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Sizemore's knee and the future

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Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:10 pm

Shelved for the remaining few games with a sore knee.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... grady.html

If they exercise that option, they're idiots.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby 1Perry » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:05 pm

If they exercise that option, they're idiots.


:thumb up:
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:59 pm

1Perry wrote:
If they exercise that option, they're idiots.


:thumb up:



I dont know. I think Grady has earned it ( the $9 million ). I mean he was giving them incredible production at a discount rate for the 1st three years. So it would kinda even out. I didnt hear anybody clamoring to pay him more when he was making peanuts. I personally think he deserves the money, and it would be a very classy, high character and stand up move to excerise it.


We as fans, owners, and GM's always want or at least somewhere deep inside we hope the players will give us hometown discounts and do us a favor as fans and an organization by sacrificing millions and stand by us. But then the 1st chance we have as fans and an organization to stand by a player and do the same for them we dont?


That being said it would be financial stupidty to excerise it in our market. You cant run a team on emotional ties. However they do need to figure out something though because they have no outfielders ready to go. I for one am not excited about an outfield that could have either Trevor Crowe or Ezeqial Carrera manning CF on a routine basis.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:28 pm

The obvious answer is to decline the option and give him an incentive based contract with a low guarantee. No team in baseball is going to offer him more than that.

If Grady won't buy in and leaves, how about moving Brantley to center and putting Duncan in left. After the All-Star break this year Duncan is hitting .284/.933 with 7 HRs and 24 RBI in only 109 ABs. Project that to 545 ABs and you have 35 HRs and 120 RBI. That kind of production covers up a lot of shaky defense.

It's not like those numbers are inflated due to being spotted against lefties. Looking at the splits, Duncan is hitting right-handers much better than lefties.

I thought about a Duncan/Carerra platoon in left, but I'm not sold on Carerra. He hit .270 in July, .272 in August, and .200 in September. It looks to me like the pitchers have found the holes in his swing. He's a free swinger who will swing at anything close, and the pitchers are exploiting this.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:10 pm

Not to be totally cold-hearted, but Grady has earned around $18M the last three seasons to play a little over a full season's worth of games, and not even productively. I think, financially, he and the Tribe are pretty much even at this point.

Emotional ties are nice, and if you're the Yankees, you can keep a guy like Posada around for a year and not have it hurt the bottom line. Keeping Sizemore at $8Mish next year is something this team cannot afford to do. I'd rather have Coco Crisp than Sizemore at this point, which is a really painful thing to write.

That said, an incentive-laden deal would be worth a shot. As Prosecutor says, that's all he's going to get on the open market. Hell, all he might get at this point is a minor league deal with an invite to ST, that's how far he's slipped.

Bottom line, we cannot reply on Grady being a productive, healthy member of the team next year, and need to plan accordingly.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby bookelly » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:43 pm

If Grady's is till hurt he's gonna need to sign with a team earlier than later so he can get proper medical care. Sounds like he's gonna need surgery on his right knee, which will give him incentive to lock up with a team ASAP.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Bigfist » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:27 pm

I had originally argued that Grady's option should be picked up, but I have changed my mind. My initial thoughts, and still true, were that no one in the system was ready to take his spot. But geez...let's be honest..does anyone really expect him to be healthy next season? So even a guy like Carrera can give us the same production, at much less cost. I would offer Grady an incentive laden contract, although he may well decline that and test the market. There may be a team out there that is stupid enough to remember him from his glory days and sign him to a guaranteed contract. But Wisconsin Tribe Fan is right..he really has fallen off the face of the earth.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby noles1 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:39 pm

Is there a historical comp for Grady at this point?

This year was a critical year for Grady once he came back in May... and look what we "got" out of him.

You have to cut ties and see if he'll come back for a 2 yr. incentive-based with mutual or vested option for that 2nd year. If he balks then you move on. Frankly, who knows what Grady will do but I don't think we can afford to lose too much sleep over it.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:11 am

Prosecutor wrote:The obvious answer is to decline the option and give him an incentive based contract with a low guarantee. No team in baseball is going to offer him more than that.

If Grady won't buy in and leaves, how about moving Brantley to center and putting Duncan in left. After the All-Star break this year Duncan is hitting .284/.933 with 7 HRs and 24 RBI in only 109 ABs. Project that to 545 ABs and you have 35 HRs and 120 RBI. That kind of production covers up a lot of shaky defense.

It's not like those numbers are inflated due to being spotted against lefties. Looking at the splits, Duncan is hitting right-handers much better than lefties.

I thought about a Duncan/Carerra platoon in left, but I'm not sold on Carerra. He hit .270 in July, .272 in August, and .200 in September. It looks to me like the pitchers have found the holes in his swing. He's a free swinger who will swing at anything close, and the pitchers are exploiting this.


