-6.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:06 pm

Also can anyone name me one game this year so far that McCoy has lost us the game on his own with his bad play

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=A ... oll_112411

This is no the front page of yahoo NFL section on McCoy

Wow tough love from Dabol or him just being a douche?
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:12 pm

trsteve1 wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
SD:


Colt could succeed here on the Browns if we had an All pro at all the rest of the positions .

He's been outplayed by a half a dozen rookies this year in his second year after 18 starts .


He'd kill to have four playoff wins in his first two years like Sanchez.

Oh and head to head , he's down there too o - 1 .

Now you chew on that while you stew over your next even dumber ass reply.

SoulDawg


In the head to head matchup with Sanchez, the Jets were the BETTER TEAM and won the game, interestingly enough, often times in team sports, the BETTER TEAM wins the game, and not the team with the better player at a single position (if that were the case, I truly believe the Jets would NEVER win, because Sanchez might be the worst QB out there), now, did Sanchez have some great moments escaping the Browns' pass rush? Sure. But only because he was so slow in his decision making that he had given the Browns enough time to finally break through their stalwart line. In the end, it still took an overtime pass and a SUPERSTAR move by Santonio Holmes for the PLAYOFF Jets and Mark Sanchez to beat the lowly Cleveland Browns. I think that says more to Sanchez's deficiencies than anything.

Furthermore, McCoy hasn't been outplayed by other rookie quarterbacks, ESPN just wants you to think that because no one cares about Cleveland. Here are some stats to justify my statement, instead of the pure conjecture that you usually spew.


McCoy - 60.1% cmp, 3757 yds, 6.5 y/a, 17 TD, 16 INT, 77.4 RAT, 6-12 in 18 games (.333), with 2 OCs and ZERO playmakers around him (8 games with a solid running game, with Hillis), however the running game is averaging 3.5 y/a this year.. Though, the Browns Defense has saved the team on quite a few occasions. Keep in mind as well, that McCoy is playing better this year than last, and his career stats are weighted down a bit by that fact (same with Stafford, whose rookie year was actually quite bad)

Newton - 60% cmp, 2885 yds, 7.9 y/a, 12 TD, 14, INT, 80 RAT, 2-8 (.200) with a stud for a receiver in Smith, and an underutilized running game that is averaging almost 5 y/a

Stafford - 58.3% cmp, 5921 yds, 6.5 y/a, 45 TD, 34 INT, 78.5 RAT (61 RAT his rookie year), 10-14 (.417) with Megatron and a running game that averages 4.5 y/a this season

Bradford - 58.2% cmp, 5280 yds, 6.0 y/a, 23 TD, 20 INT, 74.6 RAT, 8-16 (.333) with scrubs for receivers but a strong running game behind Steven Jackson (not to mention his ability to catch the ball)

Sanchez - 55.2% cmp, 8086 yds, 6.7 y/a, 43 TD, 43 INT, 72.9 RAT, 24-17 (.585) with a solid running game, TOP NOTCH receivers with the likes of Holmes, Edwards, Cotchery, etc.. Solid running game behind one of the better OLs in the game, and oh, right, a BEST in the league quality Defense (defense kept the Jets in the playoffs most years, despite Sanchez's inability to Quarterback effectively)

Dalton - 58.7% cmp, 2239 yds, 6.7 y/a, 15 TD, 12 INT, 79.6 RAT, 6-4 (.600) Dalton has actually impressed me. However, he does have some emerging WRs in Simpson and Green, and a solid young TE in Gresham and the Bengals Defense is quite underrated and has kept them in many a game.


SD:

Newton and Dalton as rookies with no training Camp eclipse what Colt has done in two years of play , especially Newton who is in reach after 10 games of what Colt has done over two seasons .

But thats not the question .

There is nobody in Carolina or Cincy asking if either is the answer , while here after two years into Rudy, we're scared of the question , let alone willing to answer.


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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:16 pm

Newton, with Steve Smith at WR, is 2-8...

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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:41 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Newton, with Steve Smith at WR, is 2-8...

Just win Baby


SD:

Yeah and with Jimmy Clausen Smith was ready to retire from football.


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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:15 pm

Is there a mock draft anywhere with RG3 going in the 1st round?
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby hiko » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:22 pm

Cleveland Matt wrote:Also can anyone name me one game this year so far that McCoy has lost us the game on his own with his bad play

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=A ... oll_112411

This is no the front page of yahoo NFL section on McCoy

Wow tough love from Dabol or him just being a douche?