Not sure what the best way to weigh things is, but I think the previous ten years that Shelly Duncan has blown, probably is a better indicator of the future than his post all-star break numbers this year.

If Shelly Duncan is a starting member of your squad, you are in big trouble. Actually, it ain't a great sign if he's even on the team.

And Wiscy is spot on, you exercise that option and you are morons. Period.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:15 am

Prosecutor wrote:The obvious answer is to decline the option and give him an incentive based contract with a low guarantee. No team in baseball is going to offer him more than that.

If Grady won't buy in and leaves, how about moving Brantley to center and putting Duncan in left. After the All-Star break this year Duncan is hitting .284/.933 with 7 HRs and 24 RBI in only 109 ABs. Project that to 545 ABs and you have 35 HRs and 120 RBI. That kind of production covers up a lot of shaky defense.

It's not like those numbers are inflated due to being spotted against lefties. Looking at the splits, Duncan is hitting right-handers much better than lefties.

I thought about a Duncan/Carerra platoon in left, but I'm not sold on Carerra. He hit .270 in July, .272 in August, and .200 in September. It looks to me like the pitchers have found the holes in his swing. He's a free swinger who will swing at anything close, and the pitchers are exploiting this.


Come on...are you really suggesting that Duncan would go for 35/120 if only given a chance? There's a reason he never had more than 75 AB in a season going into 2010. I mean, he's a good guy in the clubhouse and all, and I suppose you can do worse if he's your 5th OF, but be realistic. Selectively taking 109 AB's in the 2nd half of a season including Sept AB against minor leaguers from teams out of the race from a 31-year old's career and projecting that to 545 AB is nuts.

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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:28 am

gotribe31 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:The obvious answer is to decline the option and give him an incentive based contract with a low guarantee. No team in baseball is going to offer him more than that.

If Grady won't buy in and leaves, how about moving Brantley to center and putting Duncan in left. After the All-Star break this year Duncan is hitting .284/.933 with 7 HRs and 24 RBI in only 109 ABs. Project that to 545 ABs and you have 35 HRs and 120 RBI. That kind of production covers up a lot of shaky defense.

It's not like those numbers are inflated due to being spotted against lefties. Looking at the splits, Duncan is hitting right-handers much better than lefties.

I thought about a Duncan/Carerra platoon in left, but I'm not sold on Carerra. He hit .270 in July, .272 in August, and .200 in September. It looks to me like the pitchers have found the holes in his swing. He's a free swinger who will swing at anything close, and the pitchers are exploiting this.


Come on...are you really suggesting that Duncan would go for 35/120 if only given a chance? There's a reason he never had more than 75 AB in a season going into 2010. I mean, he's a good guy in the clubhouse and all, and I suppose you can do worse if he's your 5th OF, but be realistic. Selectively taking 109 AB's in the 2nd half of a season including Sept AB against minor leaguers from teams out of the race from a 31-year old's career and projecting that to 545 AB is nuts.

As Pauly C pointed out, remember Karim Garcia?


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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby swerb » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:30 am

Maybe one of the greatest Prosecutor posts of all time. Projecting Shelley F. Duncan out to 35/120.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:32 am

swerb wrote:Maybe one of the greatest Prosecutor posts of all time. Projecting Shelley F. Duncan out to 35/120.


At least he's not sold on Carrera. :hide:
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby swerb » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:34 am

Could live in infamy with the Macphisto playing flag football with Mitt Romney post.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:38 pm

noles1 wrote:Is there a historical comp for Grady at this point?


I put him in the Darin Erstad category when he signed with the White Sox and the Magglio Ordonez signing with the Tigers.

One didn't work out. One worked out very well. I could see Sizemore being out of baseball in three years and I could just as easily see him revive his career in Seattle -- near his home, gets healthy, starts hitting 30 bombs a year as a left fielder.

I just don't think the Indians can use up a fifth of their payroll on a complete question mark. Especially when another fifth of the payroll is going to China Doll Hafner.

Not bringing back Sizemore and Carmona are high-risk moves but moves that could revitalize the franchise economically. That'd be like adding 18 million dollars to the payroll for two players who may not do anything for you next season anyways.

If I'm Antonetti and I'm going all in...I take the money and see if I can get three or four free agents to shore up those spots instead of that head case Carmona and that walking game of Operation -- Sizemore.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby googleeph2 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:01 pm

I think it was Paul C - or maybe Nino C - who wrote a piece which included speculation that the Indians might decline the option, but guarantee an equal amt over 3yrs and pad that with an incentive layer.

Makes sense to me. Both sides are protected, and he does have attendance/merchandise value still- no?
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:39 am

swerb wrote:Could live in infamy with the Macphisto playing flag football with Mitt Romney post.


But still not quite to the Dave suggesting Adam Miller cut off his middle finger to help his pitching career post.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby rigs » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:31 am

how about taking whatever amount you want to pay him...$9m over one year, $9m over three years, $3m, $50 dollars....whatever... and give it to someone who will actually play?
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:36 pm

Seems as if Grady's got a lot of suitors. Funny thing is, if we'd have picked up his option and tried to trade him, none of these teams would have been interested, probably saying acquiring him would be 'too risky'.

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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby cozmeesah » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:12 pm

--
Last edited by cozmeesah on Mon May 21, 2012 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:41 pm

According to Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com, the Indians and Grady Sizemore are having "serious discussions" about a one-year contract.
One source pegs the chances of a reunion at "70-30" while another tells Rosenthal that it's "very likely." The Indians declined Sizemore's $9 million club option late last month, so they would presumably attempt to work out a deal for lesser salary. The 29-year-old is drawing plenty of interest around the league, but it might be the best career move to stick with the organization that knows him (and his knees) best and attempt to hit the free agent market again next offseason.

Go tthis from Rotoworld.


I would love for this to happen. I have always been a huge Sizemore fan and I hope to see him in an Indians uni for at least one more year.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:06 pm

Contract should be contingent on a minimum of 300 AB. If he doesn't get that, he gets zero money.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby cozmeesah » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:55 pm

--
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:49 am

I guess this says a lot about the trade market for outfielders and how much the free agent options want. I would definitely rather take a chance on Sizemore than a Marlon Byrd or trade more quality prospects for a 1 year lazy rental player like Upton.

If you are gonna take 5 or 6 million and gamble on a player you might as well do it on the one that you know and the one that has the highest upside. This must be their thinking.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:51 am

cozmeesah wrote:I was not expecting this at all. There really hasn't even been any time for teams to bid on him.



I don't think he ever really wanted to leave........unless somebody was going throw a boat load of money at him. To me it always made more sense to try to rebuild his value here.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:53 am

skatingtripods wrote:Contract should be contingent on a minimum of 300 AB. If he doesn't get that, he gets zero money.



also half of those AB's cant end in strikeouts or no money..........He will never get paid. ::doh::
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:17 am

I think I read that some of the other teams were interested in him as a left fielder. I'm sure he wants to stay in center, much like Peralta wanted to stay at SS. He can do that with the Indians, and also DH from time to time in order to give his knees a break since Hafner can't play every day.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:37 am

hoynsie paul hoynes

#Indians, Grady Sizemore seem close to deal. is.gd/FdTl2N
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby cozmeesah » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:45 pm

--
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby bookelly » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:09 am

cozmeesah wrote:Buster Olney on his Insider blog today:

n all likelihood, a lot of teams were probably offering him a salary very similar to what the Indians had offered.

So it makes sense that Sizemore would go back to a team where he is well-known, where he has a good relationship and comfort level with what is regarded as arguably baseball’s best medical staff, where he knows he will get at-bats. He owns a condo in Cleveland, and he knows the Indians have a shot to win next year. Friends say Sizemore also feels a little like he owes the Indians something because of his recent physical problems.


How nice is that to see for once?


This is quite nice too see yes.

I still want Cespedes though.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:06 am

bookelly wrote:
cozmeesah wrote:Buster Olney on his Insider blog today:

n all likelihood, a lot of teams were probably offering him a salary very similar to what the Indians had offered.

So it makes sense that Sizemore would go back to a team where he is well-known, where he has a good relationship and comfort level with what is regarded as arguably baseball’s best medical staff, where he knows he will get at-bats. He owns a condo in Cleveland, and he knows the Indians have a shot to win next year. Friends say Sizemore also feels a little like he owes the Indians something because of his recent physical problems.


How nice is that to see for once?


This is quite nice too see yes.

I still want Cespedes though.


Me too. It's nice to have Grady back--he is one of my favorite players of the past 15-20 years--but with his option not being picked up, it was a chance for the Indians to make a real impact move at the position most in need of an impact move, even more so than first base, since Santana will spend at least a decent amount of time there. And while it's hard to accurately predict what a guy like Cespedes can really do, acquiring him would have been intriguing, and not even that cost-prohibitive. Barring any unforeseen moves, our outfield now looks to be set--Grady, Choo, and Brantley. Not exactly awe-inspiring, based on the last couple of seasons. Wishing Grady well, but I think the Indians went with a "safe" PR direction rather than a move designed to impact us this year and beyond. After all, what happens now after THIS season? Either way, Grady's probably gone for good and we're right back here with a gaping hole and a closing window.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby andrew6586 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:37 pm

Don't want to gloat but I had this one right. I knew the Tribe would try to bring him back. I'm glad they did.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby MOSER » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:30 pm

Is this a done deal?
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby cozmeesah » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:42 pm

--
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby ChoccoIndians » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:56 pm

I think its played out really well (Once signed), it was too much to take the option, he made sure he is getting what he is worth, then he re signs. Very smooth proceedings considering the modern enviroment with contracts.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:04 am

Guy's played in just over 200 combined games in the last 3 seasons with an OPS that never reaches .790

He's also struck out in 25% of his ABs in that time. He no longer runs the bases and every time he slides you hold your breath. His range is reduced and his inability to throw pre-dates his inability to stay on the field by, umm, forever.