You can tell Daboll is a douche whether it was tough love or not. The NFL Offensive Coordinator's Club is really gonna miss him when he gets fired again this year.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Triple-S » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:43 pm

I believe one of the best stories I had heard from Bart Starr in regards to playing under Lombardi is him going into the office after being dressed down and told him something to the effect of not being criticized like that in front of the team, but rather to be done in private because otherwise it was detrimental to the team. And the rest is history...

Daboll is a fucking moron.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby trsteve1 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:33 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:SD:

Newton and Dalton as rookies with no training Camp eclipse what Colt has done in two years of play , especially Newton who is in reach after 10 games of what Colt has done over two seasons .

But thats not the question .

There is nobody in Carolina or Cincy asking if either is the answer , while here after two years into Rudy, we're scared of the question , let alone willing to answer.


SoulDawg


Yup, we'll see how they do next year. Thing about the NFL and QBs.. it takes a while to see.. Part of no one asking in Cincy or Carolina, I think is because BOTH of those teams were supposed to be awful this year. Carolina still is awful, so no worries there for anyone, and the media overlooked Cincy's solid Defense when forecasting another putrid year. I think not enough people realized how much the lack of continuity was going to hurt the Browns.

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Is there a mock draft anywhere with RG3 going in the 1st round?


Yes, here.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012.php
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:53 pm

I heard RG3 on the SVP show earlier this week. Everything I heard him say points to him staying in school another year to try and win big at Baylor.

I seen the mock draft Richardson is a really interesting player to me but I am just concenred with taking a RB that high in the draft if he is there. I have no doubt he will be a good fit for the Browns if they lose Hillis but it is still enough games left for the Browns to move up or down too many spots to even know where they will fall.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby swerb » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:29 am

RG III and Barkley both have looked great tonight.

Browns will be picking between 5 and 10. They almost gotta go QB, right?
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby mistero » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:53 am

Color me confused right now. I think we are right on the edge of build around McCoy or upgrade with a "franchise qb" that will be available where we pick (Barkley).

Up to Colt to push my mind one way or another in these last 6 games. Gotta think that's where Heckert and Holmgren are too.

Too early to say anything except that Luck to Indy is written in ink.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby mistero » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:59 am

"I heard RG3 on the SVP show earlier this week. Everything I heard him say points to him staying in school another year to try and win big at Baylor. "

Yeah but look where Ponder and Locker went last year. I think with the smaller 1st round contracts ,QB's are seeing their value push up the draft boards. RGIII will be a top 15 pick. What's he gonna win at Baylor? That being said.....I'm still afraid he's more runner than thrower. I'll take Barkley or keep Colt.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:36 am

mistero wrote:Color me confused right now. I think we are right on the edge of build around McCoy or upgrade with a "franchise qb" that will be available where we pick (Barkley).

Up to Colt to push my mind one way or another in these last 6 games. Gotta think that's where Heckert and Holmgren are too.

Too early to say anything except that Luck to Indy is written in ink.


I feel the same way. A few weeks ago I would have said that we were going QB for sure. Colts shown enough the last 2 weeks to make these final 6 games interesting. I still think we need a QB, but I'm willing to let colt change my mind...if he's able. Let's see what he looks like against AFCN in bad weather when he's been in the system long enough for it not to be an excuse ant more.

And let's see if that noodle arm of his is really a noodle, or if it's just a matter of perception being reality.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:59 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Is there a mock draft anywhere with RG3 going in the 1st round?



SD:

Naw just the ones which have Cam Newton converting to TE
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby hiko » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:41 pm

mistero wrote:"I heard RG3 on the SVP show earlier this week. Everything I heard him say points to him staying in school another year to try and win big at Baylor. "

Yeah but look where Ponder and Locker went last year. I think with the smaller 1st round contracts ,QB's are seeing their value push up the draft boards. RGIII will be a top 15 pick. What's he gonna win at Baylor? That being said.....I'm still afraid he's more runner than thrower. I'll take Barkley or keep Colt.


What gives you that impression?