Excellent. Can't wait for the Human Eggshell to be back doing what he does.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:54 am

If he had been able to train for the duration of this offseason, I'd be more excited, but I don't even think he's healed from the arthroscopic procedure he had done near the end of the year.

It's a lottery ticket for the Indians. Unfortunately, it'll be like every other scratch-off where two dollar amounts match and the other two are nowhere close. He'll show signs like he always does and then invariably crumble to the ground in a heap of pain and we'll be watching a team who failed to account for the likelihood of an injury.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:27 am

In the meantime, it will be easier for a dad with teenaged girls (like myself) to keep up the family interest in the team through the spring. I don't see the downside, since he's not holding a roster spot which otherwise would have been taken by a promising young guy or a key FA.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby cozmeesah » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:32 am

--
Last edited by cozmeesah on Mon May 21, 2012 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:43 am

cozmeesah wrote:They said 6-8 weeks out, 8 weeks will be this coming Monday. His agent said he's been training (not baseball activities obviously) everyday. But they don't usually start hitting and such until late November anyway. I remember Grady saying before that his normal offseason consisted of doing nothing in October, then starting to work out in November. So he's not that much behind, plus he's been working out ever since the surgery.


He should have accelerated his training and I would hope he's been standing in the cage watching pitches go by while he couldn't do anything. He has to improve his plate discipline again. He'd be alright hitting .245 if he was going to have a OBP of .330 again, so long as part of that .245 included 2Bs and HRs.

If he's 75% of the player he used to be, I'll be shocked.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:16 pm

Back for $5 mil base salary and $4 mil in incentives, according to Buster Olney.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:28 pm

Christ, that's way too much.

So, 10M of our offseason budget to Lowe + Sizemore. Probably another 15-20M in arbitration raises. Where does the money come from to get a 1B worth a damn?

I'd have much rather gone 3.5M base, incentives at 350 PA. I'm sure his agent wouldn't have taken that, though.

Should be a clause that if he's under 300 PA, he gets nothing.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby cozmeesah » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:32 pm

Incentives don't kick in until he reaches 450 PA. Will earn $500,000 extra if named Comeback POTY.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby pup » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:04 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Back for $5 mil base salary and $4 mil in incentives, according to Buster Olney.


:thud:
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:26 pm

In reference to my comments in the other thread about ciphers....

You'd better count Grady as an extra outfielder, and still pursue some others, cause if you count him as a starter you very well may have to endure 600 plate appearances from Trevor Crowe, Carrera or some other total hump.

And you're already playing this "cipher for starter" game with Hafner.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Bigfist » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:11 pm

I realize it is only November, but I sure hope Antonetti has another trick or two up his sleeve, because ten million on Grady and Lowe doesn't exactly inspire me to get ready for the 2012 playoffs.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:51 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Back for $5 mil base salary and $4 mil in incentives, according to Buster Olney.



5 million is a little more than I would have liked but its definitely cheaper than the other options.


Like some of the sentiment echoed above, they better have some other stuff in the works
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:47 am

i wonder what the offers were from the other teams if he got any. I am happy SIzemore is back and a player actually wanted to come back to Cleveland and help this team even if it is just for one more year. I think if the Yanks or Red Sox signed him to this deal how many people would be like the Indians could have given him that much and I would have been ok with it?

Sizemore is a high character guy and not some punk, He gives his all every time he steps on the field and that is why he had the injuries he had over the past couple years is because he plays so hard. I can live with that instead of him being like Milton Bradley or some other fool who wastes his talents.

Lets not forget this guy had played in 382 consecutive games. Most of the time probably playing with an injury that would have had a different guy sitting on the bench taking it easy and just collecting a pay check.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:37 pm

Cleveland Matt wrote:Lets not forget this guy had played in 382 consecutive games


While that's all well and good, let's also not forget that he hasn't played in 382 games combined over the last four seasons.
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Re: Sizemore's knee and the future

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:46 pm

agreed i know this is a what have you done for me lately type of world. I don't think Sizemore will every reach 20sb again but I think the power is still there and he won't hit for high average but I think he can be a guy in the middle of the order that can produce still.

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Choo
Hafner
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Sizemore
mix is whoever is playing 1B and C that day with Hannahan/Chisenhall to round out the lineup for the last 3 spots in the order
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