Dude is averaging 334.4 yards per game (72.6% completion rate). He has 3678 yard passing, 7th in the country. He averages 10.6 yds/completion, most in FBS for a QB with more than 150 attempts (so it's not like he's dinking and dunking). 34 passing TD's. Sure, he has 149 runs for 635 yards, but that averages to about 11 runs a game (as opposed to 35 pass attempts/game). That's hardly up there with the "running" QB's.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:15 pm

Yes, here.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012.php[/quote]

I meant other than to sell tickets....... :pop:

Despite my devils advocate position on a Browns QB, I'd have no problem if the Browns draft him

That being said, they're are so many variables that will come into play between now and the draft that the constant harping on the need to replace McCoy when the entire team sucks ass is just wasted word play

McCoy has the next 6 games to prove himself to the naysayers. I say he shows enuff to keep his job.

Granted, he'll never show enuff for SD but, that's been a given ever since the Browns passed on trading their entire draft and their next 4 #1's for Cam Newton....who is 2-8


Miami Dolphins: Robert Griffin, QB, Baylor
I mentioned earlier that Matt Barkley and Robert Griffin are 2 and 2a behind Andrew Luck. Well, I think Griffin is a player that owner Stephen Ross will covet over Barkley. All Ross wants to do is bring people to his stadium and hang out with celebrities, so a flashy player like Griffin might just be what he's looking for.

I guess this selection depends on how the Dolphins finish. If Matt Moore continues to play well and the Dolphins win enough games to save Tony Sparano's job, Miami could draft Morris Claiborne, Michael Floyd or Jonathan Martin. If not, a new regime will want its own quarterback.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby pup » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:02 pm

Don't trade up unless it is for Luck.

If they have questions about Colt ,and love who is there at their spot, take the QB.

If they believe in Colt, or if who is there they do not love, take something else.

In other, BPA. As long as it is not a RB :hide:
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby mistero » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:42 pm

I've seen RGIII three times now. He seems like all his big plays are on the ground or by scrambling and playing backyard football.

I'm back off the Colt can win bandwagon. He's just Kyle Orton part duex.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:50 pm

mistero wrote:I've seen RGIII three times now. He seems like all his big plays are on the ground or by scrambling and playing backyard football.

I'm back off the Colt can win bandwagon. He's just Kyle Orton part duex.


SD:

Orton at least has an NFL arm and can make all the throws , while Colt has more mobility .

Neither is clutch in the clutch
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby That_Guy™ » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:59 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
mistero wrote:I've seen RGIII three times now. He seems like all his big plays are on the ground or by scrambling and playing backyard football.

I'm back off the Colt can win bandwagon. He's just Kyle Orton part duex.


SD:

Orton at least has an NFL arm and can make all the throws , while Colt has more mobility .

Neither is clutch in the clutch


Kinda hard to be clutch when you have balls bouncing off your receivers' hands.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:23 am

mistero wrote:I've seen RGIII three times now. He seems like all his big plays are on the ground or by scrambling and playing backyard football.

I'm back off the Colt can win bandwagon. He's just Kyle Orton part duex.


You are black yet hate black QBs?

This is the weirdest thing ever, because no one on earth that has watched RGIII play would say anything as stupid as what you said above.

It may be the single dumbest thing written in this thread (WHICH INCLUDES SD).

Should I just call you uncle T?
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:34 am

You are black yet hate black QBs?

This is the weirdest thing ever, because no one on earth that has watched RGIII play would say anything as stupid as what you said above.

It may be the single dumbest thing written in this thread (WHICH INCLUDES SD).

Should I just call you uncle T?


Not trying to hijack or start any type of shit, but you adding race implications to 75% of what you post anymore is beyond old and flat out trash.

You should just disappear.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:38 am

It's not racism, it's pretending like RG3 is Vick or JOSH FUCKING HARRIS (WHICH MISTERO SAID BEFORE RG3 PLAYED HIS LAST TWO GAMES).

Talking like he is Vince Young is beyond stupid. They guy is a pocket passer first and foremost.

Have you watched him play?

And when is the last time you added anything to anything? Want to talk about just needing to disappear......
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:47 am

My apologies, my prior post had a margin of error of 15%.

But yeah you're right, RG is a solidified passer and not a college version of Vick or VY. Why not just say that, or drop a ::doh:: for what you see as such an inaccurate assessment of the guy.

Just curious you ever meet mistero in person?

There were zero reasons to even mention the color of RG3s skin, but yet you did, like old faithful.
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Re: QB lottery

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:49 am

Only mentioned the color of his skin because mistero has only grouped him with QBs that have the same skin color.

That combined with the amazing wrongness of his statement leaves me only one conclusion.

HE COMPARED HIM TO JOSH HARRIS DO YOU NOT SEE THIS AS WEIRD?
